Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[Wingy]

Pat being hurt absolutely hurt his development. Look at Coby. This team brings the best out IMHO. Even Cook was looking good. TBJ looks better, Javonte does etc... Who actually looks worse on this team? No the injury set Pat back and I don't think he would have been as timid, I think he would have found his place. That being said, this culture is in place right now and it won't go away when he is back.

As far as replacements for him, I don't see a perfect fit. Honestly Pat may amount to a hill of beans but so far AK has had a pretty good nose for guys (even Theis or Thad he kept them for a reason last year circumstances failed but that's moot) That was his first decision though really, so I am going to have faith, even though Williams frustrates me but he is a kid, more than other young kids. He wasn't even a starter in college. Blah blah blah. We are not trading for Siakim for financial reasons. Barnes or Grant this year is an upgrade no doubt but once again don't fit in the financials. I mean who do you get for him? Unless you get something surefire, I think you hang onto him. Maybe I am wrong. If AK trades him I do still trust his judgement. If he sticks with him well... I will trust that.

How !@$#-ing pathetic you even have to type the bolded part.

Yes on the general sentiment of hurting his development, but I don't know if we see this revelation of PWill even by this point, or even the end of the season if he stayed healthy. Right, wrong, or indifferent - one thing Coby has going for him is the willingness to be aggressive. Pat just doesn't have that. I know it was an extremely small sample size, but with all the new team energy in the world, and Ball/Caruso/Javonte flying around like rabid animals...we still saw the same old, steady, not even running particularly hard Pat all too often. It's a lot like it said in the recent Wiggins article that was on ESPN. Good luck getting him to go at your speed, and motivation level.

I like him, and everything fans can see points to him being a good kid, with a solid long-term future. The equation just changed when this whole thing clicked about as perfectly as it could. I just don't see the extreme upside in him. I've said this so many times, but you absolutely, positively cannot sacrifice increasing this team's chances for a guy with solid to very good upside. You only do that if you're pretty confident you're looking at a future all star...and I just don't see that at all.

[Dez]

If he’s not coming back this season then we have to trade for his replacement and ideally trade him for that replacement.

No we do not.

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

There really isn't.

Dude got injured and you want to trade him? That is the epitome of bad asset management.

[Dez]

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Nobody is untouchable, especially a guy who hasn't proven a thing like PWill. It's possible they don't fully believe in him anymore. If AKME thinks trading him for Grant or Barnes is the way to go, I trust them.

I highly doubt that AKME are as impatient as this board.

[nomorezorro]

you think the front office that traded a million picks for vets and turned over the entire roster in one season is patient?

[Bulls2021]

you think the front office that traded a million picks for vets and turned over the entire roster in one season is patient?

Good point. AKME has been the opposite of patient. They collectively whipped their dongs out and slapped them on the table with some of those moves. It shouldn't be surprising if they make another big move.

[Wingy]

you think the front office that traded a million picks for vets and turned over the entire roster in one season is patient?

Just had to chuckle as your post is such a perfect response.

I do think they would've been patient with Pat had we been the low playoff seed, happy to be showing signs of life/relevancy again as most expected. Now that we are probably the story of the whole league, things done changed. I don't expect them to give him away, but I'll be really surprised if we don't make a trade to improve this roster.

[NecessaryEvil]

Watch on YouTube

Check this out around the 2:18 mark, a reporter tells Zach how Arturas was on the radio earlier and talked about how strong the team's chemistry already is when asked about whether or not if he's going to make a move at the deadline.

Think some of you may want to temper your expectations.

We're already #1 in the east, even though covid protocols and still getting better. Sometimes it's wisest not to disturb that. The internal improvement this season has been fascinating to watch as a fan.

even here at 6:50, Swirsky talks about how you have to be careful with the moves you make because this team has really good chemistry

Watch on YouTube

I don't expect a trade of TBJ, Pat or Coby to be honest.

[Dez]

you think the front office that traded a million picks for vets and turned over the entire roster in one season is patient?

At least the hyperbole is strong in you.

So you're saying they'll give up on a 20 year old 5 games into his second season after missing training camp when his value is at it's lowest? They'll trade Pat if they get something over the top for him (which they won't get) and not for expensive guys like Grant or Wood that won't actually put us over the top.

There's no rush despite people thinking that DeRozan or Vuc are 30+ despite them not having games that rely on athleticism.

[Wingy]

Check this out around the 2:18 mark, a reporter tells Zach how Arturas was on the radio earlier and talked about how strong the team's chemistry already is when asked about whether or not if he's going to make a move at the deadline.

Think some of you may want to temper your expectations.

