The role of PGs for winning NBA titles

[tsherkin]

No, the opposite. Only title winners.

Winning a title is the biggest different maker. That was the point I was making.

With that, I cannot agree. It ignores too much context, IMHO.

The last mile is 10 miles long.

Its the biggest difference maker. Its were all shortcomings are magnified.

I think there's too much chance involved, stuff external to the player, for that to be a viable stance. Guess I'll call 'agree to disagree' here.

[JimmyTD3]

The reason PG numbers aren't impressive on title winners is because pretty much all title winners in the past 15 years have had LeBron, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan/Spurs system. Pretty simple

[TaylorMonkey]

As I said here in a previous thread about Derrick Rose, PG is by far the most overrated position in NBA basketball(just NBA ball, I don't believe they face the same problems in college or High School). IMO, the reason is that it's much easier for the media and public to relate to them(height, style of play, etc).

It's very difficult for the average person to relate to a big man for obvious reasons. Superstar wings are different, as their style of play and flashy style transcends everything.

History has taught us that if a PG is your best player, you're going to have a very difficult time winning a championship. It takes very special circumstances, such as Isiah winning with a defense-first supporting cast and Billups winning with a balanced team with arguably the greatest defensive frontcourt in NBA history IMO.

As others have mentioned, it's just way too easy to shut down a star PG in the playoffs when he's the #1 option/highest usage player. The league is always full of athletic wings with huge wingspans that will virtually always win the battle against the PG.

The only outlier is Magic Johnson, and he was a 6'9 genetic freak, one of the top 3 players in the history of the league IMO.

Some points:

- Isiah Thomas's role for the Bad Boys Pistons is a little overrated IMO. That team was much more well-balanced than they are given credit for.

- The 2013 Spurs came close to winning a title with a PG as their best player, but as we feared, Parker was completely eliminated from the series in the latter part of the Finals. Duncan and Leonard kept the Spurs in it, but TP was horrific in the most important games of the series.

- The 2014 Spurs won a title with Tony Parker being virtually useless in the playoffs. He had the 2nd worst on/off metrics on the roster, the Spurs won 2 clinching games without him playing, he only had 2 or 3 high quality games throughout the playoffs. It was evident all season that he was going to struggle due to the fatigue from 2013(deep playoff run + Summer of international basketball), as Pop had to shut him down at points during the regular season.

- As a Spurs fan, I'm very familiar with a PG's struggles in the playoffs. Outside of parts of 2002, and then 2007(where he was still the 3rd best player on the team) and 2013, Parker has been underwhelming in the playoffs throughout his career.

- I actually like Chris Paul's style of play in the playoffs. He performs well in the post-season and his usage rate is usually appropriate IMO. He gets criticized for deferring to other players, but that's the proper role for him to play IMO. If Griffin can take the next step and become a legit playoff #1 guy, the Clippers will be much better off with CP3 being an elite #2 guy IMO. The Clippers didn't lose last year because of Paul, they lost due to their other glaring flaws, which will probably by the case again this season.

Paul actually killed the Spurs in New Orleans when Bowen guarded him in 2008. Pop switched Bowen onto Peja after the Spurs were down 0-2(and Peja was subsequently eliminated from the series), and the Spurs were better off for it.

- Again, as a Spurs fan, I've seen a few glaring examples of a PG getting shut down by a longer defender the past few years. Danny Green is the best PG defender in the NBA IMO, and as a poster on SpursTalk highlighted with numbers, it can be quantified. He completely shut down Chris Paul in 2012. Curry was completely eliminated from the 2013 series once Pop switched Green onto him(and Leonard onto Thompson, which completely ended Corey Matthews's series). Green against Lillard was the same result, too.

Westbrook was the only PG to have some success against Green, and I don't even know if he is really considered a PG lol.

For what it's worth, Curry had a busted wheel for parts of that series when Green guarded him. He still manage to hit 5/10 3's as an immobile spot up shooter in game 4.

