Jaylen Brown Thread – Improvements and Discussion

jmr07019 · Post #81 » by **jmr07019** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:06 pm

Derozan is an interesting study because he never cracked 4 apg until age 28 and he never cracked 55% TS until age 30. For the majority of his career you could call him an overpaid chucker.

Fencer reregistered · Post #82 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:17 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
greenroom31 wrote:I don't understand (and never have) the energy this board spends complaining about Brown and Tatum's imperfections. They are the only two definite and major positives this organization has right now.

Much of the complaints and nitpicking would be addressed by having better players around them (a real point guard, better shooters, etc.) but instead of discussing those root cause issues, posters prefer to complain about the symptoms (too many turnovers, not enough assists). Spoiler: our 23 and 25 year old wings are not amazing distributors on top of being elite scorers... the horror!!

Equally pointless and annoying is the need by a great number of posters to compare Jaylen and Jayson on a nightly basis. It's sports radio hot-take garbage, and possibly fueled by the Victory Cigar vote. Jayson being good doesn't make Jaylen worse and vice versa. We don't have to compare them or complain about one every time the other has a good night. Yet I guarantee in 12 hours if one plays bad we will hear it again, win or lose... so dumb and pointless.

Agreed.

Lets look at the positive of each along with the negatives

Brown
3 level scoring
rebounding
multipositional defense
athletic
pushes the ball
young
great contract
iso capable scorer
pick and roll operator
ability to be clutch

Cons
Not a great playmaker, but improving
Turns ball over more than you would like (although not terrible) partly due to con number 1

Tatum
3 level scoring
rebounding
defense
playmaking (greatly improving)
athletic
young
great contract
great handle
pick and roll operator iso capable scorer
ability to be clutch

Cons
Not shooting his averages
can settle at times.

Not alot of cons here

Both: Effort ebbs and flows. Most especially, like almost every other star perimeter player in the history of the game, they have trouble consistently dominating the game at both ends of the floor at once.

Brown: Occasionally makes a glaring defensive error.

sam_I_am · Post #83 » by **sam_I_am** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:17 pm

A lot of people here imply Sabonis is better than Brown. I like Sabonis. 20/12/6 is really good regular season production. 12/6/2 in the playoffs is embarrassing. Why would anybody ever trade a guy like JB who routinely gets better in the playoffs and has his best moments in the fourth quarters of deep playoff runs? And yet many here routinely say they would.

Stan34 · Post #84 » by **Stan34** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:25 pm

To stop some other toxic narrative: Jaylen has the best Defensive Rating on the team by far at 101.9.
Second best is RW with 104.6, then Horford 104.9, Tatum 105.2. Smart 106.1.
I'm pretty sure in this case for some people those adv stats dont tell the truth

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Floody100 · Post #85 » by **Floody100** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:20 pm

jmr07019 wrote:Derozan is an interesting study because he never cracked 4 apg until age 28 and he never cracked 55% TS until age 30. For the majority of his career you could call him an overpaid chucker.

It’s funny. No one really wanted him the last couple of seasons yet a certain someone on this board is going to use a 35 game sample size to now justify trading a 32 year old at the end of his prime for a 25 year old that’s about to hit his prime.

Any GM who did that would be laughed at & probably fired.

Larry_Russell · Post #86 » by **Larry_Russell** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:26 pm

Floody100 wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:Derozan is an interesting study because he never cracked 4 apg until age 28 and he never cracked 55% TS until age 30. For the majority of his career you could call him an overpaid chucker.

It’s funny. No one really wanted him the last couple of seasons yet a certain someone on this board is going to use a 35 game sample size to now justify trading a 32 year old at the end of his prime for a 25 year old that’s about to hit his prime.

Any GM who did that would be laughed at & probably fired.

If I was picking an allstar team, or picking a single season fantasy league I might pick Demar over Brown for this season.

I still expect demar to disappear in the playoffs though

ballup · Post #87 » by **ballup** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:15 pm

jmr07019 wrote:Derozan is an interesting study because he never cracked 4 apg until age 28 and he never cracked 55% TS until age 30. For the majority of his career you could call him an overpaid chucker.

