NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[SpreeChokeJob]

Not really. Strong arming people causes a significant number to dig in, oftentimes permanently. Positive messaging is far more effective, especially if it comes from someone you know personally. You have your anecdote, yet I have my own. I discussed the vaccine with quite a few friends (I originally am from a southern state) and helped them come around on the vaccine. I did it by listening to their concerns and discussing why they shouldn't be deal breakers. I would have failed if I just said they were idiots or threatened them up front. Some people are legit too deep in the soup to be reached, but I think the size of that population is overstated by the media. Most people's reason for hesitance is far less wild than qanon or whatever.

And of course verbal persuasion can work. How else have ideas changed over human history if not through discussion and persuasion? It certainly wasn't all by force. I think many people, particularly in America, cannot imagine alternatives beyond force to solve problems and that is a problem in itself.

There is a significant population that won’t respond to persuasion or logic. Applying systems is more efficient than going door to door and trying to convince another person to believe something else.

I don't think door to door would be very effective either. But you can apply systems in a way that is more carrot than stick. For example, everyone could be guaranteed a minimum 2 days paid leave from work to be vaccinated. Everyone who gets vaccinated could be guaranteed free treatment if they did ever in fact get hospitalized with Covid (a very narrow Medicare for Vaxxed). I'm sure there are plenty of better proposals than that, but these would likely be as effective as mandates without the coercion.

Those would help assuage concerns but wouldn’t convince Kyrie or Wiggins to get a vaccination shot. And there are lot of Kyrie and Wiggins out there.

I will be curious to see what their decisions will be. I’m guessing some of them will take the shot than not. The mandates will not disappear and increase in other cities, so next year will be the same, so it won’t be 15 million dollars, but potentially 30 plus million they would lose for their beliefs.

If they are okay with that, more power to them for sticking up for their beliefs.

[JujitsuFlip]

Not only would the salary be halved, but they'd save several times over on luxury tax payments.

In the other thread the tweet by Bobby Marks said the only way the luxury tax will be impacted is if the salary fines/salary withheld comes from the league. If it is the individual teams who are made to fine the player/withhold his salary for home games then the luxury tax will stay as is.

For sure has a lot of quirks to it.

Makes sense. It would be super sketchy and a conflict of interest if a team can fine players just to barely get under tax lines.

Yup, I 100% agree. It'll be interesting to see how the vote turns out. I assume the Warriors and Nets would vote for the league to enforce it, where some of the other teams may vote for individual teams to enforce it since their city/state will probably never mandate anything where they have to even worry about it.

[mademan]

Do they give players breakdowns on what % of their paycheque comes from games vs other duties (practice, media availability, film sessions, day to day stuff..etc) ? I wonder how they determine how much they'll get docked

Unvaccinated players in SF and NYC won't be able to use team facilities to practice either once the regular season starts.

that simplifies it

[mademan]

I very sincerely thought the league wouldnt waddle into this quagmire. I cant imagine the NBAPA doesnt appeal and then likely sue after the first fine for this. Im not privy to the contracts so i have no idea how strong the lawsuit would be, but i thought the NBA-being 90%+ vaccinated- wouldnt go down this road for a couple fringe cases and would just charge it to the game.

[Jcity08]

Essentially just saying what everyone already knew, if the localities have a mandate preventing a player from playing those games because of their vaccination status, they wont get paid.

Players have the freedom to not get jabbed, teams have the freedom to not pay them to catch the games in their hotels.

[Pointgod]

I'd like to see the section of CBA they base this on. Going to be a solid legal case regardless.

Yes I’m sure that random poster ItsDanger has put more research and effort into this than the NBA’s lawyers lmao

[bearadonisdna]

the nba need to take it up with government to why they are voiding their leagues contracts.
guess what, it say guaranteed salary.
That means if the sun disappears , that mean that salary owed.

[nfmos]

I don't think it's fair to call them stupid. I have close relatives who are strongly against getting vaccinated that aren't stupid people. People who want everyone to get vaccinated have to understand the motivations of those who are resisting it. In my family's case it is a deep seeded fear and mistrust of the federal government that is the primary cause of their resistance. And people calling them stupid or ignorant has only caused them to dig in their heels more and become further entrenched in their beliefs.

I don't have the answer for how to open up real dialogue with guys like Wiggins and Beal, but if the goal is to get them vaccinated, insulting them is having the opposite of the desired result.

Very true.

I'm also vaccinated and I'm not entirely comfortable with the casual othering of the non-vaxxed in the media. I want to see everyone get the shot and the insults are not helping that campaign at all. There are millions of people in a range of demographics (rural white, black, latino, hell a quarter of PHDs are hesitant at this point) and they all have wildly different reasons for their hesitancy ranging from sheer conspiracy theory, justified distrust of institutions that have experimented on them in the past, or simply a fear they can't afford to miss work for a day or two with adverse side effects. We have to talk to these people with compassion and understanding, meet them where they are so much as possible, to get that vaccination rate to rise. Strong arming is only making them dig in deeper.

