So what COULD we have gotten for Kyle Lowry?

[douggood]

The thread title is "could" not "should". I'd use the spot for a 3rd centre at least. Its stupid to not have a backup for a high injury risk position. Exhibit A is what's occurring right now. I hope this works out but if we get nothing for Dragic, its a loss. And there are plenty of young guys out there to gamble on. This team is likely a .500 at best team, people underrate the competition.

dragic isnt the reason we dont have a 3rd string C, dekker or ish wainright would be on the roster instead.

[ItsDanger]

The thread title is "could" not "should". I'd use the spot for a 3rd centre at least. Its stupid to not have a backup for a high injury risk position. Exhibit A is what's occurring right now. I hope this works out but if we get nothing for Dragic, its a loss. And there are plenty of young guys out there to gamble on. This team is likely a .500 at best team, people underrate the competition.

dragic isnt the reason we dont have a 3rd string C, dekker or ish wainright would be on the roster instead.

Big assumption there. Its OK for management to take an L sometimes. Nobodys perfect. The question is when you take that L, how do react?

[vulture]

I've said this before, but this will go down as one of Masai's worst deals, but it's also hard to know what was available at the deadline.
I'm underwhelmed with Precious and I'm sure he will improve, but I think he will be included in a trade at some point.

[Los_29]

I've said this before, but this will go down as one of Masai's worst deals, but it's also hard to know what was available at the deadline.
I'm underwhelmed with Precious and I'm sure he will improve, but I think he will be included in a trade at some point.

Lowry was a free agent.

[vulture]

I've said this before, but this will go down as one of Masai's worst deals, but it's also hard to know what was available at the deadline.
I'm underwhelmed with Precious and I'm sure he will improve, but I think he will be included in a trade at some point.

Lowry was a free agent.

I know, but I'm referring more to the trade deadline. Once it was free agency, Masai didn't have as much leverage so he took what he found acceptable.

[tecumseh18]

You could have let him walk instead of doing a S&T. You're seeing the negative consequences of keeping Dragic on this roster now. I hope there is some exit strategy here because this is a net loss on this trade so far

What are the negative consequences of having Dragic on the roster? He's been a model citizen so far and he will likely be moved by the deadline.

Dragic was never a key part of the deal. They just needed his salary to make a deal work so they could get Precious.

If you don't like Precious, that's another issue, but the focus on Dragic baffles me. He's an expiring filler contract.

+1

raptors chose birch + achiuwa + dragic over 16 mil cap space. birch signing with mle was only possible by staying over the cap.

looking at the list of ufa who signed for more than mle but less than 16 mil, not many worthy of signings.
rose, mcdormett, olynyk, barton, oubre is basically the list

You're missing the "big" name - Rashaun Holmes, who re-signed with the Kings for FAR less than we could have offered him. Before the Lowry sign and trade was finalized, there were rumours that Raps were in on Holmes.

I would have preferred to let Lowry walk and sign Holmes. But he has no shooting range, where at least Precious is working on his shot. Gotta trust the Raptors' management here. They're viewing this as a development year.

[Johnny Bball]

The thread title is "could" not "should". I'd use the spot for a 3rd centre at least. Its stupid to not have a backup for a high injury risk position. Exhibit A is what's occurring right now. I hope this works out but if we get nothing for Dragic, its a loss. And there are plenty of young guys out there to gamble on. This team is likely a .500 at best team, people underrate the competition.

We already have an open roster spot to do that at the deadline if we want. The idea is to stay under the tax. And who in the world is that C that's just sitting at home right now to sign? Nobody.

If its by trade, and trade of anyone including Dragic, then have a modicum of patience until the deadline comes around. You know full well few players get trade in November.

Who is arguing that we are .500 or slightly better as best case scenario and what's even the point of that comment?

And we have additional backup centres in Boucher or smallball centres, so don't pretend there is no backup or depth when trying to play smallball centre is pretty much the goal.

[Johnny Bball]

What are the negative consequences of having Dragic on the roster? He's been a model citizen so far and he will likely be moved by the deadline.