Speaking of DeRozan, I have this theory that Jaylen has been taking part of his game. Both have this pronounced gather, which helps them square up to the basket when taking runners/floaters. Jaylen has been finishing in the restricted area in the high 60%, similar to Derozan. This year he is down in other parts of the paint, but he has shown in multiple seasons to finish around and above 40%.

ryan in Maine · Post #88 » by **ryan in Maine** » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:45 am

Bam

Spoiler:

DeMar

Spoiler:

Jamal

Spoiler:

Brandon

Spoiler:

Khris

Spoiler:

Darius

Spoiler:

Dejounte

Spoiler:

LaMelo

Spoiler:

Jonas

Spoiler:

Jaylen is a great scorer on all three levels.

That's pretty valuable in today's league. Esp in the playoffs. JB is a better playoff performer than a bunch of guys from your lists.

He's way too streaky and has a negative assist/TO ration which his fanboys can't stand to hear for some reason as if it's a made up number or inconsequential lol.

He's trying to improve here but it's been ugly at times. Does JB have the worst ast:to ratio of all of the players you've mentioned in both of your lists?

Mostly, I think he's got a shorter shelf-life due to his injuries so that's a concern.

We're all worried about his health. He's got to stay on the court to get a feel for things and smooth out the streaky shooting. Has JB missed the most games out of all the players you've mentioned in both of your lists?

And he's not a good fit next to Tatum who is also a chucker but at least is a much better passer and defender.

Why isn't he a good fit?

What's your definition of a chucker? Is JB the biggest chucker out of all the players you've mentioned in both of your lists?

The NBA media adores outspoken woke and political guys like him so when he was putting up great stats he was going to make it.

Not gonna lie that's why I like him lol.

Dangit · Post #89 » by **Dangit** » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:37 am

Trading him is our only shot at improving this team significantly in the near future.

Dude has some solid showings but has absolutely horrible court vision and insanely low basketball IQ 90% of the time .
People may love his politics but that's not gonna help us win games.
He's seen as a bigger talent then he is and that's really good for us. .. hopefully Brad and the front office see this too and move him for a better fit next to Tatum .

gocelts · Post #90 » by **gocelts** » Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:23 pm

We’re so fortunate that Brown has the maturity to improve his game on his own as he’s DEFINITELY not getting from his moron coach.

We really have to keep Brown. Ime and Stevens will just screw up whatever play we trade them for.

BostonCouchGM · Post #91 » by **BostonCouchGM** » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:58 pm

Derozan
"I can see a win now team going for it if they needed a secondary ball handler who can get to their spots and take big shots. I wouldn't move JB for DD at their ages myself but if you want to go for it it I'd understand."

Yeah, a win now, next 2-3 seasons G.M. is likely making that move seeing that DD now shoots threes. As to why he failed in previous seasons being a #1 it's because of Lebron. No Lebron and that Raptors team maybe makes another Finals or two imho

Ingram

"I wouldn't call him a #1 option personally. Zion is their #1 now technically. Since arriving from LA Ingram has led them to 30-42 and 31-41 seasons and looks to be on pace for the same in 2022."

Zion barely plays and late in games they go to Ingram and have the whole time. He's been their #1 and while that success rate isn't impressive, he's doing it largely without Zion and a pretty bad roster for a clueless organization.

"It feels like you're dinging JB for stuff that you're overlooking for other players. What makes Ingram less of a chucker than JB? He's putting up a similar amount of attempts but not shooting as well as JB. I think you're also drumming up this big drop off in JB's defense. He still looks like a good defender to me--certainly better than many of the names you brought up."

Ingram is absolutely a chucker like Jaylen. Taking Ingram over Jaylen is just by a little and mostly because he's just a more natural basketball player with less injury concerns. I've always thought he was "too cool for school" and don't actually want him or players like him on the team. I wouldn't actively try and trade Jaylen for Ingram but I'd take Ingram over Jaylen if that makes sense

Middleton

"You trade JB for 30 year old Middleton this season? He's one of the players turning the ball over more than JB. Their shooting is similar overall which kind of surprised me. The gap between their 3pt shooting is smaller than the gap between their shooting inside the line. Middleton is a better shooter, yes but I wouldn't call him a better scorer.

