2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation

[dremill24]

I think it's a pretty strong signal that they don't view Ayton as a core in the long run.

This doesn't make sense to me. Why does he have to be overpaid on a max contract to be part of the core? Are Paul, Shamet, Bridges, etc. not part of the core in the long run?

Ayton's more important than all of them.

How does this answer my question?

[Revived]

Overall, guys, the Suns are still in a very good position. We have a 25 yr old Devin Booker that’s an All Star player who will only get better. Mikal Bridges is same age and continuing to get better offensively with more opportunities this year to create off dribble based on what Monty’s said. Payne should be better this year with more familiarity in his role and this system.

Cam Johnson will get better and apparently got stronger. Ayton of course will be get better with the experience he’s had and someone like McGee pushing him in practice.

Suns still have a solid young nucleus along with veteran guys like CP3, Crowder, McGee all continuing to teach them the ropes.

There’s a lot to be excited about in the valley and until a player from this young core is actually no longer on the roster, there’s no need to worry about roster stuff imo.

[bwgood77]

Yeah executive of the year James Jones has been terrible lol

Most people would rate him poorly before the playoff run. People were beyond pissed that he didn't addressing the front court depth issue. And the obviously the Smith pick. Cam Payne is his lone bright spot.

How? He brought in Monty, he brought in CP3, he kept Payne on after the Bubble and he brought in a plethora of solid veteran depth pieces that helped during the regular season and signed Craig who turned out to be pretty important to us.

The lack of front court depth was frustrating but ultimately, no Suns team have been back to the Finals since the early 90's and Jones was the architect of this Finals team. I think he's bought himself plenty of good karma. If we're a 1st or 2nd round exit this season and the next then yeah, he would have lost all that karma he earned but he's done a great job so far. No GM is perfect

His best trait is player relations. The finals run was because we got CP3 though and he and his agent had to look for a trade partner and reached out to Monty and the Suns and then Bukstein matched the salaries, etc, they agreed on the pick and protections and it was done. I like him as a GM, but I'm glad he's likely not our contract negotiator because I think Bukstein is good at that and per The Athletic, Sarver didn't think Ayton was worth the max, so not too much Bukstein can do there though I would have called and offered 5/$137.5 or something $27.5 a year seems like a solid starting point on a negotiation. Then if Ayton's camp shut down the talks at that point, at least the ball was left in their court.

I think someone pointed out though (maybe Flex) that if you give a guy a 5 year extension it HAS to be a max, but if it is just a new deal next offseason they can then do a 5 year deal non max (like Collins got).

Still don't understand a 3 or 4 year max though. Seems like a dumb tactic. It must have been purely for the reason above...they didn't want to use the 2nd 5 year max just in case a trade came up and they could get someone. Hopefully he plays well enough this season to get a max or accepts something like 5/$150.

[Slim Charless]

Most people would rate him poorly before the playoff run. People were beyond pissed that he didn't addressing the front court depth issue. And the obviously the Smith pick. Cam Payne is his lone bright spot.

How? He brought in Monty, he brought in CP3, he kept Payne on after the Bubble and he brought in a plethora of solid veteran depth pieces that helped during the regular season and signed Craig who turned out to be pretty important to us.

The lack of front court depth was frustrating but ultimately, no Suns team have been back to the Finals since the early 90's and Jones was the architect of this Finals team. I think he's bought himself plenty of good karma. If we're a 1st or 2nd round exit this season and the next then yeah, he would have lost all that karma he earned but he's done a great job so far. No GM is perfect

His best trait is player relations. The finals run was because we got CP3 though and he and his agent had to look for a trade partner and reached out to Monty and the Suns and then Bukstein matched the salaries, etc, they agreed on the pick and protections and it was done. I like him as a GM, but I'm glad he's likely not our contract negotiator because I think Bukstein is good at that and per The Athletic, Sarver didn't think Ayton was worth the max, so not too much Bukstein can do there though I would have called and offered 5/$137.5 or something $27.5 a year seems like a solid starting point on a negotiation. Then if Ayton's camp shut down the talks at that point, at least the ball was left in their court.

I think someone pointed out though (maybe Flex) that if you give a guy a 5 year extension it HAS to be a max, but if it is just a new deal next offseason they can then do a 5 year deal non max (like Collins got).

