2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation

[bigfoot]

Here we are getting all uppity about the 10th pick. Jeez, it's a crapshoot when drafting. Don't forget the years and dollars given to Jackson (4), Bender (4), Len (5), and Chriss (8). The Suns cut bait because the in-house talent evaluation didn't see Jalen making the necessary steps. Pretty simple.

Sure hindsight says take Haliburton ... he could have been pinned to the bench behind Paul, Booker, Payne, Galloway, Moore, and Carter. He would have been in the same situation as Smith.

Gonna throw out my rule-of-thumb ... if a draft pick can't average 11+ points by their second year they are probably a bust. The best we could have hoped for with Jalen was role-player and we have plenty of those.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Gerald Bourguet (@GeraldBourguet) Tweeted:
Monty Williams said “it’s hard” in regards to Jalen Smith not getting the kind of opportunity most NBA rookies get to grow: https://t.co/VbRmVfRLGd

Read on Twitter

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Given this nice small post I will respond to your very very very long post earlier which I scanned and saw a couple things worth responding to.

While they DID say anything less than a championship is a disappointment, and they also said something that may have seemed contradictory, in that they expected Jalen to get 10-15 minutes on a lower seed playoff team....

I simply don't think they expected to be in contention and they would be a lower seed playoff team and he WOULD get that opportunity last year. Obviously Monty seems to like his work ethic but on a contender no rookies see playing time.

I'm sure they would have preferred keeping him but know that luxury tax and money is too big a part of the equation to invest so much money in developing a guy when it will be hard to get him on the floor for what they view as a contender.

Whilst I agree with your and Fish's eloquently stated points, And I absolutely get that upon drafting him we didn't have those expectations of contention. However, the fact remains that once you resign yourselves to not prioritizing an asset for development or contributory minutes, in interest of older expierenced vets, At that point, Why keep that asset just to sit on it whilst it's value diminishes, rather than looking to move it before it's value completely dissipates. At the very least, We should've sent him back to the GLeague for a better chance of further development as opposed to just sitting him on the bench and giving him only garbage minutes or looking for outlier performances in a practice environment. Regardless of unexpected circumstances, If he's not properly utilized either on this roster as a contributor or via trade as an asset. He becomes a wasted asset in the lost salary and roster position that could've been available for another option??

And I've come to terms on the financial implications of why they chose to decline him due to the inability of our front office to properly assess market value in their contractual considerations for Shamet as well as Savers' penny pinching nature and overall financial impotence in this league. It's again just disappointing that due to our owners cheapness and our front offices ' negligence in unnecessarily overpaying for Shamets' extension would result in our 10th pick becoming an early casualty. But again this is par for the course with sn owner like Saver!

But also, if Shamet doesn't find his footing and play up his contractual value, Then how does that trade look?
As in losing Smith to offset his 10 million salary, it more or less becomes:
Carter/ Smith/ 2021 first for Shamet.
For the record, I hope ( and do believe) that he'll show out in these next stretch of 5-6 games. And I think that 16 or 17 points would be a nice turn around for him after recent struggles. As for Smith, it's hard to know exactly what he could become for some team, as he never really got a chance here. But I'd expect him to definitely have rotational potential for some young team such as OKC or Sacramento, Boston Or perhaps even Washington? ( since he's from Maryland) or Brooklyn?

[Ghost of Kleine]

Here we are getting all uppity about the 10th pick. Jeez, it's a crapshoot when drafting. Don't forget the years and dollars given to Jackson (4), Bender (4), Len (5), and Chriss (8). The Suns cut bait because the in-house talent evaluation didn't see Jalen making the necessary steps. Pretty simple.

Sure hindsight says take Haliburton ... he could have been pinned to the bench behind Paul, Booker, Payne, Galloway, Moore, and Carter. He would have been in the same situation as Smith.

Gonna throw out my rule-of-thumb ... if a draft pick can't average 11+ points by their second year they are probably a bust. The best we could have hoped for with Jalen was role-player and we have plenty of those.

Here we are getting all uppity about the 10th pick. Jeez, it's a crapshoot when drafting. Don't forget the years and dollars given to Jackson (4), Bender (4), Len (5), and Chriss (8). The Suns cut bait because the in-house talent evaluation didn't see Jalen making the necessary steps. Pretty simple.

Whilst I can agree that it's somewhat of a crapshoot in general, The risks are significantly reduced by actually doing in depth research, interviews, assessments of situational fit (how that prospects skillset/ abilities benefit the team scheme and dynamic). Yes, We really whiffed on those 4 players. But that again lends credence to further in depth evaluation, etc. For that level of investment. Otherwise, If you're unwilling to look beyond the consensus perception to determine true value, Then we should've just moved those picks for a more established known commodity.

