Simons vs Lillard?

[Sinobas]

Simons is the same age as Dame was as a rookie. Simons is a more efficient scorer....I think because he forces it less.

I'm afraid if we pair Dame with Simons it'll be Dame/CJ all over again.

[Roy The Natural]

I was of a similar opinion, and while I dont think he is close to Dame he isnt Lou.

I like a taller, overall better Jason Terry (Albeit in todays NBA Terry might be a 22ppg type guy IMO)

I think he's a more natural passer than Jason Terry. Jason Terry was more CJ-esque with his tunnel vision. Simons is not Chris Paul, but he tends to make the right read and the good pass a lot of the time and keeps his head on a swivel enough to set other guys up.

Interestingly, he might be closest offensively to his coach. Simons has just average-ish handles and doesn't get to the rim super well. But he's a dynamite shooter and has a top 5 floater in the league. At his age, I wouldn't rule out another seismic leap forward. Small improvements on his handles and a bit more craftiness and strength getting to the rim would vault him into a true star. I think both are attainable.

My only big worry currently for him offensively is getting to a better FTr to buoy his off-nights shooting. However, at his age, it's not out of the question that he takes more significant steps forward.

Really disagree w/ this take but to each their own.

Terry was a 7APG guy in ATL. Even in DAL he was a better passer than Ant.

And Billups had a much bigger frame, and would regularily bully guys in the post + a meh 3PT shot.

Billups was a fantastic shooter for the era, that's a way off-base memory of yours. He was basically a 40% from 3 shooter on good (for the era) volume. Was pretty bad at getting to the rim. I don't remember him posting up much either. Maybe I'm not remembering correctly and I'm having trouble locating post up statistics. I don't remember him regularly posting up though. I remember him as a perimeter scorer and primarily scoring via jumpshot. I distinctly remember Billups playing much more like a poor man's Lillard on offense.

Jason Terry had one year at 6+ assists playing 38 minutes a game. His assist percentage over the prime of his career was a CJ-esque 24%. CJ's was about 22.5% over the last 3 years. Simons is currently sitting at almost 22% despite averaging 2 assists a game for 60% of the season likely due to playing with a glut of other high/moderate USG% guards. Again, hard to find splits for ast% since January, but needless to say he's over doubled his output since those first 30 games and his assist% is likely to climb as the season progresses. I feel like CJ is a more apt comparison for Terry, but that's just my evaluation of the players.

I get that Simons isn't perfect and isn't great at everything on offense, and especially defense. However, I think he's flashing more than just "really good 6th man" offensively. It would be one thing if it was only his CJ level shooting that was popping. But his floater game is the best I've seen in some time. It's Conley level... at 22 years old. He may have the best floater in the league right now, if not, it's very close. That's a MASSIVE weapon in itself. that combined with his shooting will open the rim up and raise his FTr most likely if/when he learns a bit more craftiness.

[Roy The Natural]

Simons is the same age as Dame was as a rookie. Simons is a more efficient scorer....I think because he forces it less.

I'm afraid if we pair Dame with Simons it'll be Dame/CJ all over again.

This is probably a legitimate fear. However, I think it's worth a year.... I don't even know 100% that Lillard is actually the same Lillard anymore. I believe it's primarily his injury that killed him this year, but I'm not going to pretend there isn't some form of age fall-off involved.

Simons has taken a big-enough leap this year, at a young enough age to believe that there are more leaps coming. They may come, or they may not. However, I wouldn't sell on him yet. Not unless you're getting a true bonafide all-star player at wing position.

[Wizenheimer]

Ant is not short at all for a PG he's close to 6'5" and long. Billups will coach him into a fine defender. His quickness, handle, shot, hops, and ability to manipulate a defense range from excellent to elite.

6'5? wut?

