2021-2022 Regular Season Game 45: Portland Trail Blazers (17-25) at Orlando Magic (8-36) - 1/17/22 at 7pm ET

[pepe1991]

[Knightro]

Maybe it's just me, but I look at these numbers and see pretty similar players and would give the slight edge to Carter given he's two years younger than Vucevic was at the time and the fact that the Magic play better on both ends of the floor when Carter's on the floor compared to Vucevic.

Vucevic played more minutes and was afforded the opportunity to shoot the ball more. But that's about it.

Vucevic Year 4, Age 24
.548 TS%, .005 3PT Rate, .181 FT Rate, 18.1 REB%, 11.0 AST%, 1.1 STL%, 1.7 BLK%, 10.2 TOV%, 26.0 USG%, .133 WS/48, 2.0 OBPM, -1.2 DBPM, 0.9 BPM

-6.1 NET on a -5.9 Team NET
101.3 ORTG on a 101.0 Team ORTG
107.5 DRTG on a 106.8 Team DRTG

Carter Year 4, Age 22
.580 TS%, .372 3PT Rate, .270 FT Rate, 18.6 REB%, 15.1 AST%, 1.2 STL%, 2.0 BLK%, 12.5 TOV%, 19.1 USG%, .128 WS/48, 0.9 OBPM, 0.5 DBPM, 1.4 BPM

-6.0 NET on a -9.1 Team NET
103.8 ORTG on 102.7 Team ORTG
109.8 DRTG on a 111.8 Team DRTG

So Carter is more efficient then Vooch. Better at getting to the line than Vooch. Better REB/AST/STL/BLK numbers than Vooch. And more impactful offensively and defensively compared to the overall team performance that Vooch.

But Vooch was better because he took 6 more shots a game and used 7% more possessions than Carter over his additional minutes on the floor?

[thelead]

I assume Phoenix will match.

The rumor is that the Suns were willing to give Ayton a 3-year or a 4-year max and Ayton insisted on a 5-year max and that the Suns wouldn't do 5 years.

But the Magic/any other team would only be able to offer a 4-year max.

I think they match as well. They're too good to mess up what they have right now.

Is Miles worth the max? I don't (not even close) and I think that's what it would take for MJ not to match.

I don't think you can really look at it that way. We have cap space but that cap space is only useful if we can get an asset out of it. We're going to have to take a chance on someone before our window to spend dries up with extensions due and Bridges ticks the boxes for a guy you want to take a chance on. His trajectory looks good. He is young. I don't think you are banking on him changing the course of your franchise. It's just about adding value to the roster. The only significant risk is if the contract turns bad for some reasons or another, but I think the chances of that are quite low in this case.

I think Charlotte matches unless you can work out a SnT, but that isn't the worst thing in the world. If you strikeout, so be it. The worst that can happen is that Charlotte loses some long-term flexibility.

I don't disagree with the premise of what you're saying, I just haven't dug into our future cap situation and future FA classes. I'm a bit underwhelmed by the choice presented this summer. TBH, I don't know much about Miles' defensive metrics though. Offensively, there is a lot to love there. At the end of the day, signing big FA's while your talented young guys are still on rookie deals is the best way for teams to place themselves in the best position possible. There is no disagreement there.

[thelead]

Maybe it's just me, but I look at these numbers and see pretty similar players and would give the slight edge to Carter given he's two years younger than Vucevic was at the time and the fact that the Magic play better on both ends of the floor when Carter's on the floor compared to Vucevic.

Vucevic played more minutes and was afforded the opportunity to shoot the ball more. But that's about it.

Vucevic Year 4, Age 24
.548 TS%, .005 3PT Rate, .181 FT Rate, 18.1 REB%, 11.0 AST%, 1.1 STL%, 1.7 BLK%, 10.2 TOV%, 26.0 USG%, .133 WS/48, 2.0 OBPM, -1.2 DBPM, 0.9 BPM

-6.1 NET on a -5.9 Team NET
101.3 ORTG on a 101.0 Team ORTG
107.5 DRTG on a 106.8 Team DRTG

Carter Year 4, Age 22
.580 TS%, .372 3PT Rate, .270 FT Rate, 18.6 REB%, 15.1 AST%, 1.2 STL%, 2.0 BLK%, 12.5 TOV%, 19.1 USG%, .128 WS/48, 0.9 OBPM, 0.5 DBPM, 1.4 BPM

-6.0 NET on a -9.1 Team NET
103.8 ORTG on 102.7 Team ORTG
109.8 DRTG on a 111.8 Team DRTG

So Carter is more efficient then Vooch. Better at getting to the line than Vooch. Better REB/AST/STL/BLK numbers than Vooch. And more impactful offensively and defensively compared to the overall team performance that Vooch.

But Vooch was better because he took 6 more shots a game and used 7% more possessions than Carter over his additional minutes on the floor?

