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MJallday59 wrote:Bismack can be our Ben Wallace. The guy just has soooo much heart. With the right guys around him it could be contagious.

Maybe that's Hennigan blueprint? The 04 Pistons?

Billups -
Hamilton -
Prince - AG
Rasheed - Ibaka
Wallace - Bismack ?

This is interesting but that gap next to Billups might as well be a chasm.

Billups was outstanding around that time and an MVP contender (along with Finals MVP). Where the hell do we find one of those other than through the draft?

npiper17 wrote:

MJallday59 wrote:Bismack can be our Ben Wallace. The guy just has soooo much heart. With the right guys around him it could be contagious.

Maybe that's Hennigan blueprint? The 04 Pistons?

Billups -
Hamilton -
Prince - AG
Rasheed - Ibaka
Wallace - Bismack ?

This is interesting but that gap next to Billups might as well be a chasm.

Billups was outstanding around that time and an MVP contender (along with Finals MVP). Where the hell do we find one of those other than through the draft?

It's really a comparison that holds no weight at all. Biyombo isn't half the player Ben Wallace was, Serge is nowhere near Rasheed, and Gordon has a ways to go before he's Prince (though I think he could end up better than prince in the long term). And then there's the two positions that don't even have comps (hezonja could definitely become a rip level player with time though)

So far with what he is showing and seeing as how other "overpaid" bigs are playing... then..

YES...so far he is..

Because of Biyombo's game:

Orlando is in a playoff slot !!!!

npiper17 wrote:

MJallday59 wrote:Bismack can be our Ben Wallace. The guy just has soooo much heart. With the right guys around him it could be contagious.

Maybe that's Hennigan blueprint? The 04 Pistons?

Billups -
Hamilton -
Prince - AG
Rasheed - Ibaka
Wallace - Bismack ?

This is interesting but that gap next to Billups might as well be a chasm.

Billups was outstanding around that time and an MVP contender (along with Finals MVP). Where the hell do we find one of those other than through the draft?

Well... we actually acquired one of those via trade for Tariq Abdul-Wahad, Chris Gatling, and Omar Cook.

Third from the left in the first row:


Unfortunately, we renounced an option year on his contract before he ever played for Orlando. He had already been considered a draft bust by this time.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/drp/nba/magic/sites/default/files/styles/main_gallery_photo__480_tall/public/legacy/photos/9900_102213.jpg?itok=5pPjz29c

The lesson in this is that a player's reputation doesn't equate to their actual value on the court. Nobody in Orlando cared when Billups was released in the pursuit of Duncan and Hill.

There are players littered across rosters around the NBA that haven't been given the opportunities or time to demonstrate their real potential or value. It is a market inefficiency that good general managers can exploit. It wasn't too long ago that it seemed like Hennigan was capable of exploiting this inefficiency, but now it seems that we only give these talents away.

The Effect wrote:

spearsy23 wrote:

The Effect wrote:No but what exactly are planning on getting in return??
Do you really think we are gonna trade him and get a Jimmy Butler, Paul George or Gordon Hayward?

Especially with the way Hennigan makes trades, he will trade him for a player who is on a rookie deal on someones bench who is atleast a year away from being productive, or give him away for a scrub or two who have expiring contracts that the coach likes, so who do you have in mind for that trade?

I don't think that's a comprehensive list of players that are better than Jeff green.

Aaron Gordon is better than Jeff Green, Mario is better than jeff green

Being better than jeff green doesnt mean ****

But again, tell me you think we can trade vuc for that is going to make this a playoff team this year (or next year)

With Hennigans past trades, i would say our target would be someone like stanley johnson in something like a vuc+Mario for Johnson and cap filler (morris, baynes?). Pistons wouldnt do it, but thats the type of deal hennigan would be after

How so?
I wish he was, but he isnt

Xatticus wrote:

npiper17 wrote:

MJallday59 wrote:Bismack can be our Ben Wallace. The guy just has soooo much heart. With the right guys around him it could be contagious.

Maybe that's Hennigan blueprint? The 04 Pistons?

Billups -
Hamilton -
Prince - AG
Rasheed - Ibaka
Wallace - Bismack ?

This is interesting but that gap next to Billups might as well be a chasm.

Billups was outstanding around that time and an MVP contender (along with Finals MVP). Where the hell do we find one of those other than through the draft?

Well... we actually acquired one of those via trade for Tariq Abdul-Wahad, Chris Gatling, and Omar Cook.

