Enough is Enough vogel has got to go.

[LAKESHOW]

Everyone knows Vogel can't coach offense, that's obvious. But, weve won with him. And his grinding style of defense has run its course. He coaches up the defense, then hands the ball over to Bron and says, that side of the court is all yours. My job is done here.
Its time to bring in Carlisle. A fresh new approach is whats needed

[tamaraw08]

Everyone knows Vogel can't coach offense, that's obvious. But, weve won with him. And his grinding style of defense has run its course. He coaches up the defense, then hands the ball over to Bron and says, that side of the court is all yours. My job is done here.
Its time to bring in Carlisle. A fresh new approach is whats needed

But my question is how much do we attribute the greatness of this team’s defense to Vogel’s defensive schemes and how much is because he plays heavy minutes to players with great defensive abilities and intelligence? He refuses to play THT because he makes mistakes and limited Marc’s mins because he can’t switch but the team also suffered from lack of offensive weapons.

[tamaraw08]

Frank Vogel has earned the reputation of being a very good defensive minded coach. I strongly feel that what helped execute his good defensive principles was having several good defenders on the team. KCP who hounded quick PGs is gone. The high IQ Caruso who can guard multiple positions is gone. Kuzma is a decent 6-9 flexible forward is gone. Vogel also was so stubborn in not playing players who have weaknesses like Marc and Harrell. In comes WB, Melo, Ellington, Monk etc.
Some Howard fans here insist, the Lakers missed his presence, well he's back.
Let us see now, how Frank navigates this team, hopefully he doesn't overplay Ariza and Bazemore for 35 mins while benching Ellington and Monk.

[LAL1947]

Hey, hey, ho, ho!
This thread title got to go.

[Beethoven]

Bump. This thread has definitely gone through some cycles of not aging well to ...well..aging well.

[petszata]

Defo we need changes.... the team is a total joke right now. I don't see how we can even make it to the 2nd round of playoffs.

Poor trades to fill the roster... Vogel has to go ...

[Landsberger]

Vogel will probably take the fall if this gets worse but he's not to blame. Getting Westbrook and Melo to play defense or think cohesively within a scheme where they are not the focus isn't going to happen even if Phil came walking through the door. There is a reason both of those guys have been on multiple deep teams and have been let go.

[koogiking]

Frank Vogel isn't the issue, the issue is that Russ is uncoachable and will not follow the gameplan regardless of who is coaching

Lakers were winning playing slower, however Russ who feels he can't play slow insisted on playing wild and crazy killing the flow of the game.

"In my opinion" Russ needs to go in order for the Lakers to save their season.

[tamaraw08]

After the Bulls game, I finally hear Lakers nation Trevor Lane started to whine about Vogel's lack of adjustments. Kamenetzki brothers on their podcast are talking about murmurs of Frank's coaching ability.
I refused to give Vogel full credit for the great success on last year's defensive rating because he heavily relied on very good defenders plus benching bad ones, and so I REFUSE to blame him solely for the bad defense they have been playing this season.
Last night, the PAC 12 boys torched the Lakers and I can't see that happening if Frank had Kuzma, Caruso and KCP.
Lavine, DeRozan and Ball didn't exert so much effort to score those points. Demarr had his usual shots. Ball didn't do step back 3's, all his outside shots were wide open. Davis gave Lavine so much shooting space etc.

[Eric Bieniemy]

Vogel will probably take the fall if this gets worse but he's not to blame. Getting Westbrook and Melo to play defense or think cohesively within a scheme where they are not the focus isn't going to happen even if Phil came walking through the door. There is a reason both of those guys have been on multiple deep teams and have been let go.

You're not wrong.

After James is back, if I'm Vogel and I get the sense that my days are numbered, I'm coaching to strictly win games.

That means Westbrook is probably relegated to third string PG behind James and Rondo.

Westbrook as my quarterback, making all the crucial decisions, is like having Madonna as my wife. I just don't trust it. Something really bad and self-destructive will happen.

