Ben Simmons trades go here (and here only): Expect warnings if not following forum rules

[BlazersBroncos]

FWIW ignoring where Simmons wants to be for a second building around him specifically could be a really fun almost moneyball type task. Not per se for a contender, but in the short term, I'd love to see someone like Sacto just go all out on elite shooters and one decent defensive big that can shoot a bit. A running team with Simmons and shooters would be very fun. Embiid necessarily slows the team down a bit. Not to take away from his immense talent, but I think a faster team could really see him thrive.

I agree. I dont think the results would be a deep playoff team, but it would be really fun to watch. The issue is, who does SAC trade? I dont think SAC trades their cornerstone in Fox, a guy who is probably not just a better player than Ben but also has been actively interested in the SAC community. Hali is an option, but he also seems to be off the table.

Would Mitchell + Barnes to CLE, Sexton + Love to PHI and Ben to SAC be possible? w/ SAC moving a FRP or two to PHI as well?

Is that better than simply getting CJ + picks? What are the other options, because to me SAC / CLE / PDX seem the most likely.

[toooskies]

In the last four years, they have come in 1st, 6th, 3rd, and 3rd in the regular season. They successfully win a lot of regular season games.

But aren’t they trying to build the team to win a ring? PHI has failed to reach the East Coast Finals, let alone play for a ring.

...

PHI has not struggled to build successful regular season teams with Simmons. They have however failed to meet playoff expectations with those teams.

What was the actual playoff expectations of those teams?

Looking at it I see based off vegas win totals before the season started:
20-21: expected ECS made ECS
19-20: expected ECF made 1st round; underperformed 2 rounds {Note this was in bubble and Simmons was injured in the playoffs}
18-19: expected ECS made ECS
17-18: expected 1st round made ECS

So, using what i think is a solid basis for expectations, it would look like the Sixers have underperfomed in the playoffs is either based off:
1) The Sixers actually overperforming in the regular season and then performing to expectations in the playoffs.
2) A single bubble playoff when Simmons was injured; which would be a weird critique of Simmons.

It's fun to make the numbers say that a 1 seed losing to a 5 seed isn't failing to meet expectations.

[Texas Chuck]

In the last four years, they have come in 1st, 6th, 3rd, and 3rd in the regular season. They successfully win a lot of regular season games.

But aren’t they trying to build the team to win a ring? PHI has failed to reach the East Coast Finals, let alone play for a ring.

...

PHI has not struggled to build successful regular season teams with Simmons. They have however failed to meet playoff expectations with those teams.

What was the actual playoff expectations of those teams?

Looking at it I see based off vegas win totals before the season started:
20-21: expected ECS made ECS
19-20: expected ECF made 1st round; underperformed 2 rounds {Note this was in bubble and Simmons was injured in the playoffs}
18-19: expected ECS made ECS
17-18: expected 1st round made ECS

So, using what i think is a solid basis for expectations, it would look like the Sixers have underperfomed in the playoffs is either based off:
1) The Sixers actually overperforming in the regular season and then performing to expectations in the playoffs.
2) A single bubble playoff when Simmons was injured; which would be a weird critique of Simmons.

It's fun to make the numbers say that a 1 seed losing to a 5 seed isn't failing to meet expectations.

This whole argument is pretty dumb. But ask yourself this:

If before last season started you knew the Suns would reach the 2nd round of the playoffs(yes I know they were in the Finals) would you have thought they exceeded expectations? Probably yes, right? This is the point HW is making.

Now do we recalibrate expectations some at the end of the RS? Of course. But did we have a bunch of posters on this board/media members insisting the Lakers were still the favorites despite a 7 seed and injured stars? Yep. So would Phoenix losing to the Lakers have failed to meet expectations?

[wolves_89]

Read on Twitter

I had few questions about the situation. If Simmons showed up would the Sixers have to release the payment? If they didn't, could Simmons sue them for breach of contract? Once the money is released would Simmons walk out again?

[HartfordWhalers]

In the last four years, they have come in 1st, 6th, 3rd, and 3rd in the regular season. They successfully win a lot of regular season games.

But aren’t they trying to build the team to win a ring? PHI has failed to reach the East Coast Finals, let alone play for a ring.

...

PHI has not struggled to build successful regular season teams with Simmons. They have however failed to meet playoff expectations with those teams.

What was the actual playoff expectations of those teams?

Looking at it I see based off vegas win totals before the season started:
20-21: expected ECS made ECS
19-20: expected ECF made 1st round; underperformed 2 rounds {Note this was in bubble and Simmons was injured in the playoffs}
18-19: expected ECS made ECS
17-18: expected 1st round made ECS

So, using what i think is a solid basis for expectations, it would look like the Sixers have underperfomed in the playoffs is either based off:
1) The Sixers actually overperforming in the regular season and then performing to expectations in the playoffs.
2) A single bubble playoff when Simmons was injured; which would be a weird critique of Simmons.

