LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0

[falcolombardi]

It's hard to knock Jordan's career because you have to attack the first few years of his career, when nearly everyone loses - Durant, Lebron, Giannis and Curry were lottery in their first few years - so people like to weaponize a coincidence - the only time Jordan didn't win is the time period that no one wins for the most part.

Btw, Jordan carried an 8 ppg rookie to 50 wins and the 2nd Round in 1988, while Lebron couldn't make the 2006 playoffs without the East all-star center and a 22/6/5 acquisition plus the future Coach of the Year.. Lebron actually had 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'..

i would be thankful if you quoted me with context, i didnt accuse young jordan of empty stats, rather made a commment that it seemed like djoker was equaling any great series that reulted in a big series loss as empty stats, hence the comparision with younger jordan

2006 lebron had the same age as jordan in his last season with north carolina, the 88 comparision would be actually 2010, a 61 win season

2004 Cavs.... 0 all-stars
2005 Cavs.... 2 all-stars
2006 Cavs.... added a 22/5/5 acquisition and the future COY


^^^ that's a lot of improvement over 3 years

Accordingly, years of experience matters more than age because Lebron was lottery in 04' and 05', which gave him 3 seasons to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering the playoffs for the first time in 2006.. Otoh, Jordan was a couple years older but didn't get any time to develop his teams - his teams were thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 as 8 seeds, and therefore underperformed Lebron's veteran high seeds.

But when Jordan had 3 healthy seasons to develop the Bulls (1988), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron....

The difference is that Jordan was carrying rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win it, while Lebron had the East all-star center and a high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.

the garnett, pierce, allen celtics were a 1 star team? the 2006 pistons also had 3 all star level players in billups, ben and rasheed

[conrad510]

i would be thankful if you quoted me with context, i didnt accuse young jordan of empty stats, rather made a commment that it seemed like djoker was equaling any great series that reulted in a big series loss as empty stats, hence the comparision with younger jordan

2006 lebron had the same age as jordan in his last season with north carolina, the 88 comparision would be actually 2010, a 61 win season

2004 Cavs.... 0 all-stars
2005 Cavs.... 2 all-stars
2006 Cavs.... added a 22/5/5 acquisition and the future COY


^^^ that's a lot of improvement over 3 years

Accordingly, years of experience matters more than age because Lebron was lottery in 04' and 05', which gave him 3 seasons to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering the playoffs for the first time in 2006.. Otoh, Jordan was a couple years older but didn't get any time to develop his teams - his teams were thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 as 8 seeds, and therefore underperformed Lebron's veteran high seeds.

But when Jordan had 3 healthy seasons to develop the Bulls (1988), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron....

The difference is that Jordan was carrying rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win it, while Lebron had the East all-star center and a high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.

the garnett, pierce, allen celtics were a 1 star team? the 2006 pistons also had 3 all star level players in billups, ben and rasheed

Of course 1-star teams didn't win every year - but they won 5 times from 2001 to 2009, including Dwight, Iverson, Kidd (twice) and Lebron - so the 00's East is the only conference in history that was routinely won by 1-star teams, yet this is the conference that Lebron formed super-teams in

That's the definition of stacking the deck and manufacturing your resume (forming super-teams in a 1-star team conference) - I'm sure Dwight would've made a bunch of Finals with a super-team after making the Finals without one in 2009.

Btw, the 2009 Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo Williams was superior to Pippen across the board offensively (PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM, scoring, efficiency).. This matters because it shows that Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.. Then he lost again in 2011 before finally winning in 2012.. So the facts clearly show Jordan's superiority and doing more with less.

[Cavsfansince84]

2004 Cavs.... 0 all-stars
2005 Cavs.... 2 all-stars
2006 Cavs.... added a 22/5/5 acquisition and the future COY


^^^ that's a lot of improvement over 3 years

Accordingly, years of experience matters more than age because Lebron was lottery in 04' and 05', which gave him 3 seasons to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering the playoffs for the first time in 2006.. Otoh, Jordan was a couple years older but didn't get any time to develop his teams - his teams were thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 as 8 seeds, and therefore underperformed Lebron's veteran high seeds.

But when Jordan had 3 healthy seasons to develop the Bulls (1988), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron....

The difference is that Jordan was carrying rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win it, while Lebron had the East all-star center and a high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.

Not sure who the other all star you are mentioning for 05 is and Larry Hughes got a bad back injury his first year with the Cavs and never fully recovered from it. He was probably 60-70% of the player he once was after that. He was out of the league by age 31.

