Who was the best player in 2007

[cupcakesnake]

Duncan should have been DPOY that year (over Marcus Camby). He randomly split votes with Bowen, and Camby got a some deserved hype that year for putting up huge block numbers and anchoring a surprisingly okay Denver Nuggets defense (with help from Nene). Camby was sort of filling the Ben Wallace mold that year in terms of being the big-block/rebound guy and I think that helped his case after 4x DPOY from Wallace. But Duncan was fully flexing all year as a defensive savant. The Spurs were an awesome defense that year and completely built around Duncan's dominant work on the back line and the nail.

I think that's where Duncan's case starts, and it continues with a dominant playoff run by a Spurs team that felt so perfectly built around Duncan's brilliant 2-way play. Duncan's career is a gradient that begins with him as an offensive anchor and ends as a defensive anchor, and 2007 is the perfect middle point/peak where he was making the biggest impact at both ends. He was ceding a lot of early offense to Parker, and his minutes were down, but 2007 is also the career high in TS% and free throw rate. It's also the year Duncan switches to playing primarily center (Oberto and Horry were his primary big counterparts).

I see super legit cases for Dirk, Kobe, Nash, and Lebron. Nash put up insane numbers (leading the NBA in TS% and assists per game and so clearly being the best shooter and best passer at the same time) and the Suns won 61 games. Dirk was the offensive dominant MVP and the Mavs won 67(!?) Kobe finished his purgatory in style, averaging 30+ and dragging the Smush Parker era Lakers into the playoff again. Kobe was in his absolute athletic prime, just ripping out teams throats every night with epic scoring binges. Lebron busted through the old guard of the East, kindly letting the Bad Boys II and Jason Kidd that their contender window had shut. It was becoming quite clear for a couple years at this point that Lebron was the biggest talent in the NBA.

But I think Duncan kind of wins this year. I rooted so hard against the Spurs back then (Nash fan), and Duncan just felt like a dark monolith that was impossible to overcome. He was so good offensively and defensively, in a way none of the other MVP candidates were.

[Blazers-1977]

Question: Was Duncan "clearly" the best player in the league during the rest of the season, until the Spurs cheated the Suns and then went on to win a title they should not have won? If you say yes, then I just won't be able to take you seriously any longer...

Yes

I'd been wondering where all the Timmy-loving myths came from on this forum. Now I know. You are the source... and the biggest pusher of so many untruths, stretches of imagination, and mental gymnastics related to dear ole Timmy.

Tim Duncan was never in the conversation for best player in the league from 2005-06 onward. Most certainly not in 2006-07. The best players in the league from 2005-06 onward were Kobe, Dirk, Lebron... with Nash, D-Wade in the mix for a bit. Timmy slipped and fell into the group just below with Amare, KG, Pierce, Melo and others. Then once Lebron got going, it was really only Kobe and Dirk who could keep up. Not only that, but Tony Parker won the Finals MVP in 2006-07. Imagine that!! if Kobe had won a title with Pau winning Finals MVP... I shudder to think of how you'd use that against Kobe in your quest to prop your beloved Timmy dearest over him, lol.

In the Hakeem vs Duncan thread, you tried suggesting that Timmy had the same or better level of offense/defense... and that Timmy even had a better face-up game, lol. You've also tried suggesting that Magic was an equivalent "shooter" to Kobe. The icing on the cake has been your post in the "lowest ranking for Kobe" thread, where you try to suggest that "Magic's Lakers in 1988-1991 had a less talented supporting cast than any team Kobe had after Shaq left". I can't even imagine trying to compare a team with James Worthy, AC Green, Mychal Thompson, etc to Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, etc... never mind even reaching the conclusion that Magic had the less talented supporting cast, hahaha!

If you actually believe all these things, then it makes sense why you rate Tim Duncan over Kobe Bryant in the Top 10 All-time list... lol... but unfortunately for you, all these things just aren't true.

It's just not realgm that has Duncan>Kobe, ESPN's ranking does as well

[LAL1947]

It's just not realgm that has Duncan>Kobe, ESPN's ranking does as well

Well, the rest of the world and most players disagree.

AFAIC, this question is not "who should be voted best player in 2006-07 retroactively, when looking back and seeing that the Spurs ended up winning the title". It is just simply "who was the best player in the league that year" and should accurately reflect who was at the top of their game. The best player overall was clearly Kobe, doing spectacular things on both sides of the ball... while Dirk had a case with a very impactful regular season on the Mavericks, leading them to the best record in the NBA by a large margin (6 wins more than the Suns, 9 wins more than the Spurs)... but since Nash was a play-maker who impacted the overall offense of his team to a great extent and who should have also led his team to the title (but was robbed)... I'll give Nash his due by saying this was the one year where he truly had a case for Best Player in the World.

