Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[Texas Chuck]

I think Duncan is given a fair amount of credit though getting to play with older DRob and Popovich for 20 years was a pretty uniquely good situation to be in. Plus Tony and Manu. Which isn't to discredit Duncan but just part of why I'm not much a fan of the whole narrative view of looking at players' careers.

Sure, there are places to pick at it--I mean most Duncan detractors don't cite his actual play much because there isn't much to criticize and so they talk about landing in a spot spot, the team finding talent in unexpected places, the stability and excellence of Pop and Buford, etc...

All of that certainly benefited Timmy and the Spurs. But my stance on teammates is simple -- if you had good/great teams did you win? Then no penalty for that. If you only had 1st round talent, did you get them there every year like KG? Then no penalty or extra credit for that either.

Are there years Lebron or Duncan had championship level teams and didn't win? Sure, in b2b years even they denied each other. Are there years both of them won a title and didn't have a championship level team? Yep. So that for me at least keeps me from holding say 2011 as this death blow to Lebron's candidacy.

So I don't care who had more of a superteam between Lebron or Mike. Doesn't matter. They achieved a ton of success with the teams they had which is all we can ask them to do. It would be a problem if Mike won 1 title in the 90's with that team. That would tell us something about him maybe not being the player his scoring numbers suggest. Or if Lebron wasn't in the Finals every single year. But the reality is their teams just won and won and won. So the argument is moot and we should focus on the players themselves.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think a mod should consider stickying this thread at the top and making it the permanent MJ v LBJ thread.

[jalengreen]

I think a mod should consider stickying this thread at the top and making it the permanent MJ v LBJ thread.

Making it the permanent jordan v lebron thread makes sense but i don't think it's sticky worthy tbh lol

[migya]

On Lebron in the finals; His defense was below average quite often and the video below shows many examples of that in a whole finals series.

Watch on YouTube

Jordan never did that.

[falcolombardi]

On Lebron in the finals; His defense was below average quite often and the video below shows many examples of that in a whole finals series.

Watch on YouTube

Jordan never did that.

there is a problem with this argument

just because nobody has done a video of jordan defensive mistakes (or it has not gained traction, or you have not seen it) is not proof those didnt exist

i am sure there must be a recopilation of bad jordan plays in a finals somewhere, and if there is not it probably could easily be done

with highlighting (and lowlighthing) specific plays cherrh picked over hundreds (or thousand) of possesions in a series you can easily push may narrative.

i am sure you could pick jrue hollyday 20 worst defensive possesions out of 1000 in a series and make a 12 minutes video making him look bad

no player has weaknesses in a highlight video and no one is good in a lowlights video

if you kept track of said defensive mistakes, kept count, made sure they actually were mistakes (sometimes watching in live time is hard to know who actually messed up, is easy to misplace the Blame on the dude who got scored on by trying to contest or has to leave his own man open to help on another player and looks bad for it)

and proved that a player actually made mistakes in a higher proportion then that would be somethingh

otherwise is just cherrypicking

[migya]

On Lebron in the finals; His defense was below average quite often and the video below shows many examples of that in a whole finals series.

Watch on YouTube

Jordan never did that.

there is a problem with this argument

just because nobody has done a video of jordan defensive mistakes (or it has not gained traction, or you have not seen it) is not proof those didnt exist

i am sure there must be a recopilation of bad jordan plays in a finals somewhere, and if there is not it probably could easily be done

with highlighting (and lowlighthing) specific plays cherrh picked over hundreds (or thousand) of possesions in a series you can easily push may narrative.

i am sure you could pick jrue hollyday 20 worst defensive possesions out of 1000 in a series and make a 12 minutes video making him look bad

no player has weaknesses in a highlight video and no one is good in a lowlights video

if you kept track of said defensive mistakes, kept count, made sure they actually were mistakes (sometimes watching in live time is hard to know who actually messed up, is easy to misplace the Blame on the dude who got scored on by trying to contest or has to leave his own man open to help on another player and looks bad for it)

and proved that a player actually made mistakes in a higher proportion then that would be somethingh

otherwise is just cherrypicking

Jordan has had defensive lapses otherwise noone he has guarded would've ever scored, but he's never had a bad defensive series like this one by Lebron.

The below video by Thinking Basketball, which I think there was a thread on here a while ago, shows some examples of Jordan's defensive lapses, but is picking over a large sample spread, over many years.

Watch on YouTube

[KTM_2813]

Jordan has had defensive lapses otherwise noone he has guarded would've ever scored, but he's never had a bad defensive series like this one by Lebron.

