Official Trade Thread: New Year, New Thread, New Laughs

[thamadkant]

Yeah Mozgov for Warren... Sounds fair. Mainly because Mozgov will get minutes whilst Warren is stuck behind Marcus and Tucker.

Plumlee would also need to be move though... Probably with a Thomas package

[Frank Lee]

Thats a pretty fair offer. It will naturally be met with rookie infatuation resistance...but its a fair offer.

Is TheMoz locked up next yr too?

On second thought.... Nuggs should get more.

[Saberestar]

Posted earlier but what would you guys want for Warren. Would you pull the trigger on a mozgov for Warren swap?

No thanks. I think he will be our starting SF next year, like Len is now our starting C in his second year in the NBA.

[Sunsdeuce]

Posted earlier but what would you guys want for Warren. Would you pull the trigger on a mozgov for Warren swap?

Mozgov is at his peak. He is a nothing special. Basically a joe kleine. On the flip side warren is a rookie with tons of up side. Also a great chance he will be starting in the coming years.

Moz puts up 9 and 9 on a bad team. That's not enticing.

I'm sure the Suns FO wouldn't even consider that deal.

[Safety Pickle]

Posted earlier but what would you guys want for Warren. Would you pull the trigger on a mozgov for Warren swap?

No thanks. I think he will be our starting SF next year, like Len is now our starting C in his second year in the NBA.

Len's only playing around 18-22 mins/game though isn't he? Not quite a true starting C

[NavLDO]

Thats a pretty fair offer. It will naturally be met with rookie infatuation resistance...but its a fair offer.

Is TheMoz locked up next yr too?

On second thought.... Nuggs should get more.

Yes, very true. I wouldn't trade Warren yet, unless it was for an All-NBA player, 25 years old or younger. We haven't seen enough of Warren to know if he can turn into an All-NBA level player or not, and I'm not interested in losing a player, essentially guessing on whether he will be better than the player we're trading him for. I don't like those type of situations, personally.

[Kerrsed]

Boy do some people over value our players.

[Sunsdeuce]

Boy do some people over value our players.

Don't know if it over valuing. It's just that moz is an average center. Think we would rather package warren in a deal that gets something of significance. Moz is a decent backup big, nothing more.

[batsmasher]

I really don't see any of our first or second year players getting packaged. McD is completely in love with all of them.

[Kerrsed]

Boy do some people over value our players.

Don't know if it over valuing. It's just that moz is an average center. Think we would rather package warren in a deal that gets something of significance. Moz is a decent backup big, nothing more.

I know it wasnt you, but saying you wouldnt give up a very late lotto pick (Warren) unless it was for an "All NBA player" is overvaluing.

I really don't see any of our first or second year players getting packaged. McD is completely in love with all of them.

Im sure there are also other players in the League that McD loves, it just depends on who he loves more and if he values winning now over losing now while spending time developing youngsters, because thats what it takes.

Philly has/had better more veteran players, but instead chose to develop their young guys (AKA Tanking). The Wolves are in the same boat. They could win alot more games than they have, but they decided to give the playing time to their young rookies and let them develop.

It makes me thing of the Rondo situation. A few years back, fans were talking about how we gave up Rondo (or the draft pick that was Rondo), and he became a great player. The way i look at it, Rondo would have never become the player he is if we did pick him. In Boston, he was on a s**t team, and they started him right away, giving him all the playing time he could. Thats the reason he developed into the all-star that he became. If we kept Rondo, he would have got little to zero playing time behind Nash, and would have maybe been sent down to the D-league. I dont think the D-League helps out as much as people think. Yeah they get some playing time, but its a whole different game, and against an inferior talent. D-League games usually offer up no defense and tend to look more like a rec league pick-up game, with each player out for himself.

You hardly ever see rookies turn out good or reach their potential on good teams, and thats because they dont get real playing time like they do when they are thrown into the s**t with their feet held to the fire. The NBA is all about fitment. Bad teams develop young players into good players, then they end up signing with better teams (or traded for) when they become FA's. Bad/Small market teams almost turn into "feeder teams" for the bigger markets because of this. You never know how a rookie will turn out until he is playing good/starters minutes on a bad team.

As long as we have Tucker/Morris, Warren will never get the minutes (real minutes, not garbage playing time) that it takes for him to reach his full potential.

[King4Day]

I'd rather keep Warren to replace Green. Whose minutes will Mozgov take? Len? No. Kief? No. They're all too talented to come off the bench.
I'd rather just move Green and change for whatever we can get and let Warren take over that roll and grow.

