OT: Bonds & Clemens Miss HOF

[azcatz11]

I do think that arguably the best player in the history of their sport should have made the Hall Of Fame.

Cheaters don't belong, sorry.

Is it cheating if everyone did it tho?

[SkyBill40]

I do think that arguably the best player in the history of their sport should have made the Hall Of Fame.

Cheaters don't belong, sorry.

Is it cheating if everyone did it tho?

That's just it: Not EVERYONE was cheating. If that were the case, there'd be a lot more players implicated than the relative few who were. You can't make a blanket generalization like that with no hard, factual basis to support it.

[FrodoFraggins]

The hall has stupid moral clauses in it's BBWA voting rules. And Bonds and clemens were 100% HOFers before they juiced so it makes it complicated. I personally love Ortiz but wouldn't vote him in if Clemens and bonds can't get in.

They'll get in via the veterans committee as they let too many players in without worthy resumes.

Schilling would have gotten in this year for sure if he didn't whine to the hall asking to have his name removed from the ballot. He was only 4% away just a year ago. He's the epitome of borderline HOFer with his 216 career wins and no Cy Youngs.

[Michael Bradley]

I do think that arguably the best player in the history of their sport should have made the Hall Of Fame.

Cheaters don't belong, sorry.

Is it cheating if everyone did it tho?

Griffey didn't cheat, and he spent the second half of his career perpetually injured (steroids might have helped him stay healthy). Jeter didn't cheat. There are many examples. Many of the great players in that era probably were, but not all of them.

[bebopdeluxe]

I said all professional athletes. I didn't say MLB only. And from that era yes 100% it was 99%. Steroids were literally over the counter and accessible even to high school kids at the time without any parental assistance beyond they weren't exactly cheap. use today might be down as again, kids today have to at least do some Grey market stuff to get SARMs, which are also perfectly legal to buy.

Provide your evidence to support the claim you just made. Burden of proof is on you and no one else. While there may have been abuse going on to levels far further reaching than what came to light, to throw out a definitive as you have is utterly absurd and worthless without empirical evidence that can be plainly and easily cited.

He can’t - because it is not true.

Is the number 15%? 20%? 25%? Probably.

Not 99%.

[dhsilv2]

Cheaters don't belong, sorry.

Is it cheating if everyone did it tho?

Griffey didn't cheat, and he spent the second half of his career perpetually injured (steroids might have helped him stay healthy). Jeter didn't cheat. There are many examples. Many of the great players in that era probably were, but not all of them.

You have no evidence they didn't. This is effectively saying these guys had zero competitive spirit. The guys from that era who were caught were taking it to the extremes. Even just one well timed cycle for 8 weeks could have helped either of these guys get to a new level of strength which could have helped them for years.

This is where things get weird. Sure if you're looking to be your absolute best forever, then you'd be using these things....forever. And yes if you go off these things you will lose a LOT and after a few cycles, EVERYTHING new. But even using things once can help people get past hurdles and that will make getting back their easier.

We'll never know for sure. But just like I know for a fact about 90% of the guys I knew who competed in natural TESTED body building, used steroids. I'm just gonna go out on a limb and bet that pro baseball players who spent most of their careers WITHOUT testing, likely explored something. It's just common sense.

Now if the standard is..were you going as extreme as bonds...yeah neither of those guys were THAT hardcore with it! But that's a whole other level. Same with Arod....

[dhsilv2]

I said all professional athletes. I didn't say MLB only. And from that era yes 100% it was 99%. Steroids were literally over the counter and accessible even to high school kids at the time without any parental assistance beyond they weren't exactly cheap. use today might be down as again, kids today have to at least do some Grey market stuff to get SARMs, which are also perfectly legal to buy.

Provide your evidence to support the claim you just made. Burden of proof is on you and no one else. While there may have been abuse going on to levels far further reaching than what came to light, to throw out a definitive as you have is utterly absurd and worthless without empirical evidence that can be plainly and easily cited.

He can’t - because it is not true.

Is the number 15%? 20%? 25%? Probably.