The Suns cut bait because the in-house talent evaluation didn't see Jalen making the necessary steps. Pretty simple.

Did you see the video clip by Monty Williams? He even stated that Smith got put into a poor situation wherein the team trajectory changed. And as a result he didn't get playing time as a result. Also he stated that he was pleased with Smith's work ethic being in the gym everyday, putting in the work, and having shown some instances ( mentions a block) of him doing things that you don't see many players being able to do. To be clear, Smith ( as Jones himself mentioned) got dealt a poor hand. He didn't get a chance to even establish himself. This was very clearly about concerns over the potential luxury tax penalties of picking up his option. His 4.7 million possibly becoming around 10 or 11 million in incurred cost. Saver just doesn't have the financial resources to be comfortable with such risks. We have a poor cheapskate of an owner who can't play with the big boys in this league. Smith is just a casualty of this. Nothing more.

Sure hindsight says take Haliburton ... he could have been pinned to the bench behind Paul, Booker, Payne, Galloway, Moore, and Carter. He would have been in the same situation as Smith.

Absolutely agree with you on this! But still it's funny in that same premise because for everyone postulating that Smith was the wrong pick and these other prospects would've been better. Based upon what exactly. I mean if none of these guys would of recieved any more playing time than Smith either in the same situation of prioritizing veterans. And then suffering the same result as they'd have been making the exact same salary as Smith if selected at 10 instead! The right choice would've been to trade back for reduced salary commitment. And additional tradable assets. Or to simply trade the pick for a vet in the first place.

But we didn't do that at the time of the draft, BECAUSE we didn't have Paul or even consider that trade yet. We needed a guard and an athletic 3 and D 4 to offset Sarics' and Kaminskys' gross lack of athleticism and rim protection ( before Ayton took his defensive leap) later with Paul's mentoring ironically. But Smith was definitely a viable consideration. We really only selected him at 10 due to a rumor of Ssn Antonio coveting him at 11. So we didn't think he'd be there later IF we traded back. They chose Smith over Stewart/ Achiuwa and Bey due to his more advanced offensive skillset and rebounding/ shotblocking metrics. But it wouldn't matter who we picked, As once Paul got here, Our plans changed and we no longer prioritized youth development. So no one selected would've likely seen playing time behind vets. And still been declined due to cost concerns too.

Gonna throw out my rule-of-thumb ... if a draft pick can't average 11+ points by their second year they are probably a bust. The best we could have hoped for with Jalen was role-player and we have plenty of those.
To each their own on talent valuation I guess. But I'd argue it's pretty hard to establish productional value IF you are on the bench. And in garbage time wherein all the end of the bench scrubs, washouts or vet minimum options are all looking to promote themselves, You're obviously not very likely to get many good opportunities to even put up that stat line. To me a big part of development is in fact situation. As in Smith's situation with us once we got Paul in the trade. We abandoned our youth movement and development. Because rightfully so, We wanted to contend. In that context, Smith no longer recieved playing time. However, as a measurement of his potential and abilities, in a different scenario ( summer league) when he actually got his first legitimate playing time with actual minutes, He managed to put up around 16 points and 12 rebounds. So he averaged a double/ double in the time games that he actually got minutes. Then he comes back here to a situation wherein he'll recieve no playing time again in interest of vets with more experience. Does this mean he's a bust? Not at all! Moreover just a product of him not really getting an opportunity. And now he's a casualty of our owners fiscal impotence and our front office's negligence in being overzealous in giving Shamet a deal well beyond his percieved market value given the production that he's shown thus far.

If Smith signs onto another young team with good development and available minutes, I imagine his progression will make our decision to decline him look somewhat shortsighted. But it was done for the purpose of cost cutting ( Savers' biggest talent) to avoid a larger scale tax penalty.

[suns12345]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264606/NBA-Players-Struggling-To-Adjust-To-New-Wilson-Basketball

This is something I have thought about re: Booker's struggles, plus Dame and a few others.

Back when I was half decent at bball, you could probably classify me as a shooter and nothing else (mostly cause I couldn't play a lick of defence lol), but I really found changing balls to be very challenging and I certainly preferred one ball over others.

I have also heard in NCAA where they use different balls in different conferences that this impacts shooting percentages.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I gotta say, with Smith no longer part of this team's future, there's less to be excited about. At this point, I'm principally interested in (1) Deandre's development, (2) wins and (3) Sarver being ousted, in no particular order.

No matter how competitive it is, your team is simply less interesting without young guys on the roster. No surprises, no volatility, lower ceiling.

Still, I take some heart in looking at the Bulls - not just for how quickly they seem to have turned it around, but to have added Ayo Dosunmu with the 38th pick, who is already producing in vital minutes for a team that is suddenly a playoff threat.