Third from the left in the first row:


Unfortunately, we renounced an option year on his contract before he ever played for Orlando. He had already been considered a draft bust by this time.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/drp/nba/magic/sites/default/files/styles/main_gallery_photo__480_tall/public/legacy/photos/9900_102213.jpg?itok=5pPjz29c

The lesson in this is that a player's reputation doesn't equate to their actual value on the court. Nobody in Orlando cared when Billups was released in the pursuit of Duncan and Hill.

There are players littered across rosters around the NBA that haven't been given the opportunities or time to demonstrate their real potential or value. It is a market inefficiency that good general managers can exploit. It wasn't too long ago that it seemed like Hennigan was capable of exploiting this inefficiency, but now it seems that we only give these talents away.

Yes Billups' brief Magic stay was often highlighted in those numerous games in the 00s when he killed us time after time. I still remember Rashard Lewis, banked game winner that hit the backboard, front of the rim and rattled in to beat the Pistons for the first time in God knows how long.

I kind of give John Gabriel a pass for releasing Chauncey though. I think most would have done the same if it presented an opportunity to pursue Duncan and Hill.

npiper17 wrote:Yes Billups' brief Magic stay was often highlighted in those numerous games in the 00s when he killed us time after time. I still remember Rashard Lewis, banked game winner that hit the backboard, front of the rim and rattled in to beat the Pistons for the first time in God knows how long.

I kind of give John Gabriel a pass for releasing Chauncey though. I think most would have done the same if it presented an opportunity to pursue Duncan and Hill.

Yeah. It wasn't intended as a critique of Gabriel or the organization at the time, but rather to point out that pretty much team in the league could've acquired Billups at a bargain price if they had the foresight to predict his future. We certainly could've had Isaiah Thomas before he was snatched up by Boston. The draft isn't the only place to find them.

Biyombo will be worth every penny when we get into the playoffs and he's a difference maker. So far he's doing EXACTLY what he was brought in here to do.

spearsy23 wrote:

npiper17 wrote:

MJallday59 wrote:Bismack can be our Ben Wallace. The guy just has soooo much heart. With the right guys around him it could be contagious.

Maybe that's Hennigan blueprint? The 04 Pistons?

Billups -
Hamilton -
Prince - AG
Rasheed - Ibaka
Wallace - Bismack ?

This is interesting but that gap next to Billups might as well be a chasm.

Billups was outstanding around that time and an MVP contender (along with Finals MVP). Where the hell do we find one of those other than through the draft?

It's really a comparison that holds no weight at all. Biyombo isn't half the player Ben Wallace was, Serge is nowhere near Rasheed, and Gordon has a ways to go before he's Prince (though I think he could end up better than prince in the long term). And then there's the two positions that don't even have comps (hezonja could definitely become a rip level player with time though)

Again, I'm just tossing around ideas here. Trying to figure out the game plan & based on our roster, an assistant GM who LOVED the championship Pistons..it kinda makes sense.

The OKC 2013 Serge (The one Rob thought he was getting) would have been a pretty close comparison to Sheed.

Rob probably thinks Evan can be a Rip Hamilton type..& I'll bet he's about to move Payton for Jrue Holiday. Maybe he waits until the offseason? Idk

Vooch would even be our Mehmet Okur. (Remember..they want Vooch to start shooting 3's)

Xatticus wrote:

npiper17 wrote:Yes Billups' brief Magic stay was often highlighted in those numerous games in the 00s when he killed us time after time. I still remember Rashard Lewis, banked game winner that hit the backboard, front of the rim and rattled in to beat the Pistons for the first time in God knows how long.

I kind of give John Gabriel a pass for releasing Chauncey though. I think most would have done the same if it presented an opportunity to pursue Duncan and Hill.

Yeah. It wasn't intended as a critique of Gabriel or the organization at the time, but rather to point out that pretty much team in the league could've acquired Billups at a bargain price if they had the foresight to predict his future. We certainly could've had Isaiah Thomas before he was snatched up by Boston. The draft isn't the only place to find them.

Totally agree here. I remember the Thomas deal going down at the deadline and being annoyed we hadn't stepped in and offered more than the average package the Celtics offered. I didn't think he'd necessarily become an all star but I did think he could be a valuable piece.

Re looking elsewhere besides the draft; again one of my biggest criticisms of this front office under Rob. Four years to find that diamond in the rough - an undrafted guy or a dleague guy - not someone to turn things completely around but a useful contributor and we haven't done it. I mean, Jonathan Gibson looks like yet another team has found someone from nothing (though granted it's only been 2 games).