Idk why you keep wanting to trade JB for guys in their thirties lol. Maybe if we were closer to the EC finals

Middleton's Assist/TO % is much better. He's having a somewhat down year shooting but historically he's been a better 3pt shooter than Jaylen by a fair amount. Maybe we'd be closer to being a ECF type team with Middleton. And like I said, Middleton has been there and done that. Proven. I don't have to surmise whether he can be a go to scorer and difference maker in the playoffs. So yeah, if you're goal is to win now, Middleton is an upgrade imho

Garland

"Garland has def surprised me but you might call Allen and Mobley instrumental to the Cavs 2022 season too lol. Idk if I'd make that trade. I think I'd want to see Garland do it for a few seasons first myself. It would be nice having a young point who can shoot and pass well."

No doubt. It's a group effort. My impression is Sexton and the Cavs insistence on running the offense through him, hurt Garland. Now without Sexton people can see the dynamic PG Garland was promising to be as a prospect. Remember, he's playing alongside some atrocious shooters besides Love. Okoro, Mobley and Allen are awful shooters. So his assist numbers would be even better. He's currently 8th in the league. I think he's now and going forward going to be the better player. I would rather just stick with Pritchard though. Pritchard and Jaylen is a better combo than Garland and Nesmith/Langford

Dejounte

"His shooting splits don't jump out as a #1 option. Do you think he'd shoot better in Boston? This sounds attractive based on potential but idk that it would translate. I haven't seen a lot of D Murray if I'm being honest. I know his reputation as a defender and passer though. How does he compliment Tatum?"

I think Dejounte only needs to shoot 35% from three to be effective since it's really just to open up his drives (finishes/kicks). He's hovered around that 2 of the past 3 years. I think he'd get more wide open shots with us so maybe he'd be a better shooter. His defense, energy and passing would make him a great fit next to Tatum. He's really dynamic and likely still has 10-15% more upside making him all-NBA potentially should they put it together or he got to a bigger market or better team.

LaMelo

"LaMelo is better at running an offense. Isn't that his only advantage over JB? I'm enamored with his potential too but he's not there yet. His potential is undeniable"

Glad we agree. He really is must watch TV

Jonas

"I guess I never thought of Jonas as a stretch big. I feel like I don't see him shooting many threes. Also how mobile is he these days?

What's your trade proposal for bringing Jonas to Boston? Do you move R Williams to make room?"

He hasn't always been a stretch five. He's just recently been allowed to be more of what that is which helps spacing and he's shooting at a 44% clip. With us, he'd probably shoot 2-3 times more threes. All those wide open threes Horford passes on would be shot with Jonas. His % would dip but a 7 footer shooting 39% who can also score inside and rebounds at a great clip would work wonders in our offense. He's not a great perimeter defender but Horford mostly isn't any longer and TimeLord remains very much a work in progress there so it's not like we'd be giving up much in that regard. I think I'd play TimeLord at C. So we'd still run two big lineups but our spacing and rebounding would be better so it'd work much more effectively.

I think NOP should tank hard and completely rebuild. They should expect a good young player, role player and first round pick for him. I would be willing to free Nesmith from his shackles, Grant Williams and a 1st. I'm not sure they'd take though since if he was made available there'd be a bidding war. Over the next several seasons Jonas could really change the fortunes of competing teams. If he went to TOR for instance, I think it'd put them over the top and they'd be favorites to make the ECF for the foreseeable future. Or if he went to the NY, ATL, CHA, DAL, etc they'd be onto something. And most of those teams have comparable if not better offers than us I'm sure

Jaylen is a great scorer on all three levels

"That's pretty valuable in today's league. Esp in the playoffs. JB is a better playoff performer than a bunch of guys from your lists."

that's why he's ranked so high, almost entirely because of his scoring alone. If his defense was what it was two seasons plus ago he would likely be ranked in the mid-30s. He's had his moments in the playoffs offensively but so much, if not all of it, is negated or mitigated by his defense and inopportune turnovers. I think people think me saying Jaylen is a top 45 player is a slight or hating. That's really good. He's imho a bonafide #3 on a championship team no doubt

Assis/TO

"Does JB have the worst ast:to ratio of all of the players you've mentioned in both of your lists?"