[Hans1984]

Vogel will probably have to go but we all know that won't fix a thing. The roster is terribly constructed and that is not Vogel's fault.

[Beethoven]

Westbrook as my quarterback, making all the crucial decisions, is like having Madonna as my wife. I just don't trust it. Something really bad and self-destructive will happen.

The 30yr old Like a Virgin Madonna or the 70 yr old Madonna ?

[Ball so hard]

Vogel will probably have to go but we all know that won't fix a thing. The roster is terribly constructed and that is not Vogel's fault.

Spot on. You might as well clean house if you’re going to fire Vogel. Would anyone feel better with Fizdale at the helm. Perhaps we should bring back Luke once he’s canned. This disaster starts with Pelinka.

[tamaraw08]

Westbrook as my quarterback, making all the crucial decisions, is like having Madonna as my wife. I just don't trust it. Something really bad and self-destructive will happen.

The 30yr old Like a Virgin Madonna or the 70 yr old Madonna ?

Does it really matter? She already said Papa don't preach....

[tamaraw08]

Vogel will probably have to go but we all know that won't fix a thing. The roster is terribly constructed and that is not Vogel's fault.

Spot on. You might as well clean house if you’re going to fire Vogel. Would anyone feel better with Fizdale at the helm. Perhaps we should bring back Luke once he’s canned. This disaster starts with Pelinka.

I actually get nervous at the thought of them firing Vogel because I just really doubt if Fizdale can fix anything... unless he's fully supported by Lebron and he has the guts to yell at anybody including Davis and Westbrook. Davis came out so flat the other night but Frank should have jumped and call a time out after Davis piss poor defense on the perimeter but he didn't. However I'm not sure that James really support him.
But I don't think we should blame Pelinka for the Westbrook trade. Several sources reported that it was Davis who recruited Russ.
https://www.yahoo.com/now/report-russell-westbrook-met-lebron-142427784.html

Mike DePrisco
July 30, 2021·2 min read
Report: Westbrook met with LeBron, AD before Lakers trade originally appeared on NBC Sports Washington

Before Wizards and Lakers completed a trade Thursday night sending Russell Westbrook to Los Angeles for three players and a first-round pick in the 2021 NBA Draft, the star guard met with LeBron James and Anthony Davis to discuss such a possibility, according to the Los Angeles Times.

Westbrook and Davis went to James' home in LA roughly two weeks ago to have a conversation about the former Wizards guard potentially coming to the Lakers this offseason, per the LA Times' Broderick Turner.

I really don't think Rob is that stupid for him to think this is a great move, but the freaking AD thinks he is that smart to engineer this and as a concession, that he'll play center to open things up on offense.
I hate the move but I understand the reasoning of it. Lebron at 37 canNOT carry this team's offense every SINGLE possession and they badly needed another shot creator/playmaker. Unfortunately AD grossly miscalculated Westbrook's BBIQ. The guy is freak athlete but his bad decisions are just too much to handle. They hoped it'll work bec Wade, who was also ball dominant made it work but Dwayne is so much smarter plus they had a great 3&D player in Shane Battier.. no way an 38 yr old Ariza can duplicate that.

[SK21209]

It should be a law that if you advocate for firing a coach, you then have to suggest who the replacement should be and what he or she should/would do differently. Based on all available evidence, if we fire Vogel and give Fizdale the job we'd get more AD at the 5 (which we'll probably get anyway, given the rotation the last few games) and take a big hit in terms of defensive tactics come playoff time. That is not an upgrade. If you told me Nick Nurse or someone like that would make an unprecedented jump to another NBA team in the middle of a season yeah maybe get rid f Vogel, but that's obviously not an option.

The only path forward with this group is (1) hoping Vogel can coach this roster to a Top 10ish defense, which I think he can, and (2) hoping the return/sustained health of LeBron and the other missing guys takes care of the offense in and of itself. When LeBron has actually played this year the offense has actually preformed pretty well despite it feeling clunky when you watch the game. I don't see how a new coach changes our odds at a title this year.