[batsmasher]

Im sure there are also other players in the League that McD loves, it just depends on who he loves more and if he values winning now over losing now while spending time developing youngsters, because thats what it takes.

I'm gonna take a stab and say he values his younger players much much more. McD got to pick the youngens himself and clearly sees a lot of potential in them (and values them more than the rest of the league). Aside from that, the line from McD has always been "this team is rebuilding" which roughly translates to "I will trade my older guys if I'm getting enough value back".

If you pick a guy and see potential in him, you're not going to trade him because his minutes aren't there. You're going to make minutes for him (usually by trading an older player). But that's not going to happen overnight. McD would rather milk a vet for all the value he's got (see: Dudley4Bled).

A youngen who misses out on consistent minutes for a couple of seasons isn't going to be that worse off, especially when getting D-League minutes. It's also worth noting that McD drafts younger prospects (Ennis 20, Archie 20, TJ 21, Len 21) so you could easily think of it as just a college extension.

Bottom line, as much as we'd like this team to be a playoff team, it's not a significant goal. We're geared up with future draft picks, one of the youngest teams in the league and still competing with the best. What more could you want from a rebuild?

[SSOL]

Um...you do not trade TJ Warren on a rookie contract.

[Bulk]

Why trade for Mozgov if Nurkic is already starting to outplay him? Once he fixes his foul rate issues, the starting C job is his for the taking. Check how he handled Marc Gasol tonight, very impressive for a rookie.

Although I liked the Warren pick @13 because of Len, Nurkic was the BPA in my opinion. Only time will tell if I was right but I sincerely hope I am not since I was also have high hopes for TJ. I don't think he will be traded by McD unless he manages to grab a star in the trade.

[NavLDO]

Boy do some people over value our players.

Don't know if it over valuing. It's just that moz is an average center. Think we would rather package warren in a deal that gets something of significance. Moz is a decent backup big, nothing more.

I know it wasnt you, but saying you wouldnt give up a very late lotto pick (Warren) unless it was for an "All NBA player" is overvaluing.

It makes me thing of the Rondo situation. A few years back, fans were talking about how we gave up Rondo (or the draft pick that was Rondo), and he became a great player. The way i look at it, Rondo would have never become the player he is if we did pick him. In Boston, he was on a s**t team, and they started him right away, giving him all the playing time he could. Thats the reason he developed into the all-star that he became. If we kept Rondo, he would have got little to zero playing time behind Nash, and would have maybe been sent down to the D-league. I dont think the D-League helps out as much as people think. Yeah they get some playing time, but its a whole different game, and against an inferior talent. D-League games usually offer up no defense and tend to look more like a rec league pick-up game, with each player out for himself.

You hardly ever see rookies turn out good or reach their potential on good teams, and thats because they dont get real playing time like they do when they are thrown into the s**t with their feet held to the fire. The NBA is all about fitment. Bad teams develop young players into good players, then they end up signing with better teams (or traded for) when they become FA's. Bad/Small market teams almost turn into "feeder teams" for the bigger markets because of this. You never know how a rookie will turn out until he is playing good/starters minutes on a bad team.

As long as we have Tucker/Morris, Warren will never get the minutes (real minutes, not garbage playing time) that it takes for him to reach his full potential.

I'm not "overvaluing" Warren...I'm saying, we don't know what we have in him to determine his value. The reason I threw out the "All-NBA player under 25" thing is that at least then, we can be pretty well assured that we didn't "sell" him for "peanuts". Do I think Warren is worth an All-NBA player? No, not at all, I'm saying, again, we can't know his true value since he has little to no true playing time.

And as far as rookies not turning out good or reaching their potential on good teams is narrow-sighted. And are we a "good team"? I don't think so, at least not yet. Even still, a journeyman talent like PJ is not going to prevent Warren from getting his due playing time, if warranted. And look at Markieff. We developed him, didn't we? He's not a world beater, but he is a quality starter. And how about Len? Plumlee was in front of him, but it was determined that Len gives us the best chance to win, and thus now he is the starter.

And that's just our team. Here are some other examples:

Derrick Rose--Bulls. A good team, and developed into a great player.

Kevin Durant--Supersonics/Thunder. Yep, another success story.

LeBron? Well, he developed in Clev., Then went to Miami, but the Cavs were good with him on the team.

How about those selected late lottery or later, you ask?

Paul George--Pacers--selected 10th. Good team, went to the playoffs in his first 4 seasons.