He was measured as 6'2.25 at the draft combine. I know there is all kinds of fictional growth among young NBA plaers but it doesn't happen nearly as often as people claim, and a 6'2.25 guy isn't going to become 6'5. Maybe 6'3 or in a really rare case, 6.3.5

and it sure looks like he has some defensive fiction to go with the growth fiction. Among the rotational players Portland has used this season Ant is last, 16th in defensive rating. In defensive winshares, which is a cumulative stat, Justice Winslow has already matched Ant after 5 games. And in DefBPM, out of those 16 rotational players, Ant is 15th

if he was even average at defense, he'd rank a lot higher in at least one of those defensive metrics

I don't think Ant is a good defender or even necessarily average. However, winshares and DRtg are absolute dumpster metrics for defense.

yes, for the most part. I think the most revealing gauge of defensive rating is whether or not a player's rating is better than his team's rating. Ant's is 4 points worse. As for winshares, since it's a cumulative stat you run into apples and oranges sometimes. But it's worth noting that Winslow, in 155 minutes, has matched Ant in DWS when Ant has nearly 10 times Winslow's minutes. He's also at -2.5 in DBPM

I don't think Ant is good at defense, nor do I think defensive stats are the end-all be-all on defense. I just thought I'd push back against some the massive Ant hype right now. It's deserved on offense, but calling Ant a good defender is kind of loopy

[monopoman]

Early on, offensively dame was better imo, he started that whole year and made himself known early. To anfernee’s credit he also was much younger as a rookie so there was probably more of an adjustment period. Anfernee this season isn’t far behind dame as a rookie, probably a bit less consistent but nonetheless similar numbers. Passing advantage goes to dame along with getting to the line. Efficiency favors anf slightly maybe due to shot selection

As wjun stated Defensively anfernee shows more skill on the defensive end. Even though he’s not a lock down defender he’s faster and seems to try more on that end of the court which gives him an edge. Really as a young player dame was zero defense. Anf shows potential on d with his speed and quickness, he’s short but seems like he has the physical attributes to be a defensive pain in the butt

Ant has probably benefited greatly learning from CJ and Lillard. Meanwhile Lillard was shoved into a starting role on day 1 and really had no mentors. He said he was surprised when Aldridge really didn't reach out to him to try to help him along when he was a rookie or 2nd year player.

You can see that Ant is using a lot of the moves CJ and Lillard do, and I have a feeling they were more than willing to show him things in practice.

I have a feeling that he was in an ideal situation here to really develop his game, a superstar that is likely willing to help a younger player which not every team has. On top of that a superstar that also plays a similar type of game, so that much of what he was explaining or showing him would transfer over.

This isn't a case of Shaq trying to show Anfernee how to play or something.

[Norm2953]

In my mind, Simons is a great fit in Portland for he's going to be Chauncey's guy. It must have
ruffled Dame that when Kyrie Irving came to town a while ago, Chauncey was quoted as saying
Kyrie was the most skilled PG in the league.

Assuming Dame recovers from his surgery, its got to be unsettling to him how far Anfernee has
come since late December with consistent PT. Portland is playing their best ball of the season
with offense sets with Nurk/Simons P/R and Nurk looking to set up more down low instead of
standing up high to pass the ball. It's no mistake Portland is playing better for the two guards
guilty of playing iso/hero ball are not playing for Portland and one wonders if Portland flipped
Dame for one of John Collins, Pascal Siakum, Jason Brown (along with picks/pick swaps) if
they would be better off.

How I'd love to see Portland with a true PF/C addition to help Nurk, two lottery picks to add
to what they have right now.

[BlazersBroncos]

In my mind, Simons is a great fit in Portland for he's going to be Chauncey's guy. It must have
ruffled Dame that when Kyrie Irving came to town a while ago, Chauncey was quoted as saying
Kyrie was the most skilled PG in the league.

Assuming Dame recovers from his surgery, its got to be unsettling to him how far Anfernee has
come since late December with consistent PT. Portland is playing their best ball of the season
with offense sets with Nurk/Simons P/R and Nurk looking to set up more down low instead of
standing up high to pass the ball. It's no mistake Portland is playing better for the two guards
guilty of playing iso/hero ball are not playing for Portland and one wonders if Portland flipped
Dame for one of John Collins, Pascal Siakum, Jason Brown (along with picks/pick swaps) if
they would be better off.

How I'd love to see Portland with a true PF/C addition to help Nurk, two lottery picks to add
to what they have right now.

Dame is worth more than Collins and Pascal, and neither team really would go out of their way to add a PG IMO.