[ChokeFasncists]

The game has changed these pass twenty years. PGs used to be the ones handling the ball and passing but now players from other positions can do that too. Bigger players are stronger and less injury prone, can more easily get shots up. That's been the trend, bigs being able to shoot etc. Would love to have someone that brings back the Stockton or AI type of game, hopefully combined while not being injury prone, that'd be a new trend? If D Rose didn't get injured who knows?

[og15]

The game has changed these pass twenty years. PGs used to be the ones handling the ball and passing but now players from other positions can do that too. Bigger players are stronger and less injury prone, can more easily get shots up. That's been the trend, bigs being able to shoot etc. Would love to have someone that brings back the Stockton or AI type of game, hopefully combined while not being injury prone, that'd be a new trend? If D Rose didn't get injured who knows?

Not sure these things you are mentioning are new things. There have always been shooting bigs, now maybe it is just more 3PT shooting bigs while before they would shoot mid-range. There have always been other players handling the ball and passing. Those aren't new developments.

[ChokeFasncists]

^
I'm definitely talking long range shooting.

There was no 'Toine, LeBron, Mason, Nellie ball etc, at least it's rare. If Magic is new, he'd probably be a SF.

[NashtyNas]

Those stats are surprising in a way because there's an abundance of high usage scoring PGs in the league right now but I guess the championship winning PG debate kind of narrows it down to may be 5-7 teams over the past couple decades. You could also argue that Kobe/Lebron were always the point guards for their respective teams.

Historically, Bigmen win championships... not PGs. so big time stats are going to be skewed more towards bigs then gaurds, especially talking the first 3 or 4 decades of the league, and pre 3point line. you are also kind of diluting the number with the early years when scoring was down from the modern eras.

He took the last couple decades, not even the first couple. When was the last time a big man won the finals MVP? You have Dirk and then back to Duncan in 2005 before that. Its always been scoring wings who have been as important if not more than big men alone.

Duncan can be argued in just about every Spurs title based on his impact defensively alone.
His offensive numbers have dropped significantly but he still performs when called upon and his presence defensively cannot be underestimated.

Kobe wouldn't have won his first few without Shaq, nor his last few without Odom/Gasol/Bynum.

Winning FMVP doesn't mean SG's or primary ball handlers are more important to winning titles. OF COURSE they help, but the recipe for winning has and always will be top tier big men.

You don't need a top tier ball handler to feed the ball to the post, you just need a serviceable guy who can bring the ball up the court, defend his man, and in this era you also hope he's a great 3PT shooter.

Also this:

The reason PG numbers aren't impressive on title winners is because pretty much all title winners in the past 15 years have had LeBron, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan/Spurs system. Pretty simple

That sums it up well. The reason those PG's don't have great stats is because they were simply complimentary players and not actually the primary ball handlers/creators.

Nash didn't win a ring because of the Spurs, which is nothing to be ashamed of. Arguably the best PF of all time, as well as the 2nd best SG of all time in Kobe were in their prime when he was, and playing in the same conference.
Obviously I have some issues with the officiating in certain series but those wounds are almost healed so I would rather not re-open them.

It's a wonder why Kidd couldn't be in more Finals playing in the East, which was almost as bad then as it is now. He had Vince, Jefferson (sic) and K-Mart.... it's not like his cast was atrocious. Could have used more big man help just like Nash - which brings me back to my original point that big men are more important than wing players.

Robinson & Duncan, Shaq, Wallace & Wallace, Shaq, Gasol & Bynum & Odom, KG, Dirk & Chandler, Bosh

Those were the big men on championship teams going back ~15 years. Not one team won a ring without at least 1 All-Star big. Yes the Spurs are the exception but Duncan had 22/11/2/2.5 that year, he was only left off because hew as injured.

Sorry about the tangent.

[tsherkin]

^
I'm definitely talking long range shooting.

There was no 'Toine, LeBron, Mason, Nellie ball etc, at least it's rare. If Magic is new, he'd probably be a SF.