[conrad510]

2004 Cavs.... 0 all-stars
2005 Cavs.... 2 all-stars
2006 Cavs.... added a 22/5/5 acquisition and the future COY


^^^ that's a lot of improvement over 3 years

Accordingly, years of experience matters more than age because Lebron was lottery in 04' and 05', which gave him 3 seasons to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering the playoffs for the first time in 2006.. Otoh, Jordan was a couple years older but didn't get any time to develop his teams - his teams were thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 as 8 seeds, and therefore underperformed Lebron's veteran high seeds.

But when Jordan had 3 healthy seasons to develop the Bulls (1988), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron....

The difference is that Jordan was carrying rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win it, while Lebron had the East all-star center and a high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.

Not sure who the other all star you are mentioning for 05 is and Larry Hughes got a bad back injury his first year with the Cavs and never fully recovered from it. He was probably 60-70% of the player he once was after that. He was out of the league by age 31.

Zydrunas made his 2nd all-star team in 2005 by averaging 18/9 with 2.1 blocks (#6 rim protector)..

So Lebron missed the 2005 playoffs with the East all-star center - he needed to acquire a 22/5/5 1st team defender (Hughes) to make the 06' Playoffs (those Cavs also added the future COY that year)...

People forget 2005 - Gilbert Arenas and Larry Hughes made the 2nd Round (Hughes averaged 22/5/5), but then Lebron stole Hughes to beat Arenas in 2006. So Lebron almost always had better casts than his Eastern opponents.. He infact failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low seeds in 04', 05', or 19', and therefore only had high seeds/good teams in the playoffs.. So he never carried "bums" or low seeds in the playoffs like MJ or other stars who carried lottery casts to low seeds - Lebron infact got 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, while MJ was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 and forced to carry 8 seeds.

Btw, the historical record shows that Lebron was gifted a player that was achieving peak Pippen stats (hughes), but Lebron's ball-dominance made him stand in the corner and therefore destroyed him, similar to Ingram.. Otoh, jordan was an off-ball assist target, which put the ball in young pippen's hands and gave him the goat assist target to rack up dimes off of (enhancing his game tremendously).

[Cavsfansince84]

Zydrunas made his 2nd all-star team in 2005 by averaging 18/9 with 2.1 blocks (#6 rim protector)..

So Lebron missed the 2005 playoffs with the East all-star center - he needed to acquire a 22/6/5 1st team defender (Hughes) to make the 06' Playoffs (and the future COY)...

In 2005, Gilbert Arenas and Larry Hughes made the 2nd Round (Hughes averaged 22/5/5), but then Lebron stole Hughes to beat Arenas in 2006. So Lebron almost always had better casts than his Eastern opponents.. He infact failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low seeds in 04', 05', or 19', and therefore only had high seeds/good teams in the playoffs.. So he never carried "bums" or low seeds in the playoffs like MJ or other stars who carried lottery casts to low seeds - Lebron infact got 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, while MJ was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 and forced to carry 8 seeds.

Btw, the historical record shows that Lebron was gifted a player that was achieving peak Pippen stats, but his ball-dominance made him stand in the corner and therefore destroyed him, similar to Ingram.. Otoh, jordan was an off-ball assist target, which put the ball in young pippen's hands and gave him the goat assist target to rack up dimes off of (enhancing his game tremendously).

Big Z being an all star speaks more to how bad the center position was in the league at that time. He averaged 17/9/1 that year and was on low mpg the rest of his career. Hughes was never a good player for the Cavs. His shot was terrible and he lost some of his quickness due to the injuries. Pippen in 1990 was also better than big Z.

[conrad510]

Zydrunas made his 2nd all-star team in 2005 by averaging 18/9 with 2.1 blocks (#6 rim protector)..

So Lebron missed the 2005 playoffs with the East all-star center - he needed to acquire a 22/6/5 1st team defender (Hughes) to make the 06' Playoffs (and the future COY)...

In 2005, Gilbert Arenas and Larry Hughes made the 2nd Round (Hughes averaged 22/5/5), but then Lebron stole Hughes to beat Arenas in 2006. So Lebron almost always had better casts than his Eastern opponents.. He infact failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low seeds in 04', 05', or 19', and therefore only had high seeds/good teams in the playoffs.. So he never carried "bums" or low seeds in the playoffs like MJ or other stars who carried lottery casts to low seeds - Lebron infact got 3 years to develop his team into a favored high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs, while MJ was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 and forced to carry 8 seeds.

Btw, the historical record shows that Lebron was gifted a player that was achieving peak Pippen stats, but his ball-dominance made him stand in the corner and therefore destroyed him, similar to Ingram.. Otoh, jordan was an off-ball assist target, which put the ball in young pippen's hands and gave him the goat assist target to rack up dimes off of (enhancing his game tremendously).

Big Z being an all star speaks more to how bad the center position was in the league at that time. He averaged 17/9/1 that year and was on low mpg the rest of his career. Hughes was never a good player for the Cavs. His shot was terrible and he lost some of his quickness due to the injuries. Pippen in 1990 was also better than big Z.

by virtue of being a 2-time Eastern all-star, Zydrunas was one of the best players in the conference in 2005 and 2006 (when he peaked in PER).

