How Would Larry Bird Rate Against Todays' Players?

[LakerLegend]

Older media have a vested interest in pushing today's players and today's game, you cannot count on them to give non-biased opinions. There is plenty of game tape around of both players, go watch it. Also spend some time learning the difference in the rules, and then form your own opinion.

First, there’s very few talking heads that actually played against him and the few there are a) he’s white and that plays a part b) he triggered them with his shite talking and beating them. The other old talking heads that dominate the airwaves didn’t see him during his prime. At worse he was the third best player in the toughest, most competitive decade with its best players behind only the best player of all time and the best PG of all time

Scott Hastings is a former bad boy piston bench guy and was on the Hawks team when Bird went for 60. He also has a local sports radio show and is the Nuggets analyst in Denver now. He talks about Bird and some of the old days occasionally, and his cohosts on the radio show are both younger than him so they ask him about guys. He said that the 60 point game happened because Dominique was talking **** and pissed Bird off, he is convinced that Bird could do whatever he wanted when he wanted and nobody could do anything about it prior to the injury.

How a guy who won 3 straight MVPs in the most stacked NBA in history could have been the 3rd best player of his era is crazy, although I would argue that Bird was cleaarly better than Magic and while Magic has more championships it is arguably if Magic was even the best player on the team for 2 or 3 of those championships.

Magic was 3 years younger and his head to head finals stats blow peak bird out of the water.

[Fencer reregistered]

Is he allowed to use his strength on defense?

Just see how much the small impact of not calling fouls when little guys dribble the ball near a defender have made on the PGs and Hardens of the world.

Larry played in a time where you'd get clotheslined going for dunks and even got mugged on the court by the opossing team. And a lot of that worked for him was because he thrived in the physicality and using his strength against wings down to what today would be Centers in the NBA. That also was key with his trash talking to win the mental game.

If there is no handchecking and he's not allowed to actually play defense that's going to hurt him a lot. You'd take away a lot of his great ability to shut down players with those rules.

Bird was a top defender because he was a great passing-lane jumper and general help defender, not because of on-ball defense, at which he was nothing special. But well-timed help defense is a bigger thing in today's game than it used to be -- so probably Bird still would be a very good defender.

And to be clear -- Bird is a big in today's league. He'd play the same position as Kevin Love; he'd just do so much better than even prime Love did.

[Fencer reregistered]

The comparisons to Luka and Jokic are weird.

If anything he would be the equivalent of KD.

Even though I have not seen enough Doncic, I have seen enough Doncic to know the comparison makes sense.
Even though Jokic is bigger and is carrying arround some fat in addition to being a larger framed man The Bird Jokic similarities are blatantly obvious.

These comparisons are not weird and they make more sense than a Bird Durant comparison.

You re right they are no weird if you are racist. If you watch the players and the way they play they do not make sense.

Other than being white Europeans what are the similarities between Jokic and Doncic? That whole comparison makes no sense considering their offensive and defensive games are nowhere close to similar.

Jokic and Bird make sense as they have similar games.

Doncic plays nothing like Bird.

When Doncic was a great-passing SF, the comparisons to Bird were very defensible. So it's still somewhat legit to compare them today, all my vehemence about Bird being a big in today's game notwithstanding.

[fallguy]

Larry would smoke everybody, particularly with modern training, nutrition, rest and travel advantages. And the league's focus on shooting.

He'd be in the top 2-3 players in the game if not the very best.

[ty 4191]

Magic was 3 years younger and his head to head finals stats blow peak bird out of the water.

Totally False.

Bird averaged 25.3/11.1/4.6 against Magic in the Finals.

Magic averaged 20.7/7.5/13.5 against Bird in the Finals.

[Blacksheep25]

He’d be unreal good.

[Lockdown504090]

Magic was 3 years younger and his head to head finals stats blow peak bird out of the water.

Totally False.

Bird averaged 25.3/11.1/4.6 against Magic in the Finals.

Magic averaged 20.7/7.5/13.5 against Bird in the Finals.

14 assists per game is pretty nutty, even in the janitor era.i just always wonder with these guys, what they could have done with our training, nutrition, recover, sports science, money, and coaching/training. I also wonder how a bunch of guys that were punching each other in the face when they got frustrated would do with the social media /24 hour news cycle.

[vital_signs]

Never been a bird fan but that highlight reel has me thinking I need to rethink my stance.

[Tatumfor2]

Magic was 3 years younger and his head to head finals stats blow peak bird out of the water.

Totally False.

Bird averaged 25.3/11.1/4.6 against Magic in the Finals.

Magic averaged 20.7/7.5/13.5 against Bird in the Finals.