The below video by Thinking Basketball, which I think there was a thread on here a while ago, shows some examples of Jordan's defensive lapses, but is picking over a large sample spread, over many years.

This is an example of two classic Jordan versus LeBron dillemas.

[1] Consistency versus totality. Perhaps Jordan was more consistent because he never had a bad defensive run/series, but it's likely that LeBron had more good-to-great defensive runs/series in total. It's also been argued (by Thinking Basketball no less) that LeBron had the better defensive peak, even though Jordan was maybe more reliable on a night-to-night basis. What matters more?

[2] Apples versus oranges. Perhaps Jordan never had a bad defensive series but he also never had to play against what is widely considered to be the greatest offensive team of all-time in a seventh-consecutive Finals on a bad defensive team. It's also worth keeping in mind that Jordan took 1.5 years off to recharge in the middle of his prime, which James did not do. Maybe Jordan crushes it anyway with his superhuman competitiveness and physical superiority, but we'll never know.

[Djoker]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

As for bad defensive series, Lebron has had plenty. 2017 finals from the video above is an excellent candidate. A post in response to that mentioned that 20 possessions were cherrypicked out of a 1000 but that isn't really the case. Considering the series was played at a pace of 100 that's around 500 defensive and offensive possessions per team across the five game series. Lebron played 212 out of 240 possible minutes so he's was on the floor for about 440 defensive possessions. However it's clear that Lebron probably wasn't even involved on defense in a lot of these possessions so the sample was much lower than this too. Maybe defensive 100-200 possessions in which Lebron was involved in any way? Anyways I watched the first 3 minutes of that video and there's already over 10 lapses by Lebron all from Game 1 so there is no way that there's only 20 plays there.

From player tracking on NBA.com we have Lebron's defensive numbers from the 2017 finals... and they are atrocious. This data doesn't even show how many times he got beat off the dribble leading to breakdowns that eventually led to made baskets like a few in the video. This is just the man defense. His matchups shot 36/64 (56.3%) from the field and 9/21 (42.9%) from 3pt range during the series. Given the Warriors' average shooting percentages of 47.5% from the field and 38.2% from 3pt range in the finals, it's clear that Lebron was a huge defensive liability. Which of course the eye test shows as well. Lebron's had a somewhat low defensive usage contesting 12.8 shots per game.

How about the 2014 finals? His matchups shot 20/35 (57.1%) from the field and 7/12 (58.3%) from 3pt range during the series. Despite the Spurs offensive brilliance in that series this was still much higher than their series averages again showing that Lebron was a liability. He had a very low defensive usage contesting 7 shots per game.

In fact, defensive usage for Lebron is generally low across all his series. He almost always seems to dodge guarding the most difficult matchups. If you look at all of his finals that we have tracking for (2014 to present) you won't come away thinking of Lebron as a great defender except in 2016. I would venture a guess that his 2009-2013 numbers are better but even in that span he had a few bad defensive series namely the 2009 ECF and 2011 finals. And my gut tells me that the 2012 finals were average.

[migya]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

It is bad reasoning. Unless a personal athlete is training in that sport and often at that level, they will detrain and so be worse at that sport. It's like saying Klay Thompson should be better off having two years off since he was injured.

[jalengreen]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

http://www.atthegame.com/cheryl-raye-stout-michael-jordan-interview/

Cheryl Raye-Stout : Where is your game at right now as opposed to maybe a couple of years ago, when you were playing before in the championship?

Michael Jordan: From a mental aspect I’m fresher because of time away from the game, time to evaluate certain situations within my life, get rededicated to the game and see the stages and the levels that it took to get to the level that I was at ….

[KTM_2813]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

On the mental side, it's well-documented that Jordan's break from the game helped him recharge mentally. Not only are there direct quotes from Jordan about this but it's also been observed by other people as well (I believe this is covered in The Last Dance).

Also, I'm not a baseball expert but I don't think it's a controversial opinion that the physical toll of playing basketball is considerably worse than that of playing baseball (assuming you don't get nailed by a pitch or something). There's a reason the baseball season has twice as many games as the basketball season. I'd definitely be interested to hear from more knowledgeable people though, and am honestly curious to learn about this.

[KTM_2813]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

It is bad reasoning. Unless a personal athlete is training in that sport and often at that level, they will detrain and so be worse at that sport. It's like saying Klay Thompson should be better off having two years off since he was injured.

With all due respect, it's not remotely the same thing. Have you been drinking? And I ask with love because it's Friday, so feel free to pass it around.

