NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[CarMalone]

It's funny how here in Florida where there are no BS mandates you could walk around town and not even have an inkling that anything was wrong unless you turned on the fear inducing boob tube.

Except for nearly 55,000 deaths in the past year due to Covid in Florida alone.

Pretty funny stuff.

Yeah, deaths of on average 80 years olds who were already dying but tested "positive" for covid and so they say the died FROM covid and pretend they weren't already on death's door.

Forgive me if I don't find this disease to be so terrifying.

My doctor friends are begging people on social media to get vaccinated. They are telling stories about how they are unable to transfer heart attack and other patients to the ICU because the beds are all full of COVID patients. These deaths could have been avoided and are an indirect casualty of COVID.

Pediatric ICU beds are full in 12+ states because of COVID. Imagine not being able to admit your child to a hospital because they are out of space.

[NYPiston]

this is getting out of hand, no logic or moral behind this chasing after the not vaccinated players, it's their right and it's not like they are risk other people more than ones who are vaccinated, every one can carry the virus just as same, and even if you so worry about them, just offer them to test for COVID everyday

Well, that's simply not true at all and I see too many uninformed (or ignorant) people saying this. Do some research and it's very easy to see that vaccinated and unvaccinated do not "carry the virus just as same" and it doesn't take much time or effort to do that research.

With that said, I do agree that the unvaccinated should have the option to be tested daily.

[510TWSS]

This is factually wrong. Their paychecks will be withheld because they refuse to provide services stated in their contracts. If I do not show up at work for my personal beliefs, I do not expect to get paid.

Cause a vaccine mandate is a normal thing

There have been vaccine mandates for over 200 years, starting with George Washington ordering all troops to be inoculated against smallpox.

Imagine if we just didn't GAF about Polio in the 50's

[Noctilux]

It's funny how here in Florida where there are no BS mandates you could walk around town and not even have an inkling that anything was wrong unless you turned on the fear inducing boob tube.

I stopped reading at "Florida"

[seren]

It's funny how here in Florida where there are no BS mandates you could walk around town and not even have an inkling that anything was wrong unless you turned on the fear inducing boob tube.

I stopped reading at "Florida"

I urge every anti vaxer to move to Florida. Those dudes have a safe haven there. They should just go and enjoy the beautiful sun and their freedoms.

[Lunartic]

Why shouldn't we be content to let them face their own consequences?

I'm not sure how you can ask that question and then in the same vein recognize that hospital resources are finite.

People capable of catching covid and being hospitalized are also finite. Isn't that the purpose of the vaccine? Only a small minority of people with covid are hospitalized or require any medical attention. Regardless of covid, we need to ensure we have the infrastructure and resources to support the country in the event of a pandemic. During the peak, we had floating hospitals, NG flown in, nurses and doctors shipped around the country, field hospitals that went unused.

We aren't at risk of overwhelming the healthcare system, everyone that needs medical attention is receiving it (outside of some random cases that don't pass the reasonable test)

I know one ICU nurse in a midwestern state and a doctor in florida and their stories are the same. ICU beds are 99% filled with unvaccinated people and they are taxed to the brim

.

Hospitals work at near max capacity regularly, they do this to reduce costs. Even during flu season hospitals hit max or near max cap.

Actually the doctor's hospital literally has zero vaccinated hospitalizations. My sister who is also a nurse in PA, has it much easier. She's in allegheny county, which is a very progressive part of pennsylvania and her work ever since the start of the pandemic has been pretty normal, because people have committed to masks and vaccinations. people wore masks when they were supposed to, and the county reached the 70% vaccination rate very quickly.

That's great anecdotal evidence but PA is on the upswing in covid cases. So reaching 70% is nice but how does that reflect in terms of covid cases/deaths? Covid is following a patter, it dips in the summer and explodes in the cooler weather. It seems to me that states with the highest vaccination rates should also be the states with dwindling covid cases. Maybe I'm asking too much from the vaccine.

Now, more to the point, i'm one of those guys who firmly believes "you get what you ask for", but it's not even remotely as simple as letting the players get what they deserve, because they are public figures in public venues that have greater chances of exposure to the virus as well as greater chances to expose OTHERS to the virus. Just because they aren't ron artest in the stands doesn't mean they aren't gonna go home and bring it to the people around them, or wherever else they frequent (look at kyrie and james harden partying last year).