Who knows. Maybe we'll get lucky, get an owner in here who is willing to invest in young players and keep us in contention for the long-term. Jerry, for all his faults, never punted on the draft. Our good draft decisions in the 90s are what allowed us to rebuild so quickly after Chuck left - a #21 pick (Finley) turning into Kidd; a #15 pick (Nash) turning into Pat Garrity and the 9th pick, which with cap space turned into Penny Hardaway and Shawn Marion. That rebuild was botched with McDyess's sad departure and the desperate signings of Googs and Longley that followed, but all the upside came from mid-first round draft picks.

The way this team is built, we'll contend as long as we have an owner willing to pay top dollar to keep it together, but once this batch of stars has faded, we're headed back into the chasm. That's okay, too. I just hope the next time around, we have scouts on staff who are worth a damn.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I gotta say, with Smith no longer part of this team's future, there's less to be excited about. At this point, I'm principally interested in (1) Deandre's development, (2) wins and (3) Sarver being ousted, in no particular order.

No matter how competitive it is, your team is simply less interesting without young guys on the roster. No surprises, no volatility, lower ceiling.

Still, I take some heart in looking at the Bulls - not just for how quickly they seem to have turned it around, but to have added Ayo Dosunmu with the 38th pick, who is already producing in vital minutes for a team that is suddenly a playoff threat.

Who knows. Maybe we'll get lucky, get an owner in here who is willing to invest in young players and keep us in contention for the long-term. Jerry, for all his faults, never punted on the draft. Our good draft decisions in the 90s are what allowed us to rebuild so quickly after Chuck left - a #21 pick (Finley) turning into Kidd; a #15 pick (Nash) turning into Pat Garrity and the 9th pick, which with cap space turned into Penny Hardaway and Shawn Marion. That rebuild was botched with McDyess's sad departure and the desperate signings of Googs and Longley that followed, but all the upside came from mid-first round draft picks.

The way this team is built, we'll contend as long as we have an owner willing to pay top dollar to keep it together, but once this batch of stars has faded, we're headed back into the chasm. That's okay, too. I just hope the next time around, we have scouts on staff who are worth a damn.

[lilfishi22]

Gerald Bourguet (@GeraldBourguet) Tweeted:
Monty Williams said “it’s hard” in regards to Jalen Smith not getting the kind of opportunity most NBA rookies get to grow: https://t.co/VbRmVfRLGd

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Given this nice small post I will respond to your very very very long post earlier which I scanned and saw a couple things worth responding to.

While they DID say anything less than a championship is a disappointment, and they also said something that may have seemed contradictory, in that they expected Jalen to get 10-15 minutes on a lower seed playoff team....

I simply don't think they expected to be in contention and they would be a lower seed playoff team and he WOULD get that opportunity last year. Obviously Monty seems to like his work ethic but on a contender no rookies see playing time.

I'm sure they would have preferred keeping him but know that luxury tax and money is too big a part of the equation to invest so much money in developing a guy when it will be hard to get him on the floor for what they view as a contender.

This is my point that we both agree on

It's not that we expect NOTHING from Smith but when push comes to shove, we just couldn't afford the roster spot and LT for a guy that is not likely to see the floor. I don't think $4.7m in itself is an issue but it's the situation we're in that makes it highly problematic.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Duane Rankin (@DuaneRankin) Tweeted:
Now that's 5:30 ET but with Brandon Ingram listed as doubtful and Zion Williamson still out after offseason foot surgery, this might be a game to rest Deandre Ayton as he's still listed as questionable after injuring his leg against the Cavs. #Suns https://t.co/XSRKqRF5nM

Read on Twitter

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[bwgood77]

Duane Rankin (@DuaneRankin) Tweeted:
Now that's 5:30 ET but with Brandon Ingram listed as doubtful and Zion Williamson still out after offseason foot surgery, this might be a game to rest Deandre Ayton as he's still listed as questionable after injuring his leg against the Cavs. #Suns https://t.co/XSRKqRF5nM

Read on Twitter

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If he risks injuring it further or it lingering longer by playing, sure.

But if not, he should play.

We are not in the position to be taking games lightly and consider them 'Ws" on the schedule regardless of who is playing.

[Ghost of Kleine]

NBA (@NBA) Tweeted:
Chasing history

@CP3 needs 7 assists to move into fourth all-time, and 8 to take third on the all-time list!

Tune in as the @Suns host the Pelicans TONIGHT at 10pm/et on TNT! https://t.co/dNAuGVTUU7

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[lilfishi22]

think it's pretty obvious that we weren't really anticipating to go all in at that point because we haven't even made the playoffs yet

For sure I agree that we exceeded expectations in making it to the finals. But if memory serves, I believe Jones himself stated that "bringing in Paul was their all in move" and that their intent was to win a title and nothing less!


