Shams: Pacers Moving toward Rebuild; Receptive to Trade Talks

Post #61 » by **pacers33granger** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:41 pm

Somehow it seems the team has managed to mishandle both Myles and Domas in different ways (as well as Goga).

Post #62 » by **pacers33granger** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:42 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:I listened to Lowe Post, and he casually mentioned that Indy and Levert went down to the deadline for an extension in discussions before the season and very nearly came to a deal.

I know it's about maintaining an asset and potentially good player. That said, we shouldn't be doing these deals so early. It wouldn't have been terrible, nor is the Brogdon extension, but it hamstrings us.

Post #63 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:45 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:I listened to Lowe Post, and he casually mentioned that Indy and Levert went down to the deadline for an extension in discussions before the season and very nearly came to a deal.

I know it's about maintaining an asset and potentially good player. That said, we shouldn't be doing these deals so early. It wouldn't have been terrible, nor is the Brogdon extension, but it hamstrings us.

Yeah. Asset management and whatnot. It would have hamstrung us, but I imagine it would’ve put us more in the “you all get this one last season, and if it’s not 100%, we’re tearing it all down” kind of mode.

Post #64 » by **pacers33granger** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:50 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:I listened to Lowe Post, and he casually mentioned that Indy and Levert went down to the deadline for an extension in discussions before the season and very nearly came to a deal.

I know it's about maintaining an asset and potentially good player. That said, we shouldn't be doing these deals so early. It wouldn't have been terrible, nor is the Brogdon extension, but it hamstrings us.

Yeah. Asset management and whatnot. It would have hamstrung us, but I imagine it would’ve put us more in the “you all get this one last season, and if it’s not 100%, we’re tearing it all down” kind of mode.

True, though it kind of feels like we've been hedging up against that for awhile now. I don't think LeVert earned an extension at what I'd assume the numbers would be. I don't think Brogdon really did either, but his is closer. So this now makes 3 un-earned (imo) extensions in the past year were on the table when you count Vic's.

Post #65 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:56 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
I know it's about maintaining an asset and potentially good player. That said, we shouldn't be doing these deals so early. It wouldn't have been terrible, nor is the Brogdon extension, but it hamstrings us.

Yeah. Asset management and whatnot. It would have hamstrung us, but I imagine it would’ve put us more in the “you all get this one last season, and if it’s not 100%, we’re tearing it all down” kind of mode.

True, though it kind of feels like we've been hedging up against that for awhile now. I don't think LeVert earned an extension at what I'd assume the numbers would be. I don't think Brogdon really did either, but his is closer. So this now makes 3 un-earned (imo) extensions in the past year were on the table when you count Vic's.

Oh, I think Brogdon’s extension is at a discount rate. Definitely to what he’d get on the open market that year.

Levert, yeah. Players love his game, but it’s so hard to see it work. Oladipo’s was probably earned with 2 all-star/all-nba seasons, though. The injury obviously made it a risk, but I think the offer was definitely earned. I’d say 1 unearned extension offer, 1 discount, and 1 that was earned, but ultimately nullified by the injuries. I would imagine we offered Warren and Turner extensions too. , which both likely would have been fair to discounted rate due to the ,omits in what could be offered.

Post #66 » by **pacers33granger** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:12 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

Yeah. Asset management and whatnot. It would have hamstrung us, but I imagine it would’ve put us more in the “you all get this one last season, and if it’s not 100%, we’re tearing it all down” kind of mode.

True, though it kind of feels like we've been hedging up against that for awhile now. I don't think LeVert earned an extension at what I'd assume the numbers would be. I don't think Brogdon really did either, but his is closer. So this now makes 3 un-earned (imo) extensions in the past year were on the table when you count Vic's.

Oh, I think Brogdon’s extension is at a discount rate. Definitely to what he’d get on the open market that year.

Levert, yeah. Players love his game, but it’s so hard to see it work. Oladipo’s was probably earned with 2 all-star/all-nba seasons, though. The injury obviously made it a risk, but I think the offer was definitely earned. I’d say 1 unearned extension offer, 1 discount, and 1 that was earned, but ultimately nullified by the injuries. I would imagine we offered Warren and Turner extensions too. , which both likely would have been fair to discounted rate due to the ,omits in what could be offered.