We're already #1 in the east, even though covid protocols and still getting better. Sometimes it's wisest not to disturb that. The internal improvement this season has been fascinating to watch as a fan.

Then AK disappointingly has a bit of the GarPax in him. You don't be as bold as he has been only to pull up lame now. Chemistry, and good vibes are obviously important, and can get your far - but ultimately you need all the horses you can ride with when you're talking playoffs, and going against the league's best.

I wouldn't read into it too much. Just means they won't be signing or trading for the Demarcus Cousins, Lance Stephenson, Christian Wood, Kevin Porter Jrs of the world. I'm sure he'll be looking for hard-playing guys who will come in with a team-first attitude.

[NecessaryEvil]

No we do not.

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

There really isn't.

Dude got injured and you want to trade him? That is the epitome of bad asset management.

Their were people here who literally wanted to bench coby and give him NO minutes after two or three games.

talking about wasting assets, sheesh

[WindyCityBorn]

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

I don't agree with this at all. So they're still "building" with 2 of their best 3 players being older than 30? They wasted most of their trade chips, draft capital and cap space on them. It's only downhill for those guys here on out realistically. If they're still "building" while being maxed out on cap space, you're pretty much banking on Coby and PWill becoming studs and somebody like Jokic signing in the future.

Do you think the Raptors were contenders when they got Kwahi? This team has more talent than they did IMO.

The team is VERY talented, but they don't have a top 5 player that can't be stopped. I love Zach and DeMar, but neither of those dudes would I build a team around if given the choice between them and Ja, KD, Luka, Trae, or Giannis. Brooklyn has 3, and then you have the Warriors and the Suns who are stacked. I believe we can go far if we get some size, but we aren't winning a championship with this squad as currently constructed. We don't make the finals unless something catastrophic happens in the East.

Having said all that, do I really want to give up on Pat just to have a chance to make it an extra round to get our heads beaten in? Zach's contract is approaching, whomever we get is going to require money as well that we'd have to let go. Having rookies in good positions like Coby and Pat, and on advantageous contracts is a big benefit to this team.

Size can be gotten without giving up the youngins, both of which we are going to need, Coby this year, Pat in the future.

I would say it’s fairly proven you cannot build a championship team around Kyrie Irving.

[WindyCityBorn]

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

Him getting injured has EVERYTHING to do with him possibly be traded. If he had playing all season found his groove like Vuc this would not even be an issue.

No it doesn't, because there's a very good chance that, had he not gotten injured, he would have continued with his 6-9 PPG timid, ineffective level of play, which would naturally create trade discussions to fill the gaping hole at PF before heading into the playoffs.

You just lost the argument by saying there is a chance he would have continued be a non-factor. Fact is we didn’t get a chance to see what he could do…because he got injured.

[NecessaryEvil]

BTW Arturas knew what he was getting into drating Patrick Williams. He is a project. I highly doubt he's getting traded anytime soon.

Arturas is damn near a basketball genius

[nomorezorro]

pat isn't really part of our "chemistry." he's played 5 games this season. that's part of the beauty of trading him!

[NecessaryEvil]

pat isn't really part of our "chemistry." he's played 5 games this season. that's part of the beauty of trading him!

He's not going anywhere this season.

A little more than two months later, executive vice president Artūras Karnišovas continued to hang the door open in an interview with the Mully & Haugh Show on 670 The Score, saying that, while the team is handling Williams’ rehab cautiously and there is not yet a timeline for him to return, “it would be great to have him back” by season’s end.

“Patrick is coming back slowly, the schedule is to be determined,” Karnišovas said. “We’re not going to put any pressure for him to come back. We’re just going to go from week to week, we’ll see how he improves. We’ll see in terms of a date. I don’t want to put any timeline on it, but it would be great to have Patrick back by end of season.”

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-arturas-karnisovas-says-patrick-williams-return-tbd

[Wingy]

BTW Arturas knew what he was getting into drating Patrick Williams. He is a project. I highly doubt he's getting traded anytime soon.

Arturas is damn near a basketball genius

I agree, but I reckon even that genius didn't figure that literally all of his moves were going to wind up being perfect. This new info. changes the calculus on his thoughts on PWill...else he's not as much of a genius as we think.

[Wingy]

pat isn't really part of our "chemistry." he's played 5 games this season. that's part of the beauty of trading him!

He's not going anywhere this season.

A little more than two months later, executive vice president Artūras Karnišovas continued to hang the door open in an interview with the Mully & Haugh Show on 670 The Score, saying that, while the team is handling Williams’ rehab cautiously and there is not yet a timeline for him to return, “it would be great to have him back” by season’s end.

