[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan

[Djoker]

There is a vast difference between them in their overall playmaking value from that creation. No one is denying that MJ created a lot, just that he didn't find the highest value passes like Lebron and therefore there is a vast difference in how their PlayVal measures come out. As I said before, Lebron is #1 all-time in 3 yr PS PlayVal.

And if you are saying we don't know why 91 MJ is better than Lebron or vice-versa, then there is no need to argue with me. The whole point of my messages was to dispute the idea that Lebron doesn't have seasons worthy of being comparable to peak Jordan in certain facets etc., because considering the the statistics we have, it suggests he was better. You don't have to believe anything, but I am not going to sit around and let people make baseless claims that just aren't true.

Furthermore, BT said in his sampling, that there was no discernable difference between Jordan's scoring with and without Pippen on the floor in a recent patreon article. Furthermore, MJ has had roles where he was a primary ball-handler like 88 and 89 and statistically these years are still behind peak Lebron. Continuing on, on-ball passing like Lebron's pops more with the ball in your hands and is especially a strength of Lebron's game unlike Jordan who is a good, but non-historic passer. The offensive metrics suggest 2009 Lebron and 2010 Lebron on offense were generally more valuable than his Miami versions, yet people have come on this thread and suggested Lebron was more well-rounded in Miami. Well to me this screams that maybe he had the ball taken out of his hands and could exert less value on offense. I am just providing alternative explanations for this drop statistically.

P.S. we do have RAPM Estimates for all of the 90s by former workers of ESPN and while it is not exactly RAPM it has sound methodology(quarter to quarter breakdown from the boxscore instead of pure game level plus-minus) but considering people here believe heavily in the relevance of the box-score, the values shouldn't be too far-fetched for their tastes...
Jordan looks like no outlier during his peak years while Lebron during his peak years leads his contemporaries by multiple standard deviations.

Yes Lebron found and executed more difficult passes. I never deny this. But Jordan created so much pressure with his scoring attracting double and triple teams that his teammates were often times open and he didn't need a fancy pass.

I'm saying we don't have RAPM for peak Jordan. Without play-by-play you can't have plus-minus. Estimates are just that... estimates. I remember PHILA years ago actually broke down a bunch of peak Jordan games from 1990-1992 over a 100 games IIRC and got some incredible impact numbers. Not saying that data is reliable but it's a start.

You discounted multiyear PIPM, BPM, RAPM, RPM, WAR that I posted. All those numbers either show peak Jordan clearly ahead of Lebron or 1997 Jordan (in case of RAPM and RPM) being competitive with peak Lebron. There is the occasional stat that supports Lebron but the majority support Jordan. And that along with better box stats is why most people have peak Jordan over peak Lebron. It's actually you who is in the minority here not me.

Huh, you must not have read anything I wrote correctly, because I didn't mention anything about you being in the minority or your numbers being wrong? All I said that Lebron's best seasons didn't happen back to back and I already proved how multiple runs that beat Jordan in PIPM and RAPTOR. We are talking single-year peaks here, so doesn't it make sense to split up the PS runs in single year stretches? That's all I did, so I don't get your qualms. Unless you just glossed over the mountains of numbers that outright said multiple Lebron seasons are comparable to MJ, then I don't where you are getting "the rare statistic." That just simply isn't the case.

Also fancy passes doesn't make you a better playmaker, Lebron's a better playmaker because he hit more high-leverage passes that lead to higher expected value on his teammates shots. And as I said in the earlier post and as I will say again, I know Jordan put pressure on the defense, he just didn't pick defenses apart with his passing like Lebron and therefore that creates a value difference between. Ben Taylor goes over this in his youtube videos. Heck Ben Taylor even put it in his writeup of MJ- "In over 1,100 offensive possessions tracked, MJ hit over 2 “good” passes per 100 with a passing profile slightly behind Dwyane Wade’s and Kobe Bryant’s." He basically says that MJ is in the Wade and Bryant tier as a passer, which is good but clearly below Lebron.

For instance since you seem to find some kind of value in Ben Taylor's stats since you use them:

Lebron had a 3yr PS ScoreVal Peak of 2.3 and 3yr PS PlayVal Peak of 2.5. Jordan's 3 year peaks in this are 2.7 and 1.9 respectively. Based off these numbers it would suggest there is a bigger difference between their playmaking than there is between their scoring, hence suggesting there is a meaningful difference between them as playmakers if you consider there to be meaningful differences between them as scorers. Am I not justified in pointing this out considering someone said Lebron has no argument to be in Jordan's tier as an offensive player? It isn't about cherrypicking, it is about being accepting of other opinions which you seem to have an issue with.

