2021-22 English Premier League Discussion Thread

[wco81]

But is Ronaldo going to press?

Even the younger players on United are stars now so they may not wanted to do that hard work.

PSG dominates, competes in the UCL every season, even if their expensive front line doesn't like to work. So maybe Pochettino would be happier at a small club with low expectations where the players are more eager to please.

Of course he wouldn't get paid like he is at PSG or would get at United.

[Baphomet]

But is Ronaldo going to press?

Even the younger players on United are stars now so they may not wanted to do that hard work.

PSG dominates, competes in the UCL every season, even if their expensive front line doesn't like to work. So maybe Pochettino would be happier at a small club with low expectations where the players are more eager to please.

Of course he wouldn't get paid like he is at PSG or would get at United.

Another factor to consider is that Pochettino is highly respected in England. In France, the fans and media do not seem to have warmed to him. Even something as surface level as the perception of a manager can have a big impact on player motivation. I'm not suggesting that he should go to a small club and win that way, but I do think he's better suited to a longer term project rather than one where he is expected to win the biggest prize immediately. It takes time for him to develop a culture and mould a team into his stylistic image, and I don't think he has the pedigree of a Pep or Klopp to buy the time to implement his ideas there. I believe he would have a much longer tether at United, the fans are ready to buy into a project, so long as there are signs of progress.

At PSG, managers are always on thin ice because the stakes are so high that only way to truly succeed as manager is to win the Champions League, which they have yet to achieve, and with the quality of players they have they're expected to win immediately. Managers, especially ideologues like Poch, thrive best in an environment where they're wanted and supported. Consider the European success Unai Emery and Thomas Tuchel have had since leaving PSG.

You raise a valid point about United's current players buying into his philosophy, and while there would probably be friction with some players, I do think that the squad on the whole would be more willing to put in the work.

[HIF]

Man United appoint Ralf Rangnick as interim coach, with the goal of taking over as a permanent consultant at the club in the summer when they look for their next permanent manager.

Thoughts? I feel like Man United have a lot of structural problems at the moment, even beyond the squad and coaches, so this could prove to be a pretty savvy move. However, I feel like the German posters here probably know his coaching style better than me, but as far as I understand, he's one of the progenitors of the gegenpress. Could signal a shift in playing philosophy at Man United.

tbh I don't see the point in firing Olé if they don't have a permanent manager ready to move in.

If he does pretty well then they have questions /problems again at the end of the season.

[HIF]

Poch should have gone to Norwich. More his type of team.

[wco81]

But is Ronaldo going to press?

Even the younger players on United are stars now so they may not wanted to do that hard work.

PSG dominates, competes in the UCL every season, even if their expensive front line doesn't like to work. So maybe Pochettino would be happier at a small club with low expectations where the players are more eager to please.

Of course he wouldn't get paid like he is at PSG or would get at United.

Another factor to consider is that Pochettino is highly respected in England. In France, the fans and media do not seem to have warmed to him. Even something as surface level as the perception of a manager can have a big impact on player motivation. I'm not suggesting that he should go to a small club and win that way, but I do think he's better suited to a longer term project rather than one where he is expected to win the biggest prize immediately. It takes time for him to develop a culture and mould a team into his stylistic image, and I don't think he has the pedigree of a Pep or Klopp to buy the time to implement his ideas there. I believe he would have a much longer tether at United, the fans are ready to buy into a project, so long as there are signs of progress.

At PSG, managers are always on thin ice because the stakes are so high that only way to truly succeed as manager is to win the Champions League, which they have yet to achieve, and with the quality of players they have they're expected to win immediately. Managers, especially ideologues like Poch, thrive best in an environment where they're wanted and supported. Consider the European success Unai Emery and Thomas Tuchel have had since leaving PSG.

You raise a valid point about United's current players buying into his philosophy, and while there would probably be friction with some players, I do think that the squad on the whole would be more willing to put in the work.

Interesting comments.

I still remember the All or Nothing show on Tottenham's season. The first couple of episodes show Poch and then the rest when Mourinho came in.

He was gaslighting everyone, including stars like Kane. But then he'd talk differently to his assistants in Portuguese when the players weren't around -- but they subtitled those conversations on the show!

It's clear that some leagues like the NBA are clearly driven by players. If a star player doesn't like a coach, he can get him fired or traded.

Big stars in futbol have even more clout. And the turnover in managers is very high in the big leagues. Maybe the best chance is of a manager has the power to buy players and after a couple of transfer windows, he can integrate younger players who are more hungry and willing to buy into a manager's program.

[SgtPepper]

If Pocch has continental ambitions moving for Utd now would probably damage his stature. I think he'll be interested in la liga at some point so that would be in his considerations. Same goes for Rodgers. PSG also can't afford to be trigger happy with the manager currently as they traditionally have been in view of players like Mbappe and Di Maria potentially leaving over the next 2 windows.

Player power is important, but an underdiscussed aspect of managerial tenure is about club board culture and whether it's coherent and stable. In what way is Utd's board more reliable to a foreign manager like Poch than PSG? PSG has a lot more money which is sugar daddy driven, has a lot of leverage in domestic and Euro media, has more stable execs (hi Woodward!), has much more relaxed league constraints. Even within the PL I think foreign managers would find Leicester and Tottenham more coherently structured. A large factor in this trend of declining clubs hiring former players is driven by the club board's preference of avoiding costs & fights with branded and powerful coaches in public.