I'm not specifically down or anything on Brogdon's deal numbers-wise and agree he would likely get more on the open market. I still don't think he earned it though. He was not a good leader last year. His numbers were fine, but not great. And he still has injury concerns.

Post #67 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:26 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
True, though it kind of feels like we've been hedging up against that for awhile now. I don't think LeVert earned an extension at what I'd assume the numbers would be. I don't think Brogdon really did either, but his is closer. So this now makes 3 un-earned (imo) extensions in the past year were on the table when you count Vic's.

Oh, I think Brogdon’s extension is at a discount rate. Definitely to what he’d get on the open market that year.

Levert, yeah. Players love his game, but it’s so hard to see it work. Oladipo’s was probably earned with 2 all-star/all-nba seasons, though. The injury obviously made it a risk, but I think the offer was definitely earned. I’d say 1 unearned extension offer, 1 discount, and 1 that was earned, but ultimately nullified by the injuries. I would imagine we offered Warren and Turner extensions too. , which both likely would have been fair to discounted rate due to the ,omits in what could be offered.

I'm not specifically down or anything on Brogdon's deal numbers-wise and agree he would likely get more on the open market. I still don't think he earned it though. He was not a good leader last year. His numbers were fine, but not great. And he still has injury concerns.

Oh. I guess I don’t understand what you mean. He’s worth it, but he didn’t earn it? I see worth it and earned it as largely the same thing. To earn something means you’re worth something.

Topofthekey · Post #68 » by **Topofthekey** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:24 pm

Simon: greenlights a rebuild

Pacers: goes on a 3 game winning streak

Simon: "Rebuild completed"

Maybe

Post #69 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:13 pm

Read on Twitter

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Topofthekey · Post #70 » by **Topofthekey** » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:19 pm

The team just needs to draft better

Reggie was drafted at 11, Granger at 17. Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest at 16 and 17 (though Pacers didn't draft them)

They don't always need to tank for a top pick to draft a good player. They just need to not botch the pick they have

Imagine Anunoby instead of Leaf. Imagine them drafting Quickley instead of gifting the pick to Bucks

Post #71 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:08 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=21

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Post #72 » by **pacers33granger** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:28 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
pacers33granger wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

Oh, I think Brogdon’s extension is at a discount rate. Definitely to what he’d get on the open market that year.

Levert, yeah. Players love his game, but it’s so hard to see it work. Oladipo’s was probably earned with 2 all-star/all-nba seasons, though. The injury obviously made it a risk, but I think the offer was definitely earned. I’d say 1 unearned extension offer, 1 discount, and 1 that was earned, but ultimately nullified by the injuries. I would imagine we offered Warren and Turner extensions too. , which both likely would have been fair to discounted rate due to the ,omits in what could be offered.

I'm not specifically down or anything on Brogdon's deal numbers-wise and agree he would likely get more on the open market. I still don't think he earned it though. He was not a good leader last year. His numbers were fine, but not great. And he still has injury concerns.

Oh. I guess I don’t understand what you mean. He’s worth it, but he didn’t earn it? I see worth it and earned it as largely the same thing. To earn something means you’re worth something.

I think he gets slightly more from someone if he's potentially able to be pried free. Doesn't make him actually worth it in a production sense. No different that MPJ not having earned his extension, but likely getting more than that in free agency had he stayed healthy.

Topofthekey · Post #73 » by **Topofthekey** » Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:38 am

That's kind of what the NBA is like though

You'll have to overpay in order to retain/obtain talent

That's why rookies contracts and max contracts (when given to elite players) are so important, because the players on those contracts provide more production than what they are paid, thereby making up for overpaying the 2nd or 3rd best players on the team

Bucks is one example

Jrue and Middleton aren't worth $30m and $36m respectively

But it's fine because Giannis makes up for it, even if he's paid $40m, because his production and impact far exceeds that number and even makes up for Jrue and Middleton's contract

Post #74 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:07 am

Several tweets in a row here….sorry.