Also don't know why you being so confrontational over a discussion when all I did was provide the very same stats that suggest Lebron's peak seasons were better. Is the point of this not discuss? And once again, what is the point of arguing with me, when all I did was provide evidence that individual Lebron seasons can match up with those of Jordan? Notice I haven't cast a vote, and I have only been responding to posts. I didn't say anything about having MJ over LBJ, all I pushed back against was the idea that there is no evidence for Lebron being in the same tier as Jordan. I don't think you really are understanding what I am saying, because you are arguing against several points I have not made.

I understand what you mean. You repeated a couple of the same points you said earlier. I understand and agree that Lebron picks out a higher percentage of high leverage passes given the opportunity. My argument is that Jordan creates more of these opportunities so although he completes a fewer percentage, he is very comparable to Lebron in terms of total playmaking output. This is evident in their assist totals being comparable.

There is ample evidence that Lebron is not in the same tier offensively as Jordan. Even Ben Taylor agrees. His CORP valuations on offense have peak Jordan well ahead of peak Lebron. In a recent podcast when putting all the players in history into offensive tiers he put Magic, Jordan and Curry in the first tier then Bird, Lebron and Shaq were in the second tier.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Yes Lebron found and executed more difficult passes. I never deny this. But Jordan created so much pressure with his scoring attracting double and triple teams that his teammates were often times open and he didn't need a fancy pass.

I'm saying we don't have RAPM for peak Jordan. Without play-by-play you can't have plus-minus. Estimates are just that... estimates. I remember PHILA years ago actually broke down a bunch of peak Jordan games from 1990-1992 over a 100 games IIRC and got some incredible impact numbers. Not saying that data is reliable but it's a start.

You discounted multiyear PIPM, BPM, RAPM, RPM, WAR that I posted. All those numbers either show peak Jordan clearly ahead of Lebron or 1997 Jordan (in case of RAPM and RPM) being competitive with peak Lebron. There is the occasional stat that supports Lebron but the majority support Jordan. And that along with better box stats is why most people have peak Jordan over peak Lebron. It's actually you who is in the minority here not me.

Huh, you must not have read anything I wrote correctly, because I didn't mention anything about you being in the minority or your numbers being wrong? All I said that Lebron's best seasons didn't happen back to back and I already proved how multiple runs that beat Jordan in PIPM and RAPTOR. We are talking single-year peaks here, so doesn't it make sense to split up the PS runs in single year stretches? That's all I did, so I don't get your qualms. Unless you just glossed over the mountains of numbers that outright said multiple Lebron seasons are comparable to MJ, then I don't where you are getting "the rare statistic." That just simply isn't the case.

Also fancy passes doesn't make you a better playmaker, Lebron's a better playmaker because he hit more high-leverage passes that lead to higher expected value on his teammates shots. And as I said in the earlier post and as I will say again, I know Jordan put pressure on the defense, he just didn't pick defenses apart with his passing like Lebron and therefore that creates a value difference between. Ben Taylor goes over this in his youtube videos. Heck Ben Taylor even put it in his writeup of MJ- "In over 1,100 offensive possessions tracked, MJ hit over 2 “good” passes per 100 with a passing profile slightly behind Dwyane Wade’s and Kobe Bryant’s." He basically says that MJ is in the Wade and Bryant tier as a passer, which is good but clearly below Lebron.

For instance since you seem to find some kind of value in Ben Taylor's stats since you use them:

Lebron had a 3yr PS ScoreVal Peak of 2.3 and 3yr PS PlayVal Peak of 2.5. Jordan's 3 year peaks in this are 2.7 and 1.9 respectively. Based off these numbers it would suggest there is a bigger difference between their playmaking than there is between their scoring, hence suggesting there is a meaningful difference between them as playmakers if you consider there to be meaningful differences between them as scorers. Am I not justified in pointing this out considering someone said Lebron has no argument to be in Jordan's tier as an offensive player? It isn't about cherrypicking, it is about being accepting of other opinions which you seem to have an issue with.

Also don't know why you being so confrontational over a discussion when all I did was provide the very same stats that suggest Lebron's peak seasons were better. Is the point of this not discuss? And once again, what is the point of arguing with me, when all I did was provide evidence that individual Lebron seasons can match up with those of Jordan? Notice I haven't cast a vote, and I have only been responding to posts. I didn't say anything about having MJ over LBJ, all I pushed back against was the idea that there is no evidence for Lebron being in the same tier as Jordan. I don't think you really are understanding what I am saying, because you are arguing against several points I have not made.