Fwiw I think NBA players will be most influenced by their peers. Those guys will pull their friends aside and talk to them about it and make breakthroughs. That is my expectation.

There is no verbal persuasion that will convince people to change their beliefs. I was surprised at work, one of my conservative antivax conspiracy believing coworker took the shot because the company made rules difficult for people who didn't take the shot. Strong arming works. He took the shot and is okay. Still a weirdo with his beliefs, but now he is a vaccinated weirdo.

Exactly. Like the NFL, Raiders games specifically. Lots of people in Vegas and Raiders fans were antivax, but given the choice over resisting the vac and going to the games, they picked football. That prompted thousands of fans to get the vax. So i definitely agree with this tactic.

[heatwillbeback]

Essentially just saying what everyone already knew, if the localities have a mandate preventing a player from playing those games because of their vaccination status, they wont get paid.

Players have the freedom to not get jabbed, teams have the freedom to not pay them to catch the games in their hotels.

I think we would have had the league stay quiet if these were smaller salaried players.

But when you have max guys like Kyrie and Wiggins potentially missing half the year- yea owners would be furious if they had to pay salaries for games missed by choice. And Silver represents the interests of the owners.

Players association could sue but I doubt they win- the restrictions are city/state based.

[Memories]

It's funny how here in Florida where there are no BS mandates you could walk around town and not even have an inkling that anything was wrong unless you turned on the fear inducing boob tube.

I stopped reading at "Florida"

Ah yes. "Florida" a land full of objective and reasonable people. Totally not a place that is constantly memed as "Florida Man" due to all the moronic things that consistently happen in that state on the daily.

Nope. A totally sane state that Bugs Bunny himself respects!....with a saw of course.

Watch on YouTube

[Egg Nog]

I very sincerely thought the league wouldnt waddle into this quagmire. I cant imagine the NBAPA doesnt appeal and then likely sue after the first fine for this. Im not privy to the contracts so i have no idea how strong the lawsuit would be, but i thought the NBA-being 90%+ vaccinated- wouldnt go down this road for a couple fringe cases and would just charge it to the game.

The NBA doesn't create state laws, how do you expect them to avoid "waddling into this quagmire"?

[Memories]

Do they give players breakdowns on what % of their paycheque comes from games vs other duties (practice, media availability, film sessions, day to day stuff..etc) ? I wonder how they determine how much they'll get docked

Unvaccinated players in SF and NYC won't be able to use team facilities to practice either once the regular season starts.

that simplifies it

So basically, Kyrie also can't even practice with the team.

[JujitsuFlip]

Unvaccinated players in SF and NYC won't be able to use team facilities to practice either once the regular season starts.

that simplifies it

So basically, Kyrie also can't even practice with the team.

Nope, which will put him at further risk of injury for the 39 or 41 games he is eligible. I think maintaining game shape will be a difficult task, unless he can find a private gym to lift weights and run 5 on 5 with people, although I'm not sure the Nets will allow him to play pick-up games during the season. Running sprints in an empty gym can only do so much.

[Swish1906]

I wish players across the leagues everywhere would sit out and let these leagues suffer. Us little guys don't have that much power to change the companies we work for but sport players can do it. This issue of control is bigger than BLM imo.

Lol nice try.

The league would be more than fine without Irving, MPJ, Wiggins, Burke and the other around 35 player

[Shock Defeat]

James Harden is desperate for a ring, his legacy is on the line this year. this dude better smack the **** out of Kyrie for jeopardizing his chances.

[Clyde Frazier]

If the vaccine works as expected and it prevents the spread/reduces symptoms, then why aren't people content to let the unvaccinated players face the consequences alone? 70%+ of the population is vaccinated, the remaining 30ish percent clearly isn't interested and thus can reap what they sow.

NBA arenas require proof of vaccination or negative tests and NBA players aren't exactly rushing into the crowds and fighting the fans outside of a single incident.

Other than some rare example of someone that is allergic to vaccines, I can't imagine an unvaxxed player is putting anyone at risk assuming those at risk are vaccinated with a safe and effective vaccine. And that is compounded by the fact that a large swath of the 30% unvaccinated have already gotten and recovered from covid, many NBA players have - thus they have the same protection as someone that took the vaccine.

I suppose I just don't see the risk factor here if the vaccines do indeed work effectively. There has been a great effort by the media and government to tell us that breakthrough cases are exceedingly rare and we need not worry about vaxxed spreading covid.


Additionally, a common argument is that ICU beds will dwindle if everyone isn't vaccinated. Question, if we could guarantee we had enough ICU beds and resources, would you agree to removing all covid restrictions and vaccine requirements?