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brightsideofthesun.com/platform/amp/2020/11/30/21728832/jones-wants-phoenix-suns-fans-to-expect-titles-nba-2020

2020-21 Suns Media Week: GM Jones wants Suns fans to expect titles

Phoenix Suns GM James Jones is embracing high expectations rather than avoiding them, despite franchise’s 10 year playoff drought

By Dave King
 on November 30, 2020
12:58 pm

A man with the nickname ‘Champ’ knows what winning basketball looks like. And he wants NBA fans to expect not only a winner but an NBA champion.

“I’m looking forward to watching our guys compete,” Jones said.

The Suns were tops in the league in assists per game and ranked 8th (of 30) on total offense last year despite ranking only 16th on three-point percentage. Enter several offseason additions with career-long track records as good shooters. More made shots equals even more assists, higher scoring, and a chance to win a lot more games.

But Jones doesn’t want just a few more wins. The expectations are clear this year. Jones has said several times to the media that any season is a disappointment if you don’t win the championship. And that starts with how you handle yourself every day.

So Jones approximately 14 days after they acquired Paul from the Thunder stated his expectations for a championship! And that anything less than that would be a disappointment. So given that perspective, And once we determined that we had no time to offer Smith for development over established vets being the priority, We should have been exploring trades, as to not waste his time or ours and utilize the asset rather than bot playing or developing him and as a result torpedoing his percieved value as a 10th pick. There had to be interested teams around that time! San Antonio for sure was interested in him as one example alone.

https://www.expressnews.com/sports/spurs/article/Former-Maryland-forward-Jalen-Smith-on-Spurs-15603999.php#photo-20029871

www.expressnews.com

Former Maryland forward Jalen Smith on Spurs' radar

Sep 28, 2020 — In a Zoom interview Monday to help kick off the virtual NBA Draft Combine, former...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/airalamo.com/posts/san-antonio-spurs-jalen-smith-fit-on-team/amp

it could be worth it for the Spurs to take a flyer on him. In fact, before ultimately selecting Vassell in the draft, there was a report that Smith was on the Spurs' radar, suggesting that they already believed in his talent after watching his career at Maryland.

we drafted Smith because we legitimately thought he would be a contributor in perhaps a 10-15mpg capacity on a maybe lower seed playoff team

This confuses me, As IF we legitimately thought he'd be a contributor, Then why didn't we play him more? I mean obviously it's hard to be a contributor when you don't get any real playing time. And again, Jones mentioned a few times ( post Paul trade) that his expectations for the team were to win a championship. Not be a lower seed playoff team, and that anything less than a championship would be a disappointment. To me at least, There choosing to jot play him at all during the playoffs, and hardly at all since drafting him would seem to indicate them not believing that he could be a contributor to the team. So if that was the case even back last season, Then why not simply trade him rather than sit on him and diminish his already decreasing value? This is what's frustrating to me.

FWIW if we're in the self reflection discussion, the poor judgement would have been taking Smith in the first place. You're obviously closer to the draft than myself but I think you would agree that Smith probably wasn't your first choice at #10.

Well apparently, it wouldn't really matter who we took IF the end result was choosing to not play them in interest of cheap veteran options due to experience. Also with the results being the same as well in declining their options due to luxury tax concerns. Since the salary scale would remain the same for whomever we picked at 10 really. You're right man, I will agree that Smith wasn't my first choice! My first choice was to trade back for value as we had multiple positional needs for that draft. I suggested trading back for either:
Boston's 14th and 26th picks to take a combination of Cole Anthony and Precious Achiuwa. Or Isiah Stewart or Saddiq Bey and Desmond Bane for shooting.

And if not Boston, Otherwise Dallas for their 18th and 31st picks. That way I could take dither Bey or Achiuwa at 18, And add a future 2nd or other minor sweetener to move up one or two spots to take Desmond Bane or Malachi Flynn. That was my first choice. But regardless of whom we chose, Since this was our last chance in a long time for a lottery pick. We should've made an effort to get the most out of it, And actually found some playing time and development for that player. If playing time was not available on our contending team because we preferred veteran options, then we should've looked to put him back in the GLeague or else traded him earlier for an actual cheap vet replacement. We did neither really. Instead, we sat on him, let his value tank, then chose not to accept his option. We just did a terrible job in asset management when we could've gotten value IF we acted sooner.

And honestly, all this situation is really just a consequence of rushing to overpay Shamet by a fair margin in bidding against ourselves. He hadn't proven anything yet close to proving that value contractually yet. But still he was given it because our coach likes him. So Smith is a casualty of that negligence.

