Shams: Morey wants CJ + 3 FRP + 3 Pick Swaps for Simmons

[BNM]

https://www.blazersedge.com/platform/amp/2021/10/8/22716258/ben-simmons-trade-news-rumors-portland-trail-blazers-cj-mccollum-shams-sixers

And Neil said no. Anyone here still think Neil overvaluing CJ is the reason this trade hasn't happened? Morey wants a Harden like haul for a flawed, disgruntled head case who has vowed to never play for PHI again, yet the Neil haters will insist that Olshey is the one being unrealistic.

Like most here, I'm more than fine trading CJ, but no way do I mortgage 6 years of first round draft capital for Ben Simmons after what we just saw in the playoffs.

[Case2012]

I would do it in a heartbeat. Technically you’re only giving up 3 1st round picks because of the swaps. Roco is worth 2, nance is worth one but Simmons isn’t worth 3 plus CJ? No disrespect to CJ but I’ve seen this movie several times and it’s time to change things up. It’s absolutely worth it to add a dpoy candidate and elite playmaker. Why do we need first round picks anyways? For a rebuild when Lillard asks out because this team isn’t even close to a contender? Great mentality to have. If we really need late first round picks, I’m sure there’s a way to accomplish that.

[JasonStern]

Shams: Jason wants a date with Paige Spiranac

Nothing to see here.

[BlazersBroncos]

All comes down to protections. I want lotto protection on those picks to guard against the team not dramatically improving to contender status w/ Simmons and Dame still asking out in 1-2 years (Which is still the most likely end result IMO). If we can get lotto protection on all the picks and swaps, I would do it. We need to **** or get off the pot. The only way to contention is gambling with the future. If we are afraid to do that, we should come to terms with ourselves as a franchise and pivot the overall direction, starting with a Dame trade.

Right now this team is on a road to nowhere. Take the risk to improve or to rebuild. But for god sake take a risk.

[BNM]

I would do it in a heartbeat. Technically you’re only giving up 3 1st round picks because of the swaps. Roco is worth 2, nance is worth one but Simmons isn’t worth 3 plus CJ? No disrespect to CJ but I’ve seen this movie several times and it’s time to change things up. It’s absolutely worth it to add a dpoy candidate and elite playmaker. Why do we need first round picks anyways? For a rebuild when Lillard asks out because this team isn’t even close to a contender? Great mentality to have. If we really need late first round picks, I’m sure there’s a way to accomplish that.

I think you are severally understating what Morey is asking for and what Simmons brings.

First, it's not just 3 first round picks, it's 3 first round picks, plus 3 first round pick swaps, plus a 23 ppg scorer who shot over 40% from 3-point range. Comparing Morey's ask to what we gave up for RoCo and Nance is disingenuous to the point of being laughable. We did not give up 2 first round picks, 2 first round pick swaps and a 23 ppg scorer for Roco.

Second, Simmons is a good passer for a player his size, but he is not an elite playmaker. He averaged 6.9 apg playing 32 MPG at point guard. He played most of his minutes alongside Joel Embii (28.5 ppg), Tobias Harris (19.5 ppg), Danny Green (.405 3FG%) and Seth Curry (.450 3FG%), and yet only averaged 6.9 apg. The guys who are truly elite playmakers (Chris Paul, Luka Dincic, Nikola Jokic, etc.) averaged significcantly more assists, with lesser supporting casts.

Hell, CJ, who played most of his minutes next to a ball dominant PG averaged 4.7 apg by primarily running the PG position with a second unit of Carmelo Anthony, Anfernee Simons, Nassir Little, and when he wasn't starting, Enes Kanter. I'm not claiming CJ is nearly the playmaker Simmons is, but I also realize that Simmons had the ball in his hands as a primary playmaker WAY more than CJ did and also had MUCH better teammates to pass to. Simmons as an elite passer for a player his size, but not elite overall for a starting PG with an extremely strong supporting cast.

Concerning the picks and swaps, as you stated, POR already gave up 2 FRPs for RoCo and 1 for Nance. Add in 3 FRPs and 3 first round pick swaps and POR would have zero control over their FRPS for nine seasons. It's not just about rebuilding if we trade Dame (which I hope we never do), it's also about rebuilding after he retires. Do we really want to be looking at a future when Dame is 39 and we haven't had a decent FRP in nine years?

Simmons playoff performance and attitude are also huge red flags. He was totally unplayable in 4th quarters in the playoffs due to his inability and unwillingness to shoot. He's been in the league for four full seasons, is now 25 and has shown ZERO improvement in any of his weaknesses. What makes that worse is his attitude that he should be above criticism. If you don't want people criticizing your **** shooting, learn to shoot.