Absolutely. I did a quick search so maybe I'm missing someone but he's ranked #423 in the NBA. It's REALLY bad. Like, inexcusably bad. He can work all he wants on it but it's an innate issue. He doesn't have a good handle and he's got terrible BBIQ. That's why he has so many turnovers and tunnel vision. You can get better when the game slows down for you somewhat but if that hasn't happened by now, after a lifetime of dribbling a ball and playing the sport, there's likely very little improvement coming in that regard.

Injuries

"We're all worried about his health. He's got to stay on the court to get a feel for things and smooth out the streaky shooting. Has JB missed the most games out of all the players you've mentioned in both of your lists?"

Others have had major injuries but that's understandable. With Jaylen he seems to have nagging injuries that pop up season after season. And unlike those other guys, it's sapped their games and potential. He still has incredible burst when he's going to try and score and occasionally when locked in on defense. But these injuries have imho forced him to "save himself" for offense which has turned his defense from a plus to almost a negative. He went from an ascending two-way player to just a one-dimensional chucker. And his potential degenerative knee affects his ability to unlock more potential. I think he's pretty near maxed out because of it. Maybe another 5% but that's the difference between top 35 and top 45 player.

Fit with Tatum

"Why isn't he a good fit?"

You can't have two guys, who, when they don't have the ball, just stand an watch the other ISO. I get they're supposedly providing spacing. But it's predictable so it's easier to double and cheat. It's a coaching issue partly but again, the injuries might be forcing their hand. They can't have Jaylen running around and through screens like he should be since he's gassed and physically incapable. And since Jaylen isn't a playmaker, Tatum isn't getting as many wide open looks from Jaylen (or others tbh) as Jaylen gets from Tatum (and others) which hurts Tatum's game. People are actually on record preferring Jaylen over Tatum and lots of that is because they don't realize the negative effect Jaylen has on Tatum and his efficiency. If they were a good fit together, and were truly two top 25 players like everyone here thinks, they wouldn't be hovering at .500 the past two seasons no matter what the surrounding cast is.

What's your definition of a chucker? Is JB the biggest chucker out of all the players you've mentioned in both of your lists?

A chucker is someone providing very little besides scoring, who is streaky, isn't a playmaker for others, doesn't play defense and despite all that, has tunnel vision and puts up 16-20 shots a game. I think any player getting that many shots, especially wide open looks Jaylen gets, and facing defensive indifference, should get 20 ppg in their sleep. But it won't translate to wins. Jaylen, Murray and Ingram are all chuckers to varying degrees. None of them are particularly great at anything but scoring, definitely don't play defense at a high level. These types have their place in the league no doubt. But empty chuckers are dime a dozen and shouldn't be considered top 25 players unless they're leading the league in scoring like Beal or KD early in his career. I was very concerned about Tatum ending up being a chucker like Melo but he's now shown me enough playmaking and has always been a much better defender which is why he's a legit potential top 10-12 player.

The NBA media adores outspoken woke and political guys like him so when he was putting up great stats he was going to make it

"Not gonna lie that's why I like him lol"

which is your right as a fan. But it clouds your judgment and destroys objectivity for a lot of people. I hate his politics. It makes me not want to defend him as a player. But I don't use it to tear him down like I've heard people use it to elevate him. I'm strictly talking about him as a player. An oft-injured, average at best defender with a poor handle and abysmal BBIQ player, who also happens to be a deadly combination of speed/power, who is one of the best finishers with the sweetest shooting stroke, capable of scoring at all three levels. Even if I agreed with his politics that would still be how I'd define him.

