RealGM Top 100 #3

[GilmoreFan]

A case over Oscar, both of whom I have well behind the Malone's, KG, D.Rob, etc. Hopefully the majority here do too.

[studcrackers]

...

Just a quick calculation of what was provided on that site

63 Finals - 49 FG% for entire series
65 Finals - 42.6 FG% - Only last 4 games had FGA
66 Finals - No FGA info
68 Finals - Elimination Game Only - 22 points @ 42FG%
69 Finals - Elimination Game Only - 42 points @ 48 FG%
70 Finals - 45 FG% for entire series


Didn't bother past that since he was clearly out of his prime.

how was he clearly out of his prime?

[drza]

I see my Magic opinion was enough in the minority that it never generated much discussion. The flip side of that is that no one really countered my feelings on the subject. So, pending a killer convo tomorrow, I'll go:

Vote: Magic Johnson
Nomination: Kevin Garnett

[SDChargers#1]

Although I do feel Oscar is slightly better than West, considering West is the next up on my nomination list and I don't want to continue throwing my vote away, I change my nomination to Jerry West

[Vinsanity420]

I change my nomination to Jerry West for the reasons SDChargers stated.

[GilmoreFan]

This has much the same effect as preferential voting, which is good. The only downside is some people's votes still aren't counting, because they're voting for guys like KG or whoever.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I see my Magic opinion was enough in the minority that it never generated much discussion. The flip side of that is that no one really countered my feelings on the subject. So, pending a killer convo tomorrow, I'll go:

Vote: Magic Johnson
Nomination: Kevin Garnett

For me, Magic's defense was too weak to beat out KAJ. I do think Magic was the most important player in the 80's for the Lakers, but Kareem's 70's added with his 80's seasons, gave him the edge.

From #4 -9, I think it will get interesting. Magic & Bird were greats of their era, but neither were elite on the defensive side of the ball. Shaq & Wilt are very comparable, though I still favor Wilt over Shaq because of rebounding, and defense. TD & Kobe were elite on both sides of the court, and have the longevity to go with it. This is where criteria really takes center stage.

[GilmoreFan]

So we now have West on 9 with the vote changes, Karl Malone on 7, and 4 people still on KG, 1 for Mikan and 1 for Lebron. Still another 14 eligible voters, but I'm thinking some of the 3rd party votes might need to change to get one of the other a majority...

[An Unbiased Fan]

^
Looking for a majority vote on nominations is counter-productive. People should nominate whomever they please, because that actually spurs discussion.

[GilmoreFan]

Says the guy who changed his vote from Mikan, once he realised Mikan stood no shot of getting up. You're saying this on the back of 3 people changing their vote, and the mod co-running the project saying he wants people to be political about this, to form a consensus. It sounds like vote changing is a decent way to work towards that consensus, rather than plurality nominations.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Says the guy who changed his vote from Mikan, once he realised Mikan stood no shot of getting up. You're saying this on the back of 3 people changing their vote, and the mod co-running the project saying he wants people to be political about this, to form a consensus. It sounds like vote changing is a decent way to work towards that consensus, rather than plurality nominations.

I voted for Mikan out of respect and to get his name into the conversation, which it did. So far, I think the nomination process has worked out better than I expected. Half of this thread is filled with people debating the merits of multiple nominees. Looking for a majority will only dampen conversation, and lead to one sentence nominations.

[Baller 24]

How far does Wilt fall is the question currently. Is it possible for him to fall any further? His dominance as a basketball player is beyond question. I'm also interested in seeing where the 6 original players from last time end up being seeded.

Magic definitely has a legitimate case at the next slot, I mean being the greatest Laker of all-time, and spanning a decade of dominance, from clutch plays, to shots, to playoff heroics, he's got the entire package. And in terms of play, he's one of the Top 2-3 biggest mismatches in the history of the game, it's incredibly hard to match-up with him, he can change defensive schemes on a game to game basis. Pretty phenomenal, and I'd definitely consider him at #4, would love to hear arguments.

[penbeast0]

Of course he's competing against Wilt and Shaq, the number 1 and 2 mismatches of all time and the most dominant individual stars as well as being more valuable defensive players than Magic as well.

[Fencer reregistered]

Of course he's competing against Wilt and Shaq, the number 1 and 2 mismatches of all time and the most dominant individual stars as well as being more valuable defensive players than Magic as well.

The thing is -- Magic had SUBSTANTIAL effect on the offense of all his teammates, just as a great shotblocking center can affect everybody's defense.

Hopefully we can agree that Wilt didn't have a Russell-lite kind of impact on defense, except possibly in the LA years, when he didn't have a Wilt-like impact on offense. But yes, even at his defensive "worst" Wilt was probably a much more positive factor on defense than Magic was.

The rebounding part is interesting, because it's not obvious to me whether an outstanding rebounding big really contributes more to the overall rebounding of his team (versus a hypothetical less remarkable alternative) than an off-the-charts rebounding guard.

I'm leaning to Magic at #4. I'm leaning to having Shaq #7 or #8, after Magic, Bird, Wilt, and perhaps Duncan in some order.

[Vinsanity420]

Dr. MJ didn't have Wilt in his Top 10, last I checked... wanted to see the reasoning for that.

[mysticbb]

Well, if you want political voting, fine.

We could have avoided such thing by going with IRV instead of our current voting system. But some people felt it was too complicated. As if putting out a list of Top5 candidates instead of only one vote would have made such a big difference.


Anyway, so far the discussion is good in parts and pretty boring in others. The boring part for me comes from a fact that we are discussing players we (or at least I) discussed several times already. Thus I will just go ahead and vote:

Vote: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Nomination: Karl Malone

[GilmoreFan]

Duncan also has a great case, and I'll be writing a post going over the reasons for this in depth. Since the dilemma of Russell has been removed from me, the next slot comes down to Wilt, Magic and Duncan for me. There are good arguments for all 3, and I will see how things go before settling. I sympathise with the Shaq vote too, but based on the career he actually had I can't put him there.

Wilt does seem in serious danger at this point though.

[GilmoreFan]

Oh, and we're now at KAJ- 18, Wilt and Magic on 2 each.

Can some of the KG supporters please re-vote? I suspect most of you will be voting for Karl Malone over Jerry West (who is currently 1 vote ahead), and if you stay with KG this time around you're going to split the vote next round (possibly allowing Oscar to get up). If we just vote Karl Malone in now, then KG will get in next time, and you'll have a chance to debate KG and Karl Malone higher in the list like you want.

[lorak]

Vote: Magic
Nomination: K. Malone

EDIT, I just read drza's post about Magic vs KAJ and I'm changing my vote to Magic

[TMACFORMVP]

I really don't have any time or internet connection from where I'm at to fully participate in this discussion (can only read up to pg. 5 of this thread).

My vote is clear, I went with Kareem last time, will go with him this time as well. As for my nomination, I'm still up in the air with many others, but I'll go with Karl Malone since I was deliberating between him and Moses in the last thread.

Vote: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Nominate: Karl Malone

I think the next thread will be even more interesting, I agree with those that Magic has a case over Wilt, and could see an argument for Shaq as well.