Is Pau Gasol a top 50 player all-time?

[Stalwart]

Malone Duncan Garnett durk AD Barkley rodman mchale Giannis Have a really strong case over Pau at his position. Elvin hayes and c Webb have an argument as well.

Hayes has no argument

Why not? He put up better numbers and had a more successful career. How does he have no case?

[JN61]

I've got him in the 7-11 tier at Power Forward, which probably puts him borderline Top 50 All Time. pWS & pWS/48 are Five Season Peak and cWS & cWS/48 are career totals...

01 Duncan (pWS: 71.8 | pWS/48: .239 | cWS: 206.4 | cWS/48: .209 | 5 RNGZ)

02 Dirk (pWS: 77.3 | pWS/48: .248 | cWS: 206.3 | cWS/48: .193 | 1 RNGZ)
03 Garnett (pWS: 77.7 | pWS/48: .236 | cWS: 191.4 | cWS/48: .182 | 1 RNGZ)
04 Giannis (pWS: 60.6 | pWS/48: .258 | cWS: 87.5 | cWS/48: .197 | 1 RNGZ)
05 Barkley (pWS: 75.5 | pWS/48: .249 | cWS: 177.2 | cWS/48: .216 | 0 RNGZ)
06 Mailman (pWS: 73.1 | pWS/48: .252 | cWS: 234.5 | cWS/48: .205 | 0 RNGZ)

07 Pettit (pWS: 63.9 | pWS/48: .222 | cWS: 136.0 | cWS/48: .213 | 1 RNGZ)
08 Dolph (pWS: 64.2 | pWS/48: .233 | cWS: 142.4 | cWS/48: .192 | 1 RNGZ)
09 Gasol (pWS: 56.4 | pWS/48: .205 | cWS: 144.1 | cWS/48: .169 | 2 RNGZ)
10 McHale (pWS: 57.5 | pWS/48: .211 | cWS: 113.0 | cWS/48: .180 | 3 RNGZ)
11 Davis (pWS: 55.4 | pWS/48: .224 | cWS: 91.3 | cWS/48: .211 | 1 RNGZ)

You can't compare win shares like this between eras.

[Stalwart]

So you believe all Spurs fans are as biased as a few posters here that are dedicated Kobe fans? I fail to see your point, are you suggesting that I find Gasol valuable because I'm a Spurs fan?

Only Spurs fans criticize Kobe fans in this thread... which should tell you all you need to know.

As a Laker fan, I'll say:

No player-fan base has been more toxic to quality basketball thought that the cult of personality that is Kobe fandom, and if you imagine any opponent fanbase is the one being unreasonable, 99% of the time you're wrong...and you can see it right in this thread.

It's completely find not to have Gasol in one's Top 50, but anyone who turns their nose up at Gasol while claiming to be a Laker fan needs to check themselves. Lakers don't get those last two Kobe titles without Gasol. Kobe was the best player on the team no doubt, and a worthy MVP player... but Gasol was huge for the team.

Who is doing that? You guys are trying to put him in the top 50 on par with Kevin Mchale and Charles Barkley. Meanwhile you're turning your noses up at Chris Webber, Elvin Hayes, Dennis Rodman, ect. Laker fans love Pau Gasol but they are also aware of the anti-Kobe fans agenda to pump him up into a mini Shaq.

Its the anti-Kobe fans who are the most toxic. By far. Them and the Lebron fans. Tim Duncan fans not far behind(jk 70sfan. Kinda).

[JN61]

Well, I can not agree with placeing Pau Gasol over Kevin McHale, Chris Webber or Anthony Davis.

Webber was a bonafide #1 option for a time. Even though he wasn't among the best #1s we've seen in the league, he still had the ability to be a bus driver. Pau couldn't handle that smoke, i.e., he was a bus rider.

McHale: soxfan2003 did a good job explaining why.

Davis: AD is a #1B to #2 option. Pau was a #2 to #3 option.

Nothing like Lakers fans putting down Bryant's teammates to perk up his resume.

[70sFan]

Only Spurs fans criticize Kobe fans in this thread... which should tell you all you need to know.

As a Laker fan, I'll say:

No player-fan base has been more toxic to quality basketball thought that the cult of personality that is Kobe fandom, and if you imagine any opponent fanbase is the one being unreasonable, 99% of the time you're wrong...and you can see it right in this thread.