T&T board had a nice idea that had us turning Bledsoe, Keon and 8 into Collins. That would be the type of deal we look for this offseason IMO.

[DusterBuster]

In my mind, Simons is a great fit in Portland for he's going to be Chauncey's guy. It must have
ruffled Dame that when Kyrie Irving came to town a while ago, Chauncey was quoted as saying
Kyrie was the most skilled PG in the league.

Assuming Dame recovers from his surgery, its got to be unsettling to him how far Anfernee has
come since late December with consistent PT. Portland is playing their best ball of the season
with offense sets with Nurk/Simons P/R and Nurk looking to set up more down low instead of
standing up high to pass the ball. It's no mistake Portland is playing better for the two guards
guilty of playing iso/hero ball are not playing for Portland and one wonders if Portland flipped
Dame for one of John Collins, Pascal Siakum, Jason Brown (along with picks/pick swaps) if
they would be better off.

How I'd love to see Portland with a true PF/C addition to help Nurk, two lottery picks to add
to what they have right now.

I've always wondered, why do you format your posts like that? No offense intended, just genuinely curious.

[The Sebastian Express]

In my mind, Simons is a great fit in Portland for he's going to be Chauncey's guy. It must have
ruffled Dame that when Kyrie Irving came to town a while ago, Chauncey was quoted as saying
Kyrie was the most skilled PG in the league.

Assuming Dame recovers from his surgery, its got to be unsettling to him how far Anfernee has
come since late December with consistent PT. Portland is playing their best ball of the season
with offense sets with Nurk/Simons P/R and Nurk looking to set up more down low instead of
standing up high to pass the ball. It's no mistake Portland is playing better for the two guards
guilty of playing iso/hero ball are not playing for Portland and one wonders if Portland flipped
Dame for one of John Collins, Pascal Siakum, Jason Brown (along with picks/pick swaps) if
they would be better off.

How I'd love to see Portland with a true PF/C addition to help Nurk, two lottery picks to add
to what they have right now.

Why would it be unsettling for him? Dame is quoted the year Ant got drafted that he sees Ant as the future, the young buck that'll over when he's ready to retire or he's at the end of his career.

And why would it ruffle Dame? Most skilled doesn't equate best. Kyrie -is- the most skilled. He's got perhaps the best handles in NBA history, he's a good three point shooter, his ability to drive and finish is crazy. The problem with Kyrie is he's a terrible leader and he lets his team down a lot, he's very selfish. Which is why he isn't the best in the league.

But he is pure skill and entertainment when he plays.

[Norm2953]

Those NBA players are all about slights, anything to get themselves motivated. Dame has used
Sacramento passing on him in the 2012 draft to really put up big numbers against them.

I was just thinking off the top of my head for I remember so long ago, B-Roy wanting a big body
to work with LA to protect the basket. He wanted a Rony Turiaf type of player and Portland
could still use such a player. Portland has needed replacements for Nic and LA ever since LA
left. Lot's of backup center types in this years draft in the mid lottery.

[Sinobas]

What if you could a trade like Lillard and Little to the Celtics for Jayson Tatum. When we have Simons, Hart, and Tatum starting 1-3, and our roster would be on a similar timeline age wise. We also avoid paying old Lillard a supermax.

[Wizenheimer]

What if you could a trade like Lillard and Little to the Celtics for Jayson Tatum. When we have Simons, Hart, and Tatum starting 1-3, and our roster would be on a similar timeline age wise. We also avoid paying old Lillard a supermax.

if Portland had Tatum would you trade him for Dame?

[wjun15]

What if you could a trade like Lillard and Little to the Celtics for Jayson Tatum. When we have Simons, Hart, and Tatum starting 1-3, and our roster would be on a similar timeline age wise. We also avoid paying old Lillard a supermax.

if Portland had Tatum would you trade him for Dame?

definitely not. next 10 years vs 3 years boston would be foolish to trade Tatum.

[Sinobas]

What if you could a trade like Lillard and Little to the Celtics for Jayson Tatum. When we have Simons, Hart, and Tatum starting 1-3, and our roster would be on a similar timeline age wise. We also avoid paying old Lillard a supermax.

if Portland had Tatum would you trade him for Dame?