[1] "Jordan took 1.5 years off from playing basketball to play baseball, which resulted in his body not being as physically taxed as if he had simply continued to play basketball throughout that time. The potential physical benefits of this break should be considered in a comparison to LeBron, who did not have a similar break."

[2] "Klay Thompson blew out his ACL and then his Achilles, which resulted in him being literally unable to walk properly and miss two years of basketball because those are two of the worst injuries a basketball player can possibly have, therefore he should be better off because he got a long break."

Does [1] really sound like [2]?

[Cavsfansince84]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

It is bad reasoning. Unless a personal athlete is training in that sport and often at that level, they will detrain and so be worse at that sport. It's like saying Klay Thompson should be better off having two years off since he was injured.

In terms of having the same physical peak after 95 as compared to pre 94 I would agree, part of which has to do with age as well. In terms of floor though, MJ had just about reached his limits in every way after the first 3 peat. The biggest reason he gave at his first retirement press conference was in his own words that he was burnt out. I think he was burnt out in every imaginable way after being the center of the sports universe for the last 5 years, having completed a 3 peat and having competed in the Olympics plus the death of his father a year before. He knew he could no longer live up to the insanely high standard he had for himself at that point imo and needed to recuperate. So on one hand his body did lose its super fine conditioning to play bb but on the other it allowed his body and mind to recover and not go through the rigors of an 8 month run for another championship which he definitely needed. Otherwise his body may well have started breaking down by 96 or 97.

[Djoker]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

On the mental side, it's well-documented that Jordan's break from the game helped him recharge mentally. Not only are there direct quotes from Jordan about this but it's also been observed by other people as well (I believe this is covered in The Last Dance).

Also, I'm not a baseball expert but I don't think it's a controversial opinion that the physical toll of playing basketball is considerably worse than that of playing baseball (assuming you don't get nailed by a pitch or something). There's a reason the baseball season has twice as many games as the basketball season. I'd definitely be interested to hear from more knowledgeable people though, and am honestly curious to learn about this.

Sure. He recharged mentally for basketball but how much did not practicing basketball and completely reforming his body for baseball hurt him? Which factor comes out ahead I'm really not sure. One could make an argument that if his father never got killed and MJ never left and just played through that he would have been better off. Note that I'm not making that argument because it's an irrelevant hypothetical as is the opposite argument. But an argument can be made...

[falcolombardi]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

As for bad defensive series, Lebron has had plenty. 2017 finals from the video above is an excellent candidate. A post in response to that mentioned that 20 possessions were cherrypicked out of a 1000 but that isn't really the case. Considering the series was played at a pace of 100 that's around 500 defensive and offensive possessions per team across the five game series. Lebron played 212 out of 240 possible minutes so he's was on the floor for about 440 defensive possessions. However it's clear that Lebron probably wasn't even involved on defense in a lot of these possessions so the sample was much lower than this too. Maybe defensive 100-200 possessions in which Lebron was involved in any way? Anyways I watched the first 3 minutes of that video and there's already over 10 lapses by Lebron all from Game 1 so there is no way that there's only 20 plays there.

From player tracking on NBA.com we have Lebron's defensive numbers from the 2017 finals... and they are atrocious. This data doesn't even show how many times he got beat off the dribble leading to breakdowns that eventually led to made baskets like a few in the video. This is just the man defense. His matchups shot 36/64 (56.3%) from the field and 9/21 (42.9%) from 3pt range during the series. Given the Warriors' average shooting percentages of 47.5% from the field and 38.2% from 3pt range in the finals, it's clear that Lebron was a huge defensive liability. Which of course the eye test shows as well. Lebron's had a somewhat low defensive usage contesting 12.8 shots per game.

How about the 2014 finals? His matchups shot 20/35 (57.1%) from the field and 7/12 (58.3%) from 3pt range during the series. Despite the Spurs offensive brilliance in that series this was still much higher than their series averages again showing that Lebron was a liability. He had a very low defensive usage contesting 7 shots per game.