It's completely find not to have Gasol in one's Top 50, but anyone who turns their nose up at Gasol while claiming to be a Laker fan needs to check themselves. Lakers don't get those last two Kobe titles without Gasol. Kobe was the best player on the team no doubt, and a worthy MVP player... but Gasol was huge for the team.

Who is doing that? You guys are trying to put him in the top 50 on par with Kevin Mchale and Charles Barkley. Meanwhile you're turning your noses up at Chris Webber, Elvin Hayes, Dennis Rodman, ect. Laker fans love Pau Gasol but they are also aware of the anti-Kobe fans agenda to pump him up into a mini Shaq.

Its the anti-Kobe fans who are the most toxic. By far. Them and the Lebron fans. Tim Duncan fans not far behind(jk 70sfan. Kinda).

Why is trying to put him on par with Barkley here?

[LAL1947]

Well, I can not agree with placing Pau Gasol over Kevin McHale, Chris Webber or Anthony Davis.

Webber was a bonafide #1 option for a time. Even though he wasn't among the best #1s we've seen in the league, he still had the ability to be a bus driver. Pau couldn't handle that smoke, i.e., he was a bus rider.

McHale: soxfan2003 did a good job explaining why.

Davis: AD is a #1B to #2 option. Pau was a #2 to #3 option.

Nothing like Lakers fans putting down Bryant's teammates to perk up his resume.

Can you explain why you feel that post is incorrect? Just one thing from it, please.

[Stalwart]

As a Laker fan, I'll say:

No player-fan base has been more toxic to quality basketball thought that the cult of personality that is Kobe fandom, and if you imagine any opponent fanbase is the one being unreasonable, 99% of the time you're wrong...and you can see it right in this thread.

It's completely find not to have Gasol in one's Top 50, but anyone who turns their nose up at Gasol while claiming to be a Laker fan needs to check themselves. Lakers don't get those last two Kobe titles without Gasol. Kobe was the best player on the team no doubt, and a worthy MVP player... but Gasol was huge for the team.

Who is doing that? You guys are trying to put him in the top 50 on par with Kevin Mchale and Charles Barkley. Meanwhile you're turning your noses up at Chris Webber, Elvin Hayes, Dennis Rodman, ect. Laker fans love Pau Gasol but they are also aware of the anti-Kobe fans agenda to pump him up into a mini Shaq.

Its the anti-Kobe fans who are the most toxic. By far. Them and the Lebron fans. Tim Duncan fans not far behind(jk 70sfan. Kinda).

Why is trying to put him on par with Barkley here?

Those who are putting Pau in the top 10 PFs all time and on par with Kevin Mchale. They're also pretending like he's on a tier above the likes of Chris Webber, Chris Bosh, Tommy Heinsohn and others.

Pau's great but top 50? Not a chance in the world.

[jfs1000d]

No.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[70sFan]

Who is doing that? You guys are trying to put him in the top 50 on par with Kevin Mchale and Charles Barkley. Meanwhile you're turning your noses up at Chris Webber, Elvin Hayes, Dennis Rodman, ect. Laker fans love Pau Gasol but they are also aware of the anti-Kobe fans agenda to pump him up into a mini Shaq.

Its the anti-Kobe fans who are the most toxic. By far. Them and the Lebron fans. Tim Duncan fans not far behind(jk 70sfan. Kinda).

Why is trying to put him on par with Barkley here?

Those who are putting Pau in the top 10 PFs all time and on par with Kevin Mchale. They're also pretending like he's on a tier above the likes of Chris Webber, Chris Bosh, Tommy Heinsohn and others.

Pau's great but top 50? Not a chance in the world.

Being on par to McHale isn't the same as being on par to Barkley. He's comfortably ahead of Webber, Bosh and Heinsohn to me. He's definitely top 10 PF ever as well. He's not on Barkley level though, Barkley is top 30 players easily.

[Stalwart]

Why is trying to put him on par with Barkley here?

Those who are putting Pau in the top 10 PFs all time and on par with Kevin Mchale. They're also pretending like he's on a tier above the likes of Chris Webber, Chris Bosh, Tommy Heinsohn and others.

Pau's great but top 50? Not a chance in the world.

Being on par to McHale isn't the same as being on par to Barkley. He's comfortably ahead of Webber, Bosh and Heinsohn to me. He's definitely top 10 PF ever as well. He's not on Barkley level though, Barkley is top 30 players easily.

Sure but you also have KG in your top 10 all time. Clearly your criteria is a bit...unique.

What is Pau's case over a guy like Elvin Hayes in your opinion?