And based on PER, WS/48, scoring, efficiency and rim protection - 05' and 06' Zydrunas > 90' Pippen..

Similarly, 09' Mo Williams was superior to 90' Pippen across the board offensively (PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM, scoring, efficiency), while the 09' Cavs had a better-ranked defense (3rd) than the 90' Bulls (19th) - this matters because it means that Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles - Jordan won the following year in 1991, while Lebron lost in 2010 as the favorite for the 2nd straight year, despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league juggernaut (21 on 34% in the last 3 games for Lebron, which lost the 2-1 lead).. Then he lost again in 2011.

Regarding Hughes - he didn't pan out alongside Lebron just like Ingram, IT, Rose and basically any spotty-shooting, ballhandler that Lebron ever played with.. Elite shooters are the only player-type that fits with Lebron, which speaks to his limited skillset and style (ball-dominance, non-elite jumpshooting skill)..

[Cavsfansince84]

by virtue of being a 2-time Eastern all-star, Zydrunas was one of the best players in the conference in 2005 and 2006 (when he peaked in PER).

And based on PER, WS/48, scoring, efficiency and rim protection - 05' and 06' Zydrunas > 90' Pippen..

Similarly, 09' Mo Williams was superior to 90' Pippen across the board offensively (PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM, scoring, efficiency), while the 09' Cavs had a better-ranked defense (3rd) than the 90' Bulls (19th) - this matters because it means that Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles - Jordan won the following year in 1991, while Lebron lost in 2010 as the favorite for the 2nd straight year, despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league juggernaut (21 on 34% in the last 3 games for Lebron, which lost the 2-1 lead).. Then he lost again in 2011.

Regarding Hughes - he didn't pan out alongside Lebron just like Ingram, IT, Rose and basically any spotty-shooting, ballhandler that Lebron ever played with.. Elite shooters are the only player-type that fits with Lebron, which speaks to his limited skillset and style (ball-dominance, non-elite jumpshooting skill)..

Alright, as someone who watched a huge % of the Cavs games from that era I can't do this. I've been around this merry go round too many times over the years. So believe w/e you want to about LeBron, MJ etc. It makes no difference to me. Larry Hughes was out of the league 2-3 years after he left the Cavs.

[conrad510]

by virtue of being a 2-time Eastern all-star, Zydrunas was one of the best players in the conference in 2005 and 2006 (when he peaked in PER).

And based on PER, WS/48, scoring, efficiency and rim protection - 05' and 06' Zydrunas > 90' Pippen..

Similarly, 09' Mo Williams was superior to 90' Pippen across the board offensively (PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM, scoring, efficiency), while the 09' Cavs had a better-ranked defense (3rd) than the 90' Bulls (19th) - this matters because it means that Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles - Jordan won the following year in 1991, while Lebron lost in 2010 as the favorite for the 2nd straight year, despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league juggernaut (21 on 34% in the last 3 games for Lebron, which lost the 2-1 lead).. Then he lost again in 2011.

Regarding Hughes - he didn't pan out alongside Lebron just like Ingram, IT, Rose and basically any spotty-shooting, ballhandler that Lebron ever played with.. Elite shooters are the only player-type that fits with Lebron, which speaks to his limited skillset and style (ball-dominance, non-elite jumpshooting skill)..

Alright, as someone who watched a huge % of the Cavs games from that era I can't do this. I've been around this merry go round too many times over the years. So believe w/e you want to about LeBron, MJ etc. It makes no difference to me. Larry Hughes was out of the league 2-3 years after he left the Cavs.

As bad as you think Zydrunas. Mo and Hughes were - Pippen was worse than them until around 1991 and they were much more decorated than him until then too.

Btw, Mo didn't join a good team in 2008 - the Cavs were a bummy, 45-win team and Mo's spacing was a perfect fit, so he added a lot of wins..

And don't be surprised that Lebron lost the 09' ECF with 18 on 38% from Mo - Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never had a carry-job against a good team in 2 decades of playing... He can't have carry-jobs against good teams because he can't win with high scoring - his high scoring is too ball-dominant (09') or too inefficient at the extra jumpshooting volume (15').. Since he can't win with high scoring, Lebron needs elite 1st options to play sidekick - guys that can outscore him when needed (even for entire playoff runs like 11' or 20').

Otoh, Jordan could win with high scoring because his scoring was partially-assisted, thereby elevating teammate role, and he had elite jumpshooting skill, so he could score while the ball moves (good brand)... Accordingly, jordan beat many top 5 SRS teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (many carry-jobs against top teams).

