Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships

[dabonett]

If you want to win you take someone with that mentality. Like in every field and work, you go for someone obsessed.
It’s not the millennial’s mentality ( ie the harvesting mentality). That’s why Kobe is so loved by older guys with blue collar mentality ( due before right).
In the white butter PlayStation global apparent friendship world, MJ and Kobe are not liked.
Lbj and kd chasers are

[-Sammy-]

Spoiler:

But thats what im saying....u are under rating the impact of a player to winning games.

You're taking the analogy too literally. I'm not saying that each player factors into his team's success to the same degree that each soldier does his military's; I'm saying they both factor the same way.

It really baffles me how u think that players dont have impact on championships

Please direct me to the post where I wrote that players don't impact championships.

Your exaggerated example is really confusing ur stance.

If u think that a balanced approach on the approach and need to look at all aspect (including championships) rather than just rings alone....then im fine with that.

Ur example made it seem like u think that a player has minimum or close to no impact of the outcome of a game

Quoting myself:

Playing is part of winning-- the most important part, to be sure--, but to say that the only thing that matters is what happens between the lines is to ignore reality, which is that what happens in the realms of coaching, training, scouting, and healing creates what's put in between the lines to do the playing.

I think you just took my soldier analogy a little too literally, that's all. The players are the most important part of the team, by far; I'm just saying that they aren't the only part, and thus not the only factor in winning a title.

[Lalouie]

So Phil is saying Bill Russell is the GOAT?

He is,,, and no one should have a problem with it

[bwgood77]

Of course Phil is going to say that with all his rings.

[euroleague]

Spoiler:

The personnel who are assembled specifically to create and sustain the unit that does the winning is the team.

It's worth noting that the viewpoint I'm articulating is actually the official stance of the NBA, not Sammy's uninformed opinion; this is why the coaching staff, trainers, medical staff, scouting and analysis teams, and front-office executives all get championship rings when a team wins. The NBA awards 40+ rings to each champion, and all 40+ rings are exactly the same. The NBA's viewpoint is my viewpoint.





This is basketball-reference.com's list of the last 10 NBA champions. You'll notice that Durant's name doesn't appear on this list; nor does Curry's or any other player's. According to BBRef.com, then, the Golden State Warriors, not KD and Curry, are the NBA champions.

If you consult NBA'com, which is the official website of the league, you'll find that they agree with BBRef.com. Respectfully, I'm going with the NBA's take on this.

I'm also going with the nba take... if you click on the winners name you see the team - and the coach has an HM, as does the GM

I don't follow you.

You sent a picture. The picture says the champions are "golden state warriors" - which is a link. Click the link to find KD is the champion, as he is on the 'team roster'...

[-Sammy-]

Spoiler:

I'm also going with the nba take... if you click on the winners name you see the team - and the coach has an HM, as does the GM

I don't follow you.

You sent a picture. The picture says the champions are "golden state warriors" - which is a link. Click the link to find KD is the champion, as he is on the 'team roster'...

That's my point-- you won't find the phrase "2016-2017 NBA Champion: Kevin Durant" anywhere on BBRef.com, or NBA.com, or any other reputable info source. He's part of the team, but he himself is not the champion, because the NBA champion isn't ever a person-- it's a team. The NBA champion is always a team, because this is a team league.

[zimpy27]

Spoiler:

No, KD is on the championship team. 'The champion' is a singular noun-- if KD is the champion, then his teammates cannot also be the champion unless there are 12+ the champions, which obviously doesn't make sense. If there are 12+ champions, why aren't there 12+ Larry O'Brien trophies?

Because there's only one champion, and the champion is the Golden State Warriors. KD is part of the championship team, but he is not himself 'the champion.' Kevin Durant didn't beat an entire basketball team-- another basketball team did. The O'Brien wasn't awarded to Kevin Durant-- it was awarded to Golden State.



If everything you've written here is true (which it is), then this



can't be true. You cannot simultaneously acknowledge the importance of all those other people and dismiss them as not being part of the winning process.

Take Kevin Durant off the Warriors and they don't win 2017. But take Durant's strength and cardiovascular endurance away, take away his precision shooting the ball, take away the plays he's been trained to run with the other players (and take their skills, health, and athleticism away as well-- and while we're at it, take away those players, who aren't being drafted or scouted or traded for or paid without a front office, scouts, analysts, and a GM), and the Warriors aren't winning, either.

You've gone too meta for this board.

GOAT isn't really measured by rings but it is a form of evidence. I can't imagine making a case for a GOAT if they never helped a team win a championship.

On this, we agree completely. To my way of thinking, saying that rings aren't ANY kind of factor in determining GOATs is as wrongheaded as saying that rings are the ONLY factor. What i'm calling for is balance in weighing factors.

Correct. I mean it was common sense to look it at that way in the old days. Simply because Russell won so many while Wilt was the more dominant player. Then KAJ comes in as the best player even going through a championship drought.

Jordan was declared the GOAT after he won 3 rings because of his per game stats while carrying his team, while KAJ had him on rings and MVPs. Truly the GOAT is more about how the individual plays the game of basketball. I don't know how people conflated a team award with an individual achievement to the degree they have.

[euroleague]

I don't follow you.

You sent a picture. The picture says the champions are "golden state warriors" - which is a link. Click the link to find KD is the champion, as he is on the 'team roster'...

That's my point-- you won't find the phrase "2016-2017 NBA Champion: Kevin Durant" anywhere on BBRef.com, or NBA.com, or any other reputable info source. He's part of the team, but he himself is not the champion, because the NBA champion isn't ever a person-- it's a team. The NBA champion is always a team, because this is a team league.

Yes you will. Click on Kevin Durant's profile, then look in bio. wtf...