It's fun to make the numbers say that a 1 seed losing to a 5 seed isn't failing to meet expectations.

Were they supposed to be a #1 seed? (No, nor a #2 seed either.)

The were a team expected to come in 3rd in the regular season and lose in the ECS to a Bucks or Nets team.

Instead the did better than expected in the regular season , and this is being viewed as justification for saying they did worse than expected in the playoffs.

[toooskies]

What was the actual playoff expectations of those teams?

Looking at it I see based off vegas win totals before the season started:
20-21: expected ECS made ECS
19-20: expected ECF made 1st round; underperformed 2 rounds {Note this was in bubble and Simmons was injured in the playoffs}
18-19: expected ECS made ECS
17-18: expected 1st round made ECS

So, using what i think is a solid basis for expectations, it would look like the Sixers have underperfomed in the playoffs is either based off:
1) The Sixers actually overperforming in the regular season and then performing to expectations in the playoffs.
2) A single bubble playoff when Simmons was injured; which would be a weird critique of Simmons.

It's fun to make the numbers say that a 1 seed losing to a 5 seed isn't failing to meet expectations.

This whole argument is pretty dumb. But ask yourself this:

If before last season started you knew the Suns would reach the 2nd round of the playoffs(yes I know they were in the Finals) would you have thought they exceeded expectations? Probably yes, right? This is the point HW is making.

Now do we recalibrate expectations some at the end of the RS? Of course. But did we have a bunch of posters on this board/media members insisting the Lakers were still the favorites despite a 7 seed and injured stars? Yep. So would Phoenix losing to the Lakers have failed to meet expectations?

No one insisted the Hawks were the favorites. They wouldn't be the favorites given the 2022 win projections, either. And neither team overhauled their rosters in the offseason. Philly lost to a team perceived both then and now to be worse than them. And the coach, the best player on the team, and the media all placed the blame squarely on Simmons. Which is why we have this whole debacle.

[toooskies]

Would Mitchell + Barnes to CLE, Sexton + Love to PHI and Ben to SAC be possible? w/ SAC moving a FRP or two to PHI as well?

If Philly is taking Sexton + Love + picks, Cleveland might cut them out, but Mitchell + Barnes is a good return there too.

But I don't think Philly is taking Love under any circumstances.

[Texas Chuck]

No one insisted the Hawks were the favorites. They wouldn't be the favorites given the 2022 win projections, either. And neither team overhauled their rosters in the offseason. Philly lost to a team perceived both then and now to be worse than them. And the coach, the best player on the team, and the media all placed the blame squarely on Simmons. Which is why we have this whole debacle.

This is fine.

I'm simply pointing out that HW was talking about expectations from a different starting point.

Both perspectives can be correct.

If you want to focus only on your belief that they should have beat the Hawks and that it is because of Simmons, whether in reality(for the record the Sixers outscored the Hawks with Simmons on the court in that series) or even in just the perception of Doc, Embiid, and the media, you are certainly free to do that. I'm not here to tell you that's an incorrect framing.

Nor am I telling Whalers his framing is incorrect.

[HornetJail]

Here's an idea that also includes Beal->Atlanta. Has to be done when this year's FAs are trade eligible.

PHI - Ben Simmons, Furkan Kormaz, Georges Niang for John Collins, Patrick Beverley, Jaden McDaniels, Cam Reddish, Lou Williams, rights to swap 2023 1sts with MIN

ATL - John Collins, Cam Reddish, Kevin Huerter, Lou Williams, 2023 1st unp, 2025 1st (lotto prot to 2028) for Bradley Beal (signs max extension), Montrezl Harrell

WAS - Bradley Beal, Montrezl Harrell for 2022 MIN 1st, 2023 ATL 1st, 2024 MIN 1st, 2025 ATL 1st, Kevin Huerter, Malik Beasley, Furkan Korkmaz, Jake Layman

MIN - Jaden McDaniels, Malik Beasley, Jake Layman, Patrick Beverley, 2022 1st, 2024 1st, swap with PHI 2023 for Ben Simmons

PHI: End the Simmons saga, and pick up a really good player in Collins, a couple interesting prospects and a future pick swap.
Maxey/Beverley/Milton
Green/Curry/Williams
Harris/Thybulle/Reddish
Collins/McDaniels
Embiid/Drummond

ATL: Get a true co-star with Trae, creating a ridiculously potent backcourt.
Trae/Wright
Beal/Bogdanovic
Hunter/Hill
Gallinari/Harrell/Johnson
Capela/Okongwu