What I am looking for in a young player/prospect is:

Someone who can dribble through or around traffic without panicking, turning over the ball or lifting their dribble because they are worried about turning over the ball. That separates the true stars from everyone else. Pretty much every non center in the league I have above Jaylen has this skill. I'm also looking for BBIQ. When they draw a double do they know what that means? Who is now open? Do they have the ability to think quickly on their feet? And then to take it to another level, are they intentionally setting guys up in advance to make that happen? If you can't run a PnR, with how easy it is since they're almost all illegal moving screens that force bigs to switch onto you, how can you be considered a top 25-30 player? If you still get cooked on defense out of laziness or inattention (back cuts, taking over when should go under or vice versa, in the PnR) like Jaylen does on the regular, how can just his scoring be enough to put him in the top 25-30 players? And if you're teammate is a bonafide top 10-15 player, like Tatum most assuredly is, how can you be a .500 team two seasons in a row if you yourself are a legit top 25-30 player. I don't have the stats to back it but it seems like with Tatum out we fold and when Jaylen's off we're perfectly fine. I could be wrong.

anyway, thanks for the back and forth. It's all I ever want. No attacking, just b-ball talk and debate. It's refreshing!

akidlittle · Post #92 » by **akidlittle** » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:21 pm

Love seeing Jaylen's 2017-2019 hairstyle back. He looks like a classic JB now) Hope JT gets a haircut and we'll have our 2018 back))

Post #93 » by **Feed Your Head** » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:43 pm

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Post #94 » by **Parliament10** » Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:46 pm

Dangit wrote:Trading him is our only shot at improving this team significantly in the near future.

Dude has some solid showings but has absolutely horrible court vision and insanely low basketball IQ 90% of the time .
People may love his politics but that's not gonna help us win games.
He's seen as a bigger talent then he is and that's really good for us. .. hopefully Brad and the front office see this too and move him for a better fit next to Tatum .

You talking about 47-38-71 Career, Jaylen Brown?
It'd be next to impossible to get a "Better Fit" next to Tatum.

Bringing in a 3rd person, may be a better option.
But getting rid of one of the Dynamic Duo? -- That's a No-No.

Dangit · Post #95 » by **Dangit** » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:36 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
Dangit wrote:Trading him is our only shot at improving this team significantly in the near future.

Dude has some solid showings but has absolutely horrible court vision and insanely low basketball IQ 90% of the time .
People may love his politics but that's not gonna help us win games.
He's seen as a bigger talent then he is and that's really good for us. .. hopefully Brad and the front office see this too and move him for a better fit next to Tatum .

You talking about 47-38-71 Career, Jaylen Brown?
It'd be next to impossible to get a "Better Fit" next to Tatum.

Bringing in a 3rd person, may be a better option.
But getting rid of one of the Dynamic Duo? -- That's a No-No.

The dynamic duo isn't very Dynamic..... we loose alot of games ...

rd26 · Post #96 » by **rd26** » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:59 pm

Dangit wrote:
Parliament10 wrote:
Dangit wrote:Trading him is our only shot at improving this team significantly in the near future.

Dude has some solid showings but has absolutely horrible court vision and insanely low basketball IQ 90% of the time .
People may love his politics but that's not gonna help us win games.
He's seen as a bigger talent then he is and that's really good for us. .. hopefully Brad and the front office see this too and move him for a better fit next to Tatum .

You talking about 47-38-71 Career, Jaylen Brown?
It'd be next to impossible to get a "Better Fit" next to Tatum.

Bringing in a 3rd person, may be a better option.
But getting rid of one of the Dynamic Duo? -- That's a No-No.

The dynamic duo isn't very Dynamic..... we loose alot of games ...

So do the Lakers.

Post #97 » by **Parliament10** » Wed Feb 2, 2022 2:14 am

AKFO · Post #98 » by **AKFO** » Wed Feb 2, 2022 5:19 am

[streamable][/streamable]

The Comedian wrote:

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Pretty much been doing that the last three years. Don’t think he gets enough credit for consistently doing so much of his scoring off-ball and without a screen. By definition right there one of the best off ball players in the league. Another reason splitting up the jays has never made sense to me.

Stan34 · Post #99 » by **Stan34** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:53 pm

People here (always the same... basically haters) continue to question Jaylen about ball handling, playmaking and so on. They say he is the same player he was bla bla bla and someone say he is regressed.
From January first, 33 games, he is 3.9 A vs 2.6 TO. Trending is really good for a player that usually have 1:1 Assist/TO ratio.
He is in a bad shooting slump, on the same split, last 33 games he is 33% fron three. Once he comes back to his normal % everything will be OK.

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MagicBagley18 · Post #100 » by **MagicBagley18** » Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:32 pm

Weird time to bump this one