I understand what you mean. You repeated a couple of the same points you said earlier. I understand and agree that Lebron picks out a higher percentage of high leverage passes given the opportunity. My argument is that Jordan creates more of these opportunities so although he completes a fewer percentage, he is very comparable to Lebron in terms of total playmaking output. This is evident in their assist totals being comparable.

There is ample evidence that Lebron is not in the same tier offensively as Jordan. Even Ben Taylor agrees. His CORP valuations on offense have peak Jordan well ahead of peak Lebron. In a recent podcast when putting all the players in history into offensive tiers he put Magic, Jordan and Curry in the first tier then Bird, Lebron and Shaq were in the second tier.

Yeah, and might point is that creation matters but overall playmaking value between them is vast, which is quoted PlayVal. I was just noting how you bought into Taylor's creation estimates numbers, but you don't seem to acknowledge Taylor's playmaking value metric that suggest there is a significant difference.

I clearly just provided a littany of stats that suggest that Lebron with the ball in his hands can exert more offensive impact than Jordan ever could. If you don't agree, that is fine, but I know I didn't just spend hours getting that data together for it to be rejected as nonesense with no backing. And yeah you can interpret the numbers however you would like. On philosophy, Ben Taylor said he would take Lebron with a group of average players around him in order to lead an offense to great heights over Jordan. How Lebron gels with higher level talent is what makes Taylor put Jordan higher than Lebron offensively. I value floor-raising more than Taylor, which is a large part of why I think the case for LBJ over MJ becomes stronger. Taylor also puts Steph above Jordan offensively, but I have yet to see you go around on this forum proclaiming Steph to be the offensive GOAT...you can interpret the numbers differently from certain people is my point.

[Djoker]

Huh, you must not have read anything I wrote correctly, because I didn't mention anything about you being in the minority or your numbers being wrong? All I said that Lebron's best seasons didn't happen back to back and I already proved how multiple runs that beat Jordan in PIPM and RAPTOR. We are talking single-year peaks here, so doesn't it make sense to split up the PS runs in single year stretches? That's all I did, so I don't get your qualms. Unless you just glossed over the mountains of numbers that outright said multiple Lebron seasons are comparable to MJ, then I don't where you are getting "the rare statistic." That just simply isn't the case.

Also fancy passes doesn't make you a better playmaker, Lebron's a better playmaker because he hit more high-leverage passes that lead to higher expected value on his teammates shots. And as I said in the earlier post and as I will say again, I know Jordan put pressure on the defense, he just didn't pick defenses apart with his passing like Lebron and therefore that creates a value difference between. Ben Taylor goes over this in his youtube videos. Heck Ben Taylor even put it in his writeup of MJ- "In over 1,100 offensive possessions tracked, MJ hit over 2 “good” passes per 100 with a passing profile slightly behind Dwyane Wade’s and Kobe Bryant’s." He basically says that MJ is in the Wade and Bryant tier as a passer, which is good but clearly below Lebron.

For instance since you seem to find some kind of value in Ben Taylor's stats since you use them:

Lebron had a 3yr PS ScoreVal Peak of 2.3 and 3yr PS PlayVal Peak of 2.5. Jordan's 3 year peaks in this are 2.7 and 1.9 respectively. Based off these numbers it would suggest there is a bigger difference between their playmaking than there is between their scoring, hence suggesting there is a meaningful difference between them as playmakers if you consider there to be meaningful differences between them as scorers. Am I not justified in pointing this out considering someone said Lebron has no argument to be in Jordan's tier as an offensive player? It isn't about cherrypicking, it is about being accepting of other opinions which you seem to have an issue with.

Also don't know why you being so confrontational over a discussion when all I did was provide the very same stats that suggest Lebron's peak seasons were better. Is the point of this not discuss? And once again, what is the point of arguing with me, when all I did was provide evidence that individual Lebron seasons can match up with those of Jordan? Notice I haven't cast a vote, and I have only been responding to posts. I didn't say anything about having MJ over LBJ, all I pushed back against was the idea that there is no evidence for Lebron being in the same tier as Jordan. I don't think you really are understanding what I am saying, because you are arguing against several points I have not made.