Still don't understand a 3 or 4 year max though. Seems like a dumb tactic. It must have been purely for the reason above...they didn't want to use the 2nd 5 year max just in case a trade came up and they could get someone. Hopefully he plays well enough this season to get a max or accepts something like 5/$150.

A smart team offers DA a three yr deal or so with a player option and front loaded-knowing that we'll match to screw us. Allows Ayton to hit UFA earlier. Kinda like what happened with Hayward in Utah, he left the 1st chance he could.

[lilfishi22]

I'm not even a big Ayton fan but it seems a bit dumb to not give him what he wants.

This.

I think Sarver would've tried to lowball Luka and Trae had we drafted them. This isn't an Ayton thing, this is a Sarver thing.

Sarver is a businessman. Luka and Trae have merch sales written all over them. I bet ATL and DAL could recoup a decent % of the salary they pay to their respect superstars through merch sales. Ayton doesn't have that same appeal, most big men don't. As good as Ayton is, if he hadn't been drafted #1 overall, I doubt he would have nearly the fanfare or popularity is has now and he doesn't even have that much. He just sees Ayton as a big man in a league where big men don't get paid unless you're a #1 option.

[TeamTragic]

How? He brought in Monty, he brought in CP3, he kept Payne on after the Bubble and he brought in a plethora of solid veteran depth pieces that helped during the regular season and signed Craig who turned out to be pretty important to us.

The lack of front court depth was frustrating but ultimately, no Suns team have been back to the Finals since the early 90's and Jones was the architect of this Finals team. I think he's bought himself plenty of good karma. If we're a 1st or 2nd round exit this season and the next then yeah, he would have lost all that karma he earned but he's done a great job so far. No GM is perfect

His best trait is player relations. The finals run was because we got CP3 though and he and his agent had to look for a trade partner and reached out to Monty and the Suns and then Bukstein matched the salaries, etc, they agreed on the pick and protections and it was done. I like him as a GM, but I'm glad he's likely not our contract negotiator because I think Bukstein is good at that and per The Athletic, Sarver didn't think Ayton was worth the max, so not too much Bukstein can do there though I would have called and offered 5/$137.5 or something $27.5 a year seems like a solid starting point on a negotiation. Then if Ayton's camp shut down the talks at that point, at least the ball was left in their court.

I think someone pointed out though (maybe Flex) that if you give a guy a 5 year extension it HAS to be a max, but if it is just a new deal next offseason they can then do a 5 year deal non max (like Collins got).

Still don't understand a 3 or 4 year max though. Seems like a dumb tactic. It must have been purely for the reason above...they didn't want to use the 2nd 5 year max just in case a trade came up and they could get someone. Hopefully he plays well enough this season to get a max or accepts something like 5/$150.

A smart team offers DA a three yr deal or so with a player option and front loaded-knowing that we'll match to screw us. Allows Ayton to hit UFA earlier. Kinda like what happened with Hayward in Utah, he left the 1st chance he could.

You know that Hayward was stuck on the Jazz and they were awful right?

Not to mention that his contract was awful and he couldn't even play in Boston?

[Slim Charless]

His best trait is player relations. The finals run was because we got CP3 though and he and his agent had to look for a trade partner and reached out to Monty and the Suns and then Bukstein matched the salaries, etc, they agreed on the pick and protections and it was done. I like him as a GM, but I'm glad he's likely not our contract negotiator because I think Bukstein is good at that and per The Athletic, Sarver didn't think Ayton was worth the max, so not too much Bukstein can do there though I would have called and offered 5/$137.5 or something $27.5 a year seems like a solid starting point on a negotiation. Then if Ayton's camp shut down the talks at that point, at least the ball was left in their court.

I think someone pointed out though (maybe Flex) that if you give a guy a 5 year extension it HAS to be a max, but if it is just a new deal next offseason they can then do a 5 year deal non max (like Collins got).

Still don't understand a 3 or 4 year max though. Seems like a dumb tactic. It must have been purely for the reason above...they didn't want to use the 2nd 5 year max just in case a trade came up and they could get someone. Hopefully he plays well enough this season to get a max or accepts something like 5/$150.

