Why is Steph Curry labeled as "changing the game" when he hasnt forced the league to change or alter anything?

[HardenandWilt]

This is tricky for me because i love steph curry.. all-time great shooter, but i cant get over the fact that it is of my opinion that i believe it was Harden along with Daryl Morey and at the time sam hinkie that had more impact on how the game is played today and not steph curry or the warriors

Too me Harden in 15-20 years from now will be seen as a game changer. A player so dominant that he literally forced the nba to change or alter what fouls really were. Keep in mind this year wasnt the first attempted nerf of harden. During the 2016-2017 season coaches complained about hardens 3 point foul rate.. and in the offseason the league addressed that, then during harden's 2018 mvp season coaches complained about harden traveling( which we found out wasnt really traveling at all). And that the stepback three revolutionized basketball in a way that most kids in aau and high schools in and across the pond are emulating it and adding it to their kit

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-kids-want-to-be-james-harden-11565100311

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But back to my point, I'd argue james harden and too a lesser extent dayrl morey changed the game by emphasizing the 3 point shot, and harden in particular on how the game is currently officiated. Its easy to sit here and say that we like the outcome of the new rules this year while looking past the fact that jordan, wade, and kobe benefited heavily from how the game used to be called. I believe it was zack zarba that stated in his entire career of calling a game that james harden is the most difficult player to officiate. And that same statement has been echoed by other refs who called and who are currently calling the game

when you are a game-changer, you basically change the game for good or for bad. Whether its barkley and the backdown 3 second rule, shaq and dwight with the intentional foul rule ( hack a shaq) at the end of a game, and now harden with unnatural shooting motion rule( which is also heavily disguised as bringing back hand-checking)

Too me personally Steph Curry didnt change the game, or hasnt yet. Players are still chucking what seems like 40 threes a night. Curry changing the game would be adam silver moving or stretching the 3 point line out further back to prevent," such stupid, moronic basketball as shaq and barkley would say on tnt"

But yea this isnt a knock on stephen curry or his fans, but i just dont believe he changed the game

These highlights happened in 2013, when mark jackson was coaching the warriors, and i believe hardens first year in houston. The rockets set a then nba record 23 3's againist the young warriors. I cant find the article now but i believe it was zach lowe or bill simmons( back when espn was still good) who wrote prior to this game the rockets were 1st is 3-pointers made and attempted and the warriors under mark jackson were 13th, after this game. The warriors trailed only the rockets for the remainder of that year

This was 8 years ago

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[No-more-rings]

It’s just a false narrative. As i’ve said before, the shift to a 3 point oriented league was well underway before Curry even won his 1st mvp.

[1993Playoffs]

He didn’t change the league.

[picko]

There are positive and negative game changers. Curry is an example of the former and Harden an example of the latter.

There is no reason to believe that the NBA would change the rules to contain the effectiveness of someone who made the game better.

Furthermore, Curry and the Warriors get the credit for the 3 point revolution because they enjoyed ultimate success pursuing that strategy. They proved it could work. That Harden and Morey dabbled in those strategies a little earlier is nothing more than an historical footnote.

[McBubbles]

1. It's about changing the meta of the game, not just the rulebook. Curry did the former.

And to those that say "The league was already trending towards 3's, Curry didn't do nothin >:(" the jump in league average 3PA per game from 2016 to 2017 (2.9 a game)
was the biggest single year increase in 3PA since the 3 point line was shortened in 1995. That's not a coincidence, that's what the Warriors 2016 Season did.

2. In 15-20 years James Harden will be remembered as a foul baiting choker with excellence handles and a popularizer of the stepback. No one with zero championships goes gets remembered as dominant (and sometimes even those with championships don't).

[penbeast0]

Curry is the face of the "modern offense" defined as spamming 3's as the bread and butter of the game and everything else playing off that. He is also one of the rare guys that still needs to be guarded 10-15 feet beyond the 3 point line though there are a couple of others who hit that shot enough to be dangerous.

Is he the sole reason the NBA has changed its offensive strategy more dramatically than any equivalent period since 57-62? OF course not. But he's a key part of getting the idea of that being a hypereffective offense accepted and popularized.

[fjd0913]

It's not accurate to attribute any change solely to one player. League-wide three point attempt rates had gradually been increasing prior to both Curry's and Harden's breakthroughs. The seeds were first sown in 2005 with the new rules and the S7OL Suns, but it was Curry and the Warriors who managed to have real success with such a strategy and thus served as the final catalyst for a real paradigm shift.