WAS: start the rebuild with 4 picks from ATL and MIN, a decent young contributor in Huerter and Beasley. Hard to really ask for much more if Beal doesn't indicate he'll re-sign with WAS.
Dinwiddie/Holiday/Neto
Beasley/Huerter/Kork
KCP/Deni/Kispert
Rui/Bertans/Kuzma
Gafford/Bryant

MIN: It's been done to death tbh... Simmons is the perfect complement to Simmons and they're buying somewhat low. Depth becomes a problem, but there are FAs out there.
Russell/McLaughlin
Edwards/Nowell/Bolmaro
Prince/Okogie
Simmons/Vanderbilt
Towns/Reid

[Lovetron Joe]

Here's an idea that also includes Beal->Atlanta. Has to be done when this year's FAs are trade eligible.

PHI - Ben Simmons, Furkan Kormaz, Georges Niang for John Collins, Patrick Beverley, Jaden McDaniels, Cam Reddish, Lou Williams, rights to swap 2023 1sts with MIN

ATL - John Collins, Cam Reddish, Kevin Huerter, Lou Williams, 2023 1st unp, 2025 1st (lotto prot to 2028) for Bradley Beal (signs max extension), Montrezl Harrell

WAS - Bradley Beal, Montrezl Harrell for 2022 MIN 1st, 2023 ATL 1st, 2024 MIN 1st, 2025 ATL 1st, Kevin Huerter, Malik Beasley, Furkan Korkmaz, Jake Layman

MIN - Jaden McDaniels, Malik Beasley, Jake Layman, Patrick Beverley, 2022 1st, 2024 1st, swap with PHI 2023 for Ben Simmons

PHI: End the Simmons saga, and pick up a really good player in Collins, a couple interesting prospects and a future pick swap.
Maxey/Beverley/Milton
Green/Curry/Williams
Harris/Thybulle/Reddish
Collins/McDaniels
Embiid/Drummond

ATL: Get a true co-star with Trae, creating a ridiculously potent backcourt.
Trae/Wright
Beal/Bogdanovic
Hunter/Hill
Gallinari/Harrell/Johnson
Capela/Okongwu

WAS: start the rebuild with 4 picks from ATL and MIN, a decent young contributor in Huerter and Beasley. Hard to really ask for much more if Beal doesn't indicate he'll re-sign with WAS.
Dinwiddie/Holiday/Neto
Beasley/Huerter/Kork
KCP/Deni/Kispert
Rui/Bertans/Kuzma
Gafford/Bryant

MIN: It's been done to death tbh... Simmons is the perfect complement to Simmons and they're buying somewhat low. Depth becomes a problem, but there are FAs out there.
Russell/McLaughlin
Edwards/Nowell/Bolmaro
Prince/Okogie
Simmons/Vanderbilt
Towns/Reid

The low level Minny players and a couple of picks for Simmons will not happen.

[DroseReturnChi]

PHI: End the Simmons saga, and pick up a really good player in Collins

heres the problem. nobody in the league thinks collins has this trade value very overrated here as he couldnt command a max yet has max trade value. a big who cant create nor elite shooter is useless. morey probably has same view. even worse than brogdon offer which should be the bar minimum.

[Ballerhogger]

Given the fact they will withhold payment there’s no rush to trade him. Right now media on morey’s side. He’s going be sixer until the break.

[basketballwacko2]

All this talk about building around Simmons is mute, he is not a guy you should try to "build around." He's a good player but he's flawed and that we all know is shooting ability. His career 3pt percentage is 15% and on few attempts, because he knows he can't hit them. But his free throw % is only 59.7%, that's pretty bad kinda Dwight Howard, DeAndre Jordan like.

He's a great passer and good rebounder. He has great size if he's a point guard, but his lack of shooting means you really can't play him at SG or SF. Can he play center? Someone was talking about surrounding him with shooters, IDK if this would work but install him as the center on a run and gun team with a good shot blocker at PF who can shoot, don't ask Ben to shoot much more than elbow jumpers and dunks and let him play defense and pass.

I think the whole thing with him and Embiid together has been a flawed plan. 76ers need to get this over and done cut loses and move on. If they can get some picks and young players or quality vets and some long term cap relief that would be great. But this situation is not good for the team.

[Sportfan73]

PHI: End the Simmons saga, and pick up a really good player in Collins

heres the problem. nobody in the league thinks collins has this trade value very overrated here as he couldnt command a max yet has max trade value. a big who cant create nor elite shooter is useless. morey probably has same view. even worse than brogdon offer which should be the bar minimum.

