Tank World Order (6.0)

[will]

I have no idea how we are in the lottery beyond this season. We are a 40 win team in a development year. Easy playoff year in 2022/23 and beyond

Barring some unforeseen disaster...the Raps absolutely should not be lottery bound in 2023.

lottery this year is the only possibility for a while.

Get a nice lottery pick this year in 2022, and get going with the parts the Raps already have.

[DelAbbot]

I have no idea how we are in the lottery beyond this season. We are a 40 win team in a development year. Easy playoff year in 2022/23 and beyond

Barring some unforeseen disaster...the Raps absolutely should not be lottery bound in 2023.

lottery this year is the only possibility for a while.

thus the need to seize this opportunity instead of squandering it for a first round exit.

[will]

Barring some unforeseen disaster...the Raps absolutely should not be lottery bound in 2023.

lottery this year is the only possibility for a while.

thus the need to seize this opportunity instead of squandering it for a first round exit.

This sentence should basically be the standard response to the folks who continue to debate tWo. It's like an out of office auto reply

[Madhouse]

Barring some unforeseen disaster...the Raps absolutely should not be lottery bound in 2023.

lottery this year is the only possibility for a while.

thus the need to seize this opportunity instead of squandering it for a first round exit.

The year is 2026. The Raptors have fallen for the 3rd straight season in the EC SF to the defending world champions Pistons who tanked their way to a dynasty and Cade Cunningham, Chet Holmgren and Victor Wenbanyama.

The Raptors are proud to have made the playoffs in every year of the Scottie Barnes era however they are concerned the South Florida native wants to bolt for Hollywood instead, build a superteam and get out of the Eastern Conference due to the Pistons ending his season every year.

[NBA Sheady]

Be tough to do that before he becomes a free agent

You know exactly what I mean.

This is what I'm talking about re: TWO you guys don't have any sort of plan or logic that includes retaining the star the tankers have been screaming about here for 18 years.

I am making the assumption that Barnes will resign long term.

Based on the history of the franchise that is not logical.

We lost Damon, Bosh, VC and Kawhi. There is no logical reason to think Barnes will be any different.

[will]

You know exactly what I mean.

This is what I'm talking about re: TWO you guys don't have any sort of plan or logic that includes retaining the star the tankers have been screaming about here for 18 years.

I am making the assumption that Barnes will resign long term.

Based on the history of the franchise that is not logical.

We lost Damon, Bosh, VC and Kawhi. There is no logical reason to think Barnes will be any different.

It is also a drastic difference now with the Raptors front office situation. It was an absolute nightmare prior to the BC era. BC and Leiweke brought credibility to the Raptors. BC had credibility until he got found out.

Kawhi didn't want to be here to begin with. Got a 'chip with Kawhi though.

[NBA Sheady]

You are forgetting one big criterion in all these:

"We are here to win a championship"

Watch on YouTube

That means we need a core that offers a high enough ceiling to reach that level of competing for championships. Not just a core of "good enough to make playoffs".

Is the current core (Barnes+OG+FVV+PS+PA) enough for competing for championship? I think it's not likely, and another year of asset accumulation through the draft (hence the hope to tank for higher draft slot) will boost that chance a lot.

Right now my entire discussion is based on: how can you tank and retain Barnes?

So far the answers have been: "Organic Growth".

That's it. That's all. Hopium.

Like I said before, we are not tanking forever. Just this season (Barnes wasn't on our Tampa tanking season). If Barnes does leave, it won't be because we tanked in his rookie season.

How do you go from tanking to winning? What is the strategy? What are the steps?

"Organic Growth" are the words of a used car salesman like Colangelo.

[NBA Sheady]

I am making the assumption that Barnes will resign long term.

Based on the history of the franchise that is not logical.

We lost Damon, Bosh, VC and Kawhi. There is no logical reason to think Barnes will be any different.

It is also a drastic difference now with the Raptors front office situation.

I agree it's different. I agree the difference is indeed drastic. It doesn't change the fact that Americans don't want to live in Canada.

[pingpongrac]

lottery this year is the only possibility for a while.

thus the need to seize this opportunity instead of squandering it for a first round exit.

The year is 2026. The Raptors have fallen for the 3rd straight season in the EC SF to the defending world champions Pistons who tanked their way to a dynasty and Cade Cunningham, Chet Holmgren and Victor Wenbanyama.

The Raptors are proud to have made the playoffs in every year of the Scottie Barnes era however they are concerned the South Florida native wants to bolt for Hollywood instead, build a superteam and get out of the Eastern Conference due to the Pistons ending his season every year.

The year is 2024 and the Raptors have been a lottery team for 3 of the last 4 seasons. Siakam was traded for picks (most of which haven't been made yet) then GTJ and FVV left in FA to go to a winning team. OG has now opted out of his last year and left in FA to compete in his prime. But at least we have a core of Barnes, Banton, Achiuwa, the late-lottery 2022 pick and a few more picks on the way.