?s=21

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Topofthekey · Post #75 » by **Topofthekey** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:13 am

This feels like someone trying to manufacture drama

Of course an NBA team is always looking to add a "star", it would be negligence on their part if they didn't

Warriors signing Kevin Durant wasn't a slight at Curry, it was simply what any other team would have done in their situation

Pacers saying they are trying to acquire/manufacture/obtain a star doesn't have to be a slight at Sabonis, or any other Pacer player

It doesn't even matter if the implication behind KP's quote was that Sabonis wasn't a "real star" - what's the definition of a star anyway?

Wizop · Post #76 » by **Wizop** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 am

I'm willing to wait to see if Warren is contributing later in the year. If not, the assumption that his next contract will take a big jump could be wrong. but if he "stars", we'll be happy to pay him.

I'm a little surprised we haven't seen what the two ways can do with McConnell out. I guess they haven't shown enough in the G League. I really like TJ but you can make the case that he was part of the late game problems.

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Post #77 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:28 am

Topofthekey wrote:This feels like someone trying to manufacture drama

Meh. Right or wrong, or merely misspoken, it was a newsworthy thing. It's good it was reported and asked, and now it should pretty much be closed.

Of course an NBA team is always looking to add a "star", it would be negligence on their part if they didn't

Totally. But that wasn't this. The newsworthy thing was that Pritchard specifically said we had no star, which means that he openly spoke about Sabonis not being one. Which might come across as insulting to Sabonis. It was worthy of reporters asking questions. And if it's just Pritchard mis-speaking, it's good that's on the record now. But it also speaks to the views the front office has on their players, and what they hope to acquire. Does this mean that we'd do anything, including overpay, for a star? Maybe?

Warriors signing Kevin Durant wasn't a slight at Curry, it was simply what any other team would have done in their situation

Sure, but that isn't this. They added Durant. They didn't say that Curry/Klay/Dray weren't stars. They merely had the opportunity to add a 4th one.

Pacers saying they are trying to acquire/manufacture/obtain a star doesn't have to be a slight at Sabonis, or any other Pacer player

It could be a slight to Sabonis if he thinks that he is a star. And as young as he is, and being a 2 time all star, it wouldn't be shocking for him to think he is one, even if he might think he's a lower level one. At the least, the fact it took Sabonis aback, and seemed like news as to how the team thought of him, seems to imply a communication issue. By Pritchard speaking up and clearing things up, we can at least move one from it before it becomes a thing.

It doesn't even matter if the implication behind KP's quote was that Sabonis wasn't a "real star" -

It does matter! If nothing else, judging by Sabonis' response in the press conference, he was taken aback by it and it seemed indicative of a possible communication issue between roster and front office.

what's the definition of a star anyway?

Sure! This is a good question, indeed.

Post #78 » by **Scoot McGroot** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:17 pm

From Shams Charania’s Inside Pass today:

Indiana Pacers
Pacers two-time All-Star Domantas Sabonis is expected to generate strong interest and is among the attractive players who could be available in a trade. The Suns and Kings have shown interest in recent years, sources said.
A slew of teams will pursue Pacers center Myles Turner, but it will come down to the Pacers’ price tag on both he and Sabonis being met. It’s believed to be more likely just one is moved. The Athletic reported last week that the Pacers are beginning to move toward a rebuild and are receptive to trade talks to potentially move guard Caris LeVert and either Sabonis or Turner.

Also mentioned Indy as a team with reported interest in Ben Simmons.

Wizop · Post #79 » by **Wizop** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:41 pm

I'm ready to shop Justin and any other player who refuses to get vaccinated.

Tom White · Post #80 » by **Tom White** » Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:45 pm

Wizop wrote:I'm ready to shop Justin and any other player who refuses to get vaccinated.

Absolutely! If he wants to be stupid and risk his health, as well as putting other people at risk, let him do it elsewhere.

I remember way back when I was in elementary school everyone had to get vaccinated for measles and such in order to enroll. It was not a big deal to just get the shot, and it was an important step to help eradicate disease. Why is it a big deal now?