ty 4191 wrote:ty 4191 wrote:70sFan wrote:We don'thave a lot of them, but different kind of WOWY numbers do see Russell as slightly more impactful.
I have a different question to you - why WS are so important in your evaluation? What exactly this stat shows and in what way does it help us to estimate impact?
Can you post what "impact metrics' we DO have for Wilt and Russell, for both prime and career, please? Thanks!
Win Shares are the only omnibus player stat going back to 1960 that we have aside from PER. This discrepancy between all of Wilt and Russell's teammates' value as reflected in Win Shares is mirrored in PER, FWIW.
Which 1960's player/team value stats do you believe are more reliable/valid, and why?
70's Fan,
Do you have a response to my post (emboldened directly above)? I'd be quite curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
Yeah, sorry for not responding earlier - I had a busy week.
Most impact metrics from the 1960s are crude and far from perfect, but they could give us some rough base to work on. The first and most notable one is WOWY, here are more information about the metric:
https://backpicks.com/metrics/wowyr/
Full-career Russell WOWY: 6.2
Prime Russell WOWY: 6.4
Full-career Wilt WOWY: 6.0
Prime Wilt WOWY: 6.1
Not a significant difference, but it seems that Bill has a slight edge (note that the error is quite big for the 1960s players unfortunately).
There are also some kind of boxscore estimates of plus-minus (BPM), but I don't think they are that much valuable to be honest. We can also analyze the shift in wins and offense/defense contribution in absence/arrival of given player and Russell seemed to look a bit better in these composites as well. Lastly, you can watch games and try to analyze why Celtics were so dominant despite being so mediocre offensively and it's clear that Russell was the driving force of this defensive dynasty (this is also backed up by WOWY and other data).
The point is that you only compare boxscore production here, which is mostly about scoring so of course Russell looks worse - he's much inferior scorer. There are other aspects of the game though - you recently found that Russell's defense against all-star centers was ridiculous for example and this can't be captured by simple look at boxscore stats on bball reference.
I'm not saying that Russell was much better than Wilt - I think that Chamberlain peaked notably higher, but was less consistent throughout his career than Bill. I have Russell 3rd on my list, while Wilt is at number 6 - quite close and reasonable in my opinion.