So so far, The Shamet trade has cost us Jevon Carter/ Jalen Smith ( 10th pick) and our 2021 first. Or two firsts and a 3rd string guard option. I just hope that he shows out and proves his contract. Otherwise it'll look like a pretty dumb decision. Even worse if you consider a better and more efficient shooter in Merrill was traded to Memphis along with two 2nds for a 4 million salary bench player in grayson Allen. We could've easily flipped Carter to Milwaukee for the same package. And Merrill is currently only making $ 1.2 million.

I can't be bothered to quote each section so I'll just put together some key points addressing sections of your post, hope you don't mind.

Key points:
- Getting CP3 was the first step towards a likely multi-year title chasing program. We did NOT know whether we would be a lower tier, mid tier, upper tier or a Finals team when we traded for him. No one could possibly know at that point. You took Jones' words way too literally. We're not...the Lakers or the Nets that traded everything away because they were getting Kyrie and KD or Lebron and AD and were expecting a deep playoff run with a title being a real possibility. We were getting a 35 year old CP3 who had just been banished to the depths of the NBA known as OKC as our one and only star acquisition. We were a team that hadn't sniffed playoffs for a decade and by chance made it into the play-in tourney the previous season but still didn't make it. If you told me you truly believed we were a Finals team with our roster before the season started, I would've straight up called BS. Nobody even expected us to be a guaranteed playoff team until we were really putting up W's on the board and we actually looked like a really solid team.

- I believed Jones thought he could draft a big man that fits the mold of a guy we need on this team (stretch big to back up Ayton/Dario) and may play decent minutes on a 1st or 2nd round exit in the playoffs and that made some sense to me. I don't agree with the pick but if that was the rationale, it does make some sense to have drafted him, at the very least for depth on that lower-mid tier playoff team.

- CP3 was just the first domino. We didn't get a starter level PF until late November when we signed Crowder and I don't know we would've signed him if we didn't bring in CP3 as the start of our all-in phase. If we didn't bring in Crowder, that may have legitimately left some decent minutes for Smith even if he wasn't ready but we may not have been more than an above .500 team. But that goes back to my point that we wanted to make playoffs, that was the first goal and that was not a guarantee even with CP3.

- Jones was obviously high enough on Smith to draft him in what was universally seen as a mega reach so he wasn't just going to trade him away without giving him a longer evaluation period in games and in practice. And after the season, it seemed pretty clear that he didn't have a role on a FINALS team and that's why there were chatter that we had offered Smith in trades which didn't eventuate. As for why he didn't play more, the same reasons why a lot of rookies don't play more, either he wasn't ready, he didn't look ready in practice, he had covid I believe which hurt his development timeline and maybe the coach just didn't think he had a role for him once we started to click and locked in our rotations. The way we handled this pick was poor from the get go. He wasn't the right pick and we didn't do him any favors by not playing him but I also agree with the likely reason we didn't play him.

- As to your last paragraph about not playing ANY rookie, I don't think that's necessarily a certainty. Could we have found back up minutes for a guy like Banes instead of minutes given to Moore/Gallo/Carter? Yeah possibly. It's really just dependant on whether the guy was ready to contribute or not and Smith clearly wasn't. So just because Smith wasn't ready and we didn't play him, doesn't mean no rookie is ready and we would not have played any rookies. I agree with you that we probably should have traded back and maybe picked up a vet on the way but as you or someone had mentioned, it was our last opportunity to grab a high potential player in the lottery...except we picked the wrong guy so it was kind of a double mistake.

- As for Shamet, I liked the trade and the player but I didn't LOVE rushing out to resign him despite the deal being pretty good. I think it sent the wrong message and the Suns have basically cemented the amount that they will pay in salary next season and *may* limit how much we give to Ayton and likely contributed to the decision to not pick up Smith's option. I would've preferred to take the wait and see approach on a guy that hadn't played a single game for us.

[lilfishi22]

Duane Rankin (@DuaneRankin) Tweeted:
Now that's 5:30 ET but with Brandon Ingram listed as doubtful and Zion Williamson still out after offseason foot surgery, this might be a game to rest Deandre Ayton as he's still listed as questionable after injuring his leg against the Cavs. #Suns https://t.co/XSRKqRF5nM

Read on Twitter

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Pelcs have been in a pretty sucky situation. They seemingly got the GM/VP of BBall that everyone wanted (David Griffin) and they had just got a HAUL for trading AD and #1 pick. The future was bright (still is) but just doesn't seem like they have much semblance of an NBA team still. Got talented guys but that roster just feels like a mismatch of talent. I think a lot of people had high hopes for the Pels and they had virtually one of the best clean slates when Griffin came onboard but I just don't know. I look at that roster and I'm just like ehhhh