14 assists per game is pretty nutty, even in the janitor era.i just always wonder with these guys, what they could have done with our training, nutrition, recover, sports science, money, and coaching/training. I also wonder how a bunch of guys that were punching each other in the face when they got frustrated would do with the social media /24 hour news cycle.

Magic was phenomenal! (I hated him so much! ) However, 8 of those assists per game were dump downs to Kareem in the post for the completely unstoppable sky-hook.

[ty 4191]

Prime Bird, pre massive back problems (1988-1989) would be the best player in today's NBA. Especially with 3 pointers being exponentially more valued and taken by today's players. Bird would be shooting .400 from three with a ton of 3's having grown up and playing in today's game, with no hard defense, spacing, and the total emphasis on shooting over paint play.

How dominant was Bird? Consider this:

I've written the years in which they placed and their positions in brackets. * denotes that they won MVP.

Over a 9 year stretch, Larry Bird won 3 MVPs, came in 2nd 4 times, 3rd once and 4th once. Sheer dominance.

Larry Bird: 88(2), 87(3), 86(), 85(), 84(*), 83(2), 82(2), 81(2), 80(4) = 9 (3 MVPs) (4 2nd places)

[Kilroy]

In an era where athleticism means less and shooting ability means more, I think Larry Legend would be a top 5 player at worst today.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

In an era where athleticism means less and shooting ability means more, I think Larry Legend would be a top 5 player at worst today.

In this year's league is old LeBron a top 5?
Was peak Harden ever better than peak Bird?
Do you think Trae Young is better than peak Bird.

Jokic the big guy who can pass and shoot is not better than peak Bird.
Gianis ?
Curry ?
Durant?

I am leaning towards peak Bird beieng the best player in the current league.

Has anybody emerged this year as being as good as 2016 Curry?
The season is still early.
Cosensus has Durant as the leading MVP candidate. Is current Durant better than 2017 Durant?
I think replacing 2017 Durant with 1987 Bird makes the 2017 Warriors better.

Wait a second, if I remove Durant from the 2017 Warriors who defends small forwards? Bird can defend small forwards if they don't take their man off the dribble and drive well. Kawai and LeBron might be a problem. I think the 1980s had more better small forwards at taking their man off the dribble. I don't think Draymond would be so great at Defending Kawai. I would have to up Iguodala's minutes. Bird may have to play some center and Draymond would have his minutes reduced but Draymond would play more center. I felt like Durant sort of made the flow of the 2016 Warriors offense worse but that was offset by Durant being a better scorer than Harrison Barnes. Bird would fit beautifully with the 2016 offense.

How much better was Harrison Barnes at defending small forwards than Bird? Could Draymond defend small forwards as well as Harrison Barnes did? Durant played good defense and was part of why the 2017 Warriors led the NBA in blocks. Duran'ts length was usefull.

I would like to replace 2017 Durant with a hypothetical best of 2017 Durant, best of 2016 Barnes best of 1987 Bird monster player.
That would end the question of who was the best team ever. The 2017 Warriors would be the the best team ever with the Bird/Durant/Barnes hybrid. Bird's presensense and intensity might make the 2017 Warriors play as hard as the 2016 Warriors. Barnes in the corner created space for the Curry, Klay plays. Barnes knew the 2016 artestry offense better than Durant did.Lets take it a step further and give also give the 2017 Warriors best of current Iguodala, Klay, Dray, Curry old hardenned pros and the best of 2016 magical young Iguodala, Klay, Dray, Curry with Bird/Durant/Barnes monster plus West/Speight/ hybrid, healthy uninjured Bogut, and Zaza/Ezeli hybrid and Rush/old Matt Barnes hybrid and Damian Jones/McAdoo Hybrid and current healthy Looney/2017 Looney Hybrid. Now that would be a kick ass team and clearly the best team ever. My imagination is drooling.

My god the ball would zip arround with Bird replacing Barnes or Durant


Peak Bird vs 2016 Curry? That is a tough one.

[Curmudgeon]

I tell myself not to get involved with these threads.

Bird's BBIQ was off the charts and so was his skill level. One night in 1986 he got bored in Portland and decided he would only shoot left handed. He proceeded to drop 47 lefthanded (with 16 boards and 11 assists).

Enough said.

[celticfan42487]

Is he allowed to use his strength on defense?

Just see how much the small impact of not calling fouls when little guys dribble the ball near a defender have made on the PGs and Hardens of the world.

Larry played in a time where you'd get clotheslined going for dunks and even got mugged on the court by the opossing team. And a lot of that worked for him was because he thrived in the physicality and using his strength against wings down to what today would be Centers in the NBA. That also was key with his trash talking to win the mental game.