[prolific passer]

What a weird thread. Would you rather have a losing record in the finals or a winning record? Both Jordan and Lebron would probably take Russell's career over their own.

[Cavsfansince84]

As bad as you think Zydrunas. Mo and Hughes were - Pippen was worse than them until around 1991 and they were much more decorated than him until then too.

Btw, Mo didn't join a good team in 2008 - the Cavs were a bummy, 45-win team and Mo's spacing was a perfect fit, so he added a lot of wins..

And don't be surprised that Lebron lost the 09' ECF with 18 on 38% from Mo - Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never had a carry-job against a good team in 2 decades of playing... He can't have carry-jobs against good teams because he can't win with high scoring - it's too ball-dominant (09') or too inefficient at the extra jumpshooting volume (15').. Since he can't win with high scoring, Lebron needs elite 1st options to play sidekick, who can outscore him when needed (even for entire playoff runs like 11' or 20')

Stop putting words in my mouth here bro. I didn't say that Z and Mo were bad. Hughes was bad. Pippen by 1990 had turned the corner. He was great in the first two rounds of the 1990 playoffs and faltered some against the Pistons but by then he was an integral part of the triangle offense. Other than that I don't have any interest in continuing this convo though. This is like being in a timewarp from 2010 actually.

[prolific passer]

Cavs just should have selected Kevin Martin in the 04 draft. The ideal #2 guy for Lebron.

[conrad510]

What a weird thread. Would you rather have a losing record in the finals or a winning record? Both Jordan and Lebron would probably take Russell's career over their own.

Russell wasn't the offensive leader on his team, whereas Jordan doubled his sidekick's playoff scoring average, while also being the defensive leader:


DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

Watch on YouTube

;t=02m47s


Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:

ALBERT: "Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?"

FRATELLO: "There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

Watch on YouTube

;t=12m23s


^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

Watch on YouTube

;t=35m03s



Ultimately, Russell played without the 3-point line/spacing, so a defensive player could win.. But ever since the 3-point line was instituted, all 40 MVP's were dominant offensive players.. So we know that Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in the modern era, which makes Jordan's 6 rings as the best player the goat achievement.

[dcstanley]

In 2014 Lebron was 1st team All NBA...Kevin Love was 2nd team All NBA. Kyrie was a rising young star, who fulfilled that promise.

How many teams have had a 1st team and 2nd team All NBA player to start a season?

In 2015 this is the breakdown of All NBA players by conference:

1st team
G - Curry (West)
G - Harden (West)
F- Lebron (East)
F - AD (West)
C- Marc Gasol (West)

2nd team
G - CP3 (West)
G - Westbrook (West)
F - Aldridge (West)
F - Pau Gasol (East)
C - Cousins (West)

3rd team
G - Kyrie (East)
G - Klay Thompson (West)
F - Duncan (West)
F - Griffin (West)
C - Jordan (West)

12 of the 15 All NBA positions were held by Western Conference players. Two of the three Eastern conference players were on Cleveland (Lebron and Kyrie), the last position was held by Pau Gasol someone who was past his prime.

If you have two All NBA players and 90% of the rest of the conference has zero All NBA players, if you can't get to the finals something is very wrong.

That year the Clippers had three All NBA players in CP3, Blake Griffin, and Deandre Jordan...they did not make it to the finals. But I bet if the Clippers and Cavalier switched conferences it would be the Clippers who would be in the finals and the Cavaliers would not have made it.

Lebron's conference competition was subpar and that is not debatable......

How many playoff games did Love and Kyrie play that season? Love missed all but 4 games of the postseason and Kyrie suffered an injury in the conference semis that limited his impact, missed half of the conference finals, and missed all of the finals. The Cavs still made quick work of the conference. Inferior competition? Sure, but Lebron played most of that postseason with his two best teammates dealing with injuries.

The Cavs probably don't reach the finals in the Western conference if Love dislocates his shoulder in the first round and Dellavadova features more prominently because of injuries to Kyrie. If you can guarantee health, however, they would likely be the favorites to win the championship. How exactly does this particular season support your theory that Lebron teams underperform their talent level?

These "what if's" are exactly what I'm talking about.

I put injuries #1 as the #1 obstacle to a team getting the finals and winning. Why should Lebron be given any favors because injuries? Why do we care about injuries? That is part of the equation.

2002 - Tim Duncan injured
2003 - Dirk Nowitzki injured
2004 - Karl Malone injured, Sam Cassell injured
2005 - Kobe Bryant injured, Joe Johnson injured, Amare Stoudemire, Boris Diaw suspended
2006 - Amare Stoudemire injured
2008 - Trevor Ariza, Andrew Bynum injured
2009 - Kevin Garnett injured, Yao Ming injured
2010 - Kevin Garnett injured, Kendrick Perkins injured
2012 - Derrick Rose injured

Lets let 3rd parties speak about injuries and how it affects the playoffs:

https://www.sportscasting.com/most-significant-nba-playoffs-injuries-all-time/

Injuries are an unpleasant byproduct of competition. But one unfortunate twist of fate can undo a season’s worth of work when that injury happens during the NBA Playoffs. The 2021 playoffs are no different. Joel Embiid is nursing a torn meniscus into the conference semifinals for the Philadelphia 76ers. A groin injury to Anthony Davis hastened a quick end to the Los Angeles Lakers’ title defense.