PennytoShaq wrote:

tiderulz wrote:

BadMofoPimp wrote:
I think Biz is better than Evan and Noah for the long term. He is just still learning the game. After a season or two, I feel we may see an improved Biz who could last 30mpg without being too much of a detriment to the team.

if you are that raw and still learning the game after 5 years in the league, your ceiling isnt very high

Yeah but again he was playing further away from the basket for 4 years. He just was moved to C full time midway through last year. Before that he was almost always deployed as a 4. Playing the 5 in a modern offense is a lot different. You hold down the paint full time and have to be a great roller. He has shown that he can grow into that role. I'd be a lot more concerned if we were playing him at the 4 most of the time.

Not sure what you are talking about. Every single game I saw he played Center for Charlotte and Toronto.

tiderulz wrote:

PennytoShaq wrote:There is tons of evidence online (besides watching games) that Biyombo playing PF and how he was developed into a C. I'm not going to dig more up since you will twist it to fit your argument. Just read about how TOR worked with him to end up being the backup 5 that broke out during the playoffs least year. Or don't. But regardless, if you think the link I posted paints him as logging a lot of minutes at C for CHA, than we aren't going to agree on this.

The quote you highlighted only enforces my point btw. Especially if you read the parts before what you underlined.

what, that he played center, and that they tried him at PF? i dont disagree with that view. You made it sound like he has not been playing center at all since entering the league. His skills require him to be at center, otherwise his team will be playing 4 on 5 on offense.

I think on Offense he played Center and Defense he guarded the opposing PF's.

spearsy23 wrote:

npiper17 wrote:

MJallday59 wrote:Bismack can be our Ben Wallace. The guy just has soooo much heart. With the right guys around him it could be contagious.

Maybe that's Hennigan blueprint? The 04 Pistons?

Billups -
Hamilton -
Prince - AG
Rasheed - Ibaka
Wallace - Bismack ?

This is interesting but that gap next to Billups might as well be a chasm.

Billups was outstanding around that time and an MVP contender (along with Finals MVP). Where the hell do we find one of those other than through the draft?

It's really a comparison that holds no weight at all. Biyombo isn't half the player Ben Wallace was, Serge is nowhere near Rasheed, and Gordon has a ways to go before he's Prince (though I think he could end up better than prince in the long term). And then there's the two positions that don't even have comps (hezonja could definitely become a rip level player with time though)

Keep in mind those Pistons players outside of Prince didn't hit their prime abilities until they were in their mid 20's. Thus, they were question marks in their early careers just like these young Magic players. They should not be expected play like All-Stars this early in their careers.

Biz is bringing exactly what we needed: Setting great screens, blocks, rebounds, immense energy, can guard just about anyone off switches, the man swings momentum and gets our dead lower bowl crowd going.

There's a few worries, and we knew about them to begin with:
1. He's not tall or wide enough to handle your traditional backdown bigs (Whiteside, Cousins, etc.). Neither is Ibaka. This is where Vooch has been fantastic. Nik's got the lower base to defend those guys well.

2. Offense. He's like a drunk toddler sometimes when he gathers and tries to go up. That leads to him either getting fouled or blocked instead of a quick dunk or lay-up. He also falls very awkwardly. Very off-balanced at times and I'm worried that's going to lead something bad down the road. Sometimes that chaotic body movements are to his advantage, but a lot of times not.
His free throws are not bad (51.5 FT%, yes, but 5-of-7 last night), but his field goal shooting is a complete crapshoot in regards to what the result of one of his shots might be. But he's been very disciplined in recent games and knows his limitations for the most part. You'll still get 1 or 2 'what the **** was that?' type of shots. I can live with that. We need to get him rolling more to the basket (I can say that for Aaron Gordon as well) for alley oops.

He's living up to that money, and that contract will only look better in the summer.

tiderulz wrote:

LBPTarHeel27 wrote:His value really showed in the playoffs last year. There are a handful of players who's value doesn't always show up on the stat sheet. They don't truly show their impact until the games really count. Tristan Thompson is another example.

People hear 72 million and expect a full stat sheet every night. That isn't the only gauge of value. Unfortunately for us, we may not be in a position to truly tap in to his value. That isn't his fault.

you have to value duirng the regulare season to make the playoffs

Replied on your phone while driving? I think I follow though...but it's essentially what I was saying. If anyone thought Biyombo would be a piece that propelled us to a perennial playoff team, they were kidding themselves. No one should have expected anything more than a role player. He is just a top tier role player who has abilities and intangibles that show best in close games.

