2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[jalengreen]

This Brooklyn situation is nuts. I don't think anybody expected things to go this way when KD and Kyrie first signed

Plenty of us were pointing out the obvious potential downsides involved in the NBA's two most fragile divas teaming up at the time. We were just dismissed because of the usual "they have too much talent not to make it work" rationale, despite the fact that there's been many stacked teams over the years that collapsed due to egos/dysfunction.

If there's a lesson to be learned from the Nets' collapse, it's that basketball is as much a social game as it is a game of strategy or skill, and just throwing a bunch of talent together with no regard for their personalities is a bad idea.

or injuries. like the 2021 nets.

sure the 2022 team 100% collapsed due to dysfunction and a lack of leadership. but there's a good chance this discusison isnt happening if kyrie/harden dont get hurt in 2021 in the same series (that went to 7 against the eventual champs). and i really dont remember "they're too injury-prone" being the primary criticism of the nets' stars when they teamed up. in fact harden was probably the league's most durable star alongside lebron.

i just think some of the discourse about the nets is odd given how good that 2021 team looked when healthy. shoot just give them a healthy harden and i'd have them beating the bucks even if kyrie didn't return. 2021 harden was a ridiculously good player. it's not like this team never had a real chance to win.

[Peregrine01]

He has great reverence for Kyrie's skills but Kyrie was also the only legitimate guy he could team up with at the time.

He could have played with Kawhi. He chose Kyrie instead. Most likely because, unlike Kawhi, Kyrie was the clearly inferior player to KD and therefore not a threat to his ego like Curry was.

Well yeah, the reason why he wanted to leave the Warriors was because he wanted to be The Guy again.

[jalengreen]

He has great reverence for Kyrie's skills but Kyrie was also the only legitimate guy he could team up with at the time.

He could have played with Kawhi. He chose Kyrie instead. Most likely because, unlike Kawhi, Kyrie was the clearly inferior player to KD and therefore not a threat to his ego like Curry was.

... or they were really good friends? not everything has to be super deep

[Peregrine01]

Yeah, while I think it's fair to say that lots of crazy things have happened that weren't specifically predicted, I think a lot of people at the time of the original signing thought:

"Oh my god, is KD really that foolish to tie himself to Kyrie?"

One funny thing to me:

As folks probably remember, it wasn't that long ago that KD was going on Bill Simmons podcast, getting drunk, and just letting loose on a number of episodes.

KD then decides to join up with Kyrie, who Simmons had just experienced through his Boston Celtic lens.

Since then, no more drunken KD pods.

Coincidence?

Nope. Simmons on a pod recently talked about telling KD at the time what it mistake it was to join up with Kyrie, and that KD seemed to distance himself after that.

One of course could conclude this is just some kind of sour grapes thing coming from Simmons...but honestly, Simmons claimed he did exactly what I'd have expected Simmons to do, and Simmons then claimed KD responded exactly like I'd expect KD too.

This was a situation where Human A falls under the spell of Human B and just won't listen as the rest of the world tries to have an intervention.

I really do wonder what Durant is thinking now about Kyrie. At this point, if KD were someone without any emotional attachments, he shouldn't be doing anything further to keep his future joined together with Kyrie. Had KD arrived at the point where he can see this clearly, or not?

I don't think KD joining Kyrie was mostly about him wanting to play with him but more about him wanting to leave the Warriors. He has great reverence for Kyrie's skills but Kyrie was also the only legitimate guy he could team up with at the time.

Anyway, I'm not surprised at all how things fell apart for these Nets. You put this many divas on the team at the same time with no established culture and this is what tends to happen. I only really feel bad for Nash in all of this.

KD & Kyrie were extremely tight ever since the Olympics, and literally I heard stories of KD, Kyrie & Harden all together bandying about the idea of playing together while KD was still in GS, so no, I don't think Kyrie was simply the best available star. To me it really seems like KD really, really liked Kyrie and loved the idea of building something "their way" together.

Call me skeptical when these NBA players call each other brothers and how much they love each other. The way Kyrie is dangling the Nets and KD on a string right now and what Harden did last season tells me they're not all that loving and loyal to each other. I think the more accurate representation is that they're thinking of themselves first and foremost and then viewing others as means to get what they want.

[Doctor MJ]

He has great reverence for Kyrie's skills but Kyrie was also the only legitimate guy he could team up with at the time.

He could have played with Kawhi. He chose Kyrie instead. Most likely because, unlike Kawhi, Kyrie was the clearly inferior player to KD and therefore not a threat to his ego like Curry was.