If there is no handchecking and he's not allowed to actually play defense that's going to hurt him a lot. You'd take away a lot of his great ability to shut down players with those rules.

Bird was a top defender because he was a great passing-lane jumper and general help defender, not because of on-ball defense, at which he was nothing special. But well-timed help defense is a bigger thing in today's game than it used to be -- so probably Bird still would be a very good defender.

And to be clear -- Bird is a big in today's league. He'd play the same position as Kevin Love; he'd just do so much better than even prime Love did.

Well sure, but the physicality allowed in his game, and Bird embraced it, I'm not sure he'd recognize this game and not being able to body up players. I feel like it's a huge edge for him strength wise even if he's put at Center in this league but also mentally.

Bird was always giving himself a challenge but if he's forced to play practice 3 point layup version of basketball... that's just a completely different game despite it both being in the NBA. I think it would matter significantly for how good he'd be and more importantly how much he'd negatively effect the opposition.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Bird was a top defender because he was a great passing-lane jumper and general help defender, not because of on-ball defense, at which he was nothing special. But well-timed help defense is a bigger thing in today's game than it used to be -- so probably Bird still would be a very good defender.

And to be clear -- Bird is a big in today's league. He'd play the same position as Kevin Love; he'd just do so much better than even prime Love did.

Bird's on ball defense was fine vs power forwards but his team defense was what got him on the All-defensive teams.

Last night I watched the 1988 Pistons vs Celtics with Parrish suspended for beating down Laimbeer. Rick Mahorn was able to score by posting up Bird.. Love is probably stronger than Bird but not as fierce as Bird. Mahorn was very strong and fierce. Maybe Love could defend Mahorn better than Bird did.

Remember when David Lee was our center because the Warriors had no playable true centers? Remember Dan Issel as the center for the run and gun Nuggets.or Alvin Adams as the center for the Suns. I think Bird would be as good a defensive center as David Lee, Dan Issel or Alvin Adams but Mahorn who was not a scorer might be able to score on all of them because they are not strong enough. I think Draymond might do a better job on Mahorn because of Draymond's lower center of gravity kind of like Wes Unseld.

But Mahorn is more of a true center even though Mahorn played half his minutes at power forward. Bird could play center vs a lot of current centers but You would like more stot blocking from Bird and Steven Adams would be too strong for Bird but Steven Adams was too strong for Draymond and too strong for most of the current NBA centers. Mahorn was a bit like Steven Adams.

[draftnightsuit]

Bird was a top defender because he was a great passing-lane jumper and general help defender, not because of on-ball defense, at which he was nothing special. But well-timed help defense is a bigger thing in today's game than it used to be -- so probably Bird still would be a very good defender.

And to be clear -- Bird is a big in today's league. He'd play the same position as Kevin Love; he'd just do so much better than even prime Love did.

Bird was already a big when he played in the ‘80s. He won 2 of his 3 titles as a PF. He didn’t move to SF until McHale entered the starting lineup in ‘86.

The ‘84 Celtics won the title with a starting lineup of Dennis Johnson, Gerard Henderson, Cedric Maxwell, Bird, and Parish.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

As a rookie Bird got listed as a small forward because the Celtics best player from the previous year was Cedric Maxwell their starting power forward.

Media and fans ignore defensive roles and focuss on offense when assigning posstions.
Magic was always called a point guard even when Nixon was the point guard on defense and Cooper and Byron Scott defended point guards more than Magic did. Magic was not quick enough to be the primary defenders vs quick point guards.

I think the Media and fans are making a mistake when they assign possition by offensive roles rather tha by defensive roles. On offense the iffebse works if five guys blend well. On defense I think it it is more important to have a player able to defend each poistion. If Curry can't defend a quick point gurd that creates a bigger problem than Iguodala not being able to create much snall forward scoring offense. Iguodala does help with the ball handling and is at least almost as good as average back up small forwards at small forward style scoring. I don't think it is as easy for Draymond an the team to help Curry defend Kyrie as it is for the team to not be harmed by Iguodalla not quite bring starting small forward style scoring. I would define positions by what you can guard on defense.

When media and fans see a guy that shoots and passes like Bird they don't like calling him a power forward. I think Skinny rookie Dirk was a small forward for 1 year. Skinny rokie 18 year old KG was a small forward for a year. Bird played power forward in college and played center in college when the center rested.