NBA history is full of instances in which good and sometimes great teams dropped out of the playoffs too quickly because one or more of their stars went down to injury.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1179659-10-most-crushing-nba-playoff-injuries-of-all-time

We all know the story.

A team is cruising along, minding their own business on the way to the title when all of a sudden—crack!

All of their hopes and dreams of dominance are thwarted by one major injury. It has happened plenty of times in the past, and it happened again this year.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/news/nba-pm-historys-worst-playoff-injuries/

After watching two games of the Western Conference Finals, it has become pretty clear that Oklahoma City is not the same team, especially defensively, without star big man Serge Ibaka. With him, OKC may have been on their way to NBA Finals redemption and an eagerly-anticipated showdown between Kevin Durant and LeBron James. Without Ibaka, they just look like burnt toast.

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/the-last-20-nba-champions-if-there-were-no-playoff-injuries-nets-in-2021-rockets-in-2018

Injuries are an unfortunate part of the NBA game. If there were never any injuries, the entire course of NBA history would have been changed. That is why former players and pundits truly believe that health is the single most important factor in teams' title chances every year. Even the team with the most talent cannot achieve greatness without the health of their best players.

That is why repeating is twice as hard as winning a title and threepeating is exponentially harder than that. Jordan and the Bulls were able to withstand injuries to threepeat twice.

How were they able to do that? Is there any credit given to the Bulls for that...or are you only going to look to make excuses for Lebron's teams that got injured? Which then goes back to...are players really better now...or were they better prepared and in shape than players now.

You can't have it both ways. Why weren't Lebron's teams able to withstand injuries...because every team has them.....

Giving favors? By acknowledging that his chances of winning that season were massively derailed by injuries? How many series' has Jordan won without his two best teammates for the entire duration of a series? Do you really believe the Bulls are defeating the 1992 Knicks without Pippen and Grant? Or the 1993 Suns? Or how about the 1996 Sonics if Pippen and Rodman are out? They certainly don't beat the 1998 Pacers without the contributions of Pippen and Kukoc. Injuries are part of the game but they also provide context for why a given result occurred. You would be hard-pressed to find many teams that could defeat a 67 win team without two starters. If you are going to indict Lebron for not winning a championship that season then you must hold him to a standard that you don't hold any other player.

How exactly does this particular season (2015) support your theory that Lebron teams underperform their talent level?

The 2015 Cavs were the preseason favorite because Love was all-nba and Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014, so they were considered a superior cast to Klay & Dray, who weren't even all-stars heading into the 2015 season.

But the Cavs only won 53 games despite having the most talent in the league, while the Warriors' won 67 games with lesser talent due to their superior strategy of ball movement..

A weaker brand of ball has always caused Lebron's teams to underperform their talent - his super-teams were the preseason favorite every year from 2011-2016, but fell to Finals underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle - if that isn't underachieving talent and expectation, then I don't know what is..

And Lebron is the only guy where all his sidekicks outplay the league MVP like Kyrie in the 2016 Finals or Bosh in 2011 ECF, or AD outplayed future MVP Jokic in the 2020 WCF (complete domination).. Ultimately, Lebron's super-teams from 2011-2016 were so unfair that KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.

If you actually examine those seasons individually you wouldn't reach that conclusion. Lebron's "brand of ball" is the reason his team went down two starters in the 2015 finals? or the reason why a hobbled/post-prime Wade was outperformed by four players on the opposing team in the 2014 finals? Lebron was the best player in every finals from 2012-2016. Not sure how anyone that was paying attention would assess that he is responsible for his team losing to elite teams like the 2014 Spurs and 2015 Warriors when you consider the circumstances.

[conrad510]

As bad as you think Zydrunas. Mo and Hughes were - Pippen was worse than them until around 1991 and they were much more decorated than him until then too.

Btw, Mo didn't join a good team in 2008 - the Cavs were a bummy, 45-win team and Mo's spacing was a perfect fit, so he added a lot of wins..

And don't be surprised that Lebron lost the 09' ECF with 18 on 38% from Mo - Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never had a carry-job against a good team in 2 decades of playing... He can't have carry-jobs against good teams because he can't win with high scoring - it's too ball-dominant (09') or too inefficient at the extra jumpshooting volume (15').. Since he can't win with high scoring, Lebron needs elite 1st options to play sidekick, who can outscore him when needed (even for entire playoff runs like 11' or 20')

Hughes was bad. Pippen by 1990 had turned the corner.