[Doctor MJ]

This is tricky for me because i love steph curry.. all-time great shooter, but i cant get over the fact that it is of my opinion that i believe it was Harden along with Daryl Morey and at the time sam hinkie that had more impact on how the game is played today and not steph curry or the warriors

Too me Harden in 15-20 years from now will be seen as a game changer. A player so dominant that he literally forced the nba to change or alter what fouls really were.

They didn't have to change the rules because of Harden being unstoppable at basketball, they did it because refereeing norms had become a laughingstock compared to how basketball is played normally. Not remotely the same category as actually adding rules because a guy is unstoppable if there aren't rules preventing him from using his basketball abilities.

I'll add that Curry certainly did change the game because he a) further accelerated the move toward 3-point strategy in the current game, and b) almost certainly became the greatest influence on upcoming generations of kids who will eventually be in the NBA.

[HardenandWilt]

This is tricky for me because i love steph curry.. all-time great shooter, but i cant get over the fact that it is of my opinion that i believe it was Harden along with Daryl Morey and at the time sam hinkie that had more impact on how the game is played today and not steph curry or the warriors

Too me Harden in 15-20 years from now will be seen as a game changer. A player so dominant that he literally forced the nba to change or alter what fouls really were.

They didn't have to change the rules because of Harden being unstoppable at basketball, they did it because refereeing norms had become a laughingstock compared to how basketball is played normally. Not remotely the same category as actually adding rules because a guy is unstoppable if there aren't rules preventing him from using his basketball abilities.

I'll add that Curry certainly did change the game because he a) further accelerated the move toward 3-point strategy in the current game, and b) almost certainly became the greatest influence on upcoming generations of kids who will eventually be in the NBA.

The warriors were not shooting many threes until the rockets started the trend( they were literally shooting an unheard of 35 threes a night, when most teams were still shooting under 22 per game) That’s my point, and I have evidence on my side

[HardenandWilt]

Curry is the face of the "modern offense" defined as spamming 3's as the bread and butter of the game and everything else playing off that. He is also one of the rare guys that still needs to be guarded 10-15 feet beyond the 3 point line though there are a couple of others who hit that shot enough to be dangerous.

Is he the sole reason the NBA has changed its offensive strategy more dramatically than any equivalent period since 57-62? OF course not. But he's a key part of getting the idea of that being a hypereffective offense accepted and popularized.

Define “modern offense”

The Utah jazz, Atlanta hawks and Dallas mavs all play morey ball. In fact I can’t think of a single player in the league besides maybe his brother Seth that actually goes out of their way to emulate steph currys game. Like I said, great player. But should not get credit for “changing the game” as the rockets were the actual pioneers of this form of play

[HardenandWilt]

1. It's about changing the meta of the game, not just the rulebook. Curry did the former.

And to those that say "The league was already trending towards 3's, Curry didn't do nothin >:(" the jump in league average 3PA per game from 2016 to 2017 (2.9 a game)
was the biggest single year increase in 3PA since the 3 point line was shortened in 1995. That's not a coincidence, that's what the Warriors 2016 Season did.

2. In 15-20 years James Harden will be remembered as a foul baiting choker with excellence handles and a popularizer of the stepback. No one with zero championships goes gets remembered as dominant (and sometimes even those with championships don't).

Harden will likely finish his career 2nd in total 3’s made while simultaneously seen as the most explosive volume scorer since Oscar/west. Does steph even have 20k career points at this point. Like I said in my opening statement. I respect him as an all time great shooter( and I will give him slight credit along with Damian lillard for the logo three shooting craze). But outside of that I’m struggling to see where his style of play was so transcendent it spawned others in the league.

Like we literally saw markelle fultz go number 1 because gms thought he was next harden. Luka and trae have gone on record stating that they tried to take bits and pieces from hardens game. I believe trae and harden even worked out together in the offseason a few times. I don’t see any players in the league trying to play like the warriors. Utah, phoenix the other two best teams in league use morey ball.

Also I’m seeing more and more of this from younger players in the league.

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[Doctor MJ]

The warriors were not shooting many threes until the rockets started the trend( they were literally shooting an unheard of 35 threes a night, when most teams were still shooting under 22 per game) That’s my point, and I have evidence on my side

Okay, let's focus on that.

Biggest thing we have to start from understanding: It's not clear cut what year is the most significant in terms of 3-point innovation. There are a number of candidates, and we can list them out if folks want to.

What I will say is that it is clear who the most important coach in this paradigm shift is: Mike D'Antoni. That's actually a quite reasonable thing to bring up when questioning who the most important person was in all this, because I think you can make a great case that D'Antoni is indeed that person, rather than Curry.