[70sFan]

Those who are putting Pau in the top 10 PFs all time and on par with Kevin Mchale. They're also pretending like he's on a tier above the likes of Chris Webber, Chris Bosh, Tommy Heinsohn and others.

Pau's great but top 50? Not a chance in the world.

Being on par to McHale isn't the same as being on par to Barkley. He's comfortably ahead of Webber, Bosh and Heinsohn to me. He's definitely top 10 PF ever as well. He's not on Barkley level though, Barkley is top 30 players easily.

Sure but you also have KG in your top 10 all time. Clearly your criteria is a bit...unique.

What is Pau's case over a guy like Elvin Hayes in your opinion?

I didn't say I have Pau ahead of Elvin Hayes. His case would be his much better offensive game (better scorer, much better passer, better shooter, more efficient) and his intangibles (Hayes was a horrible teammate by all accounts). Hayes was much better defender and had better longevity, plus he was more productive because he played a lot of minutes.

It's close, but for careers I might give Hayes the egde. I likely wouldn't have either in my top 50 either. It doesn't mean that Pau isn't top 10 PF ever though.

[holdenwait]

sometimes I feel like top 50 of all time list is actually made up of 200+- players. same for top 10, easily 20 guys getting nominated for that list on rotation too lol

[Salieri]

Dude, you just called Amar'e a one-trick pony. 100% a highlights watcher. And even if he were a one-trick pony (which he was not), he was way better at his one-trick than Pau was at all his tricks (whatever they were).

I mean, you criticized Gasol's versatility. Gasol, who was capable of shining through his defense (09 Finals defense against Howard and 10 Finals against Celtics frontcourt), his shooting (his midrange and later in his career long range shooting were excellent), his work in the post (I'm sure you'll also demand examples of this ), his passing and vision (again, PLEASE deny this). And you don't consider him versatile. Yet you get so worked up when I -accurately- describe Amare as a one trick pony that you felt the need to attack me personally.

That's Elon Musk level rich, kid

Anyway, why did you have to shoot down my opinion first? I posted what I honestly feel... and I'm clearly not on the same page as you when it comes to rating Pau. So if you feel Pau was a Top 50 player or a Top 10 PF of All-time, then why not just make your own case for it in a separate post quoting the OP?

If you had cared to read my first post in this thread, I respect every opinion except the outlandish ones. And you just said Gasol was equal to Ariza in those Lakers! Your opinion was not only outlandish, but offensive to the intelligence of anyone who ever watched (and understood) basketball.

Many people in this thread have disagreed with the notion that Gasol deserved to be considered even top 100 before your post. And I'm fine with that. But your post? Yeah, it prompted a response from me. I will let you figure out why, let's see if that brain of yours is as good at making basic deductions as it is at making baseless assumptions about the lives of other posters.

The NBA as a whole doesn't think Pau was Top 75 either. Source

ORLY? So you think anyone who entered this thread wasn't already aware of that Top 75 list and you actually felt the need to post it again because you felt it was new information worthy of being shared?

There is a reason why I never enter these threads. You Kobe fanbois are something else, and I say this as someone who loved watching Kobe play and has supported and defended him every single time I've written about him on this board.

Kobe fanbois suck the pleasure of debate out of any topic you enter. It's like a non written law at this point. Horrible, horrible experience for everyone else.

[G35]

So you believe all Spurs fans are as biased as a few posters here that are dedicated Kobe fans? I fail to see your point, are you suggesting that I find Gasol valuable because I'm a Spurs fan?

Only Spurs fans criticize Kobe fans in this thread... which should tell you all you need to know.

As a Laker fan, I'll say:

No player-fan base has been more toxic to quality basketball thought that the cult of personality that is Kobe fandom, and if you imagine any opponent fanbase is the one being unreasonable, 99% of the time you're wrong...and you can see it right in this thread.

It's completely find not to have Gasol in one's Top 50, but anyone who turns their nose up at Gasol while claiming to be a Laker fan needs to check themselves. Lakers don't get those last two Kobe titles without Gasol. Kobe was the best player on the team no doubt, and a worthy MVP player... but Gasol was huge for the team.

They don't get one of those titles without MWP

They don't get two of those titles without Odom

They might not get one of those titles without Bynum


Kobe was an irreplaceable piece and "you can't claim to be a Laker fan" if you don't understand that

Imo, Pau could have been replaced by a lot of PF's, it would have been a different dynamic. Imo Chris Bosh could have done it easily and provided better spacing and mobility on defense. Looking at how Chris had to adjust playing next to Lebron and Wade, I think he could have easily blended in on the Lakers. Looking at the h2h vs Garnett, I think Chris Bosh would have performed better than Gasol did in 2008.

