Jordan v Lebron - A civilised conversation

[LukaTheGOAT]

You say these metrics are useless, despite having 82 games plus complete playoff data.

Square2020 only had 20% of a season, and it is more reliable based off "you sniff test."

Lol, he has less than 5 times the total data to work with.

Forgive my ignorance, are you saying D-PIPM is based on actual line up stint data from the 80s? Like the founder of the stat got access to all that film and went through each game to calculate it?

No, but he has on/off estimates that go back past 97. He doesn't have exact on/off data, but through the use of various regressions, etc., he has put together estimates.

[VanWest82]

You say these metrics are useless, despite having 82 games plus complete playoff data.

Square2020 only had 20% of a season, and it is more reliable based off "you sniff test."

Lol, he has less than 5 times the total data to work with.

Forgive my ignorance, are you saying D-PIPM is based on actual line up stint data from the 80s? Like the founder of the stat got access to all that film and went through each game to calculate it?

No, but he has on/off estimates that go back past 97. He doesn't have exact on/off data, but through the use of various regressions, etc., he has put together estimates.

Then it's a no for me, bud. Sorry.

Again, I'm not saying Hakeem shouldn't have won just that D-PIPM or D-RAPTOR or whatever isn't going to tell you he should've won.

[Djoker]

i dont have a issue with people preffering Jordan defensively, but rather with using the dpoy as a indisputable argument for it

specially because lebron got 2nd twice so is not like he was not a player who was not considered dpoy worthy by voters if that is the reasoning

I think Lebron deserved all his dpoy votes and accolades. At his best he's a terrific defender and on the same level as prime MJ imo. They've different players. MJ was a better man defender but Lebron was more versatile. MJ had the higher motor. Lebron was/is smarter about not playing very hard when he doesn't absolutely have to and then going full tilt in big moments. I think MJ had more high caliber defensive seasons despite the shorter career.

no issue with that, just as í comments, has a issue with using the dpoy as a shut down argument that sometimes happens

to me it would be like someone bringing up that duncan never won a dpoy as a shut down argument in a garnett vs duncan defensive comparision

The DPOY win is not a shutdown argument. But MJ also had more top 5 finishes and has more All-Defensive teams. MJ has more defensive accolades across the board including those voted by head coaches and the ones voted by the media.

[Gregoire]

Very interesting quote from poster form this forum:

"Lebron, to me, is a basketball bully. Near impossible to beat when he knows that he has the upper hand, but vulnerable when a challenger plants a seed of doubt. A great player with great skill. Near GOAT. But someone who does not relish being challenged. Instead he relishes being annointed. He wants greatness to be bestowed. He seeks the easiest path to victory, and winces at the thought of struggle in spite of physical and BBIQ superiority."

Thoughts?

[falcolombardi]

Very interesting quote from poster form this forum:

"Lebron, to me, is a basketball bully. Near impossible to beat when he knows that he has the upper hand, but vulnerable when a challenger plants a seed of doubt. A great player with great skill. Near GOAT. But someone who does not relish being challenged. Instead he relishes being annointed. He wants greatness to be bestowed. He seeks the easiest path to victory, and winces at the thought of struggle in spite of physical and BBIQ superiority."

Thoughts?

if anythingh lebron most iconic moments are comebacks and wins in insane pressure situations

2012 celtics game and first ring or 2016 comeback vs warriors, the 2013 finals also was lebron improving amd starting to dominated -after- struggling at first and spurs gaining the upperhand...so not quite?

that is not to say lebron mental game always was strong (2011) but that comment seems to do too much armchair psychoanalysis

[Cavsfansince84]

Very interesting quote from poster form this forum:

"Lebron, to me, is a basketball bully. Near impossible to beat when he knows that he has the upper hand, but vulnerable when a challenger plants a seed of doubt. A great player with great skill. Near GOAT. But someone who does not relish being challenged. Instead he relishes being annointed. He wants greatness to be bestowed. He seeks the easiest path to victory, and winces at the thought of struggle in spite of physical and BBIQ superiority."

Thoughts?

I feel like that was more of a quote for pre 2012 LeBron. Not that its 100% truth but I think there's a point where he stopped expecting anything to be handed to him and started making it happen for himself. Since then he's been as good as anyone in terms of taking on challenges in series and finding a way to win quite often.

[Texas Chuck]

Very interesting quote from poster form this forum:

"Lebron, to me, is a basketball bully. Near impossible to beat when he knows that he has the upper hand, but vulnerable when a challenger plants a seed of doubt. A great player with great skill. Near GOAT. But someone who does not relish being challenged. Instead he relishes being annointed. He wants greatness to be bestowed. He seeks the easiest path to victory, and winces at the thought of struggle in spite of physical and BBIQ superiority."

Thoughts?