[WeekapaugGroove]

Duane Rankin (@DuaneRankin) Tweeted:
Now that's 5:30 ET but with Brandon Ingram listed as doubtful and Zion Williamson still out after offseason foot surgery, this might be a game to rest Deandre Ayton as he's still listed as questionable after injuring his leg against the Cavs. #Suns https://t.co/XSRKqRF5nM

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Pelcs have been in a pretty sucky situation. They seemingly got the GM/VP of BBall that everyone wanted (David Griffin) and they had just got a HAUL for trading AD and #1 pick. The future was bright (still is) but just doesn't seem like they have much semblance of an NBA team still. Got talented guys but that roster just feels like a mismatch of talent. I think a lot of people had high hopes for the Pels and they had virtually one of the best clean slates when Griffin came onboard but I just don't know. I look at that roster and I'm just like ehhhh

Griffin must be super cool to peeps in the media because he's talked about glowingly but there's really no evidence he's actually good at his job. Yes he won a title with Cleveland but that was LeBron and I think some of the moves while he was there were pretty suspect too.

Now outside of Griffin the Zion situation just plain sucks for them. We're now 3 straight years of injuries and honesty he looks flat out fat in the pictures I've seen of him. I'm really concerned he can hold up long term. But probably even more sucky is him wanting out has been bubbling since litterally the day they won the lotto and it won't stop until he inevitably leaves. After what they went through with AD I can understand if Pels fans just give up. If you have no shot to keep great players it's super duper depressing. I don't have a great solution but it's sucks for fans.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

[lilfishi22]

Duane Rankin (@DuaneRankin) Tweeted:
Now that's 5:30 ET but with Brandon Ingram listed as doubtful and Zion Williamson still out after offseason foot surgery, this might be a game to rest Deandre Ayton as he's still listed as questionable after injuring his leg against the Cavs. #Suns https://t.co/XSRKqRF5nM

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Pelcs have been in a pretty sucky situation. They seemingly got the GM/VP of BBall that everyone wanted (David Griffin) and they had just got a HAUL for trading AD and #1 pick. The future was bright (still is) but just doesn't seem like they have much semblance of an NBA team still. Got talented guys but that roster just feels like a mismatch of talent. I think a lot of people had high hopes for the Pels and they had virtually one of the best clean slates when Griffin came onboard but I just don't know. I look at that roster and I'm just like ehhhh

Griffin must be super cool to peeps in the media because he's talked about glowingly but there's really no evidence he's actually good at his job. Yes he won a title with Cleveland but that was LeBron and I think some of the moves while he was there were pretty suspect too.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

It's undeniably easier to build a team around the edges when you already have a HOF superstar in Lebron James on the team who knew who he wanted to play with and it's just a matter of getting those guys. It's much harder to bring in those pieces when you don't have a winning formula currently to build off. Individually, I like a lot of their players. I've always like JV, I like Hart, I like BI, I like NAW, I like Graham, I like Sato and obviously Zion is ultra talented but as a team, they just don't seem to be a great match. Who is their floor general? The guy handing out the most assist is Graham but he's more of a scoring guard than a PG. I don't know if Ingram is much of a leader outside of being one of their go-to guys. Zion, I don't know how vocal he is either. Then you got a bunch of good young PGs in Lewis and NAW but they are just too young to have much of a voice out there.

[bigfoot]

Here we are getting all uppity about the 10th pick. Jeez, it's a crapshoot when drafting. Don't forget the years and dollars given to Jackson (4), Bender (4), Len (5), and Chriss (8). The Suns cut bait because the in-house talent evaluation didn't see Jalen making the necessary steps. Pretty simple.

Sure hindsight says take Haliburton ... he could have been pinned to the bench behind Paul, Booker, Payne, Galloway, Moore, and Carter. He would have been in the same situation as Smith.

Gonna throw out my rule-of-thumb ... if a draft pick can't average 11+ points by their second year they are probably a bust. The best we could have hoped for with Jalen was role-player and we have plenty of those.

Here we are getting all uppity about the 10th pick. Jeez, it's a crapshoot when drafting. Don't forget the years and dollars given to Jackson (4), Bender (4), Len (5), and Chriss (8). The Suns cut bait because the in-house talent evaluation didn't see Jalen making the necessary steps. Pretty simple.

Whilst I can agree that it's somewhat of a crapshoot in general, The risks are significantly reduced by actually doing in depth research, interviews, assessments of situational fit (how that prospects skillset/ abilities benefit the team scheme and dynamic). Yes, We really whiffed on those 4 players. But that again lends credence to further in depth evaluation, etc. For that level of investment. Otherwise, If you're unwilling to look beyond the consensus perception to determine true value, Then we should've just moved those picks for a more established known commodity.