A smart team offers DA a three yr deal or so with a player option and front loaded-knowing that we'll match to screw us. Allows Ayton to hit UFA earlier. Kinda like what happened with Hayward in Utah, he left the 1st chance he could.

You know that Hayward was stuck on the Jazz and they were awful right?

Not to mention that his contract was awful and he couldn't even play in Boston?

He couldn't play because he had 1 of the most terrible injuries to happen in recent memory. He was all pro his last yr in Utah. It didn't work for the Celts but they weren't wrong in offering him that deal and Utah fans are still salty about him leaving.

[lilfishi22]

Most people would rate him poorly before the playoff run. People were beyond pissed that he didn't addressing the front court depth issue. And the obviously the Smith pick. Cam Payne is his lone bright spot.

How? He brought in Monty, he brought in CP3, he kept Payne on after the Bubble and he brought in a plethora of solid veteran depth pieces that helped during the regular season and signed Craig who turned out to be pretty important to us.

The lack of front court depth was frustrating but ultimately, no Suns team have been back to the Finals since the early 90's and Jones was the architect of this Finals team. I think he's bought himself plenty of good karma. If we're a 1st or 2nd round exit this season and the next then yeah, he would have lost all that karma he earned but he's done a great job so far. No GM is perfect

His best trait is player relations. The finals run was because we got CP3 though and he and his agent had to look for a trade partner and reached out to Monty and the Suns and then Bukstein matched the salaries, etc, they agreed on the pick and protections and it was done. I like him as a GM, but I'm glad he's likely not our contract negotiator because I think Bukstein is good at that and per The Athletic, Sarver didn't think Ayton was worth the max, so not too much Bukstein can do there though I would have called and offered 5/$137.5 or something $27.5 a year seems like a solid starting point on a negotiation. Then if Ayton's camp shut down the talks at that point, at least the ball was left in their court.

I think someone pointed out though (maybe Flex) that if you give a guy a 5 year extension it HAS to be a max, but if it is just a new deal next offseason they can then do a 5 year deal non max (like Collins got).

Still don't understand a 3 or 4 year max though. Seems like a dumb tactic. It must have been purely for the reason above...they didn't want to use the 2nd 5 year max just in case a trade came up and they could get someone. Hopefully he plays well enough this season to get a max or accepts something like 5/$150.

I don't really know who is in charge of what but Jones is the guy in the seat and he could have balked at the idea of bringing in an old CP3 with nearly $90m left on his deal at the time. But he pulled the trigger and it's turned out great.

Ayton wanted to get the max guaranteed money. The potential is that supermax $207m and in all honesty, I could see him get there as an all-NBA 3rd team pick. Last few seasons, the C spot on the 3rd team was held by Gobert and KAT/DeAndre Jordan the years prior. It's not a MASSIVE hurdle because the C position is fairly shallow, I mean DAJ got in twice and even Drummond got picked once. I feel like Jones/Sarver sees this as a possibility and to pay $207m for a guy who's offense still has ways to go is a difficult team building proposition.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Would you guys be interested in trading Ayton/Smith for Wood/Kuminga/GSW22FRP?


CP3, Booker, Mikal, Kuminga, Wood -- Payne, Shamet, Crowder, Cam, Saric

I wouldn't but there are certainly a few here that would.

Pass for me too!
Kuminga has solid upside, But he wouldn't really help us anytime soon. And he wouldn't likely get a lot of minutes behind Crowder and Cam Johnson. Or even as a potential backup to Bridges if he could play as an oversized power wing. And Wood whom I like actually isn't worth Ayton alone, and is a free agent in 2023 anyways. So the value just isn't there enough for me personally. Probably to the surprise of many here too!

[Ghost of Kleine]

NBPA (@TheNBPA) Tweeted:
Opening night vibes

With the season beginning today, @CP3, @mikal_bridges and @pskills43 talk about the NBA brotherhood and the special bond players have amid an 82 game season. https://t.co/JYqOkIDN6s

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[lilfishi22]

Would you guys be interested in trading Ayton/Smith for Wood/Kuminga/GSW22FRP?