For all the flak that Kobe gets in 2008, no one (looking right at all the Kobe haters) say nothing about how Gasol came up real small in that series.

One of the biggest complaints about Pau is he is not assertive, he passes too much for someone of his skill level. He also has a touch of James Harden flopping in his game as well. I believe there was a meme of Pau flopping and yelling for the foul call going around RGM. Gasol was completely overwhelmed by the Celtics defense and he looked shellshocked. Not surprising since he had gone winless in nine playoff games with Memphis.

Plainly speaking, Pau was soft a lot on the court and the Celtics exploited that. Kobe had to toughen Pau up. First he sent a message by running Pau over in the Olympics and not helping him up.

Watch on YouTube

Then he hung up the Olympic medal that the US won over Spain. There is more to the game than stats and pretty offense. To win at the highest levels you have to be physical.

Read on Twitter

[floppymoose]

I don't think he was top50 nba, but he is probably top50 among olympians? He seemed to play better there.

[Salieri]

They don't get one of those titles without MWP

They don't get two of those titles without Odom

They might not get one of those titles without Bynum


Imo, Pau could have been replaced by a lot of PF's

The rest of your anecdotal fallacies aside (the tactic of pitting Pau against Kobe as if they were rivals instead of teammates is an old trope from Kobe fans), this is the core of your post.

You're essentially saying that MWP, Odom and Bynum were more instrumental to those championships than Pau.

What can a reasonable poster say to that?

This is why participating in these threads is a waste of time, and I regret doing so.

[G35]

They don't get one of those titles without MWP

They don't get two of those titles without Odom

They might not get one of those titles without Bynum


Imo, Pau could have been replaced by a lot of PF's

The rest of your anecdotal fallacies aside (the tactic of pitting Pau against Kobe as if they were rivals instead of teammates is an old trope from Kobe fans), this is the core of your post.

You're essentially saying that MWP, Odom and Bynum were more instrumental to those championships than Pau.

What can a reasonable poster say to that?

This is why participating in these threads is a waste of time, and I regret doing so.

Nope, you're deflecting. I am saying they were just as instrumental as Pau.

Odom was huge for the Lakers being an additional ball handler and facilitator, as well as being able to knock down open three's. Lamar's problem is similar to Pau in that he can't provide dependable offense and he was not always focused.

Bynum was important for the Lakers because he was the best shot blocker and deterrent as well as a big body that other teams had to account for. He actually was more assertive than Pau in getting his FGA's and playing with power around the rim. Bynum's issue was also about concentrating and staying healthy...he was similar to Embiid, Anthony Davis, in being injured.

Metta was important to the Lakers because he was that small forward that could matchup physically with those bigger SF's like Pierce, Lebron, Carmelo etc. Metta provided that physicality that the Lakers were needing to go up against teams like the Celtics.

So you can look at Pau one way, but I see those players all filling a necessary role. Kobe filled a role as well, he was the one that had to create offense when all else broke down. He was also filling that "gravity" role that teams had to double Kobe and he provided the spacing to allow the high/low passing game with the bigs to work.

Kobe was the indispensable player because he was the superstar. That's what superstars are there for. Pau is not a superstar, he was not really even a star imo. He was a very good player, but so was Bynum, so was Odom, so was Metta. They put a team together that worked well together. That is the best thing you can ever say about a leader of a team, is that all the players have a role and are important for making it all work.

What I think the Kobe-haters overlook is that they are trying to make Pau a top 50 player off of the time he spent playing next to Kobe. Not what he did in Memphis or what he did in Chicago, but its all about those two titles that he won next to Kobe.

It's a nonsensical argument:
- On one hand, "Kobe is selfish! Kobe shoots too much! Kobe doesn't pass enough! Kobe makes the game too hard!"

- On the other hand, "Pau is a top 50 player. The Lakers had the best front court in the game. Phil Jackson and the triangle made it work."

So I know the argument will be, "Well two things can be true at the same time, Kobe is selfish and shoots too much and Pau was great."

You're right two things can be true at the same time, Pau was great for the Lakers and he was not a top 50 or 75 player at the same time.

So you're right, you should be more nuanced when getting in these discussions.....

[Doctor MJ]

Only Spurs fans criticize Kobe fans in this thread... which should tell you all you need to know.

