Peaks Project #14

[trex_8063]

Thru post #100 (btw, scheduled time for this thread to close is Tuesday morning):

Julius Erving - 15
Stephen Curry - 15
Oscar Robertson - 14
Dwyane Wade - 14
Chris Paul - 5
Dirk Nowitzki - 4
Kevin Durant - 3
Jerry West - 3
Moses Malone - 2
Patrick Ewing - 2

Wow, it doesn't get much closer than that for the top spot!

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Spaceman, you've not yet stated your 3rd-ballot choice. I'd encourage you to do so; please make a new post stating your 3rd ballot as well as updating your orginal ballot post.

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Rebel, please specify the year you believe to be the peak season for your ballot choices (the player receives credit for the vote regardless, but we are trying to find consensus on which year is their best, too). Also, I'd appreciate it in the future if you bolded you ballots; just better ensures I don't miss it when I scrolling thru to tally the votes.
And lastly---as movies, particularly old movies are another passion of mine---are you actually a James Dean fan, or just thought it was a cool name/avatar?

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[Quotatious]

Wow, extremely tight results at the top...Four players with almost the same amount of votes. Can't wait to see who's going to emerge as the top guy who beats Dr J this time...

[theonlyclutch]

My ballot:

1st Ballot - 2015 Stephen Curry

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

2nd Ballot - 1964 Oscar Robertson

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

3rd Ballot - 2014 Kevin Durant

Reason: A bit of an odd choice, I know, but I believe this season is where he truly proved himself as both a complete playmaker and a GOAT-level scorer, from 2013-12-27 to 2014-02-13, Westbrook missed a total of 27 straight games, in these games, KD managed:
35.0/7.5/6.3 on 65.3% TS, 125 ORTG, the Thunder went 19-7 over this stretch.

He's the main reason that the Thunder were a 6.66 SRS team, with only 1 win less than in '13, despite Westbrook missing 36 games, won a well-deserved MVP even over a prime Lebron, while he was uneven in the playoffs, he still had his moments, torching the christ out of the Clippers, for 33.2/9.5/5.3 with 61% TS...

[mischievous]

My ballot:

1st Ballot - 2015 Stephen Curry

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

2nd Ballot - 1964 Oscar Robertson

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

3rd Ballot - 2014 Kevin Durant

Reason: A bit of an odd choice, I know, but I believe this season is where he truly proved himself as both a complete playmaker and a GOAT-level scorer, from 2013-12-27 to 2014-02-13, Westbrook missed a total of 27 straight games, in these games, KD managed:
35.0/7.5/6.3 on 65.3% TS, 125 ORTG, the Thunder went 19-7 over this stretch.

He's the main reason that the Thunder were a 6.66 SRS team, with only 1 win less than in '13, despite Westbrook missing 36 games, won a well-deserved MVP even over a prime Lebron, while he was uneven in the playoffs, he still had his moments, torching the christ out of the Clippers, for 33.2/9.5/5.3 with 61% TS...

Kd torched the Clippers because their perimeter defense was trash. Westbrook did the same thing. More credence should be put into the fact that KD underperformed against good defesnes like Memphis and the Spurs. This is despite having someone like a Westbrook to take pressure off. I think its alarming.

[Quotatious]

My ballot:

1st Ballot - 2015 Stephen Curry

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

2nd Ballot - 1964 Oscar Robertson

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

3rd Ballot - 2014 Kevin Durant

Reason: A bit of an odd choice, I know, but I believe this season is where he truly proved himself as both a complete playmaker and a GOAT-level scorer, from 2013-12-27 to 2014-02-13, Westbrook missed a total of 27 straight games, in these games, KD managed:
35.0/7.5/6.3 on 65.3% TS, 125 ORTG, the Thunder went 19-7 over this stretch.

He's the main reason that the Thunder were a 6.66 SRS team, with only 1 win less than in '13, despite Westbrook missing 36 games, won a well-deserved MVP even over a prime Lebron, while he was uneven in the playoffs, he still had his moments, torching the christ out of the Clippers, for 33.2/9.5/5.3 with 61% TS...

Kd torched the Clippers because their perimeter defense was trash. Westbrook did the same thing. More credence should be put into the fact that KD underperformed against good defesnes like Memphis and the Spurs. This is despite having someone like a Westbrook to take pressure off. I think its alarming.