If Magic was a new player today, the only thing which would change is what we would call him.

In his own time, he was a primary ball-handler who did not guard the other team's small guard anyway. That's probably a point forward under the post-Pressey/Pippen lexicon, but it doesn't really change anything about the player himself, since he was still the primary initiator on offense and a volume playmaker/distributor.

[Ugalde]

I personally have never believed in the PG leasing the team. Mainly because I don't believe in short players. If the PG is 6"6 or something than maybe, but I just don't believe in the short guys.

Short players exist brah

I just mean I dont really believe in them leading the team.

[fluffernutter]

The reason PG numbers aren't impressive on title winners is because pretty much all title winners in the past 15 years have had LeBron, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan/Spurs system. Pretty simple

I agree with this but also draw an obvious corollary: to win the championship, you have to be a true franchise player, and these don't include any point guards by definition.

We are waiting for that stud PG, and thought we had found him in Rose (for one or two years). But I think it's clear he not able to take a team to the championship even if he had had better support.

How good does a PG have to be in order to drive a good/not great team to the finals and win?

I'd argue, better than any we have ever seen so far, barring Magic (the ultimate freak).

Just not a wise place to invest resources. With a constrained budget, you need a competent PG, or a good one on a reasonable deal (like Mike Conley). Otherwise, stay away from the Chris Paul max players. Never gonna get you there, or if they do it will require an epic epic star-studded team the likes of which we have not seen since the old Lakers/Celtics.

Really this is completely common sense. History tells us that the players who drive you to the championship are tall enough to have a big impact defensively, and skilled enough on the other end as well. In general, you want you max player to be as tall as possible. That sounds incredibly stupid and reductive, but it seems to be terrifyingly true.

[Cloud777]

Yup, once Phil put Kobe on him it was over. The last point guard to carry his team to the championship was Isaiah Thomas and he is vastly underrated due to his failures as a GM, not sure why that should tarnish his reputation as a player however he was an all time great.

Wait, what? Once Phil put Kobe on who? Hopefully you aren't referring to A.I. because it was Tyronn Lue who locked him. Kobe had nothing to do with it.

AI destroyed Fisher and had his way with Tyrone Lue. Phil's M.O is putting Kobe on AI or Bibby in the 4th quarter of the playoffs during that 3 peat stretch then the Lakers closes those team out period...the video is not good quality and it is obviously not the nba finals but it does give an example of the point I was making. AI is one of my fav players to ever play the game, obviously one poster already refuted my statement with numerous stats to back it up which I let go, you probably should've and1'd him and kept it moving.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLg15UIRLY[/youtube]

My bad. I posted that as an immediate reaction without even looking at the rest of the posts

[ChokeFasncists]

^
I'm definitely talking long range shooting.

There was no 'Toine, LeBron, Mason, Nellie ball etc, at least it's rare. If Magic is new, he'd probably be a SF.

If Magic was a new player today, the only thing which would change is what we would call him.

In his own time, he was a primary ball-handler who did not guard the other team's small guard anyway. That's probably a point forward under the post-Pressey/Pippen lexicon, but it doesn't really change anything about the player himself, since he was still the primary initiator on offense and a volume playmaker/distributor.

Exactly, but then he'll probably have a guy like Chalmers on the team rather than Worthy.

[ChokeFasncists]

The reason PG numbers aren't impressive on title winners is because pretty much all title winners in the past 15 years have had LeBron, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan/Spurs system. Pretty simple

We are waiting for that stud PG, and thought we had found him in Rose (for one or two years). But I think it's clear he not able to take a team to the championship even if he had had better support.

How is it clear? The season he was injured his team had the best record. He had improved his three point shooting. The only thing in his way was LeBron and the big three and he was still young. Didn't all the greats, if they're to be the best player on the team wait for several years before winning? MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Shaq etc. Let's hope he's totally healed and come back better than before.

[tsherkin]

^
I'm definitely talking long range shooting.