Sure looks like an exaggerated narrative and I'd not be surprised to learn this poster has a known love for another player frequently compared to Lebron.

I mean it's absurd on its very surface. This guy who plays huge minutes and just kept dragging his every team into the Finals despite all kinds of adversity supposedly just wilts at struggle or effort?

I mean it just doesn't match the historical record of Lebron in any way.

[falcolombardi]

Very interesting quote from poster form this forum:

"Lebron, to me, is a basketball bully. Near impossible to beat when he knows that he has the upper hand, but vulnerable when a challenger plants a seed of doubt. A great player with great skill. Near GOAT. But someone who does not relish being challenged. Instead he relishes being annointed. He wants greatness to be bestowed. He seeks the easiest path to victory, and winces at the thought of struggle in spite of physical and BBIQ superiority."

Thoughts?

Sure looks like an exaggerated narrative and I'd not be surprised to learn this poster has a known love for another player frequently compared to Lebron.

I mean it's absurd on its very surface. This guy who plays huge minutes and just kept dragging his every team into the Finals despite all kinds of adversity supposedly just wilts at struggle or effort?

I mean it just doesn't match the historical record of Lebron in any way.

i remember a post about how lebron is better as series go on for the most part and worst at the start of them, his main problem actually being how he starts

it may have been sansterre or someone else who looked at that

and empirically it fits in how a lot of series went, 2016 finals, 2012 vs boston, 2013 finals, etc

[No-more-rings]

Very interesting quote from poster form this forum:

"Lebron, to me, is a basketball bully. Near impossible to beat when he knows that he has the upper hand, but vulnerable when a challenger plants a seed of doubt. A great player with great skill. Near GOAT. But someone who does not relish being challenged. Instead he relishes being annointed. He wants greatness to be bestowed. He seeks the easiest path to victory, and winces at the thought of struggle in spite of physical and BBIQ superiority."

Thoughts?

Others have given input already, but here's what I'll say. I think in Lebron's case it's interesting that he never really faced off against another top 10 all time type guy with both in their primes. KD and Curry are probably closest things to that, that he will have seen but I don't really think they're there. Bird and Magic had to constantly deal with one other, Wilt and Russell the same. Shaq and Duncan had to deal with each other a lot. Jordan didn't really have that either aside from the 91 finals, and if you include the 86 and 87 playoffs where his teams weren't ready yet. So it's not something exclusive to Lebron, but I do sort of wonder a bit with him how he would respond if he was constantly facing someone every other year in the playoffs that posed a serious threat to his throne. Like I said Curry and KD are ATG, but i don't see them quite as that. It's not something I see as a criticism, instead I just wonder if his legacy would be the same since he likely wouldn't be seen as the consensus best player in the league for like 10 years or whatever it was.

[Cavsfansince84]

Others have given input already, but here's what I'll say. I think in Lebron's case it's interesting that he never really faced off against another top 10 all time type guy with both in their primes. KD and Curry are probably closest things to that, that he will have seen but I don't really think they're there. Bird and Magic had to constantly deal with one other, Wilt and Russell the same. Shaq and Duncan had to deal with each other a lot. Jordan didn't really have that either aside from the 91 finals, and if you include the 86 and 87 playoffs where his teams weren't ready yet. So it's not something exclusive to Lebron, but I do sort of wonder a bit with him how he would respond if he was constantly facing someone every other year in the playoffs that posed a serious threat to his throne. Like I said Curry and KD are ATG, but i don't see them quite as that. It's not something I see as a criticism, instead I just wonder if his legacy would be the same since he likely wouldn't be seen as the consensus best player in the league for like 10 years or whatever it was.

My response to what you said above(which is overall a good post imo) would be that I think the 2016 finals is what changed all of that. Had Steph coming off his monstrous rs been able to finish out that finals with all the hype he had at that time which then also probably keeps KD away and Steph takes all that momentum forward up until now I think we'd think of him differently. Because without KD there he might also go on to win another mvp +fmvp. So I think that LeBron winning that finals changed how we perceive Steph. Who even now is considered top 20-25 all time but had he won that series would probably be seen as already close to top 10. Overall I think LeBron went against pretty stiff competition when you factor in Duncan 3 times, Dirk and KD+Steph.

[colts18]

LeBron did face a lot of great players in their primes.

2007-
Duncan: Top 10 player all-time. Best player in the league. Still in his prime

2008-
Garnett: Top 20 player. Still in his late prime
Pierce/Allen: Top 50-60 players in their late prime

2009:
Dwight- Hall of Famer in his prime

2010, 2011, 2012:
Paul Pierce- Hall of Famer. Not in his prime but still effective

2011:
Rose- MVP. Dominates him
Dirk- Top 20 player in his absolute prime

2012-2014:
Paul George- Hall of Famer. faced him 3 times in a row. MJ never played against a SG as good as Paul George.