Yeah, that's the reason I put '03 T-Mac slightly over '14 KD. In terms of regular season, it's a wash (both absolutely phenomenal - well, maybe a slight edge to KD, because he played more games - 81 to 75), but in the playoffs, McGrady performed better against a really strong defense, than Durant did (not to mention KD had more favorable rules, and a way better supporting cast - hell, Westbrook was probably as valuable as the entire '03 Magic roster, except for McGrady...).

[trex_8063]

My ballot:

1st Ballot - 2015 Stephen Curry

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

2nd Ballot - 1964 Oscar Robertson

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

3rd Ballot - 2014 Kevin Durant

Reason: A bit of an odd choice, I know, but I believe this season is where he truly proved himself as both a complete playmaker and a GOAT-level scorer, from 2013-12-27 to 2014-02-13, Westbrook missed a total of 27 straight games, in these games, KD managed:
35.0/7.5/6.3 on 65.3% TS, 125 ORTG, the Thunder went 19-7 over this stretch.

He's the main reason that the Thunder were a 6.66 SRS team, with only 1 win less than in '13, despite Westbrook missing 36 games, won a well-deserved MVP even over a prime Lebron, while he was uneven in the playoffs, he still had his moments, torching the christ out of the Clippers, for 33.2/9.5/5.3 with 61% TS...

Kd torched the Clippers because their perimeter defense was trash. Westbrook did the same thing. More credence should be put into the fact that KD underperformed against good defesnes like Memphis and the Spurs. This is despite having someone like a Westbrook to take pressure off. I think its alarming.

Clippers DRtg was -1.9 to league avg (9th of 30 teams). Matt Barnes (the primary on Durant) is a fair man defender, and Jared Dudley (who is actually a legitimately good defender) also saw a little time guarding Durant.

Calling their perimeter defense "trash" is clearly hyperbolic.

[PaulieWal]

Clippers DRtg was -1.9 to league avg (9th of 30 teams). Matt Barnes (the primary on Durant) is a fair man defender, and Jared Dudley (who is actually a legitimately good defender) also saw a little time guarding Durant.

Calling their perimeter defense "trash" is clearly hyperbolic.

I don't take anything away from KD's performance but the Clips' perimeter defense was bad. Otherwise how do you explain small Chris Paul being their best option on KD for stretches?

Barnes is okay as a defender, nothing special. IIRC Dudley was playing hurt that PS and Doc had told him to hold off his knee surgery (or was it back?) until after the playoffs.

I don't think it's a reach to say that the Clips' perimeter defense sucked. That certainly helped KD and GOATbrook dominate the Clips.

[SideshowBob]

Ballot

13. Erving 76 +6.75 (+5.00 O/+1.75 D)

14. Jabbar 77 +6.50 (+5.00 O/+1.50 D)

15. Wade 09 +6.25 (+5.00 O/+1.25 D)

16. Curry 15 +6.25 (+6.25 O/+0.00 D)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curry

Spoiler:

On Curry's improvements in 2015

Huh. He's showed a marked improvement in his already amazing ability to shoot threes off the dribble, which he also seems to be doing better (and more frequently), despite the fact that he's now got a reputation for it and defenses that face GS will often make it a top priority to adapt to this ability.

Most clearly though, he's gotten much better at utilizing his crafty dribble to get into the lane (2014: 2.5 FGA at the rim and 4.4 FTA, 2015: 3.2 FGA at the rim and 4.8 FTA, despite minute decline from 36.5 to 32.8), and when he's there he's finishing at an elite level now (68%, gotten really comfortable with that floater, and his touch around the rim even in traffic is outstanding), up from 63%, despite the fact that he's become clearly more of a threat to get there and defenses are now more concerned with trying to control his penetration. Ultimately, this means he's more frequently able to collapse/disrupt defenses in the way that typical drive and dish guys are (while notably being a far superior pullup threat than any of those guys), and this is in addition to his already strong playmaking.

Building on that end, while he's no Nash/Paul, he's a clearly superior to most of the drive/kick wings/lead guards; he's more able to probe and force rotations/disruptions with his on-ball movement and then exploit openings/matchup advantages. Overall, his playmaking is certainly a step higher from before, he's more sound at running the system, he's brought his turnovers under control, and from what I've seen, his presence of mind/creation vision when he's off the ball seems to be, at the least, commendable, at best pretty remarkable.