How can you think Hughes is bad, but 90' Pippen was good?

05' Hughes'... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP


But again, Hughes joined a ball-dominator that turned him into a spot-up shooter, while Pippen played alongside the goat assist target that elevated his role and allowed him to develop.

So it's a skill deficit for Lebron - his ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping).. ultimately, he only knows how to team-hop, and doesn't know how to WIN (organic).

Infact Pippen's migraine shows how Jordan climbed the organic learning curve and Lebron didn't... Jordan learned that he needed to support Pippen more during those tough times - so when X-man was destroying Pippen in the 92' ECSF, Jordan confronted him in Game 7 as X-man was bullying Pippen and about to break him... This prevented another migraine and the Bulls avoided massive upset - only Pippen's poor play in that series nearly derailed the repeat.. But Jordan had climbed the organic learning curve and knew to support Pippen during that time.. Guys like Giannis, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Dirk - they climbed this organic learning curve and learned to win, while Lebron only learned to team-hop.

[DCasey91]

So between 1988-1998 there was 10 teams count them under 40% win rate for the duration.
Three teams were above 65%
Three teams were below 30%
Standard deviation: 0.131

2012-2021 (Lebron got to the finals before then that’s how “long” his prime is it stretches over 3 gens).
3 teams under 40%
No team over 65% not even the damn Warriors or Spurs ffs
No team under 30%
Standard deviation: 0.08 (A whole step function off lmao)

MJ fans and 90’s people arguing over comp can go kick rocks. It’s blindingly obvious

Lebron played in a “weak offensive” Eastern conference.

Jordan played in a weak league.

The irony of it is the mythos breaks down the further you delve into it.

Lebron weak conference
Bulls harder a fight of it against more laden defensive teams... cognitive dissonance, it’s like agree with one thing then disagree with another when it’s the same thing lol

Finances? Pfft

Schemes? Nah but physical stuff reigned supreme yadadadada, go watch it again with fresh eyes.

Whenever you turn to a lot of it is chest pumping and a pi**ing contest.

But when there’s very legitimate evidence it gets thrown about because of taboo.

[Cavsfansince84]

How can you think Hughes is bad, but 90' Pippen was good?

05' Hughes'... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

Are we not talking about the Larry Hughes who played for the Cavs? Hughes had a bad back injury his first year with the Cavs that cost him 46 games and that year his per/bpm were 14.0/-1.3 as a result. He was also all def 1st team in 05 but never made all def again after that due to the injuries. Don't confuse 05 Hughes with 06 Hughes as though they were the same player. LeBron didn't ruin his career, injuries did.

[conrad510]

How many playoff games did Love and Kyrie play that season? Love missed all but 4 games of the postseason and Kyrie suffered an injury in the conference semis that limited his impact, missed half of the conference finals, and missed all of the finals. The Cavs still made quick work of the conference. Inferior competition? Sure, but Lebron played most of that postseason with his two best teammates dealing with injuries.

The Cavs probably don't reach the finals in the Western conference if Love dislocates his shoulder in the first round and Dellavadova features more prominently because of injuries to Kyrie. If you can guarantee health, however, they would likely be the favorites to win the championship. How exactly does this particular season support your theory that Lebron teams underperform their talent level?

These "what if's" are exactly what I'm talking about.

I put injuries #1 as the #1 obstacle to a team getting the finals and winning. Why should Lebron be given any favors because injuries? Why do we care about injuries? That is part of the equation.

2002 - Tim Duncan injured
2003 - Dirk Nowitzki injured
2004 - Karl Malone injured, Sam Cassell injured
2005 - Kobe Bryant injured, Joe Johnson injured, Amare Stoudemire, Boris Diaw suspended
2006 - Amare Stoudemire injured
2008 - Trevor Ariza, Andrew Bynum injured
2009 - Kevin Garnett injured, Yao Ming injured
2010 - Kevin Garnett injured, Kendrick Perkins injured
2012 - Derrick Rose injured

Lets let 3rd parties speak about injuries and how it affects the playoffs:

https://www.sportscasting.com/most-significant-nba-playoffs-injuries-all-time/

Injuries are an unpleasant byproduct of competition. But one unfortunate twist of fate can undo a season’s worth of work when that injury happens during the NBA Playoffs. The 2021 playoffs are no different. Joel Embiid is nursing a torn meniscus into the conference semifinals for the Philadelphia 76ers. A groin injury to Anthony Davis hastened a quick end to the Los Angeles Lakers’ title defense.

NBA history is full of instances in which good and sometimes great teams dropped out of the playoffs too quickly because one or more of their stars went down to injury.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1179659-10-most-crushing-nba-playoff-injuries-of-all-time

We all know the story.