I understand what you mean. You repeated a couple of the same points you said earlier. I understand and agree that Lebron picks out a higher percentage of high leverage passes given the opportunity. My argument is that Jordan creates more of these opportunities so although he completes a fewer percentage, he is very comparable to Lebron in terms of total playmaking output. This is evident in their assist totals being comparable.

There is ample evidence that Lebron is not in the same tier offensively as Jordan. Even Ben Taylor agrees. His CORP valuations on offense have peak Jordan well ahead of peak Lebron. In a recent podcast when putting all the players in history into offensive tiers he put Magic, Jordan and Curry in the first tier then Bird, Lebron and Shaq were in the second tier.

Yeah, and might point is that creation matters but overall playmaking value between them is vast, which is quoted PlayVal. I was just noting how you bought into Taylor's creation estimates numbers, but you don't seem to acknowledge Taylor's playmaking value metric that suggest there is a significant difference.

I clearly just provided a littany of stats that suggest that Lebron with the ball in his hands can exert more offensive impact than Jordan ever could. If you don't agree, that is fine, but I know I didn't just spend hours getting that data together for it to be rejected as nonesense with no backing. And yeah you can interpret the numbers however you would like. On philosophy, Ben Taylor said he would take Lebron with a group of average players around him in order to lead an offense to great heights over Jordan. How Lebron gels with higher level talent is what makes Taylor put Jordan higher than Lebron offensively. I value floor-raising more than Taylor, which is a large part of why I think the case for LBJ over MJ becomes stronger. Taylor also puts Steph above Jordan offensively, but I have yet to see you go around on this forum proclaiming Steph to be the offensive GOAT...you can interpret the numbers differently from certain people is my point.

I don't agree with Ben Taylor on everything. Far from it... I stated that about his offensive tiers because you and another poster tried to paint my view that Jordan > Lebron offensively by an entire tier as somehow outlandish. Then it turns out Ben Taylor thinks the same.

I didn't reject any of your numbers. I also posted even more numbers that supported my viewpoint on Jordan's total impact being greater. You called the RAPM data unreliable, dismissed RPM, dismissed WAR because Jordan played more games (even though Jordan also dominated RAPTOR itself with seven of the top 10 between him and Lebron), dismissed 3-year PIPM/AuPM/BPM that Taylor posted because it's a multi-year sample etc.

[falcolombardi]

I understand what you mean. You repeated a couple of the same points you said earlier. I understand and agree that Lebron picks out a higher percentage of high leverage passes given the opportunity. My argument is that Jordan creates more of these opportunities so although he completes a fewer percentage, he is very comparable to Lebron in terms of total playmaking output. This is evident in their assist totals being comparable.

There is ample evidence that Lebron is not in the same tier offensively as Jordan. Even Ben Taylor agrees. His CORP valuations on offense have peak Jordan well ahead of peak Lebron. In a recent podcast when putting all the players in history into offensive tiers he put Magic, Jordan and Curry in the first tier then Bird, Lebron and Shaq were in the second tier.

Yeah, and might point is that creation matters but overall playmaking value between them is vast, which is quoted PlayVal. I was just noting how you bought into Taylor's creation estimates numbers, but you don't seem to acknowledge Taylor's playmaking value metric that suggest there is a significant difference.

I clearly just provided a littany of stats that suggest that Lebron with the ball in his hands can exert more offensive impact than Jordan ever could. If you don't agree, that is fine, but I know I didn't just spend hours getting that data together for it to be rejected as nonesense with no backing. And yeah you can interpret the numbers however you would like. On philosophy, Ben Taylor said he would take Lebron with a group of average players around him in order to lead an offense to great heights over Jordan. How Lebron gels with higher level talent is what makes Taylor put Jordan higher than Lebron offensively. I value floor-raising more than Taylor, which is a large part of why I think the case for LBJ over MJ becomes stronger. Taylor also puts Steph above Jordan offensively, but I have yet to see you go around on this forum proclaiming Steph to be the offensive GOAT...you can interpret the numbers differently from certain people is my point.

I don't agree with Ben Taylor on everything. Far from it... I stated that about his offensive tiers because you and another poster tried to paint my view that Jordan > Lebron offensively by an entire tier as somehow outlandish. Then it turns out Ben Taylor thinks the same.