I mean I can keep going. It seems pretty off base to suggest that he hasn't really improved "that much" this year, when he's gotten better at everything.

Curry vs. Wade

Spoiler:

Kind of conflicted on Wade vs. Curry. I'm a lot more firm in my evaluation of Wade than Curry. Its easier to find parallels for 09 Wade, in the RS, his offense is similar to 09 Lebron's. Lebron IMO is a better playmaker, better 3pt shooter, and a deadlier finisher, but Wade's better at actually getting to the basket, has a far superior complimentary midrange game, and has better instincts attacking defenses. Wade also measures out similarly to a younger Jordan, with a slightly less refined post-game/jumpshot/etc. It's easy for me to gauge him on that end, and on defense as well (high activity level in the lanes, weak-side shot blocking, has the length and athleticism to cover the rim while also being a versatile/pesky man defender, strong rebounding out of the two spot, etc.). I penalize him a slight bit for being injured during the postseason but its minor.

Curry I have a tougher time with. I've championed him pretty high, and I can see my thoughts on him fluctuating in both directions. Am I too high on his defense? He looks good in the GS system but I don't know how well that might translate to less disciplined teams (I don't see the smarts outside of just sticking with the system). Am I too high (or low) on his offense? We've never seen someone have degree of gravity outside the arc before (on and off the ball), so its hard to find a comparison, even for the sake of a relativity comparison.

Also, I really like 2010 and 2011 from Wade; IMO he's not far off from 09 in those years.

[SideshowBob]

Given the direction of discussion, how would everyone hash out the peak offense of the following wings/smalls (and what years would you pick)?

Durant
Paul
Curry
Wade
Kobe
McGrady
Oscar
West
Nash
Westbrook

Also, on Dirk - I think I mentioned this before but I can't seem to find it right now - I think the consensus is that his offense is better in the 09-11 period than his earlier years. I agree with this as well, but does this make up the defensive advantage of 06 or 07?

[bondom34]

FWIW, just poking in to post because I see some dismissal of Durant's 14 season for playoff reasons. First, the fatigue factor was pretty clear as Westbrook wasn't there for most of the RS. Second, his offense was still largely fantastic. The bar was just set incredibly high, but his O rating by game:

Memphis (games 1-7):
114, 127, 94, 71, 87, 123, 127 (so the 3 middle games were off, 3 top tier games and 1 above average, given the defense of Memphis a solid series w/ an overall of 106)

LAC (1-6):
114, 127, 140, 106, 105, 121

SAS (1-6):
111, 80, 114, 126, 106, 94

So of the 19 games, 5 with an O rating sub 100. For comparison 15 Curry had the same amount in 21 games with series vs. NOP, Houston, LAC, and the Cavs without 2 of the 3 best players.

[KD35Brah]

My ballot:

1st Ballot - 2015 Stephen Curry

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

2nd Ballot - 1964 Oscar Robertson

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

3rd Ballot - 2014 Kevin Durant

Reason: A bit of an odd choice, I know, but I believe this season is where he truly proved himself as both a complete playmaker and a GOAT-level scorer, from 2013-12-27 to 2014-02-13, Westbrook missed a total of 27 straight games, in these games, KD managed:
35.0/7.5/6.3 on 65.3% TS, 125 ORTG, the Thunder went 19-7 over this stretch.

He's the main reason that the Thunder were a 6.66 SRS team, with only 1 win less than in '13, despite Westbrook missing 36 games, won a well-deserved MVP even over a prime Lebron, while he was uneven in the playoffs, he still had his moments, torching the christ out of the Clippers, for 33.2/9.5/5.3 with 61% TS...

Kd torched the Clippers because their perimeter defense was trash. Westbrook did the same thing. More credence should be put into the fact that KD underperformed against good defesnes like Memphis and the Spurs. This is despite having someone like a Westbrook to take pressure off. I think its alarming.

Yeah, that's the reason I put '03 T-Mac slightly over '14 KD. In terms of regular season, it's a wash (both absolutely phenomenal - well, maybe a slight edge to KD, because he played more games - 81 to 75), but in the playoffs, McGrady performed better against a really strong defense, than Durant did (not to mention KD had more favorable rules, and a way better supporting cast - hell, Westbrook was probably as valuable as the entire '03 Magic roster, except for McGrady...).