I get the reasoning, but I think this was less about who was actually best - because KD thinks he's the best in the world, and certainly better than Curry - and more about how others were able to validate him.

Curry couldn't validate KD because KD couldn't stop thinking about the fact that it was Curry's team.
Kawhi would have the same issue along with an absolute lack of leadership ability or other interpersonal soft skills.

Kyrie, so far as I can tell, must be incredibly charismatic on an individual level. There was something about the relationship that Kyrie instinctively was able to build with KD that made KD not feel competitive with Kyrie. This isn't something I think Kyrie understands on a logical level - logic not being his strong suit - but to me he very much feels like the "cool kid" befriending the neurotic geek in this relationship.

[MartinToVaught]

He has great reverence for Kyrie's skills but Kyrie was also the only legitimate guy he could team up with at the time.

He could have played with Kawhi. He chose Kyrie instead. Most likely because, unlike Kawhi, Kyrie was the clearly inferior player to KD and therefore not a threat to his ego like Curry was.

Well yeah, the reason why he wanted to leave the Warriors was because he wanted to be The Guy again.

Of course. I'm just pointing out that Kyrie wasn't the only star available for him to play with. Just the only one who satisfied his ego.

The Nets - especially after trading for Harden - were KD's attempt to break the league all over again, but with him getting all the credit this time as opposed to having to share it with Curry. KD has allowed his ego to tank his reputation and derail his career. It's sad.

[parsnips33]

Brooklyn winning game 7 last year against Milwaukee is such an interesting what-if to think about.

Likely Finals run for Brooklyn, but I think Phoenix would probably beat them

Another early exit for Giannis

Lot of narratives would be flipped on their heads

[Doctor MJ]

Call me skeptical when these NBA players call each other brothers and how much they love each other. The way Kyrie is dangling the Nets and KD on a string right now and what Harden did last season tells me they're not all that loving and loyal to each other. I think the more accurate representation is that they're thinking of themselves first and foremost and then viewing others as means to get what they want.

I don't see that as contradicting what I said.

For one, people can believe in a partnership up front and then end up abandoning it when it fails.

Second, while I mentioned Harden being in the conversation before Brooklyn was involved, when KD & Kyrie decided on Brooklyn, it was something the two of them decided together. As such, that was the core relationship involved.

Third, I was more focused on why KD bought into this approach as opposed to focusing on Kyrie. From a basketball perspective, Kyrie SHOULD want to play with KD, the mystery was what KD thought he was getting out of the relationship. Hence, when Kyrie repeatedly puts himself in front of the team like he's done, while this can be said to make Kyrie disingenuous, KD's still there and still tied to him for reasons that clearly weren't to allow his own stature to get used as a threat by his teammate.

I don't have much sympathy for KD because he's absolutely brought all this on himself, and he's hurt others along the way, but KD's career is a legit victim of Kyrie & Harden in a way that I don't think the others can say about KD.

[MartinToVaught]

This Brooklyn situation is nuts. I don't think anybody expected things to go this way when KD and Kyrie first signed

Plenty of us were pointing out the obvious potential downsides involved in the NBA's two most fragile divas teaming up at the time. We were just dismissed because of the usual "they have too much talent not to make it work" rationale, despite the fact that there's been many stacked teams over the years that collapsed due to egos/dysfunction.

If there's a lesson to be learned from the Nets' collapse, it's that basketball is as much a social game as it is a game of strategy or skill, and just throwing a bunch of talent together with no regard for their personalities is a bad idea.

or injuries. like the 2021 nets.

sure the 2022 team 100% collapsed due to dysfunction and a lack of leadership. but there's a good chance this discusison isnt happening if kyrie/harden dont get hurt in 2021 in the same series (that went to 7 against the eventual champs). and i really dont remember "they're too injury-prone" being the primary criticism of the nets' stars when they teamed up. in fact harden was probably the league's most durable star alongside lebron.

i just think some of the discourse about the nets is odd given how good that 2021 team looked when healthy. shoot just give them a healthy harden and i'd have them beating the bucks even if kyrie didn't return. 2021 harden was a ridiculously good player. it's not like this team never had a real chance to win.

I just don't think we can possibly say for sure that the Nets would have avoided melting down in 2021 if they stayed healthy. Durant, Kyrie and Harden all on the same team was always a threat to have an epic meltdown when it mattered most, regardless of how they looked in the regular season.