He isn't going to dominate a game but he is going to get you that key stop you need to close out a close game.

AdamTheGreek wrote:Biz is bringing exactly what we needed: Setting great screens, blocks, rebounds, immense energy, can guard just about anyone off switches, the man swings momentum and gets our dead lower bowl crowd going.

This is why Bizmack should be our starter, he just does so much for us without having to score. Aside from the rebounding, Biyombo is everything Vucevic is not.

AdamTheGreek wrote:There's a few worries, and we knew about them to begin with:
1. He's not tall or wide enough to handle your traditional backdown bigs (Whiteside, Cousins, etc.). Neither is Ibaka. This is where Vooch has been fantastic. Nik's got the lower base to defend those guys well.

Biyombo's size is not that big of an issue for me. The amount of impactful traditional backdown bigs are pretty few and far between.

AdamTheGreek wrote:2. Offense. He's like a drunk toddler sometimes when he gathers and tries to go up. That leads to him either getting fouled or blocked instead of a quick dunk or lay-up. He also falls very awkwardly. Very off-balanced at times and I'm worried that's going to lead something bad down the road. Sometimes that chaotic body movements are to his advantage, but a lot of times not.
His free throws are not bad (51.5 FT%, yes, but 5-of-7 last night), but his field goal shooting is a complete crapshoot in regards to what the result of one of his shots might be. But he's been very disciplined in recent games and knows his limitations for the most part. You'll still get 1 or 2 'what the **** was that?' type of shots. I can live with that. We need to get him rolling more to the basket (I can say that for Aaron Gordon as well) for alley oops.

Yeah, he's a pretty bad scorer but for all of the other things he does that you mentioned earlier more than makes up for it. Heck, his frequent defensive plays are sort of his offense because of how those plays turn into transition opportunities for his teammates. For the amount of stuff Biyombo does for Orlando, his scoring is a bonus.

BadMofoPimp wrote:

PennytoShaq wrote:

tiderulz wrote:
if you are that raw and still learning the game after 5 years in the league, your ceiling isnt very high

Yeah but again he was playing further away from the basket for 4 years. He just was moved to C full time midway through last year. Before that he was almost always deployed as a 4. Playing the 5 in a modern offense is a lot different. You hold down the paint full time and have to be a great roller. He has shown that he can grow into that role. I'd be a lot more concerned if we were playing him at the 4 most of the time.

Not sure what you are talking about. Every single game I saw he played Center for Charlotte and Toronto.

I already posted an article about him playing PF in CHA. The coach has talked about how they tried to develop him there as well. He didn't move full time to C until he played in TOR and that was more in his last year.

LBPTarHeel27 wrote:

tiderulz wrote:

LBPTarHeel27 wrote:His value really showed in the playoffs last year. There are a handful of players who's value doesn't always show up on the stat sheet. They don't truly show their impact until the games really count. Tristan Thompson is another example.

People hear 72 million and expect a full stat sheet every night. That isn't the only gauge of value. Unfortunately for us, we may not be in a position to truly tap in to his value. That isn't his fault.

you have to value duirng the regulare season to make the playoffs

Replied on your phone while driving? I think I follow though...but it's essentially what I was saying. If anyone thought Biyombo would be a piece that propelled us to a perennial playoff team, they were kidding themselves. No one should have expected anything more than a role player. He is just a top tier role player who has abilities and intangibles that show best in close games.

He isn't going to dominate a game but he is going to get you that key stop you need to close out a close game.

yeah, in car not great. But $17mil for a role player, gah, is way too much. I think similar to Rashard Lewis, we outbid ourselves on him, truly believe we should have been able to get him at a lower amount.

PennytoShaq wrote:

BadMofoPimp wrote:

PennytoShaq wrote:
Yeah but again he was playing further away from the basket for 4 years. He just was moved to C full time midway through last year. Before that he was almost always deployed as a 4. Playing the 5 in a modern offense is a lot different. You hold down the paint full time and have to be a great roller. He has shown that he can grow into that role. I'd be a lot more concerned if we were playing him at the 4 most of the time.

Not sure what you are talking about. Every single game I saw he played Center for Charlotte and Toronto.

I already posted an article about him playing PF in CHA. The coach has talked about how they tried to develop him there as well. He didn't move full time to C until he played in TOR and that was more in his last year.

you posted an article about trying to move him to PF, hence he was already playing center. Thought i agree with Mofo, he was probably playing PF on defense, switching when Al was overmatched, but definitely at center on offense.