As a Laker fan, I'll say:

No player-fan base has been more toxic to quality basketball thought that the cult of personality that is Kobe fandom, and if you imagine any opponent fanbase is the one being unreasonable, 99% of the time you're wrong...and you can see it right in this thread.

It's completely find not to have Gasol in one's Top 50, but anyone who turns their nose up at Gasol while claiming to be a Laker fan needs to check themselves. Lakers don't get those last two Kobe titles without Gasol. Kobe was the best player on the team no doubt, and a worthy MVP player... but Gasol was huge for the team.

I would say labelling all disagreement with the OP (of this anti-Kobe troll thread) as rabid, butthurt stans, is quite toxic to quality basketball thought.

Dude, you were the one writing a post claiming that only Spurs fans had the issue, which is just ridiculous.

General rule: When you're a super-fan of the most popular icon of a sport, and you keep imagining that everyone else is biased, check yourself. Expect that whenever you're opinion aligns with the casual majority, there's a very good chance you're within the group drinking the most potent kool-aid.

[Doctor MJ]

Malone Duncan Garnett durk AD Barkley rodman mchale Giannis Have a really strong case over Pau at his position. Elvin hayes and c Webb have an argument as well.

Hayes has no argument

Why not? He put up better numbers and had a more successful career. How does he have no case?

If you think it's a given that Hayes put up better numbers than Gasol, then there's a ton about the numbers you don't know. I would say that Gasol's numbers are flat out more impressive than Hayes'.

And more successful career? I mean, that's the overarching topic so you can argue that certainly, but you're not arguing it so much asserting it right now, and if it's not based on stats, it's not all that clear what you're referring to.

[tsherkin]

- On one hand, "Kobe is selfish! Kobe shoots too much! Kobe doesn't pass enough! Kobe makes the game too hard!"

- On the other hand, "Pau is a top 50 player. The Lakers had the best front court in the game. Phil Jackson and the triangle made it work."

I think there's a relevant side group here. Stepping away from Pau and whether or not he has a place in the top 50, there is a lot of discussion attempting to denigrate Pau in order to prop up Kobe, which is where there's a bunch of resistance. For me, I can certainly see why someone wouldn't put Pau Top 50. That doesn't mean he wasn't a very good player, of course, and he obviously played a lot better as #2 to Kobe and within the triangle than he was able to as a #1 in Memphis. It worked out for everyone. And it doesn't undercut Kobe to have appropriate talent for a period of dominance. You don't accidentally make 3 trips to the Finals in a row, you do it on a good team. But that was still Kobe's team, and he was clearly the best player on that squad and all that.

So I know the argument will be, "Well two things can be true at the same time, Kobe is selfish and shoots too much and Pau was great."

You're right two things can be true at the same time, Pau was great for the Lakers and he was not a top 50 or 75 player at the same time.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. Didn't get to you earlier reply to me, but we largely agree with the basic premise that Pau fit very well into this context and was a very good #2 to Kobe.

In the 2007-08 season, the Lakers started with Bynum and Odom in the front court and they were playing very well. At one point were the #1 team in the WC. It took Bynum's injury for the Lakers to pull the trigger on trading for Pau.

The Lakers unquestionably won at a notably higher rate with Pau even in 08 than without him. He immediately improved the team. Remember, they were 22-5 with him (67-win pace), and 35-20 without him (52-win pace). In Bynum's 35 games, they were 24-11 (56-win pace), so again, they were doing notably better with Pau.

OTOH, Pau was not necessarily the optimal or only fit for the Lakers, I think many other players could have duplicated Gasol's impact in that time period:

Bosh
Garnett
Duncan
Al Jefferson
Elton Brand
ZBo
Rasheed
Boozer
Al Horford
Aldridge

Doubt it with Bosh, Jefferson, Brand, Z Bo, Sheed, Boozer or Aldridge. Garnett and Duncan were superstars, so that seems evident. They likely would have been a lot better, even with KG and Tim a little older at that point. Al Jefferson was an inefficient post scorer who wasn't a great passer and wasn't a good defender, he would definitely not have been as good as Pau in that system. Z Bo was a good rebounder but nothing like Pau on D or as a passer, and was worse on offense. Sheed wasn't the rebounder or scoring threat. Boozer was a horrific defender, though offensively he might have fit in. Horford was and remains quite good. Aldridge was not good enough on the glass and was a notably less effective scoring threat. Most of those dudes wouldn't have got it done in LA.