Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition)

[Klomp]

This sounds eerily similar:

Butler and his representatives made several efforts with Thibodeau this summer to make it clear that he was planning to head elsewhere when he hit free agency in July 2019. After Butler helped the Wolves win 47 games last season and make the playoffs for the first time since 2004, Thibodeau wasn’t ready to consider trading his star and starting over.

With no movement through the summer and training camp fast approaching, Thibodeau flew to Los Angeles for a meeting at Butler’s home on Sept. 18. That’s when Butler hit Thibodeau right between the eyes with a request to be traded. Thibodeau was resistant to the idea, believing he needed Butler on the roster to give the Wolves a chance to improve upon last season’s results and convince Taylor to keep this iteration of the team together.

Shortly after that meeting, Butler had a conversation with Taylor to get the ball rolling on an exit strategy. Taylor was more open to the idea than Thibodeau was initially and promised to pursue all avenues to grant his request, sources said. The owner told Thibodeau and Layden on Sept. 22 to be proactive in seeking out possibilities to bring to his desk, but what followed was a mind-numbing process filled with mixed messages.

Thibodeau and Layden took hard-line stances in negotiations, according to team sources who entered into the talks. Several owners reached out to Taylor directly, and while those conversations felt more productive, Taylor resisted calls to make a unilateral move.

Butler’s request put the Wolves in an awful position from a negotiating standpoint, and the perception that Thibodeau and Taylor were not on the same page only contributed to the chaotic atmosphere around the process. But the Wolves had to somehow try to wrestle a little bit of leverage away from the teams who knew that Butler returning to a locker room that was full of tension and playing for an organization he had already turned his back on was an untenable proposition.

Thibodeau and Layden made their position known: they believed Butler was a top-10 player in the league and so teams should tailor their offers accordingly. The Wolves started the season with Butler on the roster in part to show teams that they were willing to endure whatever drama came with it if the offers they received continued to be substandard in their eyes.

It took almost two full months to complete, and the organization suffered untold damage while it played out, but the Wolves can finally move forward now. No more questions about how the drama is affecting the players. No more booing of an All-Star during warmups.

(from Krawczynski's post-trade story)

[Klomp]

Jimmy took his ball and went home too.

No, we can all hate him for his off court behavior, but Jimmy played 10 of 13 games. In those games, he played hard, and he played well.

That ain’t anything close to the same as Simmons.

And I don’t think anyone views Jimmy’s behavior “positively.” But as upset as he was, as uncomfortable as the situation was for everybody, he honored his contract, showed up and played most game until Thibs found a trade.

So what it seems to come down to, is that you respect "general soreness" as a reason to miss games but don't respect someone going through mental health issues as a good enough reason. Because that's the only real significant difference is that Butler "showed up" and Simmons isn't right now.

[shrink]

Jimmy took his ball and went home too.

No, we can all hate him for his off court behavior, but Jimmy played 10 of 13 games. In those games, he played hard, and he played well.

That ain’t anything close to the same as Simmons.

And I don’t think anyone views Jimmy’s behavior “positively.” But as upset as he was, as uncomfortable as the situation was for everybody, he honored his contract, showed up and played most game until Thibs found a trade.

So what it seems to come down to, is that you respect "general soreness" as a reason to miss games but don't respect someone going through mental health issues as a good enough reason. Because that's the only real significant difference is that Butler "showed up" and Simmons isn't right now.

Showing up is a big deal. Showing up is what he signed a contract to do. And showing up is how you overcome.

First, there is no evidence Simmons has mental health issues - he has refused to go to a team or league psychologist for help (part of the reason he loses $1 mil every three games). But if (and this is a big “if” if you talk to PHI people) Simmons truly has mental health issues that are so severe that they incapacitate him from basketball activities, those things don’t just go away if he is placed in a new city. No one, not GMs or fans, factor this into his trade value one bit - the risk that he has mental health issues that will permanently prevent him from playing basketball, and that he is a $35 mil/yr franchise killer.