2012:
Carmelo Anthony- in his prime

2012:
Durant- Top 15 player in his prime

2015-2018:
Curry- Top 15 player in his prime.

2017-2018:
Durant- Top 15 player in his prime

2020:
Harden- Top 20 in his prime

2020:
Jokic- MVP player in his prime

2020:
Lillard- ATG PG in his prime

2020:
Butler- Hall of Famer in his prime

That's a lot of Hall of Famers in their primes.

[70sFan]

Others have given input already, but here's what I'll say. I think in Lebron's case it's interesting that he never really faced off against another top 10 all time type guy with both in their primes.

Would you call James pre-prime in 2007? Because Duncan certainly was in his prime.

[No-more-rings]

Others have given input already, but here's what I'll say. I think in Lebron's case it's interesting that he never really faced off against another top 10 all time type guy with both in their primes.

Would you call James pre-prime in 2007? Because Duncan certainly was in his prime.

Oh definitely yeah. He was only 22. No one is in their prime at that age. I know he was in his 4th season, but looking back he was too raw offensively for me to consider that his prime.

[70sFan]

Others have given input already, but here's what I'll say. I think in Lebron's case it's interesting that he never really faced off against another top 10 all time type guy with both in their primes.

Would you call James pre-prime in 2007? Because Duncan certainly was in his prime.

Oh definitely yeah. He was only 22. No one is in their prime at that age. I know he was in his 4th season, but looking back he was too raw offensively for me to consider that his prime.

Fair enough, after all it was probably James 4th worst season of his career (only above 2004, 2005 and 2019). I think it was the closest you can find in James career, though some people entertain the idea that Curry is top 10 player ever level.

[colts18]

Others have given input already, but here's what I'll say. I think in Lebron's case it's interesting that he never really faced off against another top 10 all time type guy with both in their primes.

Would you call James pre-prime in 2007? Because Duncan certainly was in his prime.

Oh definitely yeah. He was only 22. No one is in their prime at that age. I know he was in his 4th season, but looking back he was too raw offensively for me to consider that his prime.

Here is the top 15 list from RealGM's last top 100 list:

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki

First off, LeBron and MJ can't play themselves so they only have 9 potential top 10 players they could face instead of 10. 2nd, None of the players in the top 10 was facing other top 10 players in their primes with the exception of Wilt/Russell, Magic/Bird, Duncan/Shaq, and Kareem vs Wilt/Bird. The list is evenly spread between 60's, 80's, 90's, and 00's players. At most there were about 2-3 top 10 players in the league at a time.

Third, the comparison isn't fair to Lebron because his competitors are still not finished yet. Curry and Durant still have a shot to make the top 10. Harden and Giannis? still have an outside shot at making the top 10.

[Cavsfansince84]

Fair enough, after all it was probably James 4th worst season of his career (only above 2004, 2005 and 2019). I think it was the closest you can find in James career, though some people entertain the idea that Curry is top 10 player ever level.

I don't think that's much of a reach to make really. Steph from 2015-2021(outside of when he was injured) when LeBron faced him is pretty comparable for that stretch to many of the guys considered top 10 to 15 all time.

[No-more-rings]

Others have given input already, but here's what I'll say. I think in Lebron's case it's interesting that he never really faced off against another top 10 all time type guy with both in their primes. KD and Curry are probably closest things to that, that he will have seen but I don't really think they're there. Bird and Magic had to constantly deal with one other, Wilt and Russell the same. Shaq and Duncan had to deal with each other a lot. Jordan didn't really have that either aside from the 91 finals, and if you include the 86 and 87 playoffs where his teams weren't ready yet. So it's not something exclusive to Lebron, but I do sort of wonder a bit with him how he would respond if he was constantly facing someone every other year in the playoffs that posed a serious threat to his throne. Like I said Curry and KD are ATG, but i don't see them quite as that. It's not something I see as a criticism, instead I just wonder if his legacy would be the same since he likely wouldn't be seen as the consensus best player in the league for like 10 years or whatever it was.

My response to what you said above(which is overall a good post imo) would be that I think the 2016 finals is what changed all of that. Had Steph coming off his monstrous rs been able to finish out that finals with all the hype he had at that time which then also probably keeps KD away and Steph takes all that momentum forward up until now I think we'd think of him differently. Because without KD there he might also go on to win another mvp +fmvp. So I think that LeBron winning that finals changed how we perceive Steph. Who even now is considered top 20-25 all time but had he won that series would probably be seen as already close to top 10. Overall I think LeBron went against pretty stiff competition when you factor in Duncan 3 times, Dirk and KD+Steph.