No, because I'm ready to move on from Dame, and Tatum is much more in line with the rest of our roster. But Dame is considered a top 10 player when healthy, and I've never seen Tatum on a top 10 list. A team might be willing to give up younger pieces if they are in "win now" mode, like how the Celtics traded for an aging Ray Allen.

[DusterBuster]

You aren’t getting Tatum for Dame… and I’m not even a big Tatum guy. I think you can get Brown and maybe a few other assets for Dame tho if they decide to break it up. Brown would be a great fit here.

Guys I have on my list for who I’d trade Dame for (who also might potentially be available for him)…

Jalen Brown
Donovan Mitchell (or Gobert… whichever the Jazz decide to move if they are forced to)
Karl-Anthony Towns (very unlikely)
Zach LaVine (very very very unlikely)
Top 4 2022 Pick (only team that may do that is the Knicks… maybe, probably not)

So yeah, pretty short list.

I don't have a clear idea of where the Celtics stand with Brown. Some rumblings they don't think the pairing will work with Tatum long-term... but who knows.

The other, I think probably a bit more realistic option even than Brown would be Mitchell. You can usually pin-point potential trades based on ancillary things... who's in the FO, what have players said, league connections, etc. In this regard, Utah and Portland already have a LOT of connections...

The Ainge Connection: Obviously Ainge is a Portland native. It's no question he keeps tabs on the Blazers still. If Mitchell were to ask out, I think Ainge would covet getting Dame in return for him. Dame and Gorbert aren't that far off in age (Dame 31, Gobert 29)... so their timelines match nicely, and losing Mitchell but getting Dame would mean the Jazz won't be taking a step back.

The Dame/Utah Connection: Dame has made no secret that he has a ton of love for Utah and would like to play for the Jazz if he ever got traded from Portland. He's Ogden's golden child. Getting Dame would be a huge PR and marketing win for the Jazz franchise... a month worth of great stories in what would otherwise be a pretty trying time with one of their two stars demanding out.

Recent Trade Connection: Both teams made a deadline deal this year, so discussions have already happened very recently and the teams are clearly open to working with one another. This is underrated, but teams do have a tendency to work with teams that they've had past good relationships with. Even with the injury, Ingles was a HUGE fan favorite in Utah, so that was still probably an emotional trade on their end. Assuming that trade went down smoothly and the Blazers are good support for Ingles' recovery, that will be a lot of goodwill built up by the Blazers for future trade discussions.

I just think there's a lot there that makes sense for a Mitchell / Dame trade ... should Mitchell ask out. Obviously, the Jazz need to really falter in the playoffs this year first, but if they do, I think the possibility of a Mitchell trade skyrockets. The interview he gave to Chris Haynes really shouldn't have given Jazz fans much confidence. He was pretty non-committal about his future and didn't go out of his way to disprove anything - he actually flat out confirmed he and Gobert really don't get along. Between that, another quick playoff exit, and seeing what Simmons did to the Sixers (asking out with plenty of years left on his max deal)... I think he would go to management with the trade request.

[BNM]

I was of a similar opinion, and while I dont think he is close to Dame he isnt Lou.

I like a taller, overall better Jason Terry (Albeit in todays NBA Terry might be a 22ppg type guy IMO)

I think he's a more natural passer than Jason Terry. Jason Terry was more CJ-esque with his tunnel vision. Simons is not Chris Paul, but he tends to make the right read and the good pass a lot of the time and keeps his head on a swivel enough to set other guys up.

Interestingly, he might be closest offensively to his coach. Simons has just average-ish handles and doesn't get to the rim super well. But he's a dynamite shooter and has a top 5 floater in the league. At his age, I wouldn't rule out another seismic leap forward. Small improvements on his handles and a bit more craftiness and strength getting to the rim would vault him into a true star. I think both are attainable.

My only big worry currently for him offensively is getting to a better FTr to buoy his off-nights shooting. However, at his age, it's not out of the question that he takes more significant steps forward.

Really disagree w/ this take but to each their own.

Terry was a 7APG guy in ATL. Even in DAL he was a better passer than Ant.

And Billups had a much bigger frame, and would regularily bully guys in the post + a meh 3PT shot.