Hospital congestion and unnecessary death seem like pretty good reasons to me.

[seren]

I wish players across the leagues everywhere would sit out and let these leagues suffer. Us little guys don't have that much power to change the companies we work for but sport players can do it. This issue of control is bigger than BLM imo.

Lol nice try.

The league would be more than fine without Irving, MPJ, Wiggins, Burke and the other around 35 player

Yep. There is also the nonsense assumption that vaccinated players are neutral parties here. Players, coaches, refs, other staff and their families all have stake in this. I am pretty sure a significant amount of them are as worried about Covid as the rest of the society and are not interested in risking getting Covid from unvaccinated players. They are well capable of understanding these dudes but also what Karl Anthony Towns and his family went through.

[nfmos]

Very true.

I'm also vaccinated and I'm not entirely comfortable with the casual othering of the non-vaxxed in the media. I want to see everyone get the shot and the insults are not helping that campaign at all. There are millions of people in a range of demographics (rural white, black, latino, hell a quarter of PHDs are hesitant at this point) and they all have wildly different reasons for their hesitancy ranging from sheer conspiracy theory, justified distrust of institutions that have experimented on them in the past, or simply a fear they can't afford to miss work for a day or two with adverse side effects. We have to talk to these people with compassion and understanding, meet them where they are so much as possible, to get that vaccination rate to rise. Strong arming is only making them dig in deeper.

Fwiw I think NBA players will be most influenced by their peers. Those guys will pull their friends aside and talk to them about it and make breakthroughs. That is my expectation.

There is no verbal persuasion that will convince people to change their beliefs. I was surprised at work, one of my conservative antivax conspiracy believing coworker took the shot because the company made rules difficult for people who didn't take the shot. Strong arming works. He took the shot and is okay. Still a weirdo with his beliefs, but now he is a vaccinated weirdo.

Not really. Strong arming people causes a significant number to dig in, oftentimes permanently. Positive messaging is far more effective, especially if it comes from someone you know personally. You have your anecdote, yet I have my own. I discussed the vaccine with quite a few friends (I originally am from a southern state) and helped them come around on the vaccine. I did it by listening to their concerns and discussing why they shouldn't be deal breakers. I would have failed if I just said they were idiots or threatened them up front. Some people are legit too deep in the soup to be reached, but I think the size of that population is overstated by the media. Most people's reason for hesitance is far less wild than qanon or whatever.

And of course verbal persuasion can work. How else have ideas changed over human history if not through discussion and persuasion? It certainly wasn't all by force. I think many people, particularly in America, cannot imagine alternatives beyond force to solve problems and that is a problem in itself.

I think the reason it worked is because they felt like you are one of them and so immediately were giving you the benefit of the doubt. I have a cousin who has always been one of my favorite relatives growing up, and there is no way to even start a conversation with her about vaccines, she already assumes i am on the left and will not even listen to what i have to say.

If Tucker or Hannity or Trump actually went full on pro-vax, they could convince a lot of people to get vaxxed. But they don't want to alienate the wacko fringe, (just like Trump didnt want to alienate racist supporters) so they always try to leave that shadow of doubt to placate them anytime they speak out supporting vaccines.

So if the major influencers on the right aren't going to help with this, and these people will not listen to anyone on the right, how much more time, effort, and money need to be used on people that aren't going to change anyways?

[jg77]

I wish players across the leagues everywhere would sit out and let these leagues suffer. Us little guys don't have that much power to change the companies we work for but sport players can do it. This issue of control is bigger than BLM imo.

Lol nice try.

The league would be more than fine without Irving, MPJ, Wiggins, Burke and the other around 35 player

Yep. There is also the nonsense assumption that vaccinated players are neutral parties here. Players, coaches, refs, other staff and their families all have stake in this. I am pretty sure a significant amount of them are as worried about Covid as the rest of the society and are not interested in risking getting Covid from unvaccinated players. They are well capable of understanding these dudes but also what Karl Anthony Towns and his family went through.

Why should a vaccinated person be afraid or worried about an unvaccinated person? That makes no sense and means the vaccine is pointless. The logic is all over the place with this thing. It's become more about I believe in this so I want you to do it too.

[nfmos]

Does this extend to the postseason? If you're Wiggins or Kyrie, and you are forced to sit 4/7 playoff games each series you basically have to be traded because that's a massive liability.

Duh? The rule isn't about the nba, it's anyone working in these places. You don't get an exception for the playoffs lol.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they made an exception for the playoffs if the Nets and Warriors were contenders. NY and CA are beacons of nonsensical actions.

haha there is no way the Bay Area will make exceptions for athletes because of the playoffs

And yes, beacons of nonsensical actions besides being the #1 and #3 states that contribute most to this countries GDP.