Dragic was never a key part of the deal. They just needed his salary to make a deal work so they could get Precious.

If you don't like Precious, that's another issue, but the focus on Dragic baffles me. He's an expiring filler contract.

+1

raptors chose birch + achiuwa + dragic over 16 mil cap space. birch signing with mle was only possible by staying over the cap.

looking at the list of ufa who signed for more than mle but less than 16 mil, not many worthy of signings.
rose, mcdormett, olynyk, barton, oubre is basically the list

You're missing the "big" name - Rashaun Holmes, who re-signed with the Kings for FAR less than we could have offered him. Before the Lowry sign and trade was finalized, there were rumours that Raps were in on Holmes.

I would have preferred to let Lowry walk and sign Holmes. But he has no shooting range, where at least Precious is working on his shot. Gotta trust the Raptors' management here. They're viewing this as a development year.

There is no possible way you can sign Holmes with cap space and then also get Achuiwa and sign Birch. And as much as I like Holmes, he doesn't space the floor either and was a big ticket @ 20 mil.

[OakleyDokely]

+1

raptors chose birch + achiuwa + dragic over 16 mil cap space. birch signing with mle was only possible by staying over the cap.

looking at the list of ufa who signed for more than mle but less than 16 mil, not many worthy of signings.
rose, mcdormett, olynyk, barton, oubre is basically the list

You're missing the "big" name - Rashaun Holmes, who re-signed with the Kings for FAR less than we could have offered him. Before the Lowry sign and trade was finalized, there were rumours that Raps were in on Holmes.

I would have preferred to let Lowry walk and sign Holmes. But he has no shooting range, where at least Precious is working on his shot. Gotta trust the Raptors' management here. They're viewing this as a development year.

There is no possible way you can sign Holmes with cap space and then also get Achuiwa and sign Birch. And as much as I like Holmes, he doesn't space the floor either and was a big ticket @ 20 mil.

Holmes is also 28 years old. Some people are complaining that VV and Siakam don't fit the Raps timeline and they're younger than Homes.

[tecumseh18]

+1

raptors chose birch + achiuwa + dragic over 16 mil cap space. birch signing with mle was only possible by staying over the cap.

looking at the list of ufa who signed for more than mle but less than 16 mil, not many worthy of signings.
rose, mcdormett, olynyk, barton, oubre is basically the list

You're missing the "big" name - Rashaun Holmes, who re-signed with the Kings for FAR less than we could have offered him. Before the Lowry sign and trade was finalized, there were rumours that Raps were in on Holmes.

I would have preferred to let Lowry walk and sign Holmes. But he has no shooting range, where at least Precious is working on his shot. Gotta trust the Raptors' management here. They're viewing this as a development year.

There is no possible way you can sign Holmes with cap space and then also get Achuiwa and sign Birch. And as much as I like Holmes, he doesn't space the floor either and was a big ticket @ 20 mil.

At no point did I assert that. Obviously, by letting Kyle walk, we don't get Achuiwa.

Holmes ended signing back with the Kings for <11 mill/yr. As for Birch, the assumption before free agency opened was that we could use our cap space on a bigger name and bring Khem back for the room exception (~$4.8 mill). Or generate more cap space and use it to sign both Holmes AND Birch. The whole point of the Norm for Trent deal was to take advantage of Trents low cap hold (we could have even made it lower, if necessary) and allow the Raps to do things like that.

[tecumseh18]

You're missing the "big" name - Rashaun Holmes, who re-signed with the Kings for FAR less than we could have offered him. Before the Lowry sign and trade was finalized, there were rumours that Raps were in on Holmes.

I would have preferred to let Lowry walk and sign Holmes. But he has no shooting range, where at least Precious is working on his shot. Gotta trust the Raptors' management here. They're viewing this as a development year.

There is no possible way you can sign Holmes with cap space and then also get Achuiwa and sign Birch. And as much as I like Holmes, he doesn't space the floor either and was a big ticket @ 20 mil.

Holmes is also 28 years old. Some people are complaining that VV and Siakam don't fit the Raps timeline and they're younger than Homes.