“Patrick is coming back slowly, the schedule is to be determined,” Karnišovas said. “We’re not going to put any pressure for him to come back. We’re just going to go from week to week, we’ll see how he improves. We’ll see in terms of a date. I don’t want to put any timeline on it, but it would be great to have Patrick back by end of season.”

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-arturas-karnisovas-says-patrick-williams-return-tbd

What else could we possibly expect him to say here? Don't be a wuss, Luol Deng??

This is a rational Bulls era. We do rational stuff.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

I am finding myself quite annoyed reading this thread.

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

You've been pouring cold water on this team the last couple days and it's rubbing me the wrong way. That kind of thinking is akin to essentially admitting defeat to these teams months before the playoffs even start. I certainly hope the players and front office aren't thinking like that. Nobody thought the 2004 Pistons were contenders, or the 2011 Mavs, and nobody thought the 2020 Heat were going to the Finals. Nobody thought the Suns were going to the Finals last season. The games have to be played. There are only a small number of teams every year that have a chance to go all the way, and through good fortune and good management from AKME, we find ourselves as one of those few teams this year. Good chance we don't win, but at the very least a puncher's chance we do, and I'm not giving up on that in January.

I disagree (though just realized you were responding to someone else who mentioned “monster potential”). Harrison Barnes is an above average NBA starter. He became one pretty quickly, and basically stayed flat. That is what I expect out of Pat, with a small chance that he’s better, and an about equal chance that he is worse. I’m not in the “monster potential” camp… and don’t need to be to not want to package Pat PLUS other assets / useful players for a Barnes/Grant type.

If you only expect Pat to end up as a Barnes type, then why not trade him for a player who is already of that caliber? Your position would make more sense imo if you thought we were hypothetically trading away a potential Kawhi or something for Barnes or Grant.

Had he not been injured, we’d have much more clarity by now about him… that’s why the injury hurts so much. Lost critical development and evaluation time, where the Bulls are a touch better than what most expected (but go back and look where I had them in the East pre-season… 4th…)

So many talking heads and sportswriters had us struggling to even make the playoffs(doesn't speak well for them) and we're the #1 seed nearly halfway through. That's more than a touch better. I mean, I thought we were going to be really good from the outset, but that certainly wasn't the majority opinion.

Him getting injured has EVERYTHING to do with him possibly be traded. If he had playing all season found his groove like Vuc this would not even be an issue.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I, and at least a couple others, were talking about potentially trading Pat before the season even started.

Check this out around the 2:18 mark, a reporter tells Zach how Arturas was on the radio earlier and talked about how strong the team's chemistry already is when asked about whether or not if he's going to make a move at the deadline.

Think some of you may want to temper your expectations.

I don't think Zach said anything particularly positive or negative about potential deadline moves...he kind of just said the chemistry on the team is good and he leaves the decision-making to AKME.

Honestly, I wish we had the luxury of time to see how Pat pans out - I was excited about him last season before all of this happened, and I was one of the biggest proponents of keeping him in the starting lineup when people were saying to bench him during the first few games before he got hurt - but given the current salary structure, we don't really have that much of an idea of what this team is going to look like beyond next season with Vuc, Coby, Ayo, and Javonte coming off the books in 2023 and DeMar the year after that, so I think there is merit to trying to make the most of the opportunity we have this season and next. That doesn't mean I'll trade PWill for nothing - I do value him a lot(why I wouldn't trade him for Kleber or Covington or anyone like that) - but if you think PWill's ceiling is something akin to Grant or Barnes anyway, than I think a deal makes sense.

And there's another reason to try to acquire one of those guys - so no one else does. It's been reported that a number of contenders are interested in Grant. If we don't get him, who's to say Brooklyn or Milwaukee or Miami doesn't find a way, thus making our playoff path that much harder?

Anyway, a big part of this debate seems to be a rather significant disagreement about what Pat's potential actually is.

[NecessaryEvil]

BTW Arturas knew what he was getting into drating Patrick Williams. He is a project. I highly doubt he's getting traded anytime soon.

Arturas is damn near a basketball genius

I agree, but I reckon even that genius didn't figure that literally all of his moves were going to wind up being perfect. This new info. changes the calculus on his thoughts on PWill...else he's not as much of a genius as we think.

or....maybe he did? He did build the current Denver team. We are literally lucky as **** to have Arturas in Chicago.

[Wingy]

I am finding myself quite annoyed reading this thread.

Couldn't agree more with pretty much your entire post. Well done. Wish I coulda given it more than the single +1.