The Suns cut bait because the in-house talent evaluation didn't see Jalen making the necessary steps. Pretty simple.

Did you see the video clip by Monty Williams? He even stated that Smith got put into a poor situation wherein the team trajectory changed. And as a result he didn't get playing time as a result. Also he stated that he was pleased with Smith's work ethic being in the gym everyday, putting in the work, and having shown some instances ( mentions a block) of him doing things that you don't see many players being able to do. To be clear, Smith ( as Jones himself mentioned) got dealt a poor hand. He didn't get a chance to even establish himself. This was very clearly about concerns over the potential luxury tax penalties of picking up his option. His 4.7 million possibly becoming around 10 or 11 million in incurred cost. Saver just doesn't have the financial resources to be comfortable with such risks. We have a poor cheapskate of an owner who can't play with the big boys in this league. Smith is just a casualty of this. Nothing more.

Sure hindsight says take Haliburton ... he could have been pinned to the bench behind Paul, Booker, Payne, Galloway, Moore, and Carter. He would have been in the same situation as Smith.

Absolutely agree with you on this! But still it's funny in that same premise because for everyone postulating that Smith was the wrong pick and these other prospects would've been better. Based upon what exactly. I mean if none of these guys would of recieved any more playing time than Smith either in the same situation of prioritizing veterans. And then suffering the same result as they'd have been making the exact same salary as Smith if selected at 10 instead! The right choice would've been to trade back for reduced salary commitment. And additional tradable assets. Or to simply trade the pick for a vet in the first place.

But we didn't do that at the time of the draft, BECAUSE we didn't have Paul or even consider that trade yet. We needed a guard and an athletic 3 and D 4 to offset Sarics' and Kaminskys' gross lack of athleticism and rim protection ( before Ayton took his defensive leap) later with Paul's mentoring ironically. But Smith was definitely a viable consideration. We really only selected him at 10 due to a rumor of Ssn Antonio coveting him at 11. So we didn't think he'd be there later IF we traded back. They chose Smith over Stewart/ Achiuwa and Bey due to his more advanced offensive skillset and rebounding/ shotblocking metrics. But it wouldn't matter who we picked, As once Paul got here, Our plans changed and we no longer prioritized youth development. So no one selected would've likely seen playing time behind vets. And still been declined due to cost concerns too.

Gonna throw out my rule-of-thumb ... if a draft pick can't average 11+ points by their second year they are probably a bust. The best we could have hoped for with Jalen was role-player and we have plenty of those.
To each their own on talent valuation I guess. But I'd argue it's pretty hard to establish productional value IF you are on the bench. And in garbage time wherein all the end of the bench scrubs, washouts or vet minimum options are all looking to promote themselves, You're obviously not very likely to get many good opportunities to even put up that stat line. To me a big part of development is in fact situation. As in Smith's situation with us once we got Paul in the trade. We abandoned our youth movement and development. Because rightfully so, We wanted to contend. In that context, Smith no longer recieved playing time. However, as a measurement of his potential and abilities, in a different scenario ( summer league) when he actually got his first legitimate playing time with actual minutes, He managed to put up around 16 points and 12 rebounds. So he averaged a double/ double in the time games that he actually got minutes. Then he comes back here to a situation wherein he'll recieve no playing time again in interest of vets with more experience. Does this mean he's a bust? Not at all! Moreover just a product of him not really getting an opportunity. And now he's a casualty of our owners fiscal impotence and our front office's negligence in being overzealous in giving Shamet a deal well beyond his percieved market value given the production that he's shown thus far.

If Smith signs onto another young team with good development and available minutes, I imagine his progression will make our decision to decline him look somewhat shortsighted. But it was done for the purpose of cost cutting ( Savers' biggest talent) to avoid a larger scale tax penalty.

Let's make this real simple ...

1) if Jalen Smith had any potential to be a starter or significant role player the Suns would have kept him. Nothing wrong with getting rid of a 3rd string player and saving $10M at the same time. Third-string players make the vet min like Frank and Elfrid.

2) I have little doubt the Suns do way more research than the most ardent rosterbater. After all, they get to do the interview and in-person workouts plus check their background, etc.

3) I would not expect any less from Monty or Jones in terms of saying positive things about the kid. Of course they would, they want to include him in trades. Fact is, there may be issues we are all unaware of.

4) I would argue the Suns did commit to youth development. Johnson, Bridges, and Ayton were all 2nd and 3rd-year players plus TyShon and Jalen. The fact is, Jalen didn't show enough to be worthy of picking up his option. If he can't crack the rotation as Cam Johnson and Bridges did by their second seasons, that has to account for something. After all, plenty of rookies have contributed to championship-caliber teams.