But if the vaccine works, how exactly is an unvaccinated person spreading it to the vaccinated? You even provided an anecdote that people that are taking the shot are not getting sick. Okay, so why does that standard disappear in the case of vaxxed mingling with unvaxxed?

The other part of the equation and maybe most important, is that the "other" people who haven't gotten vaccinated are not all in the same boat as skeptics who should "reap what they sow. Minorities have lower rates of vaccination. Children under a certain age don't qualify. Healthcare workers who got the first wave of shots (like my sister, or the ICU nurse who worked with covid patients day in and day out for 7 months before he recently got covid) have immunities that are now waning. You are bordering on being disingenuous because it's hard to tell if you're intentionally failing to acknowledge the ever-present and still at-risk population.

[/quote]

I'm not being disingenuous at all. I'm asking why a vaccine that is labeled effective suddenly isn't effective when its proponents want to force it on people

"take the vaccine or ur gonna make everyone else sick!"
also
"listen people who are getting covid aren't the vaxxed, it's the dumb unvaxxed"

So the vaccinated aren't getting covid because they're vaccinated. But also the unvaccinated are giving the vaccinated covid.

There is zero consistency.

Please keep posts about how the rules regarding COVID impact the NBA if you want to avoid a strike.

[JohnnyNightrain]

This is wrong on so many levels. Imagine withholding millions of dollars from someone over their personal beliefs. Unreal

Umm... I don't think you understand how society works.

[kenwood3333]

This rule wont apply to star players.

[art_tatum]

It's funny how here in Florida where there are no BS mandates you could walk around town and not even have an inkling that anything was wrong unless you turned on the fear inducing boob tube.

I stopped reading at "Florida"

I urge every anti vaxer to move to Florida. Those dudes have a safe haven there. They should just go and enjoy the beautiful sun and their freedoms.

Should move to west virginia. Lowest % of vaccinated, highest % of hospitalizations

[bwgood77]

If the vaccine works as expected and it prevents the spread/reduces symptoms, then why aren't people content to let the unvaccinated players face the consequences alone? 70%+ of the population is vaccinated, the remaining 30ish percent clearly isn't interested and thus can reap what they sow.

NBA arenas require proof of vaccination or negative tests and NBA players aren't exactly rushing into the crowds and fighting the fans outside of a single incident.

Other than some rare example of someone that is allergic to vaccines, I can't imagine an unvaxxed player is putting anyone at risk assuming those at risk are vaccinated with a safe and effective vaccine. And that is compounded by the fact that a large swath of the 30% unvaccinated have already gotten and recovered from covid, many NBA players have - thus they have the same protection as someone that took the vaccine.

I suppose I just don't see the risk factor here if the vaccines do indeed work effectively. There has been a great effort by the media and government to tell us that breakthrough cases are exceedingly rare and we need not worry about vaxxed spreading covid.

Additionally, a common argument is that ICU beds will dwindle if everyone isn't vaccinated. Question, if we could guarantee we had enough ICU beds and resources, would you agree to removing all covid restrictions and vaccine requirements?

The vaccinated players would very likely be fine and if in the small chance they did catch it from someone who was unvaccinated, they would likely not have a serious case, so you are right. But if you have the 30% public # or even 20 or 10% of NBA players unvaccinated, possibly spreading it to one another, you risk hospitalization and death. This is something the NBA should want to avoid.

And luckily they are with all the restrictions and testing they have in place for unvaccinated players.

You mean the players risk hospitalization and death?

Given that a significant portion of the US population already had covid, it's reasonable to assume a decent swath of the NBA has too. Has any NBA player been hospitalized? I don't recall hearing about it. They are within the age group and fitness level that indicates they have like a 99.98% chance of surviving covid.

Since the onset of Covid, there were about 260,000 deaths of people aged 15-35, that reasonably encapsulates the NBA player ages and possibly over-estimates- of those deaths about 14,000 were covid related. 0.05%.

That stat includes a swath of time when vaccines weren't rolled out and treatments were still poor.

The players aren't and never were at risk of dying from covid statistically and now that the vaccines reduce hospitalizations and risk of death, the number is impossibly small that some of the fittest, youngest people on earth would die from a disease that kills an average age of 80.

I understand where you're coming from and it's reasonable, you prefer as much safety as possible for the players and fans. I think we need to draw the line somewhere or else what happens when the CFR is .004% or .00003%? Do we keep up the precautions until it's completely zero?

I am unsure if you are aware of the Delta variant, but this has shown a rise in hospitalizations and deaths of younger people. And there will almost certainly be more variants.