CP3, Booker, Mikal, Kuminga, Wood -- Payne, Shamet, Crowder, Cam, Saric

I wouldn't but there are certainly a few here that would.

Pass for me too!
Kuminga has solid upside, But he wouldn't really help us anytime soon. And he wouldn't likely get a lot of minutes behind Crowder and Cam Johnson. Or even as a potential backup to Bridges if he could play as an oversized power wing. And Wood whom I like actually isn't worth Ayton alone, and is a free agent in 2023 anyways. So the value just isn't there enough for me personally. Probably to the surprise of many here too!

Reading this now, where does Wood come from? Christian Wood? Isn't he with the Rockets?

[Ghost of Kleine]

I think it's a pretty strong signal that they don't view Ayton as a core in the long run. Floating a 3 year Max is borderline disrespectful. I think Jones know what he wants and he's signaling that he doesn't see Ayton in a Sun's uniform. All these "designated" excuses are to save face from angry fans. I don't think there was a "good faith" negotiation. Couple with rumors of trading him last year, I think the writing is on the wall...

The irony of this is Ayton's playoff performance masked a poor performance from Jones and Monty. It would have been an embarrassing first round exit otherwise. Besides Chris Paul forcing his way out of OKC, Jones and Monty has been terrible. People easily forgot that Rubio was downright putrid last year and ditto for Oubre. Without CP (and Rubio and Oubre on the team), I think Jones and Monty would be in the hot seat. So yeah, Ayton (and CP) kinda save their asses. Pardon my french.

And this doesn't taken into account other questionable manuevers. Saric's awful contract or Jevon's or drafting Smith instead of Halliburton. Shamet's deal seems to be along the same poor decision process. Nothing wrong with Shamet deal, but Shamet is the kinda of player you draft in later rounds to fill in your rotation. Good teams don't go out there paying that kind of money for a player of his skill set, especially with all the investments made already to fulfill shooting needs. His defense leave a lot to desire.

Lets face it though. He wasn't worth a max before his playoff performance and this is a guy who was impressed with how far he had come.

So I can see just basing it as "not maxing because you only showed value in playoffs" as an ok stance, even though that's when many of the stars show their true value, taking it to another level.

But to me there are head scratching things like not trying to negotiate. The Shamet deal seems weird to me but maybe they are not concerned about a hefty tax in 22-23.

I still believe they want Ayton to be here and he wants to be here too.

I think the consensus of many who watched him play every game is that he wasn't worthy of the max. I'm talking hard core fans. But you do have a lot of the Suns writers (David Nash and his podcast buddy Max, Dave King, etc) talking definite max and expectations around the league for it.

So I don't mind it too much, though I think if they plan on matching anything or giving it next summer they should have.

I think he's worth about 5/$150, which is still a lot. They could have even told him they will offer him the same amount Booker got. 5/$156. Seems like saying something like that would give him or them something to ponder.

So the question I have is whether Ayton can earn that designated rookie max. The reason Jones gave that he wasn't offering that fat max was because it would keep us from trading for another player on the designated rookie max (I don't buy this) but wouldn't that be the same next offseason?

So can Ayton earn the designated rookie max or is the reason Jones gave just kinda fluff and in reality, the Suns just don't see him as a max player?

This one!
For much of the reasons already mentioned.

[darealjuice]

Jevon Carter being in the 10-man rotation for the Brooklyn Nets to start the season surprises me

[Ghost of Kleine]

I wouldn't but there are certainly a few here that would.

Pass for me too!
Kuminga has solid upside, But he wouldn't really help us anytime soon. And he wouldn't likely get a lot of minutes behind Crowder and Cam Johnson. Or even as a potential backup to Bridges if he could play as an oversized power wing. And Wood whom I like actually isn't worth Ayton alone, and is a free agent in 2023 anyways. So the value just isn't there enough for me personally. Probably to the surprise of many here too!

Reading this now, where does Wood come from? Christian Wood? Isn't he with the Rockets?

It's part of a bigger trade proposal he's suggested on the trade board.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2129865&start=40

zimpy 27
Forum Mod
Post#52 » 
Yesterday 9:09 pm

0

eminence wrote:

zimpy 27 wrote:

Xman wrote:Houston would offer up Wood + expiring vets (House, Augustin) + Garuba (rookie pf), BKN 2022 1st, MIL 2023 1st, BKN 2024 1st - and suck up Saric's contract.