Joakim Noah--Bulls--selected 9th; Brook Lopez--Nets--selected 10th; Roy Hibbert--Pacers--selected 17th; Serge Ibaka--Thunder--selected 24th; Nicolas Batum--Trailblazers--selected 27th; DeMar DeRozan--Raptors--selected 9th; Taj Gibson--Bulls--selected 26th

So, plenty of good teams selected good players, developed them, and are now reaping the benefits. So it's not as "hardly ever" as you are portraying. But I'll say it for a 3rd time--I'm not saying that Warren is worth an All-NBA player, I'm just saying that we are 35 games into his rookie season, and he's shown flashes of being a good player. All I'm saying is that I would be disappointed if we traded Warren for a "meh" talent in Mozgov. Mozgoz was an undrafted player who's developed into an "ok" starter at Center, and you'd want to trade our most recent 14th overall selection, who's played all of 118 minutes in the NBA for him? Well, I say, no thank you, and I hope that McD would as well. I'd counter with Green, if they want a SF, or IT if they want a PG. Trading for a big would require us to "give up" some value, I presume, and IT and/or Green have reached their peak, so one of those would be preferred.

But IMO, we need to keep Warren, Ennis, Len, and to a smaller degree, Goodwin, at least for another couple of seasons, UNLESS we are packaging one or two to get an All-Star type player, so that is want I mean by not wanting to trade Warren for Mozgov, for we may find out that one or two of these guys will develop into a top-tier starter, and IMO, that's higher value than an average starter on a bad team.

[DirtyDez]

I consider Warren a top 2-3 asset. He easily has 20ppg potential and I think he'll reach that caliber of play within 3-4 years. That said he hasn't done anything yet. For a star under control you definitely include him in a package if you still have enough firepower to be contenders.

Trading TJ Warren straight up for anyone would surely be bad for us.

[Kerrsed]

And that's just our team. Here are some other examples:

Derrick Rose--Bulls. A good team, and developed into a great player.

Kevin Durant--Supersonics/Thunder. Yep, another success story.

LeBron? Well, he developed in Clev., Then went to Miami, but the Cavs were good with him on the team.

How about those selected late lottery or later, you ask?

Paul George--Pacers--selected 10th. Good team, went to the playoffs in his first 4 seasons.

Joakim Noah--Bulls--selected 9th; Brook Lopez--Nets--selected 10th; Roy Hibbert--Pacers--selected 17th; Serge Ibaka--Thunder--selected 24th; Nicolas Batum--Trailblazers--selected 27th; DeMar DeRozan--Raptors--selected 9th; Taj Gibson--Bulls--selected 26th

So, plenty of good teams selected good players, developed them, and are now reaping the benefits. So it's not as "hardly ever" as you are portraying. But I'll say it for a 3rd time--I'm not saying that Warren is worth an All-NBA player, I'm just saying that we are 35 games into his rookie season, and he's shown flashes of being a good player. All I'm saying is that I would be disappointed if we traded Warren for a "meh" talent in Mozgov. Mozgoz was an undrafted player who's developed into an "ok" starter at Center, and you'd want to trade our most recent 14th overall selection, who's played all of 118 minutes in the NBA for him? Well, I say, no thank you, and I hope that McD would as well. I'd counter with Green, if they want a SF, or IT if they want a PG. Trading for a big would require us to "give up" some value, I presume, and IT and/or Green have reached their peak, so one of those would be preferred.

But IMO, we need to keep Warren, Ennis, Len, and to a smaller degree, Goodwin, at least for another couple of seasons, UNLESS we are packaging one or two to get an All-Star type player, so that is want I mean by not wanting to trade Warren for Mozgov, for we may find out that one or two of these guys will develop into a top-tier starter, and IMO, that's higher value than an average starter on a bad team.

Did you seriously just post a bunch of #1 draft picks and compare them to our situation with Warren? Yeah......no, the Bulls were not that good before they got Rose (33-49). Neither were the Cav's (17-65) or Sonic's (31-51) when they got Lebron/Durant. They sucked and their reward for sucking so bad was a top pick in the draft. They became good after getting the #1 pick in the draft. Good teams usually dont have lotto picks (unless they traded for them).

I dont think you understand what i was trying to say. The team was bad, and those players MADE the team good. Same with many of the other "late/non lotto" picks that you posted. They were able to afford the luxury of getting those guys playing time because they (The Team) wernt good. Many of those teams also had holes in their depth, allowing the players to get meaningful minutes. Plugging those guys in to the line-ups made them good and also helped develop them. With Warren, he is stuck behind Tucker and Morris. Until we start cutting Tucker/Morris minutes, Warren will just be rotting, not really developing, lessening his potential. Same goes with Goodwin. The longer we have so many high priced guards, he wont see any court time (unless there is some freak accident and both Thomas and Green get injured).