Second, most people often don’t understand fears. Fears are subjective and illogical, but compassionate people often try to seek understanding through empathy. “Wow, if I screwed up so badly in an important game like that, viewed all over the world, I’d be shaken up too, so I feel badly for Ben Simmons.” However, the way you react to stressors is based on your life experiences, your psychology and your biology. There are some bomb disposal guys who’s pulse never rises at work, but don’t ask them to do public speaking - it terrifies them. I saw my tough old, 275 pound mother-in-law on top of a table because she thought she saw a mouse. Ben Simmons has been playing big games since he was a teenager, and has been in the public eye long before being drafted #1. We don’t know how stressful that game was for him - we can’t get inside his head. However, we can judge him for the decisions he makes afterward. If he has mental health issues, he has refused to accept help. Meanwhile, other people face, and overcome, huge fears everyday.

[Klomp]

Showing up is a big deal. Showing up is what he signed a contract to do. And showing up is how you overcome.

First, there is no evidence Simmons has mental health issues - he has refused to go to a team or league psychologist for help (part of the reason he loses $1 mil every three games). But if (and this is a big “if” if you talk to PHI people) Simmons truly has mental health issues that are so severe that they incapacitate him from basketball activities, those things don’t just go away if he is placed in a new city. No one, not GMs or fans, factor this into his trade value one bit - the risk that he has mental health issues that will permanently prevent him from playing basketball, and that he is a $35 mil/yr franchise killer.

Second, most people often don’t understand fears. Fears are subjective and illogical, but compassionate people often try to seek understanding through empathy. “Wow, if I screwed up so badly in an important game like that, viewed all over the world, I’d be shaken up too, so I feel badly for Ben Simmons.” However, the way you react to stressors is based on your life experiences, your psychology and your biology. There are some bomb disposal guys who’s pulse never rises at work, but don’t ask them to do public speaking - it terrifies them. I saw my tough old, 275 pound mother-in-law on top of a table because she thought she saw a mouse. Ben Simmons has been playing big games since he was a teenager, and has been in the public eye long before being drafted #1. We don’t know how stressful that game was for him - we can’t get inside his head. However, we can judge him for the decisions he makes afterward. If he has mental health issues, he has refused to accept help. Meanwhile, other people face, and overcome, huge fears everyday.

If Simmons feels it's a toxic/abusive work environment caused by his coworkers, the issues absolutely could go away in a new environment.

The team has essentially mocked his issues and made light of his concerns from the beginning. Didn't Doc tell him to "man up"? Those aren't the ways you solve mental health. If it is an abusive environment in Simmons' eyes, does it make sense for him to go to the team/his abuser for help? Absolutely not.

[fattymcgee]

I definitely don't want to poo-poo the idea of Tobias Harris. One thing I value is versatility/switchability, and Harris has that ability to go between both forward positions. I would be comfortable being the third wheel in a Simmons trade even if we ended up with Harris instead of Simmons in the process.

EFFFF NOOO!!!!
You crazy? He makes $37m next year and $39m the year after. His production isn't close to that.

[shrink]

Showing up is a big deal. Showing up is what he signed a contract to do. And showing up is how you overcome.

First, there is no evidence Simmons has mental health issues - he has refused to go to a team or league psychologist for help (part of the reason he loses $1 mil every three games). But if (and this is a big “if” if you talk to PHI people) Simmons truly has mental health issues that are so severe that they incapacitate him from basketball activities, those things don’t just go away if he is placed in a new city. No one, not GMs or fans, factor this into his trade value one bit - the risk that he has mental health issues that will permanently prevent him from playing basketball, and that he is a $35 mil/yr franchise killer.

Second, most people often don’t understand fears. Fears are subjective and illogical, but compassionate people often try to seek understanding through empathy. “Wow, if I screwed up so badly in an important game like that, viewed all over the world, I’d be shaken up too, so I feel badly for Ben Simmons.” However, the way you react to stressors is based on your life experiences, your psychology and your biology. There are some bomb disposal guys who’s pulse never rises at work, but don’t ask them to do public speaking - it terrifies them. I saw my tough old, 275 pound mother-in-law on top of a table because she thought she saw a mouse. Ben Simmons has been playing big games since he was a teenager, and has been in the public eye long before being drafted #1. We don’t know how stressful that game was for him - we can’t get inside his head. However, we can judge him for the decisions he makes afterward. If he has mental health issues, he has refused to accept help. Meanwhile, other people face, and overcome, huge fears everyday.