There was no 'Toine, LeBron, Mason, Nellie ball etc, at least it's rare. If Magic is new, he'd probably be a SF.

If Magic was a new player today, the only thing which would change is what we would call him.

In his own time, he was a primary ball-handler who did not guard the other team's small guard anyway. That's probably a point forward under the post-Pressey/Pippen lexicon, but it doesn't really change anything about the player himself, since he was still the primary initiator on offense and a volume playmaker/distributor.

Exactly, but then he'll probably have a guy like Chalmers on the team rather than Worthy.

Nah, not really. He had a small guard on his team anyway, be it Nixon or Scott.

[OvertimeNO]

^
I'm definitely talking long range shooting.

There was no 'Toine, LeBron, Mason, Nellie ball etc, at least it's rare. If Magic is new, he'd probably be a SF.

If Magic was a new player today, the only thing which would change is what we would call him.

In his own time, he was a primary ball-handler who did not guard the other team's small guard anyway. That's probably a point forward under the post-Pressey/Pippen lexicon, but it doesn't really change anything about the player himself, since he was still the primary initiator on offense and a volume playmaker/distributor.

Aye. I always imagine LeBron and Magic to be better comparisons to each other than anyone else. Just fiddle around with the sliders on jumping, scoring, and passing.

[ChokeFasncists]

If Magic was a new player today, the only thing which would change is what we would call him.

In his own time, he was a primary ball-handler who did not guard the other team's small guard anyway. That's probably a point forward under the post-Pressey/Pippen lexicon, but it doesn't really change anything about the player himself, since he was still the primary initiator on offense and a volume playmaker/distributor.

Exactly, but then he'll probably have a guy like Chalmers on the team rather than Worthy.

Nah, not really. He had a small guard on his team anyway, be it Nixon or Scott.

Well, Scott is more of an SG (Wade?) and Nixon was traded away because they wanted Magic to be the only one playing PG.

[crazy_me_87]

^
I'm definitely talking long range shooting.

There was no 'Toine, LeBron, Mason, Nellie ball etc, at least it's rare. If Magic is new, he'd probably be a SF.

If Magic was a new player today, the only thing which would change is what we would call him.

In his own time, he was a primary ball-handler who did not guard the other team's small guard anyway. That's probably a point forward under the post-Pressey/Pippen lexicon, but it doesn't really change anything about the player himself, since he was still the primary initiator on offense and a volume playmaker/distributor.

Aye. I always imagine LeBron and Magic to be better comparisons to each other than anyone else. Just fiddle around with the sliders on jumping, scoring, and passing.

Yeah Lebron is basically a more athletic more Scoring Version of Magic.. i always thought that is a better comparison then MJ... neither their Style of Play nor Personality match in alot of ways... Magic and Lebron are much more alike

but back to the point

I think you are lost if your PG is supposed to be youre franchise Player..

you can totally have guys like Chris Paul... but you need a proprtional better Team compared to other Top Players at the other 4 Positions..

its 24 years ago that IT was the clear Star as a PG on Detriot and won a Ring...
and before IT it was only Magic

we basically have only 2 true "Franchise" PGs in NBA History

with all this imense talent at PG right now the chances of changing that are better then ever.. but if PGs keep failing to deliver rings as clear cut Stars... with all this talent... that would be a clear sign

[ChokeFasncists]

How about Frazier and Big O?

[crazy_me_87]

How about Frazier and Big O?

both had HOF Big men at their side when winning Rings( Reed and Kareem) wich where arguably the better players

[ChokeFasncists]

Frazier actually won with Monroe? (PGs)

Though Alcindor (Kareem) dominated in both the regular season and Finals, guard Jon McGlocklin said, "Oscar was the key for us. He comes to play, he runs the team. He's it."

As a testament to Robertson's importance to the Bucks, in the season following his retirement the Bucks fell to last place in their division with a 38–44 record in spite of the continued presence of Abdul-Jabbar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Robertson

Well, but it makes sense of course.