[MyUniBroDavis]

KYRIE TO LA SPEAK IT INTO EXISTENCE

[jalengreen]

Plenty of us were pointing out the obvious potential downsides involved in the NBA's two most fragile divas teaming up at the time. We were just dismissed because of the usual "they have too much talent not to make it work" rationale, despite the fact that there's been many stacked teams over the years that collapsed due to egos/dysfunction.

If there's a lesson to be learned from the Nets' collapse, it's that basketball is as much a social game as it is a game of strategy or skill, and just throwing a bunch of talent together with no regard for their personalities is a bad idea.

or injuries. like the 2021 nets.

sure the 2022 team 100% collapsed due to dysfunction and a lack of leadership. but there's a good chance this discusison isnt happening if kyrie/harden dont get hurt in 2021 in the same series (that went to 7 against the eventual champs). and i really dont remember "they're too injury-prone" being the primary criticism of the nets' stars when they teamed up. in fact harden was probably the league's most durable star alongside lebron.

i just think some of the discourse about the nets is odd given how good that 2021 team looked when healthy. shoot just give them a healthy harden and i'd have them beating the bucks even if kyrie didn't return. 2021 harden was a ridiculously good player. it's not like this team never had a real chance to win.

I just don't think we can possibly say for sure that the Nets would have avoided melting down in 2021 if they stayed healthy. Durant, Kyrie and Harden all on the same team was always a threat to have an epic meltdown when it mattered most, regardless of how they looked in the regular season.

the stance boils down to pure conjecture

sure the nets were injured, but if they were healthy they probably would've melted down anyway!

[MartinToVaught]

or injuries. like the 2021 nets.

sure the 2022 team 100% collapsed due to dysfunction and a lack of leadership. but there's a good chance this discusison isnt happening if kyrie/harden dont get hurt in 2021 in the same series (that went to 7 against the eventual champs). and i really dont remember "they're too injury-prone" being the primary criticism of the nets' stars when they teamed up. in fact harden was probably the league's most durable star alongside lebron.

i just think some of the discourse about the nets is odd given how good that 2021 team looked when healthy. shoot just give them a healthy harden and i'd have them beating the bucks even if kyrie didn't return. 2021 harden was a ridiculously good player. it's not like this team never had a real chance to win.

I just don't think we can possibly say for sure that the Nets would have avoided melting down in 2021 if they stayed healthy. Durant, Kyrie and Harden all on the same team was always a threat to have an epic meltdown when it mattered most, regardless of how they looked in the regular season.

the stance boils down to pure conjecture

sure the nets were injured, but if they were healthy they probably would've melted down anyway!

It's also conjecture to chalk the whole failure up to injuries in 2021 and miss the bigger picture. The Nets were always on shaky ground when they built their team around three inconsistent mercurial divas with no leaders or respected coach to set them straight. There were so many things that could have gone wrong, injuries just happened to be the one in 2021.

[jalengreen]

I just don't think we can possibly say for sure that the Nets would have avoided melting down in 2021 if they stayed healthy. Durant, Kyrie and Harden all on the same team was always a threat to have an epic meltdown when it mattered most, regardless of how they looked in the regular season.

the stance boils down to pure conjecture

sure the nets were injured, but if they were healthy they probably would've melted down anyway!

It's also conjecture to chalk the whole failure up to injuries in 2021 and miss the bigger picture. The Nets were always on shaky ground when they built their team around three inconsistent mercurial divas with no leaders or respected coach to set them straight.

a lot of players are inconsistent if KD is...

[parsnips33]

I wanna see Kyrie in Miami. I think they need that level of offensive creator to put them over the top

[parsnips33]

If Denver could somehow get KD... oh boy

[Texas Chuck]

This Brooklyn situation is nuts. I don't think anybody expected things to go this way when KD and Kyrie first signed

Plenty of us were pointing out the obvious potential downsides involved in the NBA's two most fragile divas teaming up at the time. We were just dismissed because of the usual "they have too much talent not to make it work" rationale, despite the fact that there's been many stacked teams over the years that collapsed due to egos/dysfunction.

If there's a lesson to be learned from the Nets' collapse, it's that basketball is as much a social game as it is a game of strategy or skill, and just throwing a bunch of talent together with no regard for their personalities is a bad idea.

or injuries. like the 2021 nets.

sure the 2022 team 100% collapsed due to dysfunction and a lack of leadership. but there's a good chance this discusison isnt happening if kyrie/harden dont get hurt in 2021 in the same series (that went to 7 against the eventual champs). and i really dont remember "they're too injury-prone" being the primary criticism of the nets' stars when they teamed up. in fact harden was probably the league's most durable star alongside lebron.

i just think some of the discourse about the nets is odd given how good that 2021 team looked when healthy. shoot just give them a healthy harden and i'd have them beating the bucks even if kyrie didn't return. 2021 harden was a ridiculously good player. it's not like this team never had a real chance to win.