A team is cruising along, minding their own business on the way to the title when all of a sudden—crack!

All of their hopes and dreams of dominance are thwarted by one major injury. It has happened plenty of times in the past, and it happened again this year.

https://www.basketballinsiders.com/news/nba-pm-historys-worst-playoff-injuries/

After watching two games of the Western Conference Finals, it has become pretty clear that Oklahoma City is not the same team, especially defensively, without star big man Serge Ibaka. With him, OKC may have been on their way to NBA Finals redemption and an eagerly-anticipated showdown between Kevin Durant and LeBron James. Without Ibaka, they just look like burnt toast.

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba/the-last-20-nba-champions-if-there-were-no-playoff-injuries-nets-in-2021-rockets-in-2018

Injuries are an unfortunate part of the NBA game. If there were never any injuries, the entire course of NBA history would have been changed. That is why former players and pundits truly believe that health is the single most important factor in teams' title chances every year. Even the team with the most talent cannot achieve greatness without the health of their best players.

That is why repeating is twice as hard as winning a title and threepeating is exponentially harder than that. Jordan and the Bulls were able to withstand injuries to threepeat twice.

How were they able to do that? Is there any credit given to the Bulls for that...or are you only going to look to make excuses for Lebron's teams that got injured? Which then goes back to...are players really better now...or were they better prepared and in shape than players now.

You can't have it both ways. Why weren't Lebron's teams able to withstand injuries...because every team has them.....

Giving favors? By acknowledging that his chances of winning that season were massively derailed by injuries? How many series' has Jordan won without his two best teammates for the entire duration of a series? Do you really believe the Bulls are defeating the 1992 Knicks without Pippen and Grant? Or the 1993 Suns? Or how about the 1996 Sonics if Pippen and Rodman are out? They certainly don't beat the 1998 Pacers without the contributions of Pippen and Kukoc. Injuries are part of the game but they also provide context for why a given result occurred. You would be hard-pressed to find many teams that could defeat a 67 win team without two starters. If you are going to indict Lebron for not winning a championship that season then you must hold him to a standard that you don't hold any other player.

How exactly does this particular season (2015) support your theory that Lebron teams underperform their talent level?

The 2015 Cavs were the preseason favorite because Love was all-nba and Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014, so they were considered a superior cast to Klay & Dray, who weren't even all-stars heading into the 2015 season.

But the Cavs only won 53 games despite having the most talent in the league, while the Warriors' won 67 games with lesser talent due to their superior strategy of ball movement..

A weaker brand of ball has always caused Lebron's teams to underperform their talent - his super-teams were the preseason favorite every year from 2011-2016, but fell to Finals underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle - if that isn't underachieving talent and expectation, then I don't know what is..

And Lebron is the only guy where all his sidekicks outplay the league MVP like Kyrie in the 2016 Finals or Bosh in 2011 ECF, or AD outplayed future MVP Jokic in the 2020 WCF (complete domination).. Ultimately, Lebron's super-teams from 2011-2016 were so unfair that KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.

If you actually examine those seasons individually you wouldn't reach that conclusion. Lebron's "brand of ball" is the reason his team went down two starters in the 2015 finals? or the reason why a hobbled/post-prime Wade was outperformed by four players on the opposing team in the 2014 finals? Lebron was the best player in every finals from 2012-2016. Not sure how anyone that was paying attention would assess that he is responsible for his team losing to elite teams like the 2014 Spurs and 2015 Warriors when you consider the circumstances.

The 2014 Finals had nearly even odds, yet Lebron lost by record amount... And it wasn't a fluke - it's standard for Lebron to fall so hard in the Finals compared to the initial expectation - specifically, Lebron hand-picked the preseason favorite from 2011-2016 but fell to Finals underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle.. Again, it's standard for Lebron to flop in the Finals compared to the initial expectation.. Ultimately, his ball-dominance results in weak teammate fits and inferior strategy (ball-dominance), which yields lower team ceilings/Finals records.. So 2014 wasn't some fluke or bad situation - it was standard..

"B-b-but the Spurs just got hot!!!"... Yeah, so did the Magic, Mavs and Warriors...Ball-domination lets the defense rest, so they have more capacity to go off offensively.. That's why ball-domination is inferior strategy to ball movement, which wears the defense down more and wins the battle of attrition - the best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.

Furthermore, the problem is that Lebron has numerous series losses while shooting under 40%, while MJ doesn't have any - so there are series where Lebron's shooting efficiency can be blamed for the loss, but none for Jordan.

And everyone will claim that Lebron had no chance against the 15' Warriors and it's a miracle that he even won 2 games - but that's because Lebron made it look hard to win 2 games against the Warriors, while Marc Gasol made it look easy in those same playoffs.. i.e. Lebron played exactly like Westbrook on offense and Kukoc on defense, yet he was praised for it despite losing - it's a double-standard.. Some of his teammates played poorly, but Lebron was playing Harden-ball, so how can you blame them.