Also, when I look back at that post of mine you just quoted, I think I should have added another important point while talking about Tony Parker winning the Finals MVP that season. The gap between Timmy and Parker/Ginobli as players, was less than the gap between Kobe and Pau/Odom... partly because Parker/Manu were better than Gasol/Odom, and partly because Kobe was better than Duncan. The Spurs won this title (2006-07) after robbing the Suns... anyway, leaving this title aside, what were the Spurs able to do compared to the Lakers from this point on, once Kobe finally got a decent crew again? Nothing, until they got Kawhi, because Timmy was just not among the top 3-5 best players in the world from 2005-06 onward.

2007-08: Lost in the WC finals to the Lakers 1-4. (Lakers reach NBA finals)
2008-09: Lost in the 1st round to the Mavs 1-4. (Lakers win NBA title)
2009-10: Lost in the 2nd round to the Suns 0-4. (Lakers win NBA title)

It's also why Duncan and the other players listed here couldn't manage a repeat in the decade of 2000-2010, many great players (and great teams too), but not as great as the true best player in the league from 2002-03 to 2009-10, Kobe. Between 2000-02, it was Shaq and how(!), but we're not talking about him here.

This is my point of view and you may disagree with it, but I think the reasons I've given are fair and valid. Certainly a lot more valid than some of the "arguable" stuff that I see people here try to use against Kobe or in favor of Duncan. Have you noticed how they like to use "it is arguable"... and then follow it up with something preposterous? As if adding the "arguable" somehow gives it some validity, lol. For example, saying things like, "it is arguable that Magic was as good a shooter as Kobe"... or "it is arguable that Dwayne Wade is the second greatest SG after Mike"... or "it is arguable that 1988-90 Lakers were not less talented than Kobe's teams"... or "it is arguable that Duncan/Wade/Dirk had a higher peak than Kobe". All of it is just hogwash. In this manner, they argue away many aspects of Kobe's brilliance, leaving behind something that can then be compared to lesser players, and then call the lesser players better using accolades (like MVPs).

Anyway, I appreciate the conversation. Cheers!

[Proxy]

I'd go with Duncan somewhat comfortably, KG, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, Nash, and Bron right after

[ceiling raiser]

The gap between Timmy and Parker/Ginobli as players, was less than the gap between Kobe and Pau/Odom... partly because Parker/Manu were better than Gasol/Odom, and partly because Kobe was better than Duncan.

Manu is better than Odom, no doubt, and was probably better than Gasol at his best.

Parker however was not better than Gasol. Gasol was arguably a top 10 player in the league, and probably the fifth best big from 08-10 behind Dwight, Timmy, KG and Dirk. Parker was never close to top 10 in the league, and probably was never top 5 in his position for a single season.

[Narigo]

The gap between Timmy and Parker/Ginobli as players, was less than the gap between Kobe and Pau/Odom... partly because Parker/Manu were better than Gasol/Odom, and partly because Kobe was better than Duncan.

Manu is better than Odom, no doubt, and was probably better than Gasol at his best.

Parker however was not better than Gasol. Gasol was arguably a top 10 player in the league, and probably the fifth best big from 08-10 behind Dwight, Timmy, KG and Dirk. Parker was never close to top 10 in the league, and probably was never top 5 in his position for a single season.

Idk.I think Parker was arguably a top 10 player in 2013. And he was defintely a top 5 PG that year

[HeartBreakKid]

It's just not realgm that has Duncan>Kobe, ESPN's ranking does as well

Well, the rest of the world and most players disagree.

AFAIC, this question is not "who should be voted best player in 2006-07 retroactively, when looking back and seeing that the Spurs ended up winning the title". It is just simply "who was the best player in the league that year" and should accurately reflect who was at the top of their game. The best player overall was clearly Kobe, doing spectacular things on both sides of the ball... while Dirk had a case with a very impactful regular season on the Mavericks, leading them to the best record in the NBA by a large margin (6 wins more than the Suns, 9 wins more than the Spurs)... but since Nash was a play-maker who impacted the overall offense of his team to a great extent and who should have also led his team to the title (but was robbed)... I'll give Nash his due by saying this was the one year where he truly had a case for Best Player in the World.