So since I kicked this off, I want to be clear about what I was saying. I wasn't saying the Nets were never going to work. KD and Kyrie are absurdly good basketball players and then they added James Harden.

But I was saying that what happened this year and may be happening now(I think a lot of this is posturing) was always within the realm of reasonable possible outcomes.

So them being a contender in 21 before injuries did them in, in no way contradicts my original point that I could absolutely have seen this not go great.

I wasn't saying they'd fail. I was saying they weren't guaranteed anything and that it could in fact end poorly. Kyrie is just that big of a wild card imo.

[Doctor MJ]

the stance boils down to pure conjecture

sure the nets were injured, but if they were healthy they probably would've melted down anyway!

It's also conjecture to chalk the whole failure up to injuries in 2021 and miss the bigger picture. The Nets were always on shaky ground when they built their team around three inconsistent mercurial divas with no leaders or respected coach to set them straight.

a lot of players are inconsistent if KD is...

You’re saying KD is consistent on court right?

I’d expect he’s referring to how he behaved as managed to go from super-happy to super-bitter at those around in the span of little more than a year as a result of the team achieving all he said he wanted.

Hard to make someone like that your long-term franchise player. Even harder when the guys he keeps insisting are the perfect fits next to him are even flightier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fadeaway_J]

Plenty of us were pointing out the obvious potential downsides involved in the NBA's two most fragile divas teaming up at the time. We were just dismissed because of the usual "they have too much talent not to make it work" rationale, despite the fact that there's been many stacked teams over the years that collapsed due to egos/dysfunction.

If there's a lesson to be learned from the Nets' collapse, it's that basketball is as much a social game as it is a game of strategy or skill, and just throwing a bunch of talent together with no regard for their personalities is a bad idea.

or injuries. like the 2021 nets.

sure the 2022 team 100% collapsed due to dysfunction and a lack of leadership. but there's a good chance this discusison isnt happening if kyrie/harden dont get hurt in 2021 in the same series (that went to 7 against the eventual champs). and i really dont remember "they're too injury-prone" being the primary criticism of the nets' stars when they teamed up. in fact harden was probably the league's most durable star alongside lebron.

i just think some of the discourse about the nets is odd given how good that 2021 team looked when healthy. shoot just give them a healthy harden and i'd have them beating the bucks even if kyrie didn't return. 2021 harden was a ridiculously good player. it's not like this team never had a real chance to win.

So since I kicked this off, I want to be clear about what I was saying. I wasn't saying the Nets were never going to work. KD and Kyrie are absurdly good basketball players and then they added James Harden.

But I was saying that what happened this year and may be happening now(I think a lot of this is posturing) was always within the realm of reasonable possible outcomes.

So them being a contender in 21 before injuries did them in, in no way contradicts my original point that I could absolutely have seen this not go great.

I wasn't saying they'd fail. I was saying they weren't guaranteed anything and that it could in fact end poorly. Kyrie is just that big of a wild card imo.

Exactly this. It's called disaster potential for a reason.

Lots of teams have lost out on a legit shot at a title due to unfortunate injuries. Most of them just don't disintegrate within less than a year like the Nets have - and the way they disintegrated is very much tied to Kyrie's erratic personality which was a red flag from the start.

[eminence]

My favorite guys in the draft this season, no Sharpe or internationals:

Tier 1
Chet Holmgren

Tier 2
Jabari Smith
Keegan Murray
Paolo Banchero
Tari Eason
Jaden Ivey

Tier 3
Jeremy Sochan
AJ Griffin
Dyson Daniels
EJ Liddell
Mark Williams
Jalen Duren
Walker Kessler
Ochai Agbaji
Wendell Moore
Bennedict Mathurin
TyTy Washington
Johnny Davis

[Dr Positivity]

I have the Nets as overperforming when they pushed the Bucks to 7, in particular playing surprisingly good defense in that series for their personnel and poor regular season results. I don't think they were a guarantee to beat the Hawks if they were going in with Kyrie and Harden as health question marks, and at some point Durant couldn't keep carrying the team like that without breaking down.