Using overall #s and rates at this point is meaningless.

This is something that has occurred since the end of he regular NBA season last year.

And yes, I think they and everyone should be overly cautious. It's one thing if it is a person making a choice, putting not only themselves but others at risk.

But with an employer, they could be sued for negligence for being lax on COVID rules in the workplace putting people's lives at risk. The chances may be small, but players and workers health should be a priority. There are also others employed by the NBA who are not 15-35 and in good health.

[seren]

This is wrong on so many levels. Imagine withholding millions of dollars from someone over their personal beliefs. Unreal

Umm... I don't think you understand how society works.

I think the OP doesn’t understood business either. Believes employees are entitled to their paychecks even they won’t show up for work

[Hornet Mania]

I don't think it's fair to call them stupid. I have close relatives who are strongly against getting vaccinated that aren't stupid people. People who want everyone to get vaccinated have to understand the motivations of those who are resisting it. In my family's case it is a deep seeded fear and mistrust of the federal government that is the primary cause of their resistance. And people calling them stupid or ignorant has only caused them to dig in their heels more and become further entrenched in their beliefs.

I don't have the answer for how to open up real dialogue with guys like Wiggins and Beal, but if the goal is to get them vaccinated, insulting them is having the opposite of the desired result.

Very true.

I'm also vaccinated and I'm not entirely comfortable with the casual othering of the non-vaxxed in the media. I want to see everyone get the shot and the insults are not helping that campaign at all. There are millions of people in a range of demographics (rural white, black, latino, hell a quarter of PHDs are hesitant at this point) and they all have wildly different reasons for their hesitancy ranging from sheer conspiracy theory, justified distrust of institutions that have experimented on them in the past, or simply a fear they can't afford to miss work for a day or two with adverse side effects. We have to talk to these people with compassion and understanding, meet them where they are so much as possible, to get that vaccination rate to rise. Strong arming is only making them dig in deeper.

Fwiw I think NBA players will be most influenced by their peers. Those guys will pull their friends aside and talk to them about it and make breakthroughs. That is my expectation.

There is no verbal persuasion that will convince people to change their beliefs. I was surprised at work, one of my conservative antivax conspiracy believing coworker took the shot because the company made rules difficult for people who didn't take the shot. Strong arming works. He took the shot and is okay. Still a weirdo with his beliefs, but now he is a vaccinated weirdo.

Not really. Strong arming people causes a significant number to dig in, oftentimes permanently. Positive messaging is far more effective, especially if it comes from someone you know personally. You have your anecdote, yet I have my own. I discussed the vaccine with quite a few friends (I originally am from a southern state) and helped them come around on the vaccine. I did it by listening to their concerns and discussing why they shouldn't be deal breakers. I would have failed if I just said they were idiots or threatened them up front. Some people are legit too deep in the soup to be reached, but I think the size of that population is overstated by the media. Most people's reason for hesitance is far less wild than qanon or whatever.

And of course verbal persuasion can work. How else have ideas changed over human history if not through discussion and persuasion? It certainly wasn't all by force. I think many people, particularly in America, cannot imagine alternatives beyond force to solve problems and that is a problem in itself.

[art_tatum]

Lol whats the legality of kyrie or wiggins making a go fund me

[AingesBurner]

Technically it’s the city or state government laying out the rules. Also there are threats of lawsuits to government and companies if they don’t provide a safe work environment.

If someone got Covid went to work and killed someone’s grandma or mother, some lawsuit happy grieving person might have a case to get millions if all precautions were not taken.

Just those people who get the vaccine and die from a vaccine injury are the ones left in the cold…. Families having no avenues of getting compensated for a family members death.

There is a government program that provides compensation for injury or death from vaccine. But would be difficult to jump through the hoops to get the money, but so would be a lawsuit.

In the end, companies are going to protect themselves from liability. People have a choice to work at that company or not. They just won't get paid if they choose not to.

So the COVID vaccine producers have immunity meaning if you die from the COVID vaccine they are not liable. Now, if a company mandates a vaccine and you die from the vaccine, they are liable. I’m just pointing out legal facts that are why some may not be getting it and in Isaac’s case, religious reasons. Weird times we are in.

[Lunartic]

The vaccinated players would very likely be fine and if in the small chance they did catch it from someone who was unvaccinated, they would likely not have a serious case, so you are right. But if you have the 30% public # or even 20 or 10% of NBA players unvaccinated, possibly spreading it to one another, you risk hospitalization and death. This is something the NBA should want to avoid.