Yes, I'd take Simmons, if the price was right. It's not, at least not yet. Morey is trying to save face by requesting a Harden like haul for Ben Simmons. The problem is Ben Simmons is not James Harden, it's not close and it never will be. Yes, I think a CJ for Ben trade would better balance our roster and I'm hopeful that a strong leader like Dame can get more out of Simmons that what he's shown in PHI - especially in the playoffs, but CJ + 3 FRPs + 3 pick swaps for a flawed, disgruntled player on a super max contract who has shown he's unplayable when it matters the most is ridiculous.

[BlazersBroncos]

I honestly could care less if we lost 3 FRP and 3 FRP swaps as long as they all had lotto protection. I dont value non-lotto picks that highly and think the likely production from a pick in that range can, 8/10 times, be replaced by a vet min level signing (IE: Tony Snell, Cody Zeller as we did this past offseason) and surpassed by a good MLE signing.

Protection covers our bases if Dame still asks out, which is absolutely something we should still ponder if we add Simmons. For that reason, they 100% must have lotto protection. I am in no way convinced adding Simmons equates to Dame playing out his current deal. We need to cover our bases. Protect them and its a go for me.

In the end I bet we could get them down to CJ, 2 FRP (Lotto Protected) and 2 FRP Swaps (Lotto Protected). Thats a quick and easy 'yes' for me. But, again, those protections mean everything.

[Sinobas]

Maybe a couple of top 10 protected picks....

[Sinobas]

Maybe they just don't want CJ very much. If it's true that the Pacers are offering Brogdon, we probably have no shot anyway. I wouldn't take CJ over Brogdon (who can score and play defense).

[Case2012]

Olshey sucks at drafting in the first round, let's acknowledge his record is iffy at best. Give him the 43rd pick for some cash and he'll get you a decent roll player 2 or 3 years down the line, but I would trade all of our youth for vet minimum or mle range vets that have proven track records and playoff experience. Unfortunately free agency is over and NO believes every pick he makes is a future Hof so it's a moot point. But yeah, it comes down to results. Idc what our draft future looks like when the window is now. Jrue holiday just went to the bucks for an absurd package and they won the ring, so **** it. But that's me. I've been waiting 8 years for olshey to make an all in move since his "asset acquisition" bs. Deal with the future in the future. Focus on winning a ring when you have a top 10 player now, who btw might leave and at that point you're gonna get a boatload of picks anyways. Simmons on the blazers is better than CJ is. This **** just feels like dick measuring between GM's most of the time and it certainly feels that way right now.

[kyphi]

Impartial opinion says even though Simmons is very good and was made the scape goat (imo), that is too much.

[BNM]

Olshey sucks at drafting in the first round, let's acknowledge his record is iffy at best. Give him the 43rd pick for some cash and he'll get you a decent roll player 2 or 3 years down the line, but I would trade all of our youth for vet minimum or mle range vets that have proven track records and playoff experience. Unfortunately free agency is over and NO believes every pick he makes is a future Hof so it's a moot point. But yeah, it comes down to results. Idc what our draft future looks like when the window is now. Jrue holiday just went to the bucks for an absurd package and they won the ring, so **** it. But that's me. I've been waiting 8 years for olshey to make an all in move since his "asset acquisition" bs. Deal with the future in the future. Focus on winning a ring when you have a top 10 player now, who btw might leave and at that point you're gonna get a boatload of picks anyways. Simmons on the blazers is better than CJ is. This **** just feels like dick measuring between GM's most of the time and it certainly feels that way right now.

Does it really matter if Olshey "sucks at drafting in the first round"? Do you really think he's going to be the POR GM 6, 7, 8, 9 years from now when we owe all our picks to PHI?

Reduce the number of picks and swaps and put heavy protections on the picks and I'm in.

Yes, Simmons gives us a better balanced roster and improves our defense, but given the way he completely disappears in the playoffs, there is no guarantee that we get past the first round if we make the swap. Hell, PHI with the No. 1 seed in the East and a MUCH better roster couldn't get past the 2nd round and Simmons was the number one reason why. Comparing playoff Jrue to playoff Ben is a joke. Jrue is at his best in the playoffs, Ben disappears (and then pouts that everyone who speaks the truth is picking on him).

[DeBlazerRiddem]

There is no way Morey is asking for 3 picks and 3 swaps but allows us to protect them. That offer is about unprotected picks, hoping that Simmons doesn't improve us at all, is a distraction that bolts to LA as soon as Klutch can make that happen, which causes Lillard to ask out because we squandered any final ability to put a team around him. He isnt giving us a golden ticket, he is asking us to sign off on our own execution. He's hoping Olshey is dumb and desperate and is willing to mortgage the Blazers future for a poisoned chalice.

[Norm2953]

If they are starting to talk, this could get done when the price is 2 picks + 1 swap. They could tweak
the deal if the Sixers wanted to include Maxey in the deal for Simons.