Why isn't the way Tmac ended the series a knock against him? The Magic were up 3-1 to the Pistons and Tmac wasn't as hot as he was in the first 3 games compared to his last 4(which ultimately cost them the series).

1st 3 games:

39ppg(67%, 119 Ortg), 6rpg, and 3apg(4TOpg)

Last 4 games:

26ppg(48% TS, 103 Ortg), 7rpg, 6apg(3.5TOpg)

That's a massive difference. I'm aware of how historically dominant the Pistons were defensively, but did they have a man defender on the level of Tony Allen to guard him for an entire series?

People refer to that series as if he kept up his level of play throughout the series, which is far from the truth.

[thizznation]

(copied from peaks project #13 thread)

Erving: 5.5 Offense | 2.0 Defense

Robertson: 6.0 Offense | 1.25 defense

Wade: 5.5 Offense | 1.5 Defense

Curry: 6.0 Offense | 1.0 Defense


Defensive Rating

Erving is the best defender out of the group. What separates Erving and Dwayne Wade the most is rebounding where Erving has a large edge. Erving is a lot longer and can provide better help defense than Wade. Wade is better at covering speedier guards however. I wouldn't really ask Erving to cover those guards anyways. If anything Erving seems to be more of a tweener that could definitely see minutes at the 4 today.

Curry isn't too far behind Wade but he is ultimately limited by his athleticism. While Curry is an underrated man defender and can still provide clever help defense, it's not in Wade's league. This versatility from Wade puts him over for me.

Robertson fits in the middle of this. There is some guestimation with Robertson but it appears that he was a great athlete, very high bbiq, and fantastic fundamentals. This with his great rebounding and I come up with him being a positive on defense.

Offensive Rating

Curry and Oscar's offensive scores are higher due to the proven ability to run a very high level offense through them. Erving and Wade still have high scores due to being able to score on volume and do it efficiently. Wade has the extra playmaking and point edge, Erving has an edge in offensive rebounds, turnovers, and efficiency. Both equal themselves out to a good extent in my opinion.

Foot note regarding Oscar's offense. If Oscar played in today's NBA he would have a 3 point game I believe. I entered in a career Free Throw % average of Robertson and applied a 20 points per game limit in season finder. These are some of the names that pop up. (http://tinyurl.com/ozmykrp). If you look at the top sections of the list, they all have a 3 point game, some of them very good ones.

1.1976 Erving
2. 1964 Robertson
3. Wade (Year Undecided, currently leaning towards 2009)

[thizznation]

Right, my argument is that Wade's RAPM would decrease steadily as he played with more and more talented teammates. And that did happen in real life, FWIW.

Wade already had 3 knee surgeries by 2012. As Wade's teammates got better his health got worse and he got older as well. What you are saying may have some truth to it, but it is accentuated due to his health and his game relying on his athleticism.

[mischievous]

My ballot:

1st Ballot - 2015 Stephen Curry

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

2nd Ballot - 1964 Oscar Robertson

Reasons here: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407753&p=44690462#p44690462

3rd Ballot - 2014 Kevin Durant

Reason: A bit of an odd choice, I know, but I believe this season is where he truly proved himself as both a complete playmaker and a GOAT-level scorer, from 2013-12-27 to 2014-02-13, Westbrook missed a total of 27 straight games, in these games, KD managed:
35.0/7.5/6.3 on 65.3% TS, 125 ORTG, the Thunder went 19-7 over this stretch.

He's the main reason that the Thunder were a 6.66 SRS team, with only 1 win less than in '13, despite Westbrook missing 36 games, won a well-deserved MVP even over a prime Lebron, while he was uneven in the playoffs, he still had his moments, torching the christ out of the Clippers, for 33.2/9.5/5.3 with 61% TS...

Kd torched the Clippers because their perimeter defense was trash. Westbrook did the same thing. More credence should be put into the fact that KD underperformed against good defesnes like Memphis and the Spurs. This is despite having someone like a Westbrook to take pressure off. I think its alarming.

Clippers DRtg was -1.9 to league avg (9th of 30 teams). Matt Barnes (the primary on Durant) is a fair man defender, and Jared Dudley (who is actually a legitimately good defender) also saw a little time guarding Durant.