Also, when I look back at that post of mine you just quoted, I think I should have added another important point while talking about Tony Parker winning the Finals MVP that season. The gap between Timmy and Parker/Ginobli as players, was less than the gap between Kobe and Pau/Odom... partly because Parker/Manu were better than Gasol/Odom, and partly because Kobe was better than Duncan. The Spurs won this title (2006-07) after robbing the Suns... anyway, leaving this title aside, what were the Spurs able to do compared to the Lakers from this point on, once Kobe finally got a decent crew again? Nothing, until they got Kawhi, because Timmy was just not among the top 3-5 best players in the world from 2005-06 onward.

2007-08: Lost in the WC finals to the Lakers 1-4. (Lakers reach NBA finals)
2008-09: Lost in the 1st round to the Mavs 1-4. (Lakers win NBA title)
2009-10: Lost in the 2nd round to the Suns 0-4. (Lakers win NBA title)

It's also why Duncan and the other players listed here couldn't manage a repeat in the decade of 2000-2010, many great players (and great teams too), but not as great as the true best player in the league from 2002-03 to 2009-10, Kobe. Between 2000-02, it was Shaq and how(!), but we're not talking about him here.

This is my point of view and you may disagree with it, but I think the reasons I've given are fair and valid. Certainly a lot more valid than some of the "arguable" stuff that I see people here try to use against Kobe or in favor of Duncan. Have you noticed how they like to use "it is arguable"... and then follow it up with something preposterous? As if adding the "arguable" somehow gives it some validity, lol. For example, saying things like, "it is arguable that Magic was as good a shooter as Kobe"... or "it is arguable that Dwayne Wade is the second greatest SG after Mike"... or "it is arguable that 1988-90 Lakers were not less talented than Kobe's teams"... or "it is arguable that Duncan/Wade/Dirk had a higher peak than Kobe". All of it is just hogwash. In this manner, they argue away many aspects of Kobe's brilliance, leaving behind something that can then be compared to lesser players, and then call the lesser players better using accolades (like MVPs).

Anyway, I appreciate the conversation. Cheers!

All you did was listed what their teams did good in their playoffs - you didn't say a single thing here about what Duncan or Bryant did as individuals. You're also citing a time when Tim Duncan was past his prime.

If you can't actually explain why one player is better than another, then that's probably a problem.

[Stalwart]

The gap between Timmy and Parker/Ginobli as players, was less than the gap between Kobe and Pau/Odom... partly because Parker/Manu were better than Gasol/Odom, and partly because Kobe was better than Duncan.

Manu is better than Odom, no doubt, and was probably better than Gasol at his best.

Parker however was not better than Gasol. Gasol was arguably a top 10 player in the league, and probably the fifth best big from 08-10 behind Dwight, Timmy, KG and Dirk. Parker was never close to top 10 in the league, and probably was never top 5 in his position for a single season.

Pau was never an "arguable" top 10 player in the league

[ceiling raiser]

Pau was never an "arguable" top 10 player in the league

He was All-NBA 4x when PF was deep.

[Eagle4]

Wade until he got injured.
He was averaging 29ppg 8 apg 5rpg on 50% shooting with his usual solid defense, no one was matching that. It was precursor to his 09 campaign. He was slightly quicker and more explosive in 07 but was stronger, smarter and abetter shooter in '09.

[HeartBreakKid]

Manu is better than Odom, no doubt, and was probably better than Gasol at his best.

Parker however was not better than Gasol. Gasol was arguably a top 10 player in the league, and probably the fifth best big from 08-10 behind Dwight, Timmy, KG and Dirk. Parker was never close to top 10 in the league, and probably was never top 5 in his position for a single season.

Pau was never an "arguable" top 10 player in the league

Your memory isn't very good then.

[LAL1947]

Manu is better than Odom, no doubt, and was probably better than Gasol at his best.

Parker however was not better than Gasol. Gasol was arguably a top 10 player in the league, and probably the fifth best big from 08-10 behind Dwight, Timmy, KG and Dirk. Parker was never close to top 10 in the league, and probably was never top 5 in his position for a single season.

Pau was never an "arguable" top 10 player in the league

Your memory isn't very good then.

Your memory AND ability to add things up doesn't seem very good.

Ceiling Raiser says Pau was the 5th best big from 2007-08 onward then says Pau was a top 10 player. Even if I agreed that there were only 4 better Bigs (which I do not agree with as y'all are forgetting Amar'e Stoudamire, Yao Ming, Kenyon Martin, Chris Bosh, Carlos Boozer)... are the two of you telling us there were only 5 guards AND wings in the whole league who were better than Pau?