The above list of a FA targets included Olynyk, so it was fair to add Holmes in there.

And what is the Raptors' timeline? Fred and Pascal are clearly in their primes, and OG is getting there. Trent at 22 is much, much better than I expected him to be, and so is Scottie. With good health and a serviceable C, like Holmes, the time is now. I'm not that impressed with the teams on the Eastern Conference leaderboard - Nets, Bulls and Wizards.

[OakleyDokely]

There is no possible way you can sign Holmes with cap space and then also get Achuiwa and sign Birch. And as much as I like Holmes, he doesn't space the floor either and was a big ticket @ 20 mil.

Holmes is also 28 years old. Some people are complaining that VV and Siakam don't fit the Raps timeline and they're younger than Homes.

The above list of a FA targets included Olynyk, so it was fair to add Holmes in there.

And what is the Raptors' timeline? Fred and Pascal are clearly in their primes, and OG is getting there. Trent at 22 is much, much better than I expected him to be, and so is Scottie. With good health and a serviceable C, like Holmes, the time is now. I'm not that impressed with the teams on the Eastern Conference leaderboard - Nets, Bulls and Wizards.

I think it comes down to whether you want:

Holmes (28-31 years then unrestricted) @ 12M

Vs

Precious (22-24 years then restricted) @ 3M

Given where the Raps are, I'd rather gamble on Precious. Raps get a cheap young player with potential under team control for a while. While Holmes might make the Raps better now, he doesn't make the Raps a contender and he will be close to free agency again when the Raps are likely to seriously contend.

[VanWest82]

I believe the options were Dennis Schroder's bird rights, Maxey + two 2nds, and Dragic + Precious.

There will be people claiming they knew all along that Maxey was about to break out and Masai screwed up but I like the Dragic + Precious package. We need a vet to help run the offense when Fred has to sit out due to high work load and Precious, although raw, has potential and plays a position of need. The Lakers package was a non-starter. Other potential packages weren't actually options because Kyle would've vetoed them. This discussion is tired.

[Los_29]

I've said this before, but this will go down as one of Masai's worst deals, but it's also hard to know what was available at the deadline.
I'm underwhelmed with Precious and I'm sure he will improve, but I think he will be included in a trade at some point.

Lowry was a free agent.

I know, but I'm referring more to the trade deadline. Once it was free agency, Masai didn't have as much leverage so he took what he found acceptable.

How do we know he didn't? We still don't know what teams were offering at the deadline.

[Johnny Bball]

You're missing the "big" name - Rashaun Holmes, who re-signed with the Kings for FAR less than we could have offered him. Before the Lowry sign and trade was finalized, there were rumours that Raps were in on Holmes.

I would have preferred to let Lowry walk and sign Holmes. But he has no shooting range, where at least Precious is working on his shot. Gotta trust the Raptors' management here. They're viewing this as a development year.

There is no possible way you can sign Holmes with cap space and then also get Achuiwa and sign Birch. And as much as I like Holmes, he doesn't space the floor either and was a big ticket @ 20 mil.

At no point did I assert that. Obviously, by letting Kyle walk, we don't get Achuiwa.

Holmes ended signing back with the Kings for <11 mill/yr. As for Birch, the assumption before free agency opened was that we could use our cap space on a bigger name and bring Khem back for the room exception (~$4.8 mill). Or generate more cap space and use it to sign both Holmes AND Birch. The whole point of the Norm for Trent deal was to take advantage of Trents low cap hold (we could have even made it lower, if necessary) and allow the Raps to do things like that.

I still don't see how that's possible being under the cap and not having the MLE.

[Badonkadonk]

What are the negative consequences of having Dragic on the roster? He's been a model citizen so far and he will likely be moved by the deadline.

Dragic was never a key part of the deal. They just needed his salary to make a deal work so they could get Precious.

If you don't like Precious, that's another issue, but the focus on Dragic baffles me. He's an expiring filler contract.