Vuc got ALL the minutes and shots that he wanted. I have no doubt that WCJ could produce similar results in a similar role... but guess what? Neither WCJ OR Vuc are cornerstone players. Give me WCJ on his contract over Vuc ALL day EVERY day.

[drsd]

CJ McCollum hero-ball TO that followed was just as bone-headed. Neither was pretty, and both sum-up the game.


The teams combined for 33 TOs, and Portland "won" the FG% battle by going 37-90 (41%). yuck.


..

[drsd]

Positive stat-line of the game. Wagner and Wagner were co-scoring leaders in this game.

(( oddly both had plus/minus lines of 12; but one with a plus and the other ith a minus sign in front ))

[drsd]

Hampton is starting to resemble an NBA-capable guard. That's good.

Suggs looks like he is really settling in to the primary back-up PG role. That's great.

[drsd]

What's the betting line on Anthony getting more boards than Lopez?

How much money did I win?
Anthony-9 and Lopez-4


..

[YosemiteSam]

Went to our first game if the year last night (bought tix pre season with hope to see Dame who we love)

Somehow, they look even worse in person. This team is straight TERRIBLE.

I don’t even get positive development vibes watching them. They should offer all ticket holders an apology.

[tiderulz]

Maybe it's just me, but I look at these numbers and see pretty similar players and would give the slight edge to Carter given he's two years younger than Vucevic was at the time and the fact that the Magic play better on both ends of the floor when Carter's on the floor compared to Vucevic.

Vucevic played more minutes and was afforded the opportunity to shoot the ball more. But that's about it.

Vucevic Year 4, Age 24
.548 TS%, .005 3PT Rate, .181 FT Rate, 18.1 REB%, 11.0 AST%, 1.1 STL%, 1.7 BLK%, 10.2 TOV%, 26.0 USG%, .133 WS/48, 2.0 OBPM, -1.2 DBPM, 0.9 BPM

-6.1 NET on a -5.9 Team NET
101.3 ORTG on a 101.0 Team ORTG
107.5 DRTG on a 106.8 Team DRTG

Carter Year 4, Age 22
.580 TS%, .372 3PT Rate, .270 FT Rate, 18.6 REB%, 15.1 AST%, 1.2 STL%, 2.0 BLK%, 12.5 TOV%, 19.1 USG%, .128 WS/48, 0.9 OBPM, 0.5 DBPM, 1.4 BPM

-6.0 NET on a -9.1 Team NET
103.8 ORTG on 102.7 Team ORTG
109.8 DRTG on a 111.8 Team DRTG

So Carter is more efficient then Vooch. Better at getting to the line than Vooch. Better REB/AST/STL/BLK numbers than Vooch. And more impactful offensively and defensively compared to the overall team performance that Vooch.

But Vooch was better because he took 6 more shots a game and used 7% more possessions than Carter over his additional minutes on the floor?

big thing, WCJ cannot stay healthy. its always something

[JF5]

Wendell doesn't struggle to play Center. He struggles to Rim protect. He's always matched up with the much more physical/bigger opposition.

Outside of Embiid he usually holds his own on, on ball situations. Also, most Centers in the league don't play much of that role on offense and aren't power oriented anyway So it's far from the truth that he can't play that position.

You bring a healthy Issac back and who is a great defender/shot blocker it just hides the only thing he's weak at. He rotates well and is able to cover the smaller guard when he needs to.

I do believe though the team will try to get Ayton though. Make that front court the defensive trio from hell if they all can stay healthy. Also allows diverse assets that can be traded for a better player in the future if need be.

We'll see what happens...

[pepe1991]

Maybe it's just me, but I look at these numbers and see pretty similar players and would give the slight edge to Carter given he's two years younger than Vucevic was at the time and the fact that the Magic play better on both ends of the floor when Carter's on the floor compared to Vucevic.

Vucevic played more minutes and was afforded the opportunity to shoot the ball more. But that's about it.

Vucevic Year 4, Age 24
.548 TS%, .005 3PT Rate, .181 FT Rate, 18.1 REB%, 11.0 AST%, 1.1 STL%, 1.7 BLK%, 10.2 TOV%, 26.0 USG%, .133 WS/48, 2.0 OBPM, -1.2 DBPM, 0.9 BPM

-6.1 NET on a -5.9 Team NET
101.3 ORTG on a 101.0 Team ORTG
107.5 DRTG on a 106.8 Team DRTG

Carter Year 4, Age 22
.580 TS%, .372 3PT Rate, .270 FT Rate, 18.6 REB%, 15.1 AST%, 1.2 STL%, 2.0 BLK%, 12.5 TOV%, 19.1 USG%, .128 WS/48, 0.9 OBPM, 0.5 DBPM, 1.4 BPM

-6.0 NET on a -9.1 Team NET
103.8 ORTG on 102.7 Team ORTG
109.8 DRTG on a 111.8 Team DRTG

So Carter is more efficient then Vooch. Better at getting to the line than Vooch. Better REB/AST/STL/BLK numbers than Vooch. And more impactful offensively and defensively compared to the overall team performance that Vooch.