We have had Goodwin for 2 years and he has played in 63 games. In those 63 games he has averaged 9 minutes per game. That number of Minutes per game drops a HUGE amount when you factor in all the games that he did not play in.

But i do agree that i would pass on the Warren for Mozgovf offer. At this point he really isnt that much better than Len and would just be taking minutes away from Len. Len needs as much floor time as possible to develop and reach his full potential (pretty much what i was trying to get at with my last post).

[bwgood77]

If someone wants to trade Warren for Mozgov they are out of their mind. I don't need a long post to say that.

I will add to that. Warren was better than Parker last year and on a far worse team. He was double and triple teamed. This guy could turn out to be OUR guy. I mean, in all likelihood, the only way we achieve premier status is through the draft, and you want to trade this guy for a guy in an effort for the 8 seed?

[NavLDO]

With Warren, he is stuck behind Tucker and Morris. Until we start cutting Tucker/Morris minutes, Warren will just be rotting, not really developing, lessening his potential. Same goes with Goodwin. The longer we have so many high priced guards, he wont see any court time (unless there is some freak accident and both Thomas and Green get injured).

But there's a big difference between Goodwin's and Warren's situation. Goodwin is stuck behind a 2 PG system as a SG, with 3 top-tier PGs in front of him.

Warren is behind one mediocre starter (who likely wouldn't start on over half the NBA teams) in PJ, and Marcus is more of a bench 4, even though he plays as a bench 3. Neither are rockstars, and it truly won't take much for him to win some meaningful minutes when he's ready.

Here's another way to look at it:

Goodwin (and might as well throw in Ennis as well) are behind a $14M per starter, a near $7M per 6th man (on a really good discount, BTW), and a guy that's going to get at least as much as EB's $14M per in FA this year.

Warren is behind a $5.5M per starter and a $5M per miscast bench/role player

Basically, what I'm saying is I'm not worried in the slightest about Warren getting his minutes. His minutes will come by season's end, I'm betting, or at the latest, at the start of next season.

Also consider that Warren was a late lotto pick, and Goodwin and Ennis were not.

I honestly don't see a big difference between Warren and a lot of those guys I listed as late/non-lotto picks. The teams they went to were decent teams and had journeyman level guys in front of them, initially, just like Tucker. I know many want to "inflate" Tucker's value, but the bottom line is, he is what he is...a $5.5M per level player that can be upgraded, and Warren is likely to be that upgrade. The only way he isn't, is if he's traded as part of a package for a Cousins-level player or better...I honestly can't see McD trading him straight up for a Center that's also about to be "upgraded on" by Nurkic. That's why I was against that trade proposal...I wasn't arguing that Warren is a star, just that he's an unknown at this point, and you don't trade a guy with potential, a guy who won the ACC player of the year award over a top 3 pick in the same draft, with a return of a journeyman-level Center who is already 28 and has already "peaked" his potential. Just because Warren was selected late lotto doesn't mean that that is where his talent dictated he should go. And one more point on Warren. He had the "bad luck" of being in a draft that was loaded at the top. In a "normal" draft, Warren is a top 10 talent, easily, IMO.

I don't think we are really at odds here, just that I chose to use a poor example, I guess, when trying to communicate what I felt Warren's value was. Sorry for the rambling on!!!

[thamadkant]

I consider Warren a top 2-3 asset. He easily has 20ppg potential and I think he'll reach that caliber of play within 3-4 years. That said he hasn't done anything yet. For a star under control you definitely include him in a package if you still have enough firepower to be contenders.

Trading TJ Warren straight up for anyone would surely be bad for us.

I too think so... atleast a 16-17ppg type scorer..
But he wont get there with Thomas, Dragic, Bledsoe, Green, Morris twins, Tucker taking shots... not to mention the forward rotation prevent him from getting minutes on the court.
He wont be outplaying Green, Tucker, Morris twins since those guys are getting real on court experience.. it will take Hornacek taking a risk on him by playing ahead of the usual players...

Or he can wait 1-2 seasons until the usual forwards decline and at the same time his body and NBA readiness improves.

Goodwin and Ennis is on the same boat...

Len is improving because he is GETTING real minutes... which is easy considering he has 1 other player to beat for minutes... who happens to be Plumlee...