However, if we're going to focus on one D'Antoni year, that year is quite clearly '04-05. By the time D'Antoni arrived in Houston, he'd already been hired several times as the "shoots lots of 3's" guy, so it really would be quite noteworthy if the man changed the game more with his 5th stint as an NBA coach. '04-05 is the year he went from being an unknown to being seen as a genius revolutionary.

In terms of why it's generally seen as being Curry-led among the players:

1. Typically, copycatting happens once a team becomes champion. It doesn't happen dramatically with all champions, but when a new, but obvious strategy leads to a championship, and THEN leads to the team being even better the next year, we should expect a dramatic jump.

The Warriors won the title in '14-15, and then came out of the gates far stronger in '15-16. From 2015-16 to 2016-17 we see a 12% jump in league 3PA, which is the largest jump we've scene since the year in the '90s when they moved the 3-point line in. The causality seems pretty clear.

Of course, the irony: The only reason we see a jump that big, is because the Rockets hired Mike D'Antoni that off-season, and the team then proceeded to shoot way more 3's than everyone else. So what exactly is causing what?

What's really undeniable though is that Curry & Harden came into the league at the same time, and Curry just broke the 3-point record before Harden for reasons that have a lot to do with him leading the league in shooting 3's five times before Harden ever did. Curry, in other words, can be said to have changed Harden's game considerably more than the other way around.

Let's just compare where each guy was coming from in college:

Harden took 28.5% of his shooting attempts from 3.
Curry took 42.1%.

Curry's a guy who grew up practicing to be primarily a 3-point shooter trained by his NBA 3-point shooting father.
Harden's a guy whose 3-point shooting grew over his career specifically because he was following a wave that was already swelling.

[McBubbles]

Curry is the face of the "modern offense" defined as spamming 3's as the bread and butter of the game and everything else playing off that. He is also one of the rare guys that still needs to be guarded 10-15 feet beyond the 3 point line though there are a couple of others who hit that shot enough to be dangerous.

Is he the sole reason the NBA has changed its offensive strategy more dramatically than any equivalent period since 57-62? OF course not. But he's a key part of getting the idea of that being a hypereffective offense accepted and popularized.

Define “modern offense”

The Utah jazz, Atlanta hawks and Dallas mavs all play morey ball. In fact I can’t think of a single player in the league besides maybe his brother Seth that actually goes out of their way to emulate steph currys game. Like I said, great player. But should not get credit for “changing the game” as the rockets were the actual pioneers of this form of play

Has if not occurred to you that your extreme Harden bias is colouring your judgement? Why the **** would the Rockets, the team that never won a championship, let alone 3 championships in 5 years have been more responsible for the proliferation of the 3 than the Warriors? It's a matter of basketball historicity that teams copy championship teams, not won 60+ games once and went to two WCF and zero Finals teams. Also ignoring the fact that the ATG Rockets offence got shut down in the post season.

And no, teams aren't playing Morey Ball, they're just taking a **** tonne of 3's. That's like saying a team that passes a lot is playing Spurs Ball. It's not a "style" that's being imitated, it's just an aspect of basketball being utilised.

And about people working out with Harden or people saying they take some moves from his game; who cares? Young players do that with multiple players.

[falcolombardi]

rockets probably popularized watching defenses and iso hunting bigs more than they did 3 point shooting themselves (where they definitely were at the top of the Curve tho)

[HardenandWilt]

The warriors were not shooting many threes until the rockets started the trend( they were literally shooting an unheard of 35 threes a night, when most teams were still shooting under 22 per game) That’s my point, and I have evidence on my side

Okay, let's focus on that.

Biggest thing we have to start from understanding: It's not clear cut what year is the most significant in terms of 3-point innovation. There are a number of candidates, and we can list them out if folks want to.

What I will say is that it is clear who the most important coach in this paradigm shift is: Mike D'Antoni. That's actually a quite reasonable thing to bring up when questioning who the most important person was in all this, because I think you can make a great case that D'Antoni is indeed that person, rather than Curry.

However, if we're going to focus on one D'Antoni year, that year is quite clearly '04-05. By the time D'Antoni arrived in Houston, he'd already been hired several times as the "shoots lots of 3's" guy, so it really would be quite noteworthy if the man changed the game more with his 5th stint as an NBA coach. '04-05 is the year he went from being an unknown to being seen as a genius revolutionary.

In terms of why it's generally seen as being Curry-led among the players:

1. Typically, copycatting happens once a team becomes champion. It doesn't happen dramatically with all champions, but when a new, but obvious strategy leads to a championship, and THEN leads to the team being even better the next year, we should expect a dramatic jump.