This is just saltiness about Sarver instead of recognizing this as a good business decision made by Jones.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Pelcs have been in a pretty sucky situation. They seemingly got the GM/VP of BBall that everyone wanted (David Griffin) and they had just got a HAUL for trading AD and #1 pick. The future was bright (still is) but just doesn't seem like they have much semblance of an NBA team still. Got talented guys but that roster just feels like a mismatch of talent. I think a lot of people had high hopes for the Pels and they had virtually one of the best clean slates when Griffin came onboard but I just don't know. I look at that roster and I'm just like ehhhh

Griffin must be super cool to peeps in the media because he's talked about glowingly but there's really no evidence he's actually good at his job. Yes he won a title with Cleveland but that was LeBron and I think some of the moves while he was there were pretty suspect too.

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It's undeniably easier to build a team around the edges when you already have a HOF superstar in Lebron James on the team who knew who he wanted to play with and it's just a matter of getting those guys. It's much harder to bring in those pieces when you don't have a winning formula currently to build off. Individually, I like a lot of their players. I've always like JV, I like Hart, I like BI, I like NAW, I like Graham, I like Sato and obviously Zion is ultra talented but as a team, they just don't seem to be a great match. Who is their floor general? The guy handing out the most assist is Graham but he's more of a scoring guard than a PG. I don't know if Ingram is much of a leader outside of being one of their go-to guys. Zion, I don't know how vocal he is either. Then you got a bunch of good young PGs in Lewis and NAW but they are just too young to have much of a voice out there.

Yeah I think his roster constitution around Zion has been really odd and that's being nice.

Along with being cool with the media the other thing Griffin got was the bad owner treatment. Gilbert is right there with Sarver in the bad owner club, while I'm sure some things suck working for a bad owner the good side is the GM will get credit for any of the good stuff but the bad stuff people will just push that off to being the owners fault. It's a no lose situation.

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[RaisingArizona]

Cp3 has made JJ look good at his job. Outside of that trade, he's been just okay as a GM.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Cp3 has made JJ look good at his job. Outside of that trade, he's been just okay as a GM.

I won't completely argue with that but I'd also say he should get credit for hiring Monty and getting them from embarrassingly terrible to respectable the year before CP came. If that groundwork isn't laid no chance CP wants to come to Phoenix. Plus Jae Crowder, Cam Johnson, and Payne all played key roles in that run and were JJ moves.

No GM is perfect and the Smith thing is a big yikes miss but I certainly don't want him gone and you can do much worse.

It's funny I'd say about 90% of all sports fans think their teams GM and coach are bad, that's just sports.
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[Mulhollanddrive]

Smith to me is a Center so that is the main thing getting in his way.

Shot 35% in Summer League trying to spread the floor to replicate the role we need, but it's unlikely he'll become 45% at that a few months later in NBA.

I'm looking forward to see how he goes at C playing the McGee backup (if Ayton is out), has great rebounding and rim protection instincts and won't have to worry about a perimeter game too much.

[bwgood77]

Duane Rankin (@DuaneRankin) Tweeted:
Now that's 5:30 ET but with Brandon Ingram listed as doubtful and Zion Williamson still out after offseason foot surgery, this might be a game to rest Deandre Ayton as he's still listed as questionable after injuring his leg against the Cavs. #Suns https://t.co/XSRKqRF5nM

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Pelcs have been in a pretty sucky situation. They seemingly got the GM/VP of BBall that everyone wanted (David Griffin) and they had just got a HAUL for trading AD and #1 pick. The future was bright (still is) but just doesn't seem like they have much semblance of an NBA team still. Got talented guys but that roster just feels like a mismatch of talent. I think a lot of people had high hopes for the Pels and they had virtually one of the best clean slates when Griffin came onboard but I just don't know. I look at that roster and I'm just like ehhhh

Griffin must be super cool to peeps in the media because he's talked about glowingly but there's really no evidence he's actually good at his job. Yes he won a title with Cleveland but that was LeBron and I think some of the moves while he was there were pretty suspect too.

Now outside of Griffin the Zion situation just plain sucks for them. We're now 3 straight years of injuries and honesty he looks flat out fat in the pictures I've seen of him. I'm really concerned he can hold up long term. But probably even more sucky is him wanting out has been bubbling since litterally the day they won the lotto and it won't stop until he inevitably leaves. After what they went through with AD I can understand if Pels fans just give up. If you have no shot to keep great players it's super duper depressing. I don't have a great solution but it's sucks for fans.

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Is he still talked about glowingly? I certainly haven't heard anything good about him or his team building the last couple of years.