Terry only averaged above 5.7 apg once in his in his 19-year NBA career. That was the 7.4 apg he averaged in ATL at a 25-year old starting PG. The sample size is small, but in the 22 starts since January 1, Simons has averaged 6.1 apg at the age of 22. Again, small sample size, but it's the only time Simons has been a regular starting PG. At the age of 22, Terry was averaging 4.8 apg, and as mentioned he only topped Ant's recent 6.1 apg once in his very long career.

Terry ended up averaging 3.8 apg over his career, but over half of that was as a SG. I could see Ant meeting, or exceeding, that if he plays a comparable number of games at PG as Terry did.

I don't buy the Billups comp, due too different build and defensive ability, but he was not a meh 3-point shooter. Even with hugely increased reliance on the 3-point shot since Billups' prime, he is still 20th on the career regular season 3FG list and 14th on the playoff 3FG list. He also shot over .400 from 3-point range five times in his career and ended up at .387. Those numbers still hold up well, but were outstanding for the era in which he played.

[BlazersBroncos]

The other, I think probably a bit more realistic option even than Brown would be Mitchell. You can usually pin-point potential trades based on ancillary things... who's in the FO, what have players said, league connections, etc. In this regard, Utah and Portland already have a LOT of connections...

The Ainge Connection: Obviously Ainge is a Portland native. It's no question he keeps tabs on the Blazers still. If Mitchell were to ask out, I think Ainge would covet getting Dame in return for him. Dame and Gorbert aren't that far off in age (Dame 31, Gobert 29)... so their timelines match nicely, and losing Mitchell but getting Dame would mean the Jazz won't be taking a step back.

The Dame/Utah Connection: Dame has made no secret that he has a ton of love for Utah and would like to play for the Jazz if he ever got traded from Portland. He's Ogden's golden child. Getting Dame would be a huge PR and marketing win for the Jazz franchise... a month worth of great stories in what would otherwise be a pretty trying time with one of their two stars demanding out.

Recent Trade Connection: Both teams made a deadline deal this year, so discussions have already happened very recently and the teams are clearly open to working with one another. This is underrated, but teams do have a tendency to work with teams that they've had past good relationships with. Even with the injury, Ingles was a HUGE fan favorite in Utah, so that was still probably an emotional trade on their end. Assuming that trade went down smoothly and the Blazers are good support for Ingles' recovery, that will be a lot of goodwill built up by the Blazers for future trade discussions.

I just think there's a lot there that makes sense for a Mitchell / Dame trade ... should Mitchell ask out. Obviously, the Jazz need to really falter in the playoffs this year first, but if they do, I think the possibility of a Mitchell trade skyrockets. The interview he gave to Chris Haynes really shouldn't have given Jazz fans much confidence. He was pretty non-committal about his future and didn't go out of his way to disprove anything - he actually flat out confirmed he and Gobert really don't get along. Between that, another quick playoff exit, and seeing what Simmons did to the Sixers (asking out with plenty of years left on his max deal)... I think he would go to management with the trade request.

Ya, I think this scenario is one of the only ones I could see realistically playing out. I would even add to the trade personally as the age gap is pretty significant.

I think Mitchell and Chauncey would mesh really well too. And Dame in Utah with the storyline around it would make the Jazz just about every Blazer fans 2nd favorite team (Which seems so crazy after those insane Malone / Stockton fights in the late 90's)

[Norm2953]

Likely a Dame/Mitchell trade would require incentive from Portland but think it more likely a trade
to the east is going to happen.

Boston, Toronto and NY are all going to be looking up at the Sixers and Nets with the Knicks the most
likely candidate. Something built around RJ Barrett and the Knicks lottery pick being the most
important pieces for Portland.

[The Sebastian Express]

Do not know why you would want to trade a better player for someone who's going to have the same contract issues, who already has rumblings that he may want to leave a successful team to go east, let alone add incentive on top of it.

[DusterBuster]

Holy cow... somehow I was today years old when I realized Donovan Mitchell is only 6'1" and smaller than Dame...

I still think that idea is a realistic scenario if Mitchell asks out since he fits with the rest of the core's timeline a lot better... but... considerably less interested in it knowing that now.

My preference in a perfect world would still be getting Jalen Brown for Dame.