The Warriors won the title in '14-15, and then came out of the gates far stronger in '15-16. From 2015-16 to 2016-17 we see a 12% jump in league 3PA, which is the largest jump we've scene since the year in the '90s when they moved the 3-point line in. The causality seems pretty clear.


Of course, the irony: The only reason we see a jump that big, is because the Rockets hired Mike D'Antoni that off-season, and the team then proceeded to shoot way more 3's than everyone else. So what exactly is causing what?

What's really undeniable though is that Curry & Harden came into the league at the same time, and Curry just broke the 3-point record before Harden for reasons that have a lot to do with him leading the league in shooting 3's five times before Harden ever did. Curry, in other words, can be said to have changed Harden's game considerably more than the other way around.

Let's just compare where each guy was coming from in college:

Harden took 28.5% of his shooting attempts from 3.
Curry took 42.1%.

Curry's a guy who grew up practicing to be primarily a 3-point shooter trained by his NBA 3-point shooting father.
Harden's a guy whose 3-point shooting grew over his career specifically because he was following a wave that was already swelling.

shouldnt curry be ahead of harden in 3 point attempts, since harden started his 3 years as a 6th man... i mean curry had an entire 3 yr headstart to accumulate the volume.. and even then harden is still on track to finish top 2 ever

as for teams copycatting the warriors.. I dont see how thats the case at all, its not what im seeing at least from teams around the league. In fact people overlook the fact that the warriors have had generally one of the highest payrolls in the nba during currys prime years. He had a roster with draymond making mid level max, klay on a max, iggy making 16 million coming off the bench and then kd and curry as supermax guys. Not many teams can afford to pay that kind of luxury bill.


As for mike dantoni, people forget many thought the rockets made a bad hire, after mike failed with the lakers and the knicks with kobe and melo prior to joining the rockets. Many thought harden was of a similar mold to those players and that it wouldnt work out.

Not comparing college stats, as its pointless in this debate about the nba. But the stepback 3 is an icionic shot made popular by james harden, just as the eurostep was made popular by ginobili and to a lesser extent dwayne wade

As for winning a championship with that style, that goes back to an owner spending money. Tillman fertita and les alexander have never paid the tax at all during hardens time as a rocket. So harden did way more heavy lifting than curry would have had to

ALSO ONCE AGAIN THE ROCKETS WERE SHOOTING 30 THREES A NIGHT PRETTY MUCH WITH KEVIN MCHALE AS HEAD COACH.

this myth that the rockets style started under mike dantoni is not true at all

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2013.html#all_team_and_opponent

warriors WERE shooting 19.9 threes pre game back in the 2013 season, and the average only got up to 19.9 because after the game the rockets set the record againist them, they finished that season 2nd in 3 point attempts to the rockets for the remainder of that season. Prior to that game they were middle of the pack

the rockets back in 2013 were shooting 28.9.. nearly 30 threes a game.. by far first in the league

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2013.html#all_team_and_opponent

[RCM88x]

Didn't the NBA change the rules with regards to foul calls off-ball in 2017 or 2018? I remember that being a big point of discussion before one season especially with regards to Curry and the GSW offense.

To me Curry proved that you can win a championship with a jump/3pt shooting point guard as your primary player. That had never been done before. Sure he wasn't the first big time scoring point guard in the league and he won't be the last. But he was the first guy to prove that a player like that could win a championship as the primary guy.

[countryboy667]

Yep--he changed it alright. Turned it into a game for chuckers, greatly devaluing the mid-range and inside games that used to make it interesting and amenable to different strategies that would best fit the skills and strengths of the personnel on individual teams. To me, he's basically just made the game simply not worth watching anymore. I used to go to three-four games a year, which cost a lot of money for a guy with a modest income like me. Now I seriously wouldn't walk across the street to see an NBA game if it was free.

How to fix the mess it has become? Move the three point line out four or five feet and totally eliminate the corner three. That way only the truly great shooters would be justifiably rewarded for long-range shooting and all the mediocre chuckers would have to go back to emphasizing high-percentage shots, and fives would no longer be the secondary or even tertiary role players they are in today's game.

But then I'm old--so what do I know?

[AdagioPace]

Draymond and Kerr probably deserve as much credit as Curry.

Warriors' success (as a whole) changed the league. It's up to you to assign the lion's share.

[Heej]

Lol terrible thread. People like OP are the reason why the judicial system looks at stuff by the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. Anyone with half a brain could see how Curry completely shifted basketball zeitgeist ever since his first MVP season. OP the typa dude to look at box scores to determine who the best player on the floor was instead of watching games

[JeffReal]

Why is Steph… etc, you ask?

Because of reasons.