His competition was definitely stiff, but i felt like he was rarely challenged on an individual level in a series. Maybe he was really that great and it wouldn't have mattered, but It's really crazy when looking at his prime lets say from 08 0r 09 up to the present, I think the 2011 finals was the only time he was probably outplayed by someone else. Like other than that series, can you think of one where someone from the other team outplayed him? It's a testament to his greatness, but I do wonder if his goat case gets slightly inflated because of it. I'm not including a year like 2007 or 2021 when he was old and injured. All I'm saying is i really doubt that would be the case if went against someone like Shaq, MJ or Kareem multiple times.

[Texas Chuck]

You can absolutely be in your prime at age 22 btw. Some of you are both far too rigid and arbitrary in deciding how to define certain seasons and which seasons have merit.

If the standard for a Lebron season is peak Lebron, okay. But that's not a reasonable standard. 2007 Lebron was a very high level season. Who cares how many Lebron seasons are better than that? That just tells us how great Lebron is not the opposite as is being argued.

We used to do this with Tim Duncan where guys wanting to compare Kobe or KG to him would discount his 30's seasons because he played reduced minutes and took a lessor offense role. Yet Tim Duncan continued to have elite defensive impact that entire time and was the best player on some great teams.

2007 Lebron was a great season and 2007 Tim Duncan was a great season. Suggesting that 98 Mike versus 98 Mailman is better than this just doesn't hold up. Plus again its irrelevant. Players don't get to control who they play against.

[falcolombardi]

Others have given input already, but here's what I'll say. I think in Lebron's case it's interesting that he never really faced off against another top 10 all time type guy with both in their primes. KD and Curry are probably closest things to that, that he will have seen but I don't really think they're there. Bird and Magic had to constantly deal with one other, Wilt and Russell the same. Shaq and Duncan had to deal with each other a lot. Jordan didn't really have that either aside from the 91 finals, and if you include the 86 and 87 playoffs where his teams weren't ready yet. So it's not something exclusive to Lebron, but I do sort of wonder a bit with him how he would respond if he was constantly facing someone every other year in the playoffs that posed a serious threat to his throne. Like I said Curry and KD are ATG, but i don't see them quite as that. It's not something I see as a criticism, instead I just wonder if his legacy would be the same since he likely wouldn't be seen as the consensus best player in the league for like 10 years or whatever it was.

My response to what you said above(which is overall a good post imo) would be that I think the 2016 finals is what changed all of that. Had Steph coming off his monstrous rs been able to finish out that finals with all the hype he had at that time which then also probably keeps KD away and Steph takes all that momentum forward up until now I think we'd think of him differently. Because without KD there he might also go on to win another mvp +fmvp. So I think that LeBron winning that finals changed how we perceive Steph. Who even now is considered top 20-25 all time but had he won that series would probably be seen as already close to top 10. Overall I think LeBron went against pretty stiff competition when you factor in Duncan 3 times, Dirk and KD+Steph.

His competition was definitely stiff, but i felt like he was rarely challenged on an individual level in a series. Maybe he was really that great and it wouldn't have mattered, but It's really crazy when looking at his prime lets say from 08 0r 09 up to the present, I think the 2011 finals was the only time he was probably outplayed by someone else. Like other than that series, can you think of one where someone from the other team outplayed him? It's a testament to his greatness, but I do wonder if his goat case gets slightly inflated because of it. I'm not including a year like 2007 or 2021 when he was old and injured. All I'm saying is i really doubt that would be the case if went against someone like Shaq, MJ or Kareem multiple times.

sure, but does it matter that much? this is somethingh i see often

evaluating players based on who they beat as opposed on how good the team they beat was

under that logic the 2006 heat with prime wade would be a much tougher opponent than the 2013 spurs with post prime duncan which i dont think anyone would agree with for example

[Cavsfansince84]

His competition was definitely stiff, but i felt like he was rarely challenged on an individual level in a series. Maybe he was really that great and it wouldn't have mattered, but It's really crazy when looking at his prime lets say from 08 0r 09 up to the present, I think the 2011 finals was the only time he was probably outplayed by someone else. Like other than that series, can you think of one where someone from the other team outplayed him? It's a testament to his greatness, but I do wonder if his goat case gets slightly inflated because of it. I'm not including a year like 2007 or 2021 when he was old and injured. All I'm saying is i really doubt that would be the case if went against someone like Shaq, MJ or Kareem multiple times.

Well, I'd say he went up against some really great defenders(Kawhi twice when he was dpoy level, Iggy a few times and Bowen) along with some great defensive teams and then you have KD in 17 and 18. So overall that was very good competition. I think a lot of people make the case that KD outplayed him twice and Dirk in 2011 but other then that no one comes to mind for a given series. Duncan in 07 but that's pre prime LeBron. From 08-21 I can't think of anyone else. Butler came close but then dropped off while LeBron got fmvp.