Why not continue to build off of what we have rather than relying on hitting a homerun on a late lottery pick or the 5-8% chance of moving into the top 4? We already have a potential star in Scottie, one of the best young two-way wings in OG, a tough shot maker in GTJ that has improved defensively while flashing some playmaking potential and a couple young bench players to go along with a couple two-way vets in FVV and Siakam. None of our core 6 or 7 guys are anywhere close to the end of their career or even in their prime years yet. They should all continue to improve in the next few years. Is a player we pick in the 10-14 range going to be that much of a difference maker compared to someone in the 15-18 range to justify throwing away a season and potential playoff experience?

[PhilBlackson]

Based on the history of the franchise that is not logical.

We lost Damon, Bosh, VC and Kawhi. There is no logical reason to think Barnes will be any different.

It is also a drastic difference now with the Raptors front office situation.

I agree it's different. I agree the difference is indeed drastic. It doesn't change the fact that Americans don't want to live in Canada.

I don't understand what your gripe is about...

It's been repeated over & over & over that NO ONE is saying to tank in perpetuity so can we please stop talking/acting like that's the case?! Scottie isn't going to leave because the Raps preferred to stay out of the Play In during his rookie season lol in order to improve their odds of giving him a star running mate for the next near decade...

Of course if anything that would only help to retain him, believing he has another guy that can help him get over the top and that management will know what to do with the remainder of the roster and then turn some of those other pieces into a 3rd star. That's the hope NOT to tank forever so please some of you guys are whining over and over about things not even being said.

Everyone acknowledges best case scenario be in the back end of the lottery with a good chance of being the 7/8th seed (it's just not preferred). If you have a better plan, spit out and please stop making like anyone is proposing we lose for years on end because it's simply not true.

[Los_29]

Based on the history of the franchise that is not logical.

We lost Damon, Bosh, VC and Kawhi. There is no logical reason to think Barnes will be any different.

It is also a drastic difference now with the Raptors front office situation.

I agree it's different. I agree the difference is indeed drastic. It doesn't change the fact that Americans don't want to live in Canada.

We’ve actually had a lot of success signing our guys. VC signed a 6 year deal here and only left because of terrible management. I also recall Bosh signing a 4 year deal here and only leaving to ring chase with one of the greatest players of all-time. Lowry re-signed multiple times, Demar re-signed multiple times.

Management and winning are key. T-Mac would’ve re-signed here if the franchise wasn’t so dysfunctional.

People don’t give Toronto enough credit. It’s easily one of the best cities to play in in the NBA.

[NBA Sheady]

It is also a drastic difference now with the Raptors front office situation.

I agree it's different. I agree the difference is indeed drastic. It doesn't change the fact that Americans don't want to live in Canada.

I don't understand what your gripe is about...

It's been repeated over & over & over that NO ONE is saying to tank in perpetuity so can we please stop talking/acting like that's the case?!.

Show me where I've said anything to indicate I think that is the case.

I'm saying you can't go from tanking to winning. If you could, there would be more than a few odd examples in the entirety of NBA history.

Tell me how you go from tanking to winning the very next season. What are the steps? What is the plan?

[NBA Sheady]

It is also a drastic difference now with the Raptors front office situation.

I agree it's different. I agree the difference is indeed drastic. It doesn't change the fact that Americans don't want to live in Canada.

We’ve actually had a lot of success signing our guys. VC signed a 6 year deal here and only left because of terrible management. I also recall Bosh signing a 4 year deal here and only leaving to ring chase with one of the greatest players of all-time. Lowry re-signed multiple times, Demar re-signed multiple times.

Management and winning are key. T-Mac would’ve re-signed here if the franchise wasn’t so dysfunctional.

People don’t give Toronto enough credit. It’s easily one of the best cities to play in in the NBA.

I don't consider losing every major talent we've ever had to be a success.

[Los_29]

I agree it's different. I agree the difference is indeed drastic. It doesn't change the fact that Americans don't want to live in Canada.

We’ve actually had a lot of success signing our guys. VC signed a 6 year deal here and only left because of terrible management. I also recall Bosh signing a 4 year deal here and only leaving to ring chase with one of the greatest players of all-time. Lowry re-signed multiple times, Demar re-signed multiple times.

Management and winning are key. T-Mac would’ve re-signed here if the franchise wasn’t so dysfunctional.

People don’t give Toronto enough credit. It’s easily one of the best cities to play in in the NBA.

I don't consider losing every major talent we've ever had to be a success.

But we didn’t lose any of them because of the city or the country. We lost them because of terrible management OR they were traded.

We were a very dysfunctional franchise. This is well documented. The idea that players don’t want to play here is just simply not true which is why we’ve had zero problems re-signing players the past 10 years. Only exception was Kawhi who always seen as a rental and wanted to play in ONE and only one city and that was LA, his hometown.