I didn't reject any of your numbers. I also posted even more numbers that supported my viewpoint on Jordan's total impact being greater. You called the RAPM data unreliable, dismissed RPM, dismissed WAR because Jordan played more games (even though Jordan also dominated RAPTOR itself with seven of the top 10 between him and Lebron), dismissed 3-year PIPM/AuPM/BPM that Taylor posted because it's a multi-year sample etc.

i dont remember it perfectly but i think taylor explained he took away points from lebron because of lack of portability (which i disagree with since it feels like a theorical/aesthetical punishment) and that was a bit part of why he ranked jordan peak a bit ahead

he also said that lebron defense was "slightly mpre impressive" so it doesnt seem like he has jordan as a much better offensive player with defense closing the gap

[VanWest82]

i dont remember it perfectly but i think taylor explained he took away points from lebron because of lack of portability (which i disagree with since it feels like a theorical/aesthetical punishment) and that was a bit part of why he ranked jordan peak a bit ahead

he also said that lebron defense was "slightly mpre impressive" so it doesnt seem like he has jordan as a much better offensive player with defense closing the gap

If he said Jordan had the highest peak overall and he also thought Lebron was a better defender as you suggest (I'd disagree, but whatever) then it must be that he had MJ as a materially better offensive player to not only make up the (theoretical) defensive gap but surpass him overall. What am I missing?

Presumably portability does matter because it impacts which teammates you can succeed with. MJ was great on the ball and he was great off the ball. He was great guarding the ball and he was great playing free safety. Lebron needs the ball and he needs to not be guarding the ball otherwise there's a significant dip in his effectiveness. We've seen several examples over the years of how his teams' ceiling was lowered because his teammates had to adjust their games in ways that made them much less effective in order to fit with Lebron. Chris Bosh was the relevant example during Lebron's peak years though I always thought Wade made big sacrifices too that he never gets credit for because he got hurt.

[falcolombardi]

because the way i understand his portability point is in the sense that he says

"ok this player (lets say bird) played a +10 impact and this other (lets say magic) also had a +10 impact" he then says

"ok, both were equally valuable in their respective situations but since i believe bird could fit into more teams and magic not i will give bird a +1 and magic a -1"

suddendly there is a sizable Gap based on theorical value in theorical situations which is what i dont like

i remember him doing tjis to lebron, magic, hakeem and others and i strongly disagreed

[VanWest82]

because the way i understand his portability point is in the sense that he says

"ok this player (lets say bird) played a +10 impact and this other (lets say magic) also had a +10 impact" he then says

"ok, both were equally valuable in their respective situations but since i believe bird could fit into more teams and magic not i will give bird a +1 and magic a -1"

suddendly there is a sizable Gap based on theorical value in theorical situations which is what i dont like

i remember him doing tjis to lebron, magic, hakeem and others and i strongly disagreed

I don't really follow his stuff so I don't know how he applies it but the concept makes sense to me and should be a point of consideration, especially in the case of Lebron where we can point to so many examples where his lack of portability arguably hurt his teams. I still don't know why Cavs didn't make a better effort to play more through Love who was an incredible offensive hub in Minnesota. If Lebron really was the defender you guys claim he was he could've played a more central role in Cavs defense to help shore up that weakness. Instead, pretty much everything ran through Lebron on offense so there was no identity when he wasn't on the floor and their defense sucked because he had to pick his spots.

As an exercise, try making the case that Steph's portability as an on ball / off ball player doesn't add significant value to Warriors offense.

[colts18]

Presumably portability does matter because it impacts which teammates you can succeed with. MJ was great on the ball and he was great off the ball. He was great guarding the ball and he was great playing free safety. Lebron needs the ball and he needs to not be guarding the ball otherwise there's a significant dip in his effectiveness. We've seen several examples over the years of how his teams' ceiling was lowered because his teammates had to adjust their games in ways that made them much less effective in order to fit with Lebron. Chris Bosh was the relevant example during Lebron's peak years though I always thought Wade made big sacrifices too that he never gets credit for because he got hurt.

We are praising MJ for hypothetical portability which is insane. We never saw MJ having to sacrifice because he never played with high usage teammates. We've seen LeBron have success with high usage teammates on 2 different teams. It's an unfair comparison because LeBron actually had to go through playing with high usage teammates while MJ never had to that. We can't say MJ is highly portable because his team situation was practically the same for his entire championship prime, 1990-1998.

MJ's Usage%:
91-93: 33.1%
96-98: 33.4%

Pippen's Usage %:
91-93: 23.5%
94-95: 26.7%
96-98: 24.5%

Grant's Usage%:
91-93: 15.9%
94: 18.7% (Career High)

Now compare that with LeBron's teammates in Miami.