Then, I would have to strongly consider trading Ayton to get Kuminga + whatever (Wiseman is ok but prefer Moody).


see it as a realistic 4 teamer.

That's a good deal. They'd probably want a third team tied in though to get more than Wood back with those picks.

I could see it as a realistic 4 teamer.

GS In: Ayton
GS Out: Wiseman/Kuminga/'22 1st

HOU In: Wiseman/Kuminga
HOU Out: Wood/picks(unsure how many)

PHX In: Wood/???
PHX Out: Ayton/Saric

??? In: Saric/picks
??? Out: ???

With maybe some smaller contracts like House involved if the win now teams (PHX/GS) are interested in them. What could be a 4th team with a decent guy on a cheapish salary that would take Saric for picks? Depending on who that could be some picks might still go to Phoenix.

Obviously big assumption on the Warriors FO signing up for it, but possible.

Boucher/Thad Young/a memphis guy come to mind as possibilities.

Maybe just simplified to this:

GS In: Ayton
GS Out: Wiseman/Kuminga/'22 1st

HOU In: Wiseman
HOU Out: Wood

PHX In: Wood/Kuminga/'22 1st
PHX Out: Ayton/Saric

( page 3) I believe.

[King4Day]

I feel like there's a lot of unnecessary tension in this forum right now.
Some are trying to reason why DA wasn't extended. If you don't agree with it, then whatever. But no need to act like there's no chance at all that this isn't Sarver's fault. Jones says one thing, but his agent says another. It's OK to think that MAYBE....JUST MAYBE, Jones isn't lying and the agent is.

The only thing that didn't go right this offseason is DA's extension. Before that, why wasn't anyone ripping Jones as a poor GM? One move, that we as fans don't know a single thing about what really happened, and suddenly we act like we're all working behind the scenes.

I'm not going to call people out if/when someone asks, but I'm really getting sick of it. I feel like the respect for some of the posters here isn't recognized. Very frustrating. If someone says something you don't agree with, stop with the snobby responses and act like an adult. Just say, "I don't agree and here's why", instead of acting like the person is an idiot for thinking such a thing.

[bwgood77]

Overall, guys, the Suns are still in a very good position. We have a 25 yr old Devin Booker that’s an All Star player who will only get better. Mikal Bridges is same age and continuing to get better offensively with more opportunities this year to create off dribble based on what Monty’s said. Payne should be better this year with more familiarity in his role and this system.

Cam Johnson will get better and apparently got stronger. Ayton of course will be get better with the experience he’s had and someone like McGee pushing him in practice.

Suns still have a solid young nucleus along with veteran guys like CP3, Crowder, McGee all continuing to teach them the ropes.

There’s a lot to be excited about in the valley and until a player from this young core is actually no longer on the roster, there’s no need to worry about roster stuff imo.

And Ayton just turned 23, which is 2 years younger than any other rotation guy. Cam Johnson hadn't even been drafted yet at the same age.

[bwgood77]

I'm not even a big Ayton fan but it seems a bit dumb to not give him what he wants.

This.

I think Sarver would've tried to lowball Luka and Trae had we drafted them. This isn't an Ayton thing, this is a Sarver thing.

Sarver is a businessman. Luka and Trae have merch sales written all over them. I bet ATL and DAL could recoup a decent % of the salary they pay to their respect superstars through merch sales. Ayton doesn't have that same appeal, most big men don't. As good as Ayton is, if he hadn't been drafted #1 overall, I doubt he would have nearly the fanfare or popularity is has now and he doesn't even have that much. He just sees Ayton as a big man in a league where big men don't get paid unless you're a #1 option.

Teams don't get their players/teams direct merchandise sales. It goes into the NBA pot of money called Basketball Related Income which gets split between all teams/players.

[bwgood77]

How? He brought in Monty, he brought in CP3, he kept Payne on after the Bubble and he brought in a plethora of solid veteran depth pieces that helped during the regular season and signed Craig who turned out to be pretty important to us.