But Vooch was better because he took 6 more shots a game and used 7% more possessions than Carter over his additional minutes on the floor?

Because you compare full sesaon of player to 37 games of other. You completly ignore rest of season tragjectory witch is key factor.
Wendell Carter started season with best streach of his entire career, especially from outside. Later on, much like Cole and Bamba and their hot streak, it burned out very fast.

Last 15 games of Wendell Carter by numbers
15 ppg
11,7 rpg
3,6 apg
2,6 TO
3,7 fouls

44% FG, 26,9% for 3, 74% FT . All those nubmers are way closer to Wendell's reality than previous streach ( 50-29-74 for career).
Advanced scoring numbers: 54% TS, 48& eFG, -1,8 net rating (108,6 off, -110,5 defensive)

Truth about complete lack of sustainability of his current production is best viewed through his shot chart. This year he shot 44% from mid range and 33% for 3. His career numbers are 37% and 29%.


As for context, Vuc was lead scorer on his team, that won 25 games. This dream can only dream of 25 wins ( would probably take them 140 games to get there , on this pace), and Wendell can't even be top scorer. Or even second.

Vučević biggest issue until he added 3 point shot was just that. Not expending game beyond 3 point line.
Wendell's biggest issues are kind a impossible to fix. He can't stay healthy at all ( never played 50 games in his career ) and he can't play center full time and he is not mobile to play PF.

Comparing those two is pointless. NBA changed whole lot from 2014-15 to 2021-22. Effective field goal percentage in 2014-15 was 49,6% , now it's over 52%. NBA teams were shooting 23 threes a game, now 35. Average nba offense scored 100 points, now it's 108. When you add context to numbers, you get simple fact that Vuc in 2014-15 was superior in every fashion to PF on worst team in nba in current one. Not sure what's there to argue. I understand that BBRob can't wrap head around reality, but comming from you, that's odd. This comparison feels like comparing Ben Wallace to Christan Wood. Guess who would come off as superior without context? But league in 2007 and league in 2022 are two different sports.

[thelead]

Now we're talking about what a dream it would be if Vuc could lead us to 25 wins? LOL

The goal is to NOT win games right now. Vuc cost us players like Ja and Luka while not winning anything that matters.

[Xatticus]

CJ McCollum hero-ball TO that followed was just as bone-headed. Neither was pretty, and both sum-up the game.


The teams combined for 33 TOs, and Portland "won" the FG% battle by going 37-90 (41%). yuck.


..

That was a miscommunication. Bamba was inbounding as though it was an ordinary play. Anthony wanted to walk the ball up the floor to preserve the game/shot clock. It's an odd habit for a dude that burns so much of the shot clock dribbling in place at times.

[basketballRob]

CJ shot the ball well but Chuma gave him a hard time. I didn't watch the replay but it looked like CJ kicked at him once when Chuma fell over him when he was on the floor.

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[drsd]

The goal is to NOT win games right now.

With this loss, Orlando is 3 1/2 games back of the 29th worst team, and a full 5 games back of the 28th worst team. I don't care how home loaded the schedule is coming forward, Orlando will not rise to 27th - the Magic is 7 back there. This is a bottom three effort this annum.

Get ready for this, "And with the fifth pick in the NBA draft, the Orlando Magic selects ......".


..

[Skybox]

Now we're talking about what a dream it would be if Vuc could lead us to 25 wins? LOL

The goal is to NOT win games right now. Vuc cost us players like Ja and Luka while not winning anything that matters.

So now you're blaming Vuc for us not getting Luka? Great take...how about the bad weather?

[thelead]

Now we're talking about what a dream it would be if Vuc could lead us to 25 wins? LOL

The goal is to NOT win games right now. Vuc cost us players like Ja and Luka while not winning anything that matters.

So now you're blaming Vuc for us not getting Luka? Great take...how about the bad weather?

So you can give him credit for winning a little but I can’t give him credit for winning a little?

[Ducklett]

We really bragging about Vuc and the 25 win season. Good **** god what has happened to this community. You think the Vuc "hate" was bad here, go check the 24 page dumpster fire that is the "We Hate Vuc" thread on the Bulls forum.

[Optimus_Steel]

CJ McCollum hero-ball TO that followed was just as bone-headed. Neither was pretty, and both sum-up the game.


The teams combined for 33 TOs, and Portland "won" the FG% battle by going 37-90 (41%). yuck.


..

That was a miscommunication. Bamba was inbounding as though it was an ordinary play. Anthony wanted to walk the ball up the floor to preserve the game/shot clock. It's an odd habit for a dude that burns so much of the shot clock dribbling in place at times.

That just another example of Bamba's lack of awareness. That play is essentially a microcosm of his career.

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