LeBron's usage%:
09-10: 33.6%


Wade's Usage%:
09-10: 35.6% (lead NBA both seasons)

Usage%
2011: LeBron 31.5%, Wade 31.6%
2012: LeBron 32.0%, Wade 31.3%
2013: LeBron 30.2%, Wade 29.5%
2014: LeBron 31.0%, Wade 27.9%

Wade did sacrifice some, but his usage% was actually HIGHER than LeBron's their first season. From 2011-2013, Wade had practically the same Usage% as LeBron.

Chris Bosh Usage%:
10: 28.7%
11-14: 23.2%
15: 28.4% (No LeBron)

Bosh was doing most of the sacrificing on the Heat. His usage% shot up when LeBron left. Notice how Bosh's usage% is pretty similar to Pippen's. MJ had his Chris Bosh in Scottie Pippen, but MJ never played with a D Wade. A player who had identical usage to him. How would MJ's Bulls. Wade had the 11th highest Usage% in history in 2009. It would be like if 2006 Kobe Bryant joined the Bulls with MJ. I bet you at least one of MJ or Kobe's numbers would fall off. And the team results would look shaky as well.

Recap:
-MJ's "portability" is very hypothetical. MJ played with a Chris Bosh, but he never played with a high usage superstar who played the same position as him.

[VanWest82]

We are praising MJ for hypothetical portability which is insane. We never saw MJ having to sacrifice...

You lost me here. MJ spent the first five seasons of his career with the ball in his hands and then Phil took the ball out of his hands. You've gamed your entire analysis to completely ignore that fact.

It's also unclear to me why "high usage teammates" would be the thing that helps determine portability. What does that have to do with Phil telling Mike he had to the throw the ball into Bill Cartwright first before he could go get a shot?

You've also totally ignored things like assists, attempted passes, total time with the ball, etc. USG only looks at shots and turnovers iirc.

Edit: MJ also became more of a pure scorer toward the end because he had not only Pippen but Kukoc, Rodman, Kerr, Harper, etc., to help fill the play making void. He adjusted his game not only to fit his teams but often series to series within the same playoffs. His portability was evident numerous times throughout his career.

[ty 4191]

Who played in a stronger/more balanced league, top to bottom?

Who played in better conferences, overall?

Who played better teams, on average, overall, in the playoffs?

These are the questions you guys should be asking and answering.

The rest is just window dressing and endless drivel, back and forth throwing one's preferred metric du jour against the other guy's preferred metric du jour.

[VanWest82]

Who played in a stronger/more balanced league, top to bottom?

Lebron

Who played in better conferences, overall?

Jordan

Who played better teams, on average, overall, in the playoffs?

Jordan but Lebron played better teams in the Finals

All good questions but I'm not sure this settles anything.

[falcolombardi]

because the way i understand his portability point is in the sense that he says

"ok this player (lets say bird) played a +10 impact and this other (lets say magic) also had a +10 impact" he then says

"ok, both were equally valuable in their respective situations but since i believe bird could fit into more teams and magic not i will give bird a +1 and magic a -1"

suddendly there is a sizable Gap based on theorical value in theorical situations which is what i dont like

i remember him doing tjis to lebron, magic, hakeem and others and i strongly disagreed

I don't really follow his stuff so I don't know how he applies it but the concept makes sense to me and should be a point of consideration, especially in the case of Lebron where we can point to so many examples where his lack of portability arguably hurt his teams. I still don't know why Cavs didn't make a better effort to play more through Love who was an incredible offensive hub in Minnesota. If Lebron really was the defender you guys claim he was he could've played a more central role in Cavs defense to help shore up that weakness. Instead, pretty much everything ran through Lebron on offense so there was no identity when he wasn't on the floor and their defense sucked because he had to pick his spots.

As an exercise, try making the case that Steph's portability as an on ball / off ball player doesn't add significant value to Warriors offense.

i am not criticizing the value of off ball impact curry has

i am criticizing what i perceive to be double counting of it

if curry with all his offball and on ball value gives me X amount of value and player B who is more ballhogging also gives me X amount of value thinghs being as similar possible overall between their teams

i would say they are equally valuable players, maybe give curry a slight tiebreaker at most

the value of curry portability is already included when evaluating his impact, no need to give extra points

[VanWest82]

i am not criticizing the value of off ball impact curry has

i am criticizing what i perceive to be double counting of it

if curry with all his offball and on ball value gives me X amount of value and player B who is more ballhogging also gives me X amount of value thinghs being as similar possible overall between their teams

i would say they are equally valuable players, maybe give curry a slight tiebreaker at most

the value of curry portability is already included when evaluating his impact, no need to give extra points

Right but the argument is that if we switch the teammates around Curry still gives you X but the less portable player B might now give you something less than X if his new teammates don't fit his game as well, or perhaps player B still gives you X but the overall effectiveness of the team is less which is what happened in Miami and 2nd Cavs stint (i.e. team < sum of its parts).