Not 99%.

LOL, 25% used something at least ONCE ever? Come on dude! My high school football team was at least 25%!

[soxfan2003]

Yes, they should make the HOF but only after Pete Rose is elected to the HOF.

As others have stated, there needs to be a special wing or just a little extra on their HOF plaques where it mentions their transgressions. Not to shame them but just to accurately portray history. Pete Rose bet on baseball and these two players did steroids. But in that area, there should be honest about the usage of amphetamines in baseball. Steroids obviously much bigger PED but they were not the first PED.

I would leave Sosa out of the HOF. Even if Bonds and Clemens were both taking small amounts of steroids years before their critics suspect, the fact of the matter is Bonds is the best steroid hitter of all time and Clemens wasn't too far behind as a pitcher.
Sosa was no Barry Bonds or Clemens.

Given the massive amount of players juicing, Bonds and Clemens both deserve to be in after having justifiably been denied entrance for years. The players with massive skeletons should be made to wait longer.

Pete Rose has waited long enough. Put him in before he is dead. Don't be cowards and put him in after he dies. If I was one of Pete Rose's children or Rose himself, I would say FU to the Hall of Fame if they didn't put me in before I died. Let the HOF look ridiculous.

[celtics543]

A guy I work with used to work in minor league baseball and said it was common knowledge that Piazza was on them. If he got in with no issues why shouldn’t the other guys? Hall of fame is already dirty, hard to keep those two out when so many others are in.

My major issue is Schilling. He’s only out because writers hate him. If personal feeling of writers matters that much then it’s a flawed system.

[dhsilv2]

I said all professional athletes. I didn't say MLB only. And from that era yes 100% it was 99%. Steroids were literally over the counter and accessible even to high school kids at the time without any parental assistance beyond they weren't exactly cheap. use today might be down as again, kids today have to at least do some Grey market stuff to get SARMs, which are also perfectly legal to buy.

Provide your evidence to support the claim you just made. Burden of proof is on you and no one else. While there may have been abuse going on to levels far further reaching than what came to light, to throw out a definitive as you have is utterly absurd and worthless without empirical evidence that can be plainly and easily cited.

Occam's razor pretty much covers this.

[chrismikayla]

It's a shame because Bonds was great before he got bigger. NO hitter has ever struck fear in opposing pitchers like Bonds did, and may not ever again.

[SkyHookFTW]

The hall has stupid moral clauses in it's BBWA voting rules. And Bonds and clemens were 100% HOFers before they juiced so it makes it complicated. I personally love Ortiz but wouldn't vote him in if Clemens and bonds can't get in.

They'll get in via the veterans committee as they let too many players in without worthy resumes.

Schilling would have gotten in this year for sure if he didn't whine to the hall asking to have his name removed from the ballot. He was only 4% away just a year ago. He's the epitome of borderline HOFer with his 216 career wins and no Cy Youngs.

He shouldn't be borderline. He should be in. He is the greatest postseason pitcher among pitchers with more than ten starts. His 11-2 record with a WHIP of 0.97 in postseason play is damn near ungodly, considering you face nothing but good teams. In his peak years, he had a W/L record of 141-81, his WAR ranks 26th all-time, he led the league in strikeouts twice, batters faced twice, walk ratio twice, wins twice, and he had a WHIP of 1.08, years which were among the most PED-fueled in history. His strikeout to walk ratio of 4.38/1 is the second-best in history among pitchers with more than 1,000 innings pitched.

[dhsilv2]

The hall has stupid moral clauses in it's BBWA voting rules. And Bonds and clemens were 100% HOFers before they juiced so it makes it complicated. I personally love Ortiz but wouldn't vote him in if Clemens and bonds can't get in.

They'll get in via the veterans committee as they let too many players in without worthy resumes.

Schilling would have gotten in this year for sure if he didn't whine to the hall asking to have his name removed from the ballot. He was only 4% away just a year ago. He's the epitome of borderline HOFer with his 216 career wins and no Cy Youngs.