[conrad510]

How can you think Hughes is bad, but 90' Pippen was good?

05' Hughes'... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

Are we not talking about the Larry Hughes who played for the Cavs? Hughes had a bad back injury his first year with the Cavs that cost him 46 games and that year his per/bpm were 14.0/-1.3 as a result. He was also all def 1st team in 05 but never made all def again after that due to the injuries. Don't confuse 05 Hughes with 06 Hughes as though they were the same player. LeBron didn't ruin his career, injuries did.

Everyone thought Hughes was really good at that time, but Hughes only fit alongside an off-guard with elite jumpshooting skill like Arenas or MJ, not a ball-dominator like Lebron.

Your injury arguments would hold more water if there wasn't a massive a trend of Lebron destroying spotty-shooting ball-handlers or scorers like Hughes, Ingram, Jamison, Kuzma, Bosh, Love, IT, Rose, Clarkson, Hood, Crowder and more.. All these guys became bums or role players next to Lebron... Love/Bosh were 3rd options, but plenty of 3rd options are still dominant when needed like Klay, Manu, Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Worthy or Harden last year when Kyrie was healthy.

[Cavsfansince84]

Everyone thought Hughes was really good at that time, but Hughes only fit alongside an off-guard with elite jumpshooting skill like Arenas or MJ, not a ball-dominator like Lebron.

Your injury arguments would hold more water if there wasn't a massive a trend of Lebron destroying spotty-shooting ball-handlers or scorers like Hughes, Ingram, Jamison, Kuzma, Bosh, Love, IT, Rose, Clarkson, Hood, Crowder and more.. All these guys became bums or role players next to Lebron... Love/Bosh were 3rd options, but plenty of 3rd options are still dominant when needed like Klay, Manu, Ray Allen, Jrue Holiday, Worthy or Harden last year when Kyrie was healthy.

He was really good, for all of one year. Somehow though in your mind LeBron destroyed his career rather than admitting that he had some serious injuries which wrecked him. Here's some quotes from LH himself since nothing I say seems to matter to you:

LH: Probably my first season in Cleveland after leaving Washington. I suffered a few hand injuries during my time in Washington and that was something that bothered me. Obviously, if you’re not healthy, then you can’t play and you can’t produce. The best thing you can do is actually be healthy enough to get out there on the floor. When I got to Cleveland, that was really my mindset – to be healthy. But I think I got hurt in the preseason. I didn’t tell anybody until around December or January that I was actually hurt, but I pretty much shattered my middle finger on my right hand, so that season was sort of a here-we-go-again sort of deal with being injured, not being able to play, not being able to live up to the contract that I just signed. So, that was a pretty tough season.

[falcolombardi]

As bad as you think Zydrunas. Mo and Hughes were - Pippen was worse than them until around 1991 and they were much more decorated than him until then too.

Btw, Mo didn't join a good team in 2008 - the Cavs were a bummy, 45-win team and Mo's spacing was a perfect fit, so he added a lot of wins..

And don't be surprised that Lebron lost the 09' ECF with 18 on 38% from Mo - Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never had a carry-job against a good team in 2 decades of playing... He can't have carry-jobs against good teams because he can't win with high scoring - it's too ball-dominant (09') or too inefficient at the extra jumpshooting volume (15').. Since he can't win with high scoring, Lebron needs elite 1st options to play sidekick, who can outscore him when needed (even for entire playoff runs like 11' or 20')

Hughes was bad. Pippen by 1990 had turned the corner.

How can you think Hughes is bad, but 90' Pippen was good?

05' Hughes'... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP


But again, Hughes joined a ball-dominator that turned him into a spot-up shooter, while Pippen played alongside the goat assist target that elevated his role and allowed him to develop.

So it's a skill deficit for Lebron - his ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping).. ultimately, he only knows how to team-hop, and doesn't know how to WIN (organic).

Infact Pippen's migraine shows how Jordan climbed the organic learning curve and Lebron didn't... Jordan learned that he needed to support Pippen more during those tough times - so when X-man was destroying Pippen in the 92' ECSF, Jordan confronted him in Game 7 as X-man was bullying Pippen and about to break him... This prevented another migraine and the Bulls avoided massive upset - only Pippen's poor play in that series nearly derailed the repeat.. But Jordan had climbed the organic learning curve and knew to support Pippen during that time.. Guys like Giannis, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Dirk - they climbed this organic learning curve and learned to win, while Lebron only learned to team-hop.

wait, now jordan leadership is the reason pippen didnt have migraines? really? are we going full reddit/nba to Blame lebron for Kevin love depresion too?