[BNM]

There is no way Morey is asking for 3 picks and 3 swaps but allows us to protect them. That offer is about unprotected picks, hoping that Simmons doesn't improve us at all, is a distraction that bolts to LA as soon as Klutch can make that happen, which causes Lillard to ask out because we squandered any final ability to put a team around him. He isnt giving us a golden ticket, he is asking us to sign off on our own execution. He's hoping Olshey is dumb and desperate and is willing to mortgage the Blazers future for a poisoned chalice.

All true, but if this doesn't happen the usual narrative of some posters that Neil overvalues CJ is sure to pop up multiple times.

Or better still, the absurd narrative some have been pushing that Neil would rather trade Dame than CJ because Dame wields more power within the organization than Neil does.

[BNM]

Thread on this topic in the General Board: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2127908

Interesting to read the comments from non-POR and non-PHI fans. Most think POR would be stupid to take this deal.

[Case2012]

Olshey sucks at drafting in the first round, let's acknowledge his record is iffy at best. Give him the 43rd pick for some cash and he'll get you a decent roll player 2 or 3 years down the line, but I would trade all of our youth for vet minimum or mle range vets that have proven track records and playoff experience. Unfortunately free agency is over and NO believes every pick he makes is a future Hof so it's a moot point. But yeah, it comes down to results. Idc what our draft future looks like when the window is now. Jrue holiday just went to the bucks for an absurd package and they won the ring, so **** it. But that's me. I've been waiting 8 years for olshey to make an all in move since his "asset acquisition" bs. Deal with the future in the future. Focus on winning a ring when you have a top 10 player now, who btw might leave and at that point you're gonna get a boatload of picks anyways. Simmons on the blazers is better than CJ is. This **** just feels like dick measuring between GM's most of the time and it certainly feels that way right now.

Does it really matter if Olshey "sucks at drafting in the first round"? Do you really think he's going to be the POR GM 6, 7, 8, 9 years from now when we owe all our picks to PHI?

Reduce the number of picks and swaps and put heavy protections on the picks and I'm in.

Yes, Simmons gives us a better balanced roster and improves our defense, but given the way he completely disappears in the playoffs, there is no guarantee that we get past the first round if we make the swap. Hell, PHI with the No. 1 seed in the East and a MUCH better roster couldn't get past the 2nd round and Simmons was the number one reason why. Comparing playoff Jrue to playoff Ben is a joke. Jrue is at his best in the playoffs, Ben disappears (and then pouts that everyone who speaks the truth is picking on him).

WTH are you talking about phi having all our picks 9 years from now? Dude, it would be 3 picks and 3 swaps, meaning we still have 3 first round picks. I would prefer it be 2 each so we could use those for other moves down the line obviously but at this point If that’s what it takes then that’s what it takes. Regardless, when we blow it up because Olshey was too chicken**** to make a splash, we’ll get those picks back after Dame dips.

The blazers would be better in Billups system with Simmons IMO and Dame, Powell, Simmons, Roco, Nurkic, Nance is better than what we have now, again that’s my opinion but we’ll likely never find out because a couple rookies that MIGHT be good enough to be role players several years from now will hold up the trade that makes us more serious contenders.

As far as Ben being weak in playoffs that’s debatable, he’s gone there every year and has mixed results, same with CJ who frankly hasn’t really showed up several series either. Lastly, it’s been insane to me that Olshey kept his job 5 years ago, so who tf knows if he’ll EVER get fired especially after what he pulled this offseason. Yes, Ben is a Whiny bitch, but Dame isn’t and I think he could rub off on Ben, at least that’s the gamble.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

I could maybe be talking into one pick unprotected (2024) and one pick protected (2026 - at least top 4, hopefully top 10 or lottery). Pick swaps I don't really care too much about, so I would give two (2023,2025) of those as well.

That is about my max offering, and it would not include Roco. I could be talked into adding a Nance/Curry swap though to balance rosters for both teams afterwards.

Side note, we would have to unprotect the Chicago pick as well. I'm sure Chicago would have no qualms about that but it carries an additional risk for us if the Lillard/Simmons pairing does not immediately gel.

[JasonStern]

Honestly, I wouldn't do more than CJ+1st+(Simons or Little). And even then, it would make more sense of 1st+(Simons/Little) plus PHI filler brought them back a win-now piece from a third team. But neither PHI or POR have filler contracts, so I'm not sure what player would make sense for PHI to trade for.

[Goldbum]

I've been saying 2 picks and a swap seems right. IDK what it's going to take but I would go up to 2 and 3 of that's what it takes. Crap maybe 2 picks and 3 swaps is too much... How about 2 picks CJ+Roco for Ben and Seth? If I'm right that takes us out of the tax which is worth a first IMHO

[Moonbeam]

That’s too steep of a price, IMO, but it’s particularly too steep for a player who may not want to play in Portland. Who is to say Simmons wouldn’t hold out on Portland if he was traded here if he becomes unhappy?