If Simmons feels it's a toxic/abusive work environment caused by his coworkers, the issues absolutely could go away in a new environment.

The team has essentially mocked his issues and made light of his concerns from the beginning. Didn't Doc tell him to "man up"? Those aren't the ways you solve mental health. If it is an abusive environment in Simmons' eyes, does it make sense for him to go to the team/his abuser for help? Absolutely not.

This is not the way true mental health issues work.

It could be true if he doesn’t have mental health issues.

[IceManBK1]

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=1pd5sd2Uwseu83jk8ZM_aA

Only way is we convince teams like Sac or Blazers into 3 way by giving them assets like exp contracts and young talented players so they can rebuild.

Fox, Barnes two 1sts via Min to philly
Beasley, Prince, Maxey, McDaniels to Sac
Simmons and Danny Green to Min

Makes sense for everybody

Fox/thybulle/Harris/Barnes/Embiid is a championship team in East.

Maxey/Halibuton/McDaniels/Bagley/Holmes gives kings a fresh start with younger players with high upsides.

If we ship Beverly+1st for Smart we have 2 all nba defenders who can defend multiple positions.

Dlo
Smart
Edwards
Simmons
Towns

That's the pipedream lineup.

[KGdaBom]

Simmons fans give him extra trade value because of his long contract. They may be right, but I think it also makes him the riskiest contract in the league.

The NBA (and the world in general) has legal contracts so both sides can guarantee future participation from both sides of an agreement. We have contract law to enforce these deals, because these promises are critical for people and organizations to make future plans.

In the NBA, it is highly unusual for a player, even an unhappy one, to not live up to his contract. For the small subset who’s word isn’t enough, and contract law doesn’t scare them, there is always the money to force them to comply. Simmons is the first player who is committed/stubborn enough that he is willing to sacrifice all that money. So far, he has lost over $19 million dollars.

When a player has shown this type of commitment, and even money doesn’t matter, there is no way for a team to get him to play if he’s not happy. If he gets traded, and does the same stunt on the next team, NO owner will let their GM trade for him, and he becomes a $35 mil hole in your production for three more years. A team trading for Simmons will continually have to bend over backwards to make sure he is never unhappy, because he’s shown he’s the one guy who’s willing and able to launch the nuclear option.

Why is it bad to do what it takes to keep your employee happy?

We have 17 employees, and hundreds of others in the organization, and thousands of stakeholders. You need them all to be pulling in the same direction. Simmons clearly has shown he’s willing to screw over his teammates and his organization when he’s not getting things the way he wants them.

With the way that Philly treated Simmons his ill will toward that organization is justified. When Butler refused to honor his contract he didn't have a leg to stand on.

[KGdaBom]

Jimmy took his ball and went home too.

No, we can all hate him for his off court behavior, but Jimmy played 10 of 13 games. In those games, he played hard, and he played well.

That ain’t anything close to the same as Simmons.

And I don’t think anyone views Jimmy’s behavior “positively.” But as upset as he was, as uncomfortable as the situation was for everybody, he honored his contract, showed up and played most game until Thibs found a trade.

He did not honor his contract. He made an a$$ of himself and embarrassed the team. Playing most games is not honoring his contract.

[shangrila]

Bunch of arm chair psychologists around here.

[shrink]

Bunch of arm chair psychologists around here.

FWIW, I have been a little more than “arm chair” in my eclectic past, hence the screen name.

But it’s true that no one knows completely what is going on with Simmons.

[winforlose]

Why is it bad to do what it takes to keep your employee happy?

We have 17 employees, and hundreds of others in the organization, and thousands of stakeholders. You need them all to be pulling in the same direction. Simmons clearly has shown he’s willing to screw over his teammates and his organization when he’s not getting things the way he wants them.