[falcolombardi]

i am not criticizing the value of off ball impact curry has

i am criticizing what i perceive to be double counting of it

if curry with all his offball and on ball value gives me X amount of value and player B who is more ballhogging also gives me X amount of value thinghs being as similar possible overall between their teams

i would say they are equally valuable players, maybe give curry a slight tiebreaker at most

the value of curry portability is already included when evaluating his impact, no need to give extra points

Right but the argument is that if we switch the teammates around Curry still gives you X but the less portable player B might now give you something less than X if his new teammates don't fit his game as well, or perhaps player B still gives you X but the overall effectiveness of the team is less which is what happened in Miami and 2nd Cavs stint (i.e. team < sum of its parts).

second cavs stint reached all time heights in offense when healthy so i would disagree with. that assesment

[VanWest82]

second cavs stint reached all time heights in offense when healthy so i would disagree with. that assesment

They won 53, 57, and 51 games with pretty loaded rosters in an historically weak conference and their offense was 3rd each of those years.

Also, only looking at their offense ignores my critique of why Lebron didn't sacrifice some of his offense (given the other offensive talent on the roster) to play a more central role in their defense which was putrid at times. Perhaps if he'd been more portable (or more willing) on that front they'd have won more games.

[ty 4191]

Who played in a stronger/more balanced league, top to bottom?

Lebron

Who played in better conferences, overall?

Jordan

Who played better teams, on average, overall, in the playoffs?

Jordan but Lebron played better teams in the Finals

All good questions but I'm not sure this settles anything.

It means everything.

Division/Conference Strength:

1. Jordan played in a conference where the East went .509 against the West, overall (1985-1998). 10 of 15 teams had an overall .500 or higher winning percentage against the Western Conference.

2. Lebron James played in an Eastern Conference that had an OVERALl .431 winning percentage against the Western Conference, overall, including playoffs, from 2004-2018. TWO of 16 teams were over .500!! That is a JOKE.

[ty 4191]

Who played in a more balanced/stronger leeague?

Lebron. Easily.

Lebron James
TWO teams out of 30 had overall winning percentages below .400 2004-2021.

Standard Deviation, σ: 0.065
Count, N: 30
Sum, Σx: 14.995
Mean, μ: 0.49983333333333
Variance, σ2: 0.00422

Michael Jordan
Six out of 29 teams had overall winning percentages below .400 1985-2022.

Standard Deviation, σ: 0.113
Count, N: 29
Sum, Σx: 13.989
Mean, μ: 0.482
Variance, σ2: 0.013

Much more balanced/stronger league for LeBron James.

Also, Lebron James played against 20-30% players from outside the United States/everywhere else. Globalized Game.

Jordan played against 1-2% players from outside the United States.

[falcolombardi]

second cavs stint reached all time heights in offense when healthy so i would disagree with. that assesment

They won 53, 57, and 51 games with pretty loaded rosters in an historically weak conference and their offense was 3rd each of those years.

Also, only looking at their offense ignores my critique of why Lebron didn't sacrifice some of his offense (given the other offensive talent on the roster) to play a more central role in their defense which was putrid at times. Perhaps if he'd been more portable (or more willing) on that front they'd have won more games.

because they reached all time heights in the post season, the 19 raptors were "only" a top 5 defense in regular season amd everyone agrees they were an all time defense still, proving it in the playoffs is more important than being #1 or # 3 in the regular season,
they were great enough in reg season to prove those play off runs were not unlikely consecutive flukes

kyrie and love were valuable offensive players but you are not reaching elite heights running your offense through them, why would any team run their offense through their distant second and third best offensive players instead of their (by far) best offensive player?