Calling their perimeter defense "trash" is clearly hyperbolic.

Its not hyperbolic at all. There's a reason why KD and Westbrook both had their best series in the playoffs that year, against the Clippers. And please don't give me Matt Barnes, for the most part he had trouble with Leonard in the Spurs series last year.

Citing Drtg is a poor argument. That is a regular season stat, and shows team defense as a whole, not just for perimeter players. If you've followed anything that the Clippers do it should be pretty clear they aren't any good at defending the perimeter especially in the playoffs.

[thizznation]

2006 Heat: 108.7 ORTG
2009 Mavericks: 110.5 ORTG

There's a very clear difference in team ORTG in favor of the Mavs, the difference between the 06 Heat and the 10 Mavs is less (+0.5 in favor of Mavs), but doing the same thing to the 2010 Mavericks reveals an even worse offensive supporting cast

Josh Howard + Caron Butler (Both were barely hitting the ~100 ORTG/50% TS mark)
Jason Terry (6th Man)
J.J Barea (~20 MPG non-starter)
Shawn Marion (as a full-year starter one year after all the Wade supporters said he was washed up on the Heat..)

2006 Heat: +2.5 ORTG
2009 Mavericks: +2.2 ORTG
2010 Mavericks: +1.6 ORTG

Compared to league average the Heat were actually better and they ranked 7th on offense while the 2009 Mavs were 8th and the 2010 Mavs 10th. Also Marion wasn't the second option in Dallas and their offense wasn't much better than the 09 Heat with Marion and Beasley as the next best offensive players instead of reigning 6MOY Jason Terry.

You have got to be kidding me..
2009 Heat: 107.8 (-0.5)
2010 Mavs: 109.2 (+1.6)

That's a pretty significant difference to me....

Marion was also taking significantly more offensive usage in his time on the Mavs than in the Heat...

Wade had a 109 ORTG when on the floor in that postseason and a +21 offensive on/off. Dirk didn't have to lift his offense up to those levels because his supporting cast was better as I said in the next sentence. That comparison is not apples to apples.

This fascination with raw ORTG is funny.

Supporting casts are "equal" when they clearly were not.

RS on-court ORTGs are comparable but again it's about the PLAYOFFS when we would need more context to look at those specific series.

At their best both have reached high levels of ORTG but we can't give Wade credit for 2011 because he finally had two good offensive players around him.

2011 Wade on-court ORTG: 115.1 (+7.8)

Respectable, but what happens when Dirk had two good offensive players around him? (With the rather unrealistic implication that Mavs Nash + Finley=Lebron + Bosh on offense)

2001 Dirk on-court ORTG: 109.4 (+6.4)
2002 Dirk on-court ORTG: 114.6 (+10.1)
2003 Dirk on-court ORTG: 113.7 (+10.1)
2004 Dirk on-court ORTG: 113.9 (+11.0)

That's a pretty substantial difference right here...

You cherry picked a Wade that was not in his prime and that had to adjust to a new team with redundant skillsets that makes the team's talent level look overstated on paper rather than how it functions on the actual court. Giving Dirk a multi year representation where he was able to build upon team chemistry year after year where Wade only gets one year where he had to undergo major changes of roster is also extremely unfair.

[LA Bird]

Top 2 votes the same as before:

1. 2015 Curry

The-Power's post pretty much covers everything I had to say about Curry. However, I would like to add that Curry still doesn't get enough credit for his 4th quarter domination in the finals.

Most 4th Quarter Points in Final since 1991
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5 (61.1% TS)
2015 Stephen Curry 10.8 (75.1% TS)
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7 (55.1% TS)
1998 Michael Jordan 10.6 (50.6% TS)
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3 (68.0% TS)
1993 Michael Jordan 10.3
2015 Lebron James 10.2 (51.7% TS)

On a team level, this resulted in Warriors crushing the Cavs in the 4th quarter even though they were still evenly matched up through the first 3 quarters.

Warriors (2015 Finals)
Q1~Q3: 101.5 ORtg, 100.5 DRtg. Total: +1.0
Q4: 128.8 ORtg, 105.0 DRtg. Total: +23.8

2. 2009 Wade

Wade is as good as anybody in penetrating, forcing the defense to collapse and then dishing to open shooters. In 2009, he also had his best shooting season before the Big 3 era. Put it all together and you have one of the GOAT offensive season from a 2-guard, especially after the All-Star break with averages of 34/5/8 on 61% TS. Defensively, Wade isn't really DPOY caliber but he is better than Dr J who is getting significantly overrated defensively just because of huge steal and block numbers. And FWIW, here's the adjusted numbers...