In fact, defensive usage for Lebron is generally low across all his series. He almost always seems to dodge guarding the most difficult matchups. If you look at all of his finals that we have tracking for (2014 to present) you won't come away thinking of Lebron as a great defender except in 2016. I would venture a guess that his 2009-2013 numbers are better but even in that span he had a few bad defensive series namely the 2009 ECF and 2011 finals. And my gut tells me that the 2012 finals were average.

wat!? you think 2009 was a bad defensive performance?

also on your topic about 2017, are you sure warriors were not simply that good?, i mean, warriors were the league second best defense and still got shredded. thst was a series between all time high levels of offense where nobody could stop the other team

warriors just had better defensive talent and depth to withstand it which is why they won in 5

[Cavsfansince84]

Sure. He recharged mentally for basketball but how much did not practicing basketball and completely reforming his body for baseball hurt him? Which factor comes out ahead I'm really not sure. One could make an argument that if his father never got killed and MJ never left and just played through that he would have been better off. Note that I'm not making that argument because it's an irrelevant hypothetical as is the opposite argument. But an argument can be made...

It's not irrelevant because we know that MJ has said numerous times that he was worn out and burnt out on playing bb. This is not even getting into the toll that playing in consecutive finals is known to have on players along with MJ's known penchant for staying up all hours of the night to gamble, play 72 holes of golf and everything else. Even MJ has his physical limits as a human being and it's quite logical based on everything we know to say he needed time off from playing bb 8 months out of the year and being the center of the media who cover the game. I think it's most grating to hear people act like he could have just kept on chugging along from 94-96 winning titles every year had he simply felt like it.

[Djoker]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

As for bad defensive series, Lebron has had plenty. 2017 finals from the video above is an excellent candidate. A post in response to that mentioned that 20 possessions were cherrypicked out of a 1000 but that isn't really the case. Considering the series was played at a pace of 100 that's around 500 defensive and offensive possessions per team across the five game series. Lebron played 212 out of 240 possible minutes so he's was on the floor for about 440 defensive possessions. However it's clear that Lebron probably wasn't even involved on defense in a lot of these possessions so the sample was much lower than this too. Maybe defensive 100-200 possessions in which Lebron was involved in any way? Anyways I watched the first 3 minutes of that video and there's already over 10 lapses by Lebron all from Game 1 so there is no way that there's only 20 plays there.

From player tracking on NBA.com we have Lebron's defensive numbers from the 2017 finals... and they are atrocious. This data doesn't even show how many times he got beat off the dribble leading to breakdowns that eventually led to made baskets like a few in the video. This is just the man defense. His matchups shot 36/64 (56.3%) from the field and 9/21 (42.9%) from 3pt range during the series. Given the Warriors' average shooting percentages of 47.5% from the field and 38.2% from 3pt range in the finals, it's clear that Lebron was a huge defensive liability. Which of course the eye test shows as well. Lebron's had a somewhat low defensive usage contesting 12.8 shots per game.

How about the 2014 finals? His matchups shot 20/35 (57.1%) from the field and 7/12 (58.3%) from 3pt range during the series. Despite the Spurs offensive brilliance in that series this was still much higher than their series averages again showing that Lebron was a liability. He had a very low defensive usage contesting 7 shots per game.

In fact, defensive usage for Lebron is generally low across all his series. He almost always seems to dodge guarding the most difficult matchups. If you look at all of his finals that we have tracking for (2014 to present) you won't come away thinking of Lebron as a great defender except in 2016. I would venture a guess that his 2009-2013 numbers are better but even in that span he had a few bad defensive series namely the 2009 ECF and 2011 finals. And my gut tells me that the 2012 finals were average.

wat!? you think 2009 was a bad defensive performance?

also on your topic about 2017, are you sure warriors were not simply that good?, i mean, warriors were the league second best defense and still got shredded. thst was a series between all time high levels of offense where nobody could stop the other team

warriors just had better defensive talent and depth to withstand it which is why they won in 5

He was pretty bad defensively in the Orlando series in 2009. The Cavs as a team let the Magic torch them from 3pt land in that series which is the main reason they lost. Apart from that series it was a pretty strong defensive season for Lebron.

Anyways why is it so hard to admit that Lebron's defense was terrible in the 2017 finals?

[KTM_2813]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

On the mental side, it's well-documented that Jordan's break from the game helped him recharge mentally. Not only are there direct quotes from Jordan about this but it's also been observed by other people as well (I believe this is covered in The Last Dance).

Also, I'm not a baseball expert but I don't think it's a controversial opinion that the physical toll of playing basketball is considerably worse than that of playing baseball (assuming you don't get nailed by a pitch or something). There's a reason the baseball season has twice as many games as the basketball season. I'd definitely be interested to hear from more knowledgeable people though, and am honestly curious to learn about this.

Sure. He recharged mentally for basketball but how much did not practicing basketball and completely reforming his body for baseball hurt him? Which factor comes out ahead I'm really not sure. One could make an argument that if his father never got killed and MJ never left and just played through that he would have been better off. Note that I'm not making that argument because it's an irrelevant hypothetical as is the opposite argument. But an argument can be made...

