Lavine ranking amongst SGs

MGB · Post #1 » by **MGB** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:10 am

I have been hard on Lavine over the years but admit his improvements have been quite impressive . This exercise is to figure out where he stacks today among all NBA shooting guards.

Harden
Brown
Butler
Beal
McCollum
Mitchell
SGA
George
Booker
Klay

I’m sure I’m forgetting some guys but where does Lavine stack up today?

Bullflip · Post #2 » by **Bullflip** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:46 am

He probably at same level as Booker. I have Lavine as probably the 4th or 5th best SG

PlayerUp · Post #3 » by **PlayerUp** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:48 am

We essentially have 3 players in the Top 40 in the NBA but nobody in the Top 20 among all NBA players.

DeRozan, Vucevic, Lavine are around 7th overall in the NBA at their positions.

Jcool0 · Post #4 » by **Jcool0** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:10 am

1. Harden

2. Thompson

3. Lavine

prolific passer · Post #5 » by **prolific passer** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:34 am

Interesting. Where so you think Jordan stacked up at the SG spot during his playing days?
:eyebrows:

Post #6 » by **HomoSapien** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:20 am

If LaVine can get in the right situation, I believe the difference between him, Beal, and Booker is negligible. If the Bulls are a playoff team, LaVine's stock and reputation is seriously going to rise next year.

Jvaughn · Post #7 » by **Jvaughn** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:21 am

HomoSapien wrote:If LaVine can get in the right situation, I believe the difference between him, Beal, and Booker is negligible. If the Bulls are a playoff team, LaVine's stock and reputation is seriously going to rise next year.

This is kind of how I've felt for the last year. Beal is probably the most well rounded. Booker is the best shooter (although Lavine trumped him there last year). And Zach is the most explosive in terms of athleticism as well as being able to score in bunches.

As far as the other names, Harden is at the top. Hard to say where Klay is now as he's been away from the game for a prolonged period and we don't know what type of player he'll be when he returns. But I'd put Zach in the top 5 with room to grow. Of the other names that were mentioned, I don't think any of them are clearly better than Zach.

Post #8 » by **kulaz3000** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:20 am

HomoSapien wrote:If LaVine can get in the right situation, I believe the difference between him, Beal, and Booker is negligible. If the Bulls are a playoff team, LaVine's stock and reputation is seriously going to rise next year.

Absolutely.

I mean, what is Booker better than LaVine at exactly? Yeah he has had big scoring nights, but for the majority of his career, like Zach he has been a career loser, but ONE season.

That said, playoff reputation matters, and the hope is that Zach can get himself that experience himself this season and build on his reputation around the league only further.

mack2354 · Post #9 » by **mack2354** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:17 am

I'd say Harden (excellent Offense) and Butler (great impact on O and D) I would rank higher than Lavine. I think arguments can be made for for Lavine being anywhere from 3rd to 7th. Lavine and the rest of those guys ranking really gets skewed based off of health and what teammates they play with. This team is by far the best team Zach has played on with the Wolves/Bulls so I'm expecting him to thrive and be perceived way better than ppl have in the past.

RSP83 · Post #10 » by **RSP83** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:56 am

Zach's combo of elite athleticism and elite shooting actually does not have many rivals. He's clearly the most athletic of the bunch, while also being pretty close to them in terms of shooting ability. In order for him to to comfortably crack the top 3, IMO he needs to:

- Improve defensively, during the olympics he's shown us that he can play solid D when he's committed. With DD on the team I'm hoping he can save some of his energy on offense to focus more on defense. I don't think Zach needs to br Jimmy level defender to be recognized as top 3 2-guards in the league.

- Improve his playmaking and decision making. This is still the part where I still don't know if Zach still has a next gear. Zach is pretty good when it comes to creating for himself, because he's just such an elite scorer. But I'm still not sold on him as a facilitator. The good news is this can be learned and DeRozan is the perfect guy to show him that. DD also was not a facilitator early in his career, and I never thought he'd be where he is today.

- Get to the FT line more. This is going to make his scoring even more efficient and will definitely impact the team in W column.

If he can solve these 3 things, seriously who cares if he can't defend opponents like Jimmy or SGA or PG. He'd probably be close to being the Holy Grail of 2-guards in the modern NBA, which makes it probably unlikely. A guy who can jump out of the gym like Vince, go to the line a ton and set up teammate like Harden, shoot 3 efficiently like Klay, and a neutral player on D.