The lack of front court depth was frustrating but ultimately, no Suns team have been back to the Finals since the early 90's and Jones was the architect of this Finals team. I think he's bought himself plenty of good karma. If we're a 1st or 2nd round exit this season and the next then yeah, he would have lost all that karma he earned but he's done a great job so far. No GM is perfect

His best trait is player relations. The finals run was because we got CP3 though and he and his agent had to look for a trade partner and reached out to Monty and the Suns and then Bukstein matched the salaries, etc, they agreed on the pick and protections and it was done. I like him as a GM, but I'm glad he's likely not our contract negotiator because I think Bukstein is good at that and per The Athletic, Sarver didn't think Ayton was worth the max, so not too much Bukstein can do there though I would have called and offered 5/$137.5 or something $27.5 a year seems like a solid starting point on a negotiation. Then if Ayton's camp shut down the talks at that point, at least the ball was left in their court.

I think someone pointed out though (maybe Flex) that if you give a guy a 5 year extension it HAS to be a max, but if it is just a new deal next offseason they can then do a 5 year deal non max (like Collins got).

Still don't understand a 3 or 4 year max though. Seems like a dumb tactic. It must have been purely for the reason above...they didn't want to use the 2nd 5 year max just in case a trade came up and they could get someone. Hopefully he plays well enough this season to get a max or accepts something like 5/$150.

I don't really know who is in charge of what but Jones is the guy in the seat and he could have balked at the idea of bringing in an old CP3 with nearly $90m left on his deal at the time. But he pulled the trigger and it's turned out great.

Ayton wanted to get the max guaranteed money. The potential is that supermax $207m and in all honesty, I could see him get there as an all-NBA 3rd team pick. Last few seasons, the C spot on the 3rd team was held by Gobert and KAT/DeAndre Jordan the years prior. It's not a MASSIVE hurdle because the C position is fairly shallow, I mean DAJ got in twice and even Drummond got picked once. I feel like Jones/Sarver sees this as a possibility and to pay $207m for a guy who's offense still has ways to go is a difficult team building proposition.

Yeah, I have wondered if it's really the sole reason..they didn't want it to hit 30%. So they wouldn't mind giving him the max if it is the 25% $172 over 5 and would do so next summer if he doesn't hit it.

So basically they may be pulling for him not to make all nba. I'm sure owners do if it's going to cost them $35 million or so over a contract just for your player to be named to an all nba team.

[Young gun 6]

Ayton for Simmons..

Simmons is as good if not a better post defender than Ayton. He's probably the best perimeter defender in the league. Can play small ball 5 like GSW or start McGee. Have tonnes of shooters around him too (Booker, Cp3, Shamet, Payne, Bridges, Cam J, Crowder).

Cp3/Payne
Booker/Shamet
Bridges/Cam J
Crowder/Saric
Simmons/McGee

Or trade for a stretch 5 and start Simmons at the 4. Could even trade Saric and Smith for Thad and insert him as the 5 or backup 4.

We'd have a start offensively in Booker and easily the best perimeter defense in the league with Simmons and Bridges.

Philly could then on trade Ayton as he doesn't fit with Embiid but would have far more value than Simmons coming from Philly.

[Revived]

I feel like there's a lot of unnecessary tension in this forum right now.
Some are trying to reason why DA wasn't extended. If you don't agree with it, then whatever. But no need to act like there's no chance at all that this isn't Sarver's fault. Jones says one thing, but his agent says another. It's OK to think that MAYBE....JUST MAYBE, Jones isn't lying and the agent is.

The only thing that didn't go right this offseason is DA's extension. Before that, why wasn't anyone ripping Jones as a poor GM? One move, that we as fans don't know a single thing about what really happened, and suddenly we act like we're all working behind the scenes.

I'm not going to call people out if/when someone asks, but I'm really getting sick of it. I feel like the respect for some of the posters here isn't recognized. Very frustrating. If someone says something you don't agree with, stop with the snobby responses and act like an adult. Just say, "I don't agree and here's why", instead of acting like the person is an idiot for thinking such a thing.

There’s zero reason for there to be tension till Ayton is actually on another team which I don’t think will happen.

Imagine being upset about it all for the Suns to re-sign him next summer to a 4 yr or 5 yr deal. It would be waste of time and stress to have been upset about it.