+1

raptors chose birch + achiuwa + dragic over 16 mil cap space. birch signing with mle was only possible by staying over the cap.

looking at the list of ufa who signed for more than mle but less than 16 mil, not many worthy of signings.
rose, mcdormett, olynyk, barton, oubre is basically the list

You're missing the "big" name - Rashaun Holmes, who re-signed with the Kings for FAR less than we could have offered him. Before the Lowry sign and trade was finalized, there were rumours that Raps were in on Holmes.

That's... not how the cap holds would've played out. Richaun* Holmes signed for just enough that you can tell the Kings were looking at who the Raps would have had to renounce (eg. Yuta, Boucher) if they were going to be outbid.

In the theoretical world where the Raps renounced ALL their holds, let Lowry walk and gambled in FA, they could have gambled on Holmes or Allen with the ~$20M or so they'd have, but that wasn't a very realistic scenario.

I get that people are mad Morey didn't want to trade 1sts or Maxey or the Lakers didn't want to trade THT, but it is what it is.

[douggood]

There is no possible way you can sign Holmes with cap space and then also get Achuiwa and sign Birch. And as much as I like Holmes, he doesn't space the floor either and was a big ticket @ 20 mil.

At no point did I assert that. Obviously, by letting Kyle walk, we don't get Achuiwa.

Holmes ended signing back with the Kings for <11 mill/yr. As for Birch, the assumption before free agency opened was that we could use our cap space on a bigger name and bring Khem back for the room exception (~$4.8 mill). Or generate more cap space and use it to sign both Holmes AND Birch. The whole point of the Norm for Trent deal was to take advantage of Trents low cap hold (we could have even made it lower, if necessary) and allow the Raps to do things like that.

I still don't see how that's possible being under the cap and not having the MLE.

you dont get the full mle (4 x 10 mil) when you use cap space, cap space teams get the room mle which is apx 2 year $4per year.

[vulture]

Lowry was a free agent.

I know, but I'm referring more to the trade deadline. Once it was free agency, Masai didn't have as much leverage so he took what he found acceptable.

How do we know he didn't? We still don't know what teams were offering at the deadline.

I already said that we don't know what teams offered at the deadline, but he really had no leverage when he made this deal since Lowry was a FA.

[Los_29]

I know, but I'm referring more to the trade deadline. Once it was free agency, Masai didn't have as much leverage so he took what he found acceptable.

How do we know he didn't? We still don't know what teams were offering at the deadline.

I already said that we don't know what teams offered at the deadline, but he really had no leverage when he made this deal since Lowry was a FA.

We did fine. If the reports were true, teams were lowballing us at the deadline with THJ offers and cap filler from the Sixers.

Not to mention Precious just turned 22 years old. lol. Let's look at this deal in 2-3 years. And if Precious doesn't pan out then who really cares. We didn't get much for a 36 year old player averaging 12/7. It's not like we are the first team in history to lose a player for nothing. I don't think the Heat are kicking themselves for losing Wade to the Bulls.

[tecumseh18]

At no point did I assert that. Obviously, by letting Kyle walk, we don't get Achuiwa.

Holmes ended signing back with the Kings for <11 mill/yr. As for Birch, the assumption before free agency opened was that we could use our cap space on a bigger name and bring Khem back for the room exception (~$4.8 mill). Or generate more cap space and use it to sign both Holmes AND Birch. The whole point of the Norm for Trent deal was to take advantage of Trents low cap hold (we could have even made it lower, if necessary) and allow the Raps to do things like that.

I still don't see how that's possible being under the cap and not having the MLE.

you dont get the full mle (4 x 10 mil) when you use cap space, cap space teams get the room mle which is apx 2 year $4per year.

Yes, I was talking about the room exception (4.8 mill or so in 2021) that was around the number we all expected Birch to sign for. OK, he wanted more. But if Raps simply let Lowry walk, then we could easily have generated 19 mill in cap space needed to sign both him and Holmes. Once again, that was considered to be the huge benefit of the Norm for Trent swap. By waiving Trent's RFA rights (but not his Bird rights) we could have reduced his cap hold to < 2 mill, IIRC.