we have seen kyrie lead a offense with another talented offensive big man (horford instead of love) or with love himself when lebron sat, and it was not nearly as good as cavs offense with lebron


lebron, specially after his physical prime was not gonna anchor a mediocre defensive team into a elite defense, not even peak defense lebron (nor peak defense jordan for the comparision ) could have done that

for a example 89-91 is considered jordan peak and the bulls defense hovered between above average. average and below average despite jordan being in his physical peak and some defensive talent (younger grant and pippen) that a older/past defensive peak player in lebron(2nd cavs stint) couldnt anchor a probably worse defensive roster better than peak jordan is not a huge black mark

older jordan of the second threepeat was another important cog in a team with at least 3 other big plus defenders (harper,pippen,rodman)

the cavs had at most a few slight plus defenders (dellavedova for one season, he Smith, thompson, old as hell jefferson)

[colts18]

I don't really follow his stuff so I don't know how he applies it but the concept makes sense to me and should be a point of consideration, especially in the case of Lebron where we can point to so many examples where his lack of portability arguably hurt his teams. I still don't know why Cavs didn't make a better effort to play more through Love who was an incredible offensive hub in Minnesota. If Lebron really was the defender you guys claim he was he could've played a more central role in Cavs defense to help shore up that weakness. Instead, pretty much everything ran through Lebron on offense so there was no identity when he wasn't on the floor and their defense sucked because he had to pick his spots.

As an exercise, try making the case that Steph's portability as an on ball / off ball player doesn't add significant value to Warriors offense.

I'm not sure where you are getting this narrative from. The Cavs were extremely effective at integrating Kevin Love into the LeBron offense. They produced all-time level offensive results. Why would the Cavs give Kevin Love a role like he had in Minnesota if it would make them less successful on offense? That makes no sense at all. Not to mention, Kevin Love was not the same player in Cleveland that he was in Minnesota. He lost a ton of weight in Cleveland so he couldn't play the same style as he did in Minnesota.

The results with LeBron and Love on the court were at all-time levels.

LeBron + Love on the court:

2015: RS 115.9, PS 118.9
2016: RS 116.1, PS 121.1
2017: RS 119.8, PS 123.5
2018: RS 114.8, PS 111.9

LeBron+Kyrie+Love:
2015: RS 116.7, PS 118.6
2016: RS 114.8, PS 122.2
2017: RS 120.4, PS 123.2

I don't know how anyone can look at those numbers and try to make a case that LeBron has bad portability or that Kevin Love should have received the ball more.

[VanWest82]

I don't really follow his stuff so I don't know how he applies it but the concept makes sense to me and should be a point of consideration, especially in the case of Lebron where we can point to so many examples where his lack of portability arguably hurt his teams. I still don't know why Cavs didn't make a better effort to play more through Love who was an incredible offensive hub in Minnesota. If Lebron really was the defender you guys claim he was he could've played a more central role in Cavs defense to help shore up that weakness. Instead, pretty much everything ran through Lebron on offense so there was no identity when he wasn't on the floor and their defense sucked because he had to pick his spots.

As an exercise, try making the case that Steph's portability as an on ball / off ball player doesn't add significant value to Warriors offense.

I'm not sure where you are getting this narrative from. The Cavs were extremely effective at integrating Kevin Love into the LeBron offense. They produced all-time level offensive results. Why would the Cavs give Kevin Love a role like he had in Minnesota if it would make them less successful on offense? That makes no sense at all. Not to mention, Kevin Love was not the same player in Cleveland that he was in Minnesota. He lost a ton of weight in Cleveland so he couldn't play the same style as he did in Minnesota.

The results with LeBron and Love on the court were at all-time levels.

LeBron + Love on the court:

2015: RS 115.9, PS 118.9
2016: RS 116.1, PS 121.1
2017: RS 119.8, PS 123.5
2018: RS 114.8, PS 111.9

LeBron+Kyrie+Love:
2015: RS 116.7, PS 118.6
2016: RS 114.8, PS 122.2
2017: RS 120.4, PS 123.2

I don't know how anyone can look at those numbers and try to make a case that LeBron has bad portability or that Kevin Love should have received the ball more.

None of this addresses the point I was making which is that Cavs were weak defensively and one of the few guys on those teams who could've made a difference was too ball dominant to have enough energy to do it.

Would Cavs have still been the #3 offense playing a little more through Love? Maybe not, but maybe they would've been better than 18th and 21st on D. It's not a coincidence that the one year he did try a little harder they improved to 10th in defense and won the title. Also, the years they did have some success vs. Warriors were when they had defensive success. Part of the reason they got blown out in 2017 was because Lebron arguably tried to do too much on offense (where he was great) instead of focusing on slowing down KD.

Also, (offensive) portability isn't just about putting up good numbers. It's about putting up good numbers in different roles. We only saw Lebron in one role type on those teams outside of the first four games of 14/15.