4 Bigs + 5 Guards/Wings = 9 + Pau = 10?

What about Kobe, Lebron, Dwayne Wade, Steve Nash, Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce, Chauncey Billups, Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Andre Iguodala, Baron Davis, Ray Allen, Deron Williams, Brandon Roy... and of course, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli. That's 16 guards and wings right there. Add in all the Bigs who were better, and Pau moves back to #24-25

Kobe Bryant has elevated Pau Gasol into being what he is now considered... i.e., for you to call him one of the 10 best players in the league, when he was quite far from it. Give the man his deserved credit instead of trying to steal it away with these kind of arguments and give it to Duncan, KG, D-Wade, etc.

[feyki]

Dirk's over of 30 minutes games in the season:

27 PPG, 10 RPG, 3,7 APG, %61 TS, 124 Ortg.

Wade was also in ATG form before the injury. I'd say it's Dirk with Wade as close second and then Duncan and Nash.

[Texas Chuck]

Always disappointing when fans of a specific player feel the need to diminish one of his teammates thinking it elevates him. It never elevates him and just comes across as sad and desperate.

I'd go Duncan, Nash, Dirk as a clear top 3 and in that order. But its really close so if you support any of those 3 I wouldn't argue with you.

[falcolombardi]

Pau was never an "arguable" top 10 player in the league

Your memory isn't very good then.

Your memory AND ability to add things up doesn't seem very good.

Ceiling Raiser says Pau was the 5th best big from 2007-08 onward then says Pau was a top 10 player. Even if I agreed that there were only 4 better Bigs (which I do not agree with as y'all are forgetting Amar'e Stoudamire, Yao Ming, Kenyon Martin, Chris Bosh, Carlos Boozer)... are the two of you telling us there were only 5 guards AND wings in the whole league who were better than Pau?

4 Bigs + 5 Guards/Wings = 9 + Pau = 10?

What about Kobe, Lebron, Dwayne Wade, Steve Nash, Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce, Chauncey Billups, Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Andre Iguodala, Baron Davis, Ray Allen, Deron Williams, Brandon Roy... and of course, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli. That's 16 guards and wings right there. Add in all the Bigs who were better, and Pau moves back to #24-25

Kobe Bryant has elevated Pau Gasol into being what he is now considered... i.e., for you to call him one of the 10 best players in the league, when he was quite far from it. Give the man his deserved credit instead of trying to steal it away with these kind of arguments and give it to Duncan, KG, D-Wade, etc.

Carlos booker? really?

dont want to include nene Hilario too while you are at it?

[LAL1947]

Your memory isn't very good then.

Your memory AND ability to add things up doesn't seem very good.

Ceiling Raiser says Pau was the 5th best big from 2007-08 onward then says Pau was a top 10 player. Even if I agreed that there were only 4 better Bigs (which I do not agree with as y'all are forgetting Amar'e Stoudamire, Yao Ming, Kenyon Martin, Chris Bosh, Carlos Boozer)... are the two of you telling us there were only 5 guards AND wings in the whole league who were better than Pau?

4 Bigs + 5 Guards/Wings = 9 + Pau = 10?

What about Kobe, Lebron, Dwayne Wade, Steve Nash, Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce, Chauncey Billups, Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Andre Iguodala, Baron Davis, Ray Allen, Deron Williams, Brandon Roy... and of course, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli. That's 16 guards and wings right there. Add in all the Bigs who were better, and Pau moves back to #24-25.

Kobe Bryant has elevated Pau Gasol into being what he is now considered... i.e., for you to call him one of the 10 best players in the league, when he was quite far from it. Give the man his deserved credit instead of trying to steal it away with these kind of arguments and give it to Duncan, KG, D-Wade, etc.

Carlos booker? really?

dont want to include nene Hilario too while you are at it?

I named 23 other players. If the only one you have an issue with is Carlos Boozer... that's completely fine, let's remove him. So Pau Gasol goes from the 25th to 24th. We can remove others too, I simply threw a list out there. Yet the guys I was responding to said Pau Gasol was a Top 10 player in the league... which is still some way off!

[LAL1947]

Always disappointing when fans of a specific player feel the need to diminish one of his teammates thinking it elevates him. It never elevates him and just comes across as sad and desperate.

I'd go Duncan, Nash, Dirk as a clear top 3 and in that order. But its really close so if you support any of those 3 I wouldn't argue with you.

Please explain to me how I'm diminishing a team-mate. Duncan fans are trying to elevate him above Kobe using the reason of Gasol being a Top 10 player in the league. All I'm doing is ranking him appropriately according to that time... whereas many here are looking back retroactively and trying to argue, "Oh, Kobe won a title with him, so he must have been Top 10". You know exactly why they are doing it too, to make it seem like he had as much help as Duncan did... when he did not. And his team wasn't as Boston's either. Tony Parker/Paul Pierce or Pau Gasol on the Lakers in 2007-08? I know who I'd rather have.