Wonderboy12 · Post #11 » by **Wonderboy12** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:59 am

Lavine is finally going to have a competent pg this year. People don’t understand how bad Sato is. That guy was probably the worst point guard in the entire league last year and he was starting. Defenses literally ignored him.

sco · Post #12 » by **sco** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:42 pm

I think positional arguments are tough because roles are so distributed. IMO Harden is the PG for BKN. Jimmy is the combo PG/SF for MIA.

With guys like Zach, it's got to be about where is he among the best in the league across all players. For us to contend, he'll need to enter into that top 10 argument this season.

MGB8 · Post #13 » by **MGB8** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:29 pm

It's very hard to rank players "in order" since there's tons of subjectivity - to include about the importance of certain objective measures (and contextual impacts).

I view players in tiers - and right now I think there's only 1 "tier 1" SG in the NBA - Harden.

Butler and George I view as SFs, along with Jaylen Brown and Tatum (both), Kawhi, Middleton, RJ Barrett, etc.

As for LaVine, I think he's firmly in the 2nd tier of SGs with Mitchell, Beal, Booker, Anthony Edwards (ok, a little early for him, but I expect him there this season) and SGA (who might be a PG). Edit: Klay, if healthy, is a harder call in terms of potentially being "first tier" (for combination of scoring ability and defense).

I actually don't view CJ McCullom as a 2nd tier SG - or at least, not fully - more borderline 2nd/3rd. Would be better at PG, IMO, as well. Ditto Sexton - don't view him as a SG, either.

kodo · Post #14 » by **kodo** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:42 pm

Jimmy Butler didn't even make the All-Star team, I have a hard time recognizing him as a top 2 player at his position. If it was fan voting that would be one thing, but players and coaches also vote.

Andi Obst · Post #15 » by **Andi Obst** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:47 pm

kodo wrote:Jimmy Butler didn't even make the All-Star team, I have a hard time recognizing him as a top 2 player at his position. If it was fan voting that would be one thing, but players and coaches also vote.

That was mostly due the lack of games he played pre-ASB, though.

I'd just not rank Jimmy (or PG, for that matter) as a guard. Harden is clearly number one, but after that it's pretty open to me.

ATRAIN53 · Post #16 » by **ATRAIN53** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:01 pm

from your list - playoff Donovan Mitchell is the Gold Standard there and he's close to 30 PPG in the playoffs.
like better numbers than KOBE. He's $$$ in the playoffs.

We've never seen Playoff Lavine so I could not tell you where he ranks.

Playoff Booker looked pretty good but he did falter down the stretch

Klay is Klay but he has Steph so it's not fair.

Playoff Harden is a notorious choker in BIG Moments. Seems to becomes a better defender when the game gets tight instead of making his signature baskets.

I think playoff Lavine is pretty good but he's gonna need to be real crafty to take it tot he hole vs beasts like Giannas and Embiid.
He small and sorta slight - but he can do it, but can he do it 45 min a night over a series.....

Donovan Mitchell has some beef and knows how to get down there and make buckets + he can shoot from distance.

cool007 · Post #17 » by **cool007** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:28 pm

Tier 1: James Harden
Tier 2: Lavine, Beal, Booker, Mitchell (inter exchangeable, team record same)

I would take only Harden ahead of him.

iqureshi · Post #18 » by **iqureshi** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:47 pm

On shooting/athleticism ratio he's number 1. No better athlete who can shoot like that. HIs and brown probably the best 2 athletes, but i'd give zach's offense a bit better. Zach's problem is he hasn't won a thing, and he's not great/good at playmaking. Those two factors bring him down to 7 ish, compared to others who have had playoff success. One good playoff run, and some falling off of butler/klay/harden from age/injury/lower usage rate, he could jump up to a top 3/4 sg.

FriedRise · Post #19 » by **FriedRise** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:38 pm

Crazy to me that from that list, Zach is the only one who's never been to the playoffs.

I hope ESPN or other media publishes a similar ranking somewhere. We need more bulletin board materials for all our chip-on-the-shoulder players.

pipfan · Post #20 » by **pipfan** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:40 pm

Cooloo7 has it right
Harden on his own
Lavine, Booker, Mitchell, Beal all on the same tier