Cedric Maxwell led the league in FG percentage twice while scoring about 18 points a game with inside scoring moves. Maxwell never defended small forwards before Bird arrived. While Maxwell's offense remained an inside scoring offense Maxwell had become the primary defender of small forwards by 1981. ML Carr spent at lot of time defending small forwards in 1980 and 1981. As Carr declined and McHale got better the Celtics found themselves with 3 very good power forwards and no small forward.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Champion 1981 Celtics defensive minutes vs Dr J and the 76ers in the playoffs

PG Archibald 40, Henderson 7, Duerod 1
OG Ford 27, Henderson 5, Carr 14, Bird 1, Maxwell 1 (Educated guess that Carr was used on Erving some while a forward took Clint Richardson. I remember Carr on Erving but that was probably more in 1980)
SF (when Bird fans complained that Bird deserved the finals MVP instead of Maxwell people pointed out that the Celtics would not have even reached the finals without Maxwell's defense on Erving. I think I remember the gimmick defense of rookie McHale defending Erving. McHale's arms were so long that it would take small forwards some time to adjust and realize that they need to beat McHale's slow feet and stay the hell away from McHale's long arms. McHale defending small forward became normal later. In the famous Bird Dominque Wilkins duel it is McHale guarding Wilkins while Wilkins guards Bird. You always want to guard Bird with speed because if you don't take away Bird's dribble you lose. The only chance to stop Bird's passing and shooting is to stop his dribble. Bird guarded Tree Rollins who was unable to turn himself into a scorer even with a large size advantage. Guarding Tree let Bird be a help defender pest which was what Bird was best at. Parrish guarded Willis who was as big as a Center but had power forward speed and very good inside scoring moves. Antoine Carr was fast back then and skilled. Jazz Antoine Carr was just strong and skilled but lost his speed.)

SF Maxwell 30 minutes, McHale 2 minute gimmick defense, Carr 3 minutes, Bird 13 minutes
PF Bird 29 minutes, McHale 14.5, Maxwell 4.5
Center, Parrish 30 minutes, Robey 16, Fernstein 0.5, McHale 1.5

[Strepbacter]

He'd get badly exploited on defense. There's a reason guys like McHale were forced to guard other star SF's.

Bird couldn't guard his own shadow.

[Kilroy]

In an era where athleticism means less and shooting ability means more, I think Larry Legend would be a top 5 player at worst today.

In this year's league is old LeBron a top 5?
Was peak Harden ever better than peak Bird?
Do you think Trae Young is better than peak Bird.

Jokic the big guy who can pass and shoot is not better than peak Bird.
Gianis ?
Curry ?
Durant?

I am leaning towards peak Bird beieng the best player in the current league.

Has anybody emerged this year as being as good as 2016 Curry?
The season is still early.
Cosensus has Durant as the leading MVP candidate. Is current Durant better than 2017 Durant?
I think replacing 2017 Durant with 1987 Bird makes the 2017 Warriors better.

Wait a second, if I remove Durant from the 2017 Warriors who defends small forwards? Bird can defend small forwards if they don't take their man off the dribble and drive well. Kawai and LeBron might be a problem. I think the 1980s had more better small forwards at taking their man off the dribble. I don't think Draymond would be so great at Defending Kawai. I would have to up Iguodala's minutes. Bird may have to play some center and Draymond would have his minutes reduced but Draymond would play more center. I felt like Durant sort of made the flow of the 2016 Warriors offense worse but that was offset by Durant being a better scorer than Harrison Barnes. Bird would fit beautifully with the 2016 offense.

How much better was Harrison Barnes at defending small forwards than Bird? Could Draymond defend small forwards as well as Harrison Barnes did? Durant played good defense and was part of why the 2017 Warriors led the NBA in blocks. Duran'ts length was usefull.

I would like to replace 2017 Durant with a hypothetical best of 2017 Durant, best of 2016 Barnes best of 1987 Bird monster player.
That would end the question of who was the best team ever. The 2017 Warriors would be the the best team ever with the Bird/Durant/Barnes hybrid. Bird's presensense and intensity might make the 2017 Warriors play as hard as the 2016 Warriors. Barnes in the corner created space for the Curry, Klay plays. Barnes knew the 2016 artestry offense better than Durant did.Lets take it a step further and give also give the 2017 Warriors best of current Iguodala, Klay, Dray, Curry old hardenned pros and the best of 2016 magical young Iguodala, Klay, Dray, Curry with Bird/Durant/Barnes monster plus West/Speight/ hybrid, healthy uninjured Bogut, and Zaza/Ezeli hybrid and Rush/old Matt Barnes hybrid and Damian Jones/McAdoo Hybrid and current healthy Looney/2017 Looney Hybrid. Now that would be a kick ass team and clearly the best team ever. My imagination is drooling.

My god the ball would zip arround with Bird replacing Barnes or Durant


Peak Bird vs 2016 Curry? That is a tough one.

I did say "at worst"... In the last 10 years, I'd have peak Bird top 3 with LeBron and KD... Any one of them could be the best player in the league any given night.