And luckily they are with all the restrictions and testing they have in place for unvaccinated players.

You mean the players risk hospitalization and death?

Given that a significant portion of the US population already had covid, it's reasonable to assume a decent swath of the NBA has too. Has any NBA player been hospitalized? I don't recall hearing about it. They are within the age group and fitness level that indicates they have like a 99.98% chance of surviving covid.

Since the onset of Covid, there were about 260,000 deaths of people aged 15-35, that reasonably encapsulates the NBA player ages and possibly over-estimates- of those deaths about 14,000 were covid related. 0.05%.

That stat includes a swath of time when vaccines weren't rolled out and treatments were still poor.

The players aren't and never were at risk of dying from covid statistically and now that the vaccines reduce hospitalizations and risk of death, the number is impossibly small that some of the fittest, youngest people on earth would die from a disease that kills an average age of 80.

I understand where you're coming from and it's reasonable, you prefer as much safety as possible for the players and fans. I think we need to draw the line somewhere or else what happens when the CFR is .004% or .00003%? Do we keep up the precautions until it's completely zero?

I am unsure if you are aware of the Delta variant, but this has shown a rise in hospitalizations and deaths of younger people. And there will almost certainly be more variants.

Using overall #s and rates at this point is meaningless.

This is something that has occurred since the end of he regular NBA season last year.

And yes, I think they and everyone should be overly cautious. It's one thing if it is a person making a choice, putting not only themselves but others at risk.

But with an employer, they could be sued for negligence for being lax on COVID rules in the workplace putting people's lives at risk. The chances may be small, but players and workers health should be a priority. There are also others employed by the NBA who are not 15-35 and in good health.

Yep, I'm aware of the Delta variant and the Sigma and the Omega and the .... all viruses mutate and this one will keep mutating, getting more contagious and less deadly. That's why vaccines are utterly hopeless without constant "boosters"

I'd be very interested in seeing how a lawsuit like that would take place, it would set an insane precedent. Influenza kills hundreds of thousands worldwide, if you go to work and everyone isn't constantly wiping surfaces, wearing masks and taking the flu shot - you get the flu, should the employer be liable?

And those who aren't in that safe age group, why aren't they vaccinated if its their concern?

I've been repeatedly told that 99% of all hospitalizations are unvaxxed people. It's reasonable to assume that means it's the unvaxxed that are suffering from covid and are at risk. So if you're vaxxed, you good. I don't see the problem with letting people choose their own adventure.

I can appreciate that your argument is about saving lives and respect that.

[Ambrose]

Does this extend to the postseason? If you're Wiggins or Kyrie, and you are forced to sit 4/7 playoff games each series you basically have to be traded because that's a massive liability.

[wco81]

They'll keep mutating if people keep getting infected.

They can't mutate if they can't replicate and they can't replicate if people don't get infected.

Vaccines reduce infections.

[SpreeChokeJob]

Not really. Strong arming people causes a significant number to dig in, oftentimes permanently. Positive messaging is far more effective, especially if it comes from someone you know personally. You have your anecdote, yet I have my own. I discussed the vaccine with quite a few friends (I originally am from a southern state) and helped them come around on the vaccine. I did it by listening to their concerns and discussing why they shouldn't be deal breakers. I would have failed if I just said they were idiots or threatened them up front. Some people are legit too deep in the soup to be reached, but I think the size of that population is overstated by the media. Most people's reason for hesitance is far less wild than qanon or whatever.

And of course verbal persuasion can work. How else have ideas changed over human history if not through discussion and persuasion? It certainly wasn't all by force. I think many people, particularly in America, cannot imagine alternatives beyond force to solve problems and that is a problem in itself.

There is a significant population that won’t respond to persuasion or logic. Applying systems is more efficient than going door to door and trying to convince another person to believe something else.

[LivingLegend]

I wish players across the leagues everywhere would sit out and let these leagues suffer. Us little guys don't have that much power to change the companies we work for but sport players can do it. This issue of control is bigger than BLM imo.

Its not a NBA thing. Its a "abide by your local cities vaccination laws" thing. Just get the dam vaccine and be done with it.

[JujitsuFlip]

Does this extend to the postseason? If you're Wiggins or Kyrie, and you are forced to sit 4/7 playoff games each series you basically have to be traded because that's a massive liability.

I'm sure it would, unless covid eases up by May/June and the city mandates are lifted.