[NBA Sheady]

We’ve actually had a lot of success signing our guys. VC signed a 6 year deal here and only left because of terrible management. I also recall Bosh signing a 4 year deal here and only leaving to ring chase with one of the greatest players of all-time. Lowry re-signed multiple times, Demar re-signed multiple times.

Management and winning are key. T-Mac would’ve re-signed here if the franchise wasn’t so dysfunctional.

People don’t give Toronto enough credit. It’s easily one of the best cities to play in in the NBA.

I don't consider losing every major talent we've ever had to be a success.

But we didn’t lose any of them because of the city or the country. We lost them because of terrible management OR they were traded.

We were a very dysfunctional franchise. This is well documented. The idea that players don’t want to play here is just simply not true which is why we’ve had zero problems re-signing players the past 10 years. Only exception was Kawhi who always seen as a rental and wanted to play in ONE and only one city and that was LA, his hometown.

If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents.

Things are definitely better though. I think we at least have a slight chance of retaining Scottie.

[PhilBlackson]

I agree it's different. I agree the difference is indeed drastic. It doesn't change the fact that Americans don't want to live in Canada.

I don't understand what your gripe is about...

It's been repeated over & over & over that NO ONE is saying to tank in perpetuity so can we please stop talking/acting like that's the case?!.

Show me where I've said anything to indicate I think that is the case.

I'm saying you can't go from tanking to winning. If you could, there would be more than a few odd examples in the entirety of NBA history.

Tell me how you go from tanking to winning the very next season. What are the steps? What is the plan?

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

[Madhouse]

I don't consider losing every major talent we've ever had to be a success.

But we didn’t lose any of them because of the city or the country. We lost them because of terrible management OR they were traded.

We were a very dysfunctional franchise. This is well documented. The idea that players don’t want to play here is just simply not true which is why we’ve had zero problems re-signing players the past 10 years. Only exception was Kawhi who always seen as a rental and wanted to play in ONE and only one city and that was LA, his hometown.

If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents.

Things are definitely better though. I think we at least have a slight chance of retaining Scottie.

thats 8 years down the road anyway

[Los_29]

I don't consider losing every major talent we've ever had to be a success.

But we didn’t lose any of them because of the city or the country. We lost them because of terrible management OR they were traded.

We were a very dysfunctional franchise. This is well documented. The idea that players don’t want to play here is just simply not true which is why we’ve had zero problems re-signing players the past 10 years. Only exception was Kawhi who always seen as a rental and wanted to play in ONE and only one city and that was LA, his hometown.

If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents.

Things are definitely better though. I think we at least have a slight chance of retaining Scottie.

You said players don't want to live in Canada. That clearly hasn't been the case the past decade as we've been able to re-sign all of our key players. Obviously the one exception is Kawhi who was seen as a rental from day 1 and notified the Spurs that he only wanted to play in LA.

And clearly we have an excellent chance of re-signing Scottie given how things have gone the past decade. Not even worried about that. Winning is important though, if we spend a couple years in the lottery then I wouldn't be that confident.

"If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents."

What?

Like I said earlier, winning is critically important. Having cap space is also very important. We haven't had both under Masai. In 2015 we were among Aldridge's top choices but we were coming off a year in which we got swept by a mediocre Wizards team. Aldridge wanted to win and signed with one of the smallest markets in the NBA. As far as I know we have not had cap space while also being an established winning team since Masai has been here.

If players didn't want to live in Canada, we wouldn't have been the lottery team that players most wanted to play for.

[PhilBlackson]

I don't consider losing every major talent we've ever had to be a success.

But we didn’t lose any of them because of the city or the country. We lost them because of terrible management OR they were traded.

We were a very dysfunctional franchise. This is well documented. The idea that players don’t want to play here is just simply not true which is why we’ve had zero problems re-signing players the past 10 years. Only exception was Kawhi who always seen as a rental and wanted to play in ONE and only one city and that was LA, his hometown.

If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents.

Things are definitely better though. I think we at least have a slight chance of retaining Scottie.

Both Kyle & DeMar are STILL talking about their love for this team/city, they barely even acknowledge their other career stops.

DeMar is borderline bitter that he wasn't able to STAY lol and Kyle does nothing but boast about this franchise & city.

This isn't the BC, Grunwald and worst of all Babcock days and even then if you actually go watch the Reimagination of VC, Vince says he didn't want to leave BUT he was literally arguing with management with the direction of the team because they had been a Playoff team for several plus years then when he's headed right into his prime decided they wanted to blow it up, no player is going for that regardless of WHERE ie/ Kobe was ready to leave the Lakers til they got Pau and can you really blame Bosh for leaving??? Let's see play with Jose & Bargnani oooor LeBron & DWade....being in MIA is just another great perk lol

[TRik]