[HIF]

Whilst some of what you say is true. Leicester and Tottenham will not be seen as a bigger pull than Man U for the foreseeable future. Manchester are simply one of the BIG 3 clubs that any manager would like to coach during their careers. I don't think Leicester or Tottenham are on anyone's list of must coach team.

[SgtPepper]

^Based on what? Man Utd has more often been a Europa league level team over the last 7 years than a CL contender. Conte, a continental coach, went to Tottenham this summer. Utd is like Arsenal - they rank elite in annual cash flows due to global brand development; on a football level they were a mess till Ole gave some stability and the squad improved progressively. Neither they nor Arsenal have been able to attract established CL level managers over the last few years.

[HIF]

^Based on what? Man Utd has more often been a Europa league level team over the last 7 years than a CL contender. Conte, a continental coach, went to Tottenham this summer. Utd is like Arsenal - they rank elite in annual cash flows due to global brand development; on a football level they were a mess till Ole gave some stability and the squad improved progressively. Neither they nor Arsenal have been able to attract established CL level managers over the last few years.

Based on History, based on Cash, based on shirt sales, based on Brand. Spurs are still a wannabee team, even though they have greatly progressed.

When did Spurs last win the league?
When did spurs last win a trophy?

Anyone would think that they were competing in the CL and challenging for the title this year from what you're saying. However they are struggling in the third level of European competition and sit as close to the relegation zone as they do to the top 3 teams in the prem.

[SgtPepper]

All those merits are things fans and players care about much more than coaches. Conte's an example of a relevant manager on the ground who skipped the Utd experience recently. Utd just signed a manager who doesn't have Euro credentials, unlike the people they were linked with in 2013 because that's the best they can currently do. So why is the overall quality available to them lower? Either the drivers that attract the continentals don't exist for the club now or the market for managers is dry. Reality is probably somewhere between the two, but my main point is Utd's managerial hires show a very different story from what you're talking about. There's no hint that Utd's size and commercial stature has produced managerial optionality since Jose left.

No need for the Tottenham diatribe. I'm not a fan of either club.

[Baphomet]

No need for the Tottenham diatribe. I'm not a fan of either club.

There's nothing as certain as death, taxes, and Leicester fans being weirdly upset about Spurs.

[Baphomet]

Speaking of fans being upset, Everton fans are leaving after 20 minutes of the Merseyside derby, 2-0 down.

Benitez is probably going to get the sack.

Now if you want to talk about big clubs that have done absolutely nothing for years, Everton has to be the poster child. Just spinning their wheels at this point.

[wco81]

Everton is a big club?

Have they gotten a UCL berth in the last decade or two?

[Baphomet]

Everton is a big club?

Have they gotten a UCL berth in the last decade or two?

No they haven't, but that's not the only metric of a big club. History and culture mean a lot and don't disappear after some years of competitive irrelevance. Everton have won 9 league titles, that's the fourth most out of any English club, more than City and Chelsea despite their elite modern status.

[wco81]

When did they last win a title?

What is their payroll or revenues including jersey and merchandise sales compared to other big clubs?

They have a loyal following and being in the EPL all these years, plenty of TV money. But a frequent UCL club is on another level revenues wise and the kind of players they can acquire.

[HIF]

No need for the Tottenham diatribe. I'm not a fan of either club.

There's nothing as certain as death, taxes, and Leicester fans being weirdly upset about Spurs.

Honestly I was just commenting on his post. He ridiculously claimed that Manu have less pulling power than Leicester and Tottenham. Even mentioning Leicester was so laughable I didn't thank any need to counteract it. Leicester have far less pulling power than Spurs, let alone ManU.

I don't think we're upset about spurs, we like to joke about them after Kane used the lions picture and told us they were coming for us only to finish 3rd in a 2 horse race.

[HIF]

Speaking of fans being upset, Everton fans are leaving after 20 minutes of the Merseyside derby, 2-0 down.

Benitez is probably going to get the sack.

Now if you want to talk about big clubs that have done absolutely nothing for years, Everton has to be the poster child. Just spinning their wheels at this point.

and Everton have the same pulling power as Leicester even now.

Only a couple of years ago Rafa was the messiah.

[HIF]

Everton is a big club?

Have they gotten a UCL berth in the last decade or two?

No they haven't, but that's not the only metric of a big club. History and culture mean a lot and don't disappear after some years of competitive irrelevance. Everton have won 9 league titles, that's the fourth most out of any English club, more than City and Chelsea despite their elite modern status.

This is what I was trying to explain earlier. Non Brits don't tend to understand this.

[HIF]

When did they last win a title?

What is their payroll or revenues including jersey and merchandise sales compared to other big clubs?

They have a loyal following and being in the EPL all these years, plenty of TV money. But a frequent UCL club is on another level revenues wise and the kind of players they can acquire.

IMO

Mega Big Club: Manchester United
Big Clubs: Liverpool & Arsenal
"New" big clubs (thanks to money) Chelsea & Man City

then

Spurs
Everton
West Ham
Leicester
Villa
Saints

Historically big clubs who could revive:
Newcastle
Leeds

[wco81]

History and tradition may be big but do people really believe that winning the league 50 years ago is the same as it is now?

NBA has the same debates, whether players from the '60s and '70s can play in the NBA today.

Team sports are now international so rosters are full of international players which wasn't the case long time ago. Athletes are better trained. Long time ago, athletes would have to take second jobs in the offseason rather than train year round.