I'd be interested in hearing from an expert in the field. I honestly don't know for sure. However, I will say that I'd be pretty shocked if Jordan's route (three straight NBA Finals, baseball, partial NBA season, three straight NBA Finals) was as physically grueling for basketball as LeBron's route (eight straight NBA Finals). Maybe I'm just being way too disrespectful towards baseball.

[Point-Forward]

Gonna leave this here just in case someone is interested:

Watch on YouTube

[falcolombardi]

Perhaps nothing bothers me more in this debate than bringing up that "Jordan took 1.5 years to recharge off in the middle of his prime". This gets thrown around often but perhaps people don't realize that he spent that time playing another professional sport that he's less familiar with and in the process had to work even harder to change his body. In what world is that recharging?

As for bad defensive series, Lebron has had plenty. 2017 finals from the video above is an excellent candidate. A post in response to that mentioned that 20 possessions were cherrypicked out of a 1000 but that isn't really the case. Considering the series was played at a pace of 100 that's around 500 defensive and offensive possessions per team across the five game series. Lebron played 212 out of 240 possible minutes so he's was on the floor for about 440 defensive possessions. However it's clear that Lebron probably wasn't even involved on defense in a lot of these possessions so the sample was much lower than this too. Maybe defensive 100-200 possessions in which Lebron was involved in any way? Anyways I watched the first 3 minutes of that video and there's already over 10 lapses by Lebron all from Game 1 so there is no way that there's only 20 plays there.

From player tracking on NBA.com we have Lebron's defensive numbers from the 2017 finals... and they are atrocious. This data doesn't even show how many times he got beat off the dribble leading to breakdowns that eventually led to made baskets like a few in the video. This is just the man defense. His matchups shot 36/64 (56.3%) from the field and 9/21 (42.9%) from 3pt range during the series. Given the Warriors' average shooting percentages of 47.5% from the field and 38.2% from 3pt range in the finals, it's clear that Lebron was a huge defensive liability. Which of course the eye test shows as well. Lebron's had a somewhat low defensive usage contesting 12.8 shots per game.

How about the 2014 finals? His matchups shot 20/35 (57.1%) from the field and 7/12 (58.3%) from 3pt range during the series. Despite the Spurs offensive brilliance in that series this was still much higher than their series averages again showing that Lebron was a liability. He had a very low defensive usage contesting 7 shots per game.

In fact, defensive usage for Lebron is generally low across all his series. He almost always seems to dodge guarding the most difficult matchups. If you look at all of his finals that we have tracking for (2014 to present) you won't come away thinking of Lebron as a great defender except in 2016. I would venture a guess that his 2009-2013 numbers are better but even in that span he had a few bad defensive series namely the 2009 ECF and 2011 finals. And my gut tells me that the 2012 finals were average.

wat!? you think 2009 was a bad defensive performance?

also on your topic about 2017, are you sure warriors were not simply that good?, i mean, warriors were the league second best defense and still got shredded. thst was a series between all time high levels of offense where nobody could stop the other team

warriors just had better defensive talent and depth to withstand it which is why they won in 5

He was pretty bad defensively in the Orlando series in 2009. The Cavs as a team let the Magic torch them from 3pt land in that series which is the main reason they lost. Apart from that series it was a pretty strong defensive season for Lebron.

Anyways why is it so hard to admit that Lebron's defense was terrible in the 2017 finals?

you ideally need 4 players and a rim protector to defend the perimeter, specially against a pick and roll and 4 shooters offense, even dpoy rudy gobert couldnt stop the clippers by himself and the jazz got shredded by hot shooting lineups. one perimeter player cannot defend the whole perimeter against a team with multiple initiators amd shooters

were not you who said those cavs were stacked defensively so lebron can be criticized for not doing more with them? (or was it someone else?)

cause if they were such a great defensive cast why they got shredded to that extent ? cannot have it both ways (give lebron full blame/responsability for the whole defense while saying he got a great supporting cast thlse years because of having great defenders )

and because warriors were not a normal team, they were a order of magnitude more talented than the usual championship team
there is just so much Energy to spend in defense while trying to keep up with them in offense (which the cavs actually im relative offense despite lesser talent overall as a testament to lebron ceiling raising offensively*)

cavs with lebron on court played those warriors very close but got shredded in bench lineups which is about as good as it can be realistically demanded considering the talent gap