With the way that Philly treated Simmons his ill will toward that organization is justified. When Butler refused to honor his contract he didn't have a leg to stand on.

Fill me in, what specifically did Philly do to justify this? Philly gave Simmons a max, gave him a team talented enough to win a title, and he chocked. Putting the blame where it belongs is hardly a betrayal, and vowing to sit out and keep your max money sidelined to further screw the fan base isn’t making him any friends. How in the world is Simmons the victim?

[Dewey]

We have 17 employees, and hundreds of others in the organization, and thousands of stakeholders. You need them all to be pulling in the same direction. Simmons clearly has shown he’s willing to screw over his teammates and his organization when he’s not getting things the way he wants them.

With the way that Philly treated Simmons his ill will toward that organization is justified. When Butler refused to honor his contract he didn't have a leg to stand on.

Fill me in, what specifically did Philly do to justify this? Philly gave Simmons a max, gave him a team talented enough to win a title, and he chocked. Putting the blame where it belongs is hardly a betrayal, and vowing to sit out and keep your max money sidelined to further screw the fan base isn’t making him any friends. How in the world is Simmons the victim?

Never in the history of pro sports have I ever seen a player scapegoated like Simmons…. You can think it but you never say it. It’s something the media will do because that’s their character - a team will still step in and defend the player. The 76’ers f’d up. Handle it in the off-season and move on, you never go public and highlight a player after an emotional loss.

[KGdaBom]

We have 17 employees, and hundreds of others in the organization, and thousands of stakeholders. You need them all to be pulling in the same direction. Simmons clearly has shown he’s willing to screw over his teammates and his organization when he’s not getting things the way he wants them.

With the way that Philly treated Simmons his ill will toward that organization is justified. When Butler refused to honor his contract he didn't have a leg to stand on.

Fill me in, what specifically did Philly do to justify this? Philly gave Simmons a max, gave him a team talented enough to win a title, and he chocked. Putting the blame where it belongs is hardly a betrayal, and vowing to sit out and keep your max money sidelined to further screw the fan base isn’t making him any friends. How in the world is Simmons the victim?

Philly scored more points than Atlanta with Simmons on the floor 6 out of the 7 games. In the other they tied. Philly did not lose because of Simmons. He was part of the solution not part of the problem yet he was blamed/thrown under the bus. How unprofessional is that? The 76ers have nobody to blame but themselves for Simmons animosity toward the organization.

Only one C in choked.

[shrink]

With the way that Philly treated Simmons his ill will toward that organization is justified. When Butler refused to honor his contract he didn't have a leg to stand on.

Fill me in, what specifically did Philly do to justify this? Philly gave Simmons a max, gave him a team talented enough to win a title, and he chocked. Putting the blame where it belongs is hardly a betrayal, and vowing to sit out and keep your max money sidelined to further screw the fan base isn’t making him any friends. How in the world is Simmons the victim?

Philly scored more points than Atlanta with Simmons on the floor 6 out of the 7 games. In the other they tied. Philly did not lose because of Simmons. He was part of the solution not part of the problem yet he was blamed/thrown under the bus. How unprofessional is that? The 76ers have nobody to blame but themselves for Simmons animosity toward the organization.

Only one C in choked.

I agree with you that the PHI media went after Simmons, and Doc and Embiid threw him under the bus immediately after the game.

However, Ben Simmons is an adult, and he is responsible for his choices. Doc and Embiid later tried to call Simmons, and he refused to take their calls. They tried to go apologize in person, which Simmons refused for a long time, telling no teammates should show up, then eventually told them he was not playing another game. Every day he doesn’t show up and honor his contract is a choice he is making, screwing over his teammates, his organization, and their fans.

PHI handled the loss poorly - I agree. But Simmons response is like blowing up a police precinct every day because nine months ago you got an unfair parking ticket that made you feel bad.