[Texas Chuck]

Always disappointing when fans of a specific player feel the need to diminish one of his teammates thinking it elevates him. It never elevates him and just comes across as sad and desperate.

I'd go Duncan, Nash, Dirk as a clear top 3 and in that order. But its really close so if you support any of those 3 I wouldn't argue with you.

Please explain to me how I'm diminishing a team-mate. Duncan fans are trying to elevate him above Kobe using the reason of Gasol being a Top 10 player in the league.

Duncan fans are doing no such thing. People(not Duncan fans) are simply saying Duncan was a better player than Kobe in 07, and throughout their careers.

This isn't diminishing Kobe in any way. He was a fantastic player in 07 and for the bulk of his career. Almost nobody sees him outside the best dozen or so players of all time. This isn't zero sum. Duncan being great doesn't make Kobe not great. Just like Pau being great doesn't make Kobe not great.

You just are desperate to sell a narrative that Kobe was doing it alone from 08-10 and sorry but Pau was an enormous pat of those teams. Enormous. Doesn't make Kobe not great. There is a reason though the Lakers went from mediocre to the best team in the league and it wasn't internal growth from Kobe. It was adding Pau Gasol.

[HeartBreakKid]

No one is going to think that Kenyon Martin and Carlos Boozer was better than 2009. Even if you're going based off your typical "what people thought of the time argument" - no one thought that...and you're sure as heck aren't going to break their games down, because you haven't done that at all in any thread.

Pau Gasol was widely considered to be a top 10-15 player during that time. You said he's the 24th or 25th best player, and there are only 24 all-star spots. So you're saying peak Pau Gasol is a borderline all-star? I mean Andre Iguodala...? What?


Pau was a 19/10 guy with great passing and solid defense, who can shoot and play within a system. In 2009 and 2010 that was incredibly valuable. Amare Stoudimire was not a good passer and an all time bad defender - and that was when he was healthy, which you somehow forgot he wasn't always. Yao Ming was only better than Gasol in the seasons where he actually played, which weren't many. Kenyon Martin wasn't even in his prime during this period - and during his prime he wasn't as good of a scorer or passer as Pau Gasol. Martin was a player who's impact came from defense, but he was never someone who was going to be a defensive player of the year type.

Chris Bosh vs Pau Gasol was a huge debate back in that time...which somehow you forgot. My guess is you just didn't follow basketball much outside of Kobe Bryant and watching sportscenter (I bet you watched this). I bet you never even saw a Raptor game during that period because it wasn't on TV in your area.

You listed Paul Pierce and Ray Allen as better players but not Kevin Garnett, which almost infers that they are better players. Given your terrible criteria I would not be surprised that you thought that. But even if you had just forgotten Kevin Garnett, you're telling me the Celtics had three players better than Pau Gasol and still lost in 2010? Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

[LAL1947]

Always disappointing when fans of a specific player feel the need to diminish one of his teammates thinking it elevates him. It never elevates him and just comes across as sad and desperate.

I'd go Duncan, Nash, Dirk as a clear top 3 and in that order. But its really close so if you support any of those 3 I wouldn't argue with you.

Please explain to me how I'm diminishing a team-mate. Duncan fans are trying to elevate him above Kobe using the reason of Gasol being a Top 10 player in the league.

Duncan fans are doing no such thing. People(not Duncan fans) are simply saying Duncan was a better player than Kobe in 07, and throughout their careers.

This isn't diminishing Kobe in any way. He was a fantastic player in 07 and for the bulk of his career. Almost nobody sees him outside the best dozen or so players of all time. This isn't zero sum. Duncan being great doesn't make Kobe not great. Just like Pau being great doesn't make Kobe not great.

You just are desperate to sell a narrative that Kobe was doing it alone from 08-10 and sorry but Pau was an enormous pat of those teams. Enormous. Doesn't make Kobe not great. There is a reason though the Lakers went from mediocre to the best team in the league and it wasn't internal growth from Kobe. It was adding Pau Gasol.

Duncan wasn't better than Kobe in 2006-07 & I think people are resorting to desperate means to make a case that he is.

I'm not trying to say he did it alone. That's not what I'm trying to do at all, although my replies can sometimes get brought down to that level because of the type of replies that I have to respond to.

My original statement was simply this... the gap between Duncan and Parker/Manu as players was less than the difference between Kobe and Pau/Odom, partly because Parker/Manu were better than Pau/Odom and partly because Kobe was better than Duncan at that time. Can we agree on this? It devolved into "diminishing Pau" because someone then said that Pau was a Top 10 player in the league, when he clearly was not... and the Celtic fan implied we had bad memories for thinking otherwise.