He shouldn't be borderline. He should be in. He is the greatest postseason pitcher among pitchers with more than ten starts. His 11-2 record with a WHIP of 0.97 in postseason play is damn near ungodly, considering you face nothing but good teams. In his peak years, he had a W/L record of 141-81, his WAR ranks 26th all-time, he led the league in strikeouts twice, batters faced twice, walk ratio twice, wins twice, and he had a WHIP of 1.08, years which were among the most PED-fueled in history. His strikeout to walk ratio of 4.38/1 is the second-best in history among pitchers with more than 1,000 innings pitched.

Baseball is a stats game in a very weird way but that kinda is nice for this.

Baseball reference has 5 measures for the hall.

Black Ink - score 42 average hall is 40
Gray Ink - 205 average hall 185
Hall of Fame Monitor - 171 likely HOF 100
Hall of Fame Standards 46 average 50
JAWS I don't understand it to comment.

So yeah he should be in but he's not overwhelming. And it sucks to be not overwhelming in what seems like the most political of hall of fames, selected by the worst media people there are.

[SkyBill40]

I said all professional athletes. I didn't say MLB only. And from that era yes 100% it was 99%. Steroids were literally over the counter and accessible even to high school kids at the time without any parental assistance beyond they weren't exactly cheap. use today might be down as again, kids today have to at least do some Grey market stuff to get SARMs, which are also perfectly legal to buy.

Provide your evidence to support the claim you just made. Burden of proof is on you and no one else. While there may have been abuse going on to levels far further reaching than what came to light, to throw out a definitive as you have is utterly absurd and worthless without empirical evidence that can be plainly and easily cited.

Occam's razor pretty much covers this.

Actually, no, it does not. Cite your conclusive evidence. Don't deflect. You made the claim, it's your burden to prove it so.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

[dhsilv2]

Provide your evidence to support the claim you just made. Burden of proof is on you and no one else. While there may have been abuse going on to levels far further reaching than what came to light, to throw out a definitive as you have is utterly absurd and worthless without empirical evidence that can be plainly and easily cited.

Occam's razor pretty much covers this.

Actually, no, it does not. Cite your conclusive evidence. Don't deflect. You made the claim, it's your burden to prove it so.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

The idea they never used something, you're implied claim is absurd. So no. I'll stick with the most likely thing is what we should assume.

[JDR720]

Bonds and Clemens are just the scapegoats. Almost every player in their era, including the ones in the HOF, used steroids. Ortiz did too. MLB people like their made up "unwritten rules" too much.

It's basically the opposite of the NBA HOF. Where just about any player, who was an all-star caliber player, can get into the HOF if they play long enough.

[hauntedcomputer]

Only if Pete Rose goes in.

Don't clutch pearls about gambling of you're okay with juice.

[falcolombardi]

Both should be in. Bonds is the greatest player I've ever seen.

Both the MLB and Basketball HOF are the biggest jokes ever, for different reasons.

basketball hof is the best hof for those reasons imo

only hof that doesnt leave all time greats out by having absurdly high standards and recognizes other kind of contributors like internacional stars or wnba stars

although their obsesión/bias with getting every ncaa coach to ever coach into the hof is tiresome

[SkyBill40]

Occam's razor pretty much covers this.

Actually, no, it does not. Cite your conclusive evidence. Don't deflect. You made the claim, it's your burden to prove it so.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

The idea they never used something, you're implied claim is absurd. So no. I'll stick with the most likely thing is what we should assume.

So you're continuing to deflect away from your claim that 99% of professional athletes have used PED's. That's a fallacy of the worst kind and falls across several different types.

Gotcha. That claim seems TOTALLY legit.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

[dc]

It's basically the opposite of the NBA HOF. Where just about any player, who was an all-star caliber player, can get into the HOF if they play long enough.

Just to note, the NBA doesn't have a HOF.

The Naismith Basketball HOF (what you are likely thinking of) inducts players/coaches/owners/broadcasters from the NCAA game, FIBA game and women's FIBA/NCAA/WNBA game to go along with the NBA.