[breatnach]

I think we get used as a intermediary team in a Harden deal

MIN in: Simmons, Harris
MIN out: Prince, Beverley, Beasley, FRP

BKN in: Prince, Beverley, Beasley, Curry, FRPs
BNN out: Harden, Harris

PHI in: Harden
PHI out: Simmons, Curry, FRPs

Wolves and Sixers probably send a pick or two each to Brooklyn. Philly is getting the best player by far and Brooklyn doesn't want Simmons when they are already dealing with the headache called Kyrie. Harden probably doesn't want to come here, but if he demands to go to PHI to be reunited with Morey, then we might be one of the few teams with the pieces that BKN wants (veteran depth on moveable contracts). They also get off of Harris' contract, who is getting $18m for his 11 PPG and will hinder them chasing after another star for KD. They would have lots of cap space and some picks from MIN & PHI to make more moves.

[KGdaBom]

Fill me in, what specifically did Philly do to justify this? Philly gave Simmons a max, gave him a team talented enough to win a title, and he chocked. Putting the blame where it belongs is hardly a betrayal, and vowing to sit out and keep your max money sidelined to further screw the fan base isn’t making him any friends. How in the world is Simmons the victim?

Philly scored more points than Atlanta with Simmons on the floor 6 out of the 7 games. In the other they tied. Philly did not lose because of Simmons. He was part of the solution not part of the problem yet he was blamed/thrown under the bus. How unprofessional is that? The 76ers have nobody to blame but themselves for Simmons animosity toward the organization.

Only one C in choked.

I agree with you that the PHI media went after Simmons, and Doc and Embiid threw him under the bus immediately after the game.

However, Ben Simmons is an adult, and he is responsible for his choices. Doc and Embiid later tried to call Simmons, and he refused to take their calls. They tried to go apologize in person, which Simmons refused for a long time, telling no teammates should show up, then eventually told them he was not playing another game. Every day he doesn’t show up and honor his contract is a choice he is making, screwing over his teammates, his organization, and their fans.

PHI handled the loss poorly - I agree. But Simmons response is like blowing up a police precinct every day because nine months ago you got an unfair parking ticket that made you feel bad.

I can't say that Simmons response to his treatment is not justified. He's so hurt by the actions of the organization that I'm told he has already given up $19million in salary. He's willing to take that loss out of principle.

I'm a person who believes in forgiveness and 2nd chances. I would have at least listened to the apologies. However, sometimes part of being a great athlete is being resolute. You don't acquiesce to the opposition which is what the 76ers organization is to him at this point.

[D1SGRUNTL3D]

I was for BS last summer when Philly should’ve traded him..but I’m also not a fan of trading our insane depth at forward for a 38M/yr headache that can’t shoot.

Am I the only one? I actually like how our team is assembled for the first time in forever. Not really keen on blowing it up. Plus there’s continuity amongst the team.

[Slim Tubby]

I think we get used as a intermediary team in a Harden deal

MIN in: Simmons, Harris
MIN out: Prince, Beverley, Beasley, FRP

BKN in: Prince, Beverley, Beasley, Curry, FRPs
BNN out: Harden, Harris

PHI in: Harden
PHI out: Simmons, Curry, FRPs

Wolves and Sixers probably send a pick or two each to Brooklyn. Philly is getting the best player by far and Brooklyn doesn't want Simmons when they are already dealing with the headache called Kyrie. Harden probably doesn't want to come here, but if he demands to go to PHI to be reunited with Morey, then we might be one of the few teams with the pieces that BKN wants (veteran depth on moveable contracts). They also get off of Harris' contract, who is getting $18m for his 11 PPG and will hinder them chasing after another star for KD. They would have lots of cap space and some picks from MIN & PHI to make more moves.

You have MIN sending out $44M in contracts and receiving close to $73M in return. Not happening...and I want nothing to do with Harris and his contract anyways.

[winforlose]

Free on xfinity and Netflix right now.

I have both. Thank you.

Great! Come back and thank us when you're done. Another great line to watch for is "The Big Toe".

Just watched it. Not really my kind of humor, but did have some good lines mixed in. I give it a 5/10.