HeartBreakKid wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:HeartBreakKid wrote:
The Warriors were underrated this year because they did not do well last year with a similar roster and the same coach.
Putting aside from the fact that the team was clearly playing very differently in the Oubre/Wiseman era, the bigger issue I have with your statement is this idea that the coach has some static impact on his team.
When a team improves as a result of player development - which includes training players on how to play within the team's schemes - that's precisely what a coach and his staff are trying to do over time. Hence, while I would argue that basically all of us underestimated Kerr because we didn't expect this sort of player development, you're giving the impression that you underestimated Kerr because it didn't occur to you that a coach could develop his players.
I'm skeptical you actually believe this.
Or maybe the players just got better, independent of our white savior Steve Kerr. I'm a little tired of the whole "oh this guy is only good cause this guy coached him" thing. Players train on their own and improve on their own. Steve Kerr is not their personal trainer, you're saying he did something he did not do.
The premise is still flawed. You're trying to say "you thought the Warriors wouldn't be that good this season therefore Kerr is underrated" - but the entire basis for why people thought the Warriors were not going to be good this year was because they weren't very good last year...there's a logic chain there that is broken.
You could just as easily say that Kerr underachieved with his team last year and that the Warriors are more talented than we thought (which is actually true, they are better than we thought).
I mean the real reason why people thought the Warriors wouldn't be good is because the core players are in their 30s and one of them was injured (Klay). Two of their starters Poole and Wiggins improved, people seldom take into account improvement from non-stars. Jordan Poole did not improve because Steve Kerr trained him, he improved because he is 22 years old.
And this also goes back that none of this is even relevant to "Steve Kerr is not underrated". Steve Kerr has been cited as one of the best coaches in the league every year since he has been coaching....that's not even hyperbole, literally since his first year.
Saying Steve Kerr is underrated is like saying Kobe Bryant is underrated. What's next, we're going to start saying old, rich white guys have it the hardest in America? Let's save the underrated arguments for coaches who are actually overlooked and seldom praised - which are most coaches.
"Did you think the Warriors would be that good this year" - did you think the Grizzlies, Cavs and Bulls would be as good as they are? Do they have top ten all time coaches as well?
Whoa.
So first:
You're not giving a basketball explanation when you say "or maybe the players just got better". You're saying "whatever happened with the basketball, let's assume it had absolutely nothing to do with the coaching staff who are paid to help players get better". You're not giving any answer to how it actually happened - your explanation is completely devoid of basketball insight - you just giving a simple hand-waving argument and saying "Case closed!" while at the same time alleging that those who are actually thinking about basketball have some cynical, racial motivation.
To be clear, while you seem to think I'm saying the same thing in reverse, I'm absolutely not. I'm looking at how the Warriors have improved, and asking myself what the likely role each employee played in that total improvement. The players who improve always, always, ALWAYS deserve credit...but that doesn't mean that the coaches don't.
The thing that's specifically interesting about the Warriors is that they play quite differently from anyone else in the NBA, and so we need to ask ourselves how they are getting their players to master the unique skillsets that only the Warriors really need these guys to play. And here's the thing:
If it turns out that it's so easy to learn how to play the GS way that anyone can figure it out without the help of direct coaching...then that actually goes right back to the person who first set up the schemes, which is the head coach, Steve Kerr.
Let's note specifically though that this is kind of the opposite of what is typically allege about motion offenses. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen people say "Yeah, but they need smart players, which means it's harder to build around compared to heliocentric offenses that really only require 1 brain to be on the court." Not saying this was ever my perspective, but I think people should understand that if we're switching from a mindset of "Hard to train players on this" to "Players can figure it out themselves", then this makes it that much smarter to play motion offense in general, and it's an indication that the rest of the NBA should be doing more of it.
Second: Your use of "white savior" here is utterly ridiculous and tells us that you're thinking about this stuff not simply in terms of "Either Person X or Person Y deserves credit" (which is too simple-minded to yield real basketball insight) but based on assuming that you can use a coarse racial lens to understand what's going on in the mind of people who see things differently from you. While considering the racial lens in general makes sense in any context in our society, it becomes a horrible approach when you bypass actual analysis of the subject at hand (basketball) and choose a cynical caricature as a reason to ignore other people.
For the longest time I've said that I think Kerr did a horrible job as the GM of the Suns, and as I alluded to my post above I thought the Warriors should have hired Gentry rather than Kerr. The esteem with which I see Kerr's coaching performance in the time since isn't because I'm looking for a white guy to champion, but because I saw the drastic transformation of the team when he took over, and now because I've seen how the team is able to develop its role players so effectively within the schemes they have in place.
And yes that happened in his first year. When a coach comes in, changes how everything works, and the team goes from a 1st round exit to champs, that's what happens.
And to be clear: None of this means Kerr is my COY this year. Wouldn't be in my Top 3 at the moment in fact, because there are many impressive candidates. But yes, the way his role players have become as valuable as they have, while the players themselves deserve credit, and so do others on the staff, the head coach deserves credit too.
Re: "saying he's underrated is like saying Kobe is underrated". Perhaps, but the fact remains that if Kerr's teams overperform what you would predict, due to stuff happening in their ecosystem that you're not even looking for, you're literally underrating him. While I understand that you're thinking of "underrated" from a perspective of "Is this guy acknowledged to be great? Yes? Then he's getting plenty of love", that's not how to think about this stuff if you're wanting to really think about this stuff for yourself.
I have repeatedly underrated Kerr - even as I've been seen as one of the people highest on him - because he's been able to do things I did not realize he could do. In the end, that's what's real.
(Re: Top 10 all-time coaches Grizzlies, Cavs, Bulls. Stature like that comes with time, so obviously none of those guys are in those conversations. I would rank Jenkins ahead of Kerr in my COY to be clear, and I've been impressed by Donovan since his Florida days. I do think all 3 need to actually have some great all-season success before we get too excited, and while Jenkins seems poised for this, the other two are less clear. With Bickerstaff in Cleveland I'm super-excited for them going forward, but they have a long way to do. With Donovan in Chicago, the sad truth is that they may never actually be anything but a 1st round exit...which is about what was expected from them before the season.)
On Poole & Wiggins, I can't help but not that you don't even try to address why Wiggins got better. You're literally addressing only what you see as the simple answer on one of them, and then blowing right past the more interesting example that you yourself brought up.
Last:
To be clear, I do think that traditionally white coaches have had an easier time getting executive/media/fan respect than Black coaches and I don't want to come off like I don't think that's a thing. When I talk about taking issue with Gentry being Kerr's assistant, back when that happened, I brought up the racial concern myself.
But as real of a phenomenon as that is, in the end every individual is an individual. I've been quite critical of plenty of white coaches - didn't think Thibs should have even gotten much hype last year, think Bud is an absurdly rigid coach, and the nicest thing I can say about Nash's performance in Brooklyn is that I don't think bringing in a more experience coach makes sense when everyone in the organization kowtows to the diva superstars who don't actually want the coach to coach. Kerr however, has impressed me.
And of course, that not unrelated to the fact that the Warriors have impressed me so much as they've had the most dominant run since the Jordan Bulls. I've said repeatedly that I actually think every long-time member of the Warriors - Curry, Thompson, Green, Iguodala, and the coaches - are underrated due to a complicated interaction of default expectations and specific events that have left much of the smart basketball fans thinking about this most winning of teams as if they've been a disappointment.
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