[SweetTouch]

sources are saying lebrons injury is some he has always dealt with. and he would be playing if the team needed it

He disagreed with the staff and said they do need him, but they told him to rest because they should be able to win

LBJ is now just second guessing the coaching staff.

man I can't wait to watch this team again with the King, these knucleheads are driving me crazy

[Pythagoras]

sources are saying lebrons injury is some he has always dealt with. and he would be playing if the team needed it

He disagreed with the staff and said they do need him, but they told him to rest because they should be able to win

LBJ is now just second guessing the coaching staff.

man I can't wait to watch this team again with the King, these knucleheads are driving me crazy

This one honestly doesn’t bother me. In the last finals appearance of the Celtics’ KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen era, Doc decided to load manage his big 3 down the stretch. I remember reading an article back then, that all three of them weren’t happy about the decision. Doc stuck to his guns though, and they ended up beating very good Cavs and Magic teams and pushing the Lakers to 7 en route to almost winning it all.

It’s not always going to be rainbows and sunshine with the coach and players, and this is an instance I view as just a healthy disagreement. Lebron is a great player, he knows he can help this team, he sees them struggling and wants to get out there and help. No shame in that. Additionally, there’s no shame in Vogel saying no to Lebron, understanding the team needs him come playoff time more than in these November games.

[tamaraw08]

sources are saying lebrons injury is some he has always dealt with. and he would be playing if the team needed it

He disagreed with the staff and said they do need him, but they told him to rest because they should be able to win

LBJ is now just second guessing the coaching staff.

man I can't wait to watch this team again with the King, these knucleheads are driving me crazy

This one honestly doesn’t bother me. In the last finals appearance of the Celtics’ KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen era, Doc decided to load manage his big 3 down the stretch. I remember reading an article back then, that all three of them weren’t happy about the decision. Doc stuck to his guns though, and they ended up beating very good Cavs and Magic teams and pushing the Lakers to 7 en route to almost winning it all.

It’s not always going to be rainbows and sunshine with the coach and players, and this is an instance I view as just a healthy disagreement. Lebron is a great player, he knows he can help this team, he sees them struggling and wants to get out there and help. No shame in that. Additionally, there’s no shame in Vogel saying no to Lebron, understanding the team needs him come playoff time more than in these November games.

I heard that Dallas "load managed" Dirk before and he hated it but relented. Dallas then got upset by the 8th seed Warriors with Dirk shooting just 38% in 2007. I have a bad feeling Lebron has some games where he doesn't want to play and would share some of his "issues", Lakers then get overly cautious and force him to sit.

[Pythagoras]

sources are saying lebrons injury is some he has always dealt with. and he would be playing if the team needed it

He disagreed with the staff and said they do need him, but they told him to rest because they should be able to win

LBJ is now just second guessing the coaching staff.

man I can't wait to watch this team again with the King, these knucleheads are driving me crazy

This one honestly doesn’t bother me. In the last finals appearance of the Celtics’ KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen era, Doc decided to load manage his big 3 down the stretch. I remember reading an article back then, that all three of them weren’t happy about the decision. Doc stuck to his guns though, and they ended up beating very good Cavs and Magic teams and pushing the Lakers to 7 en route to almost winning it all.

It’s not always going to be rainbows and sunshine with the coach and players, and this is an instance I view as just a healthy disagreement. Lebron is a great player, he knows he can help this team, he sees them struggling and wants to get out there and help. No shame in that. Additionally, there’s no shame in Vogel saying no to Lebron, understanding the team needs him come playoff time more than in these November games.

I heard that Dallas "load managed" Dirk before and he hated it but relented. Dallas then got upset by the 8th seed Warriors with Dirk shooting just 38% in 2007. I have a bad feeling Lebron has some games where he doesn't want to play and would share some of his "issues", Lakers then get overly cautious and force him to sit.

In Dallas’ championship season, Dirk played fewer MPG, and fewer total minutes on the season than he had in any season over the previous decade.