09 Wade: 3.0 steal%, 2.8 block%
76 Dr J: 2.9 steal%, 2.7 block%

3. 2011 Dirk

The best offensive big left. The GOAT mid-range shooter and these numbers posted earlier showed how great he was as a post up scorer:

Post-up Derived offense: 1.154 PPP on 494 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.170 PPP on 389 poss

IIRC, there was also a post somewhere on Dirk's spacing effect and Mavs' individual efficiency differences with and without Dirk but I can't find it just yet. A slightly above average defensive player which IMO is good enough for this placing given his unique offensive gravity.


I have been quite busy the last couple weeks so I understand if my vote doesn't count because the write-ups aren't detailed enough. Looking forward to spending more time on the project from next round onward.

[Dr Spaceman]

My 3rd ballot goes to Jerry West. I think he was a better player than Lscar, and I think they are both worthy candidates at this spot. As to the year, I'd lean 69, but I acknowledge he may have years where he performed better through the regular season. His 1969 playoffs, and especially Finals, though, were unreal.

Final ballot:
1. Stephen Curry 2015
2. Dirk Nowitzki 2011
3. Jerry West 1969

[Dr Spaceman]

Also, on Dirk - I think I mentioned this before but I can't seem to find it right now - I think the consensus is that his offense is better in the 09-11 period than his earlier years. I agree with this as well, but does this make up the defensive advantage of 06 or 07?

I don't think there is much defensive slippage, if any, apart from the expected lower regular season effort levels. I rated his playoff defense equivalent to pretty much any season of his earlier prime (I have the 02-05 period closer to a +1.0, with 06-11 around a +0.5). I think 05 was his best defensive season, but we're talking razor thin margins. If there is any real defensive slippage in his late prime, it's not showing up in any metrics we track and it's not very noticeable. 2012 is where his defensive decline truly started, and by 2014 he was pretty much a liability, but in 11 he was still the same solid Dirk.

I think whatever he lost in athleticism was made up for by the skills he picked up- holding position, footwork, swiping at the ball.

[Dr Spaceman]

Given the direction of discussion, how would everyone hash out the peak offense of the following wings/smalls (and what years would you pick)?

Durant
Paul
Curry
Wade
Kobe
McGrady
Oscar
West
Nash
Westbrook

1. 2015 Curry/2007 Nash (tie, maybe the slightest edge to Nash but Curry makes it up defensively)
2. Nowitzki 2011 (you didn't include him but for the sake of this discussion I have him here)
3. Jerry West 1969/Chris Paul 2015 (undecided on the order here, and I like current Paul more than 08)
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Dwayne Wade 2009
6. Kevin Durant 2014
7. Kobe Bryant 2006 (best offensive season, though I'd vote 08 or even 01 as his overall peak)
8. McGrady 2003
9. Westbrook 2015

I'd probably put 2015 James Harden right around Kobe's level, maybe a little above.

[E-Balla]

I'm sorry I'm still not seeing how Curry fits in here when his team is so amazing the regular season was a breeze and his postseason performance was so disappointing compared to some of the others left (it was great but not top 15 all time great). Again his team offensively featured:
Klay Thompson (22/3/3 on 59 TS)
Draymond Green (12/8/4 on 54 TS)
Harrison Barnes (10/5/1 on 57 TS)
Iguodala (8/3/3 in GS but 13/5/5 in Denver on 52 TS)
Andrew Bogut (10/12/4 per 36)
Shaun Livingston (6/2/3 and started for a PS team last year)
David Lee (8/5/2 - was 18/9/3 last year and has had a 19+ PER all but 3 seasons)
Mo Speights (24/10/2 per 36 on 54 TS)
Barbosa (17/3/4 per 36 - last time he was healthy put up 18/3/3 but was inefficient)

I'm sorry but Curry has a bench full of proven players and a perfect system for his skill set. I feel like Curry's perfect situation is getting him brownie points for his impact when his fit is so perfect (same way I felt about Nash who is a similar type of player).