Speak of the devil https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2948953-brian-windhorst-pacers-a-sleeper-team-in-ben-simmons-trade-sweepstakes

[MoneyTalks41890]

PHI: End the Simmons saga, and pick up a really good player in Collins

heres the problem. nobody in the league thinks collins has this trade value very overrated here as he couldnt command a max yet has max trade value. a big who cant create nor elite shooter is useless. morey probably has same view. even worse than brogdon offer which should be the bar minimum.

Speak of the devil https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2948953-brian-windhorst-pacers-a-sleeper-team-in-ben-simmons-trade-sweepstakes

Brogdon is the best fit on the Philly side, but I think Sabonis has to go out and Turner stay for it to be viable for Indy. And Sabonis needs a third team.

[Ball4life32]

PHI: End the Simmons saga, and pick up a really good player in Collins

heres the problem. nobody in the league thinks collins has this trade value very overrated here as he couldnt command a max yet has max trade value. a big who cant create nor elite shooter is useless. morey probably has same view. even worse than brogdon offer which should be the bar minimum.

Yeah somehow so overrated and useless as the 2nd leading scorer on a team that just made the ECF at 23 years old. Not calling him an elite shooter but 40% from 3 the last 2 years (even if not on huge volume) and was one of the better and improved mid range shooters last year. Hawks +8.2 with Collins on/off in the playoffs…he is absolutely not useless by anyone actually watching hawks games.

[Texas Chuck]

PHI: End the Simmons saga, and pick up a really good player in Collins

heres the problem. nobody in the league thinks collins has this trade value very overrated here as he couldnt command a max yet has max trade value. a big who cant create nor elite shooter is useless. morey probably has same view. even worse than brogdon offer which should be the bar minimum.

Yeah somehow so overrated and useless as the 2nd leading scorer on a team that just made the ECF at 23 years old. Not calling him an elite shooter but 40% from 3 the last 2 years (even if not on huge volume) and was one of the better and improved mid range shooters last year. Hawks +8.2 with Collins on the floor in the playoffs…he is absolutely not useless by anyone actually watching hawks games.

Just ignore it. We have a number of posters who confuse trade value being reduced as salary goes up with their value on the court which remains the same. We saw everyone trashing Paul as a player when he was always great. We still see people calling Horford washed when he remains quite useful, etc...

Collins is a talented player with clear utility. Is he enough to add a few minor assets and get a Beal who agrees to extend? I don't personally think so, but he's far from useless, so far that we shouldn't waste any time entertaining the opposite.

[basketballwacko2]

heres the problem. nobody in the league thinks collins has this trade value very overrated here as he couldnt command a max yet has max trade value. a big who cant create nor elite shooter is useless. morey probably has same view. even worse than brogdon offer which should be the bar minimum.

Speak of the devil https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2948953-brian-windhorst-pacers-a-sleeper-team-in-ben-simmons-trade-sweepstakes

Brogdon is the best fit on the Philly side, but I think Sabonis has to go out and Turner stay for it to be viable for Indy. And Sabonis needs a third team.

I agree with you here but since I'm a Pacer fan I truly hope that this does not happen. I don't see Simmons in Indiana long term and the fact that he's demanding a trade creeps me out because, "How long until he decides to do it again?"

[the_process]

PHI: End the Simmons saga, and pick up a really good player in Collins

heres the problem. nobody in the league thinks collins has this trade value very overrated here as he couldnt command a max yet has max trade value. a big who cant create nor elite shooter is useless. morey probably has same view. even worse than brogdon offer which should be the bar minimum.

Yeah somehow so overrated and useless as the 2nd leading scorer on a team that just made the ECF at 23 years old. Not calling him an elite shooter but 40% from 3 the last 2 years (even if not on huge volume) and was one of the better and improved mid range shooters last year. Hawks +8.2 with Collins on/off in the playoffs…he is absolutely not useless by anyone actually watching hawks games.

This board rarely speaks in terms of on court value. It is about discussing trade value. Collins’ trade value with his contract and skill set is not that high.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Speak of the devil https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2948953-brian-windhorst-pacers-a-sleeper-team-in-ben-simmons-trade-sweepstakes

Brogdon is the best fit on the Philly side, but I think Sabonis has to go out and Turner stay for it to be viable for Indy. And Sabonis needs a third team.

I agree with you here but since I'm a Pacer fan I truly hope that this does not happen. I don't see Simmons in Indiana long term and the fact that he's demanding a trade creeps me out because, "How long until he decides to do it again?"

For sure. Carlisle plays hardball which works with less dramatic players. And who know about Simmons in Indiana. And I would want to put Brogdon, Simmons, Turner together, but Brogdon is also the best piece for Philly, so that feels hard to reconcile.