[Fable]

That's my point-- you won't find the phrase "2016-2017 NBA Champion: Kevin Durant" anywhere on BBRef.com, or NBA.com, or any other reputable info source. He's part of the team, but he himself is not the champion, because the NBA champion isn't ever a person-- it's a team. The NBA champion is always a team, because this is a team league.

This thread has so many dumb statements but arguing that individual basketball players are not champions but their teams are is one of the dumbest things I ever read on realgm. Kevin Durant is the 2016-2017 NBA Champion.

[-Sammy-]

You sent a picture. The picture says the champions are "golden state warriors" - which is a link. Click the link to find KD is the champion, as he is on the 'team roster'...

That's my point-- you won't find the phrase "2016-2017 NBA Champion: Kevin Durant" anywhere on BBRef.com, or NBA.com, or any other reputable info source. He's part of the team, but he himself is not the champion, because the NBA champion isn't ever a person-- it's a team. The NBA champion is always a team, because this is a team league.

Yes you will. Click on Kevin Durant's profile, then look in bio. wtf...

Please direct me to the part of Kevin Durant's profile that reads '2016-2017 NBA Champion: Kevin Durant.'

[euroleague]

That's my point-- you won't find the phrase "2016-2017 NBA Champion: Kevin Durant" anywhere on BBRef.com, or NBA.com, or any other reputable info source. He's part of the team, but he himself is not the champion, because the NBA champion isn't ever a person-- it's a team. The NBA champion is always a team, because this is a team league.

Yes you will. Click on Kevin Durant's profile, then look in bio. wtf...

Please direct me to the part of Kevin Durant's profile that reads '2016-2017 NBA Champion: Kevin Durant.'

I just did. The bio...

You go to his page and there's literally a list of accolades under his name. '2016-2017 NBA Champion'

That's called a 'bio'

[-Sammy-]

That's my point-- you won't find the phrase "2016-2017 NBA Champion: Kevin Durant" anywhere on BBRef.com, or NBA.com, or any other reputable info source. He's part of the team, but he himself is not the champion, because the NBA champion isn't ever a person-- it's a team. The NBA champion is always a team, because this is a team league.

This thread has so many dumb statements but arguing that individual basketball players are not champions but their teams are is one of the dumbest things I ever read on realgm. Kevin Durant is the 2016-2017 NBA Champion.

That's not what this banner says:



As you can see, it says that Golden State is the 2017 NBA champion.

Kevin Durant is not the Golden State Warriors. He's part of the Golden State Warriors, but he is not the entire Golden State team, and the entire Golden State team is the 2017 NBA champion, as you can see on the banner that the NBA awarded the Golden State Warriors.

[CoffeeCakez]

i don't know why people get sensitive if they put kobe in top 20, that's still good. pau was a beast and should have won fmvp as well, that team was fun to watch.

because he is top 5-8 AT LEAST so calling him top 20 shows blatant disrespect. The legends that played the game consider him one of the greatest though so I guess random poster's opinion on this doesnt matter.

[-Sammy-]

Yes you will. Click on Kevin Durant's profile, then look in bio. wtf...

Please direct me to the part of Kevin Durant's profile that reads '2016-2017 NBA Champion: Kevin Durant.'

I just did. The bio...

You go to his page and there's literally a list of accolades under his name. '2016-2017 NBA Champion'

That's called a 'bio'

The badge is there to commemorate his inclusion on the team that won the title.

Golden State is the 2017 NBA champion, and Kevin Durant is not Golden State.

[euroleague]

Please direct me to the part of Kevin Durant's profile that reads '2016-2017 NBA Champion: Kevin Durant.'

I just did. The bio...

You go to his page and there's literally a list of accolades under his name. '2016-2017 NBA Champion'

That's called a 'bio'

The badge is there to commemorate his inclusion on the team that won the title.

Golden State is the 2017 NBA champion, and Kevin Durant is not Golden State.

Yes he is. So is Curry, etc. the golden state roster is also on bbref

[-Sammy-]

I just did. The bio...

You go to his page and there's literally a list of accolades under his name. '2016-2017 NBA Champion'

That's called a 'bio'

The badge is there to commemorate his inclusion on the team that won the title.

Golden State is the 2017 NBA champion, and Kevin Durant is not Golden State.

Yes he is. So is Curry, etc. the golden state roster is also on bbref

So you say that Kevin Durant is Golden State, and I say that Kevin Durant is Kevin Durant. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter.

[taj2133]

Phil is showing support and high praise for a former player that he coached. I don't take what he said seriously.

[euroleague]

The badge is there to commemorate his inclusion on the team that won the title.

Golden State is the 2017 NBA champion, and Kevin Durant is not Golden State.

Yes he is. So is Curry, etc. the golden state roster is also on bbref

So you say that Kevin Durant is Golden State, and I say that Kevin Durant is Kevin Durant. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter.

I say he is nba champion. So is Curry. You can find the roster on bbref...

[-Sammy-]

Yes he is. So is Curry, etc. the golden state roster is also on bbref

So you say that Kevin Durant is Golden State, and I say that Kevin Durant is Kevin Durant. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter.

I say he is nba champion. So is Curry. You can find the roster on bbref...

Is that the Kevin Durant roster or the Golden State roster?

[CoffeeCakez]

fantastic player though, top 20 all-time.

20 is a little too low bro, I have Kobe 12th all time....which is obviously very high praise, the guy was a great player

I have him around the same--If I really had to make a list he might come in at #10. He is the basketball equivalent to Steve Young in QB rankings to me. Extremely good, all time good but sort of in that second tier looking in on a handful of clearly better all time players.

It also goes back to my point of Kobe being much more of a cult hero than a player in legitimate discussion as the GOAT. I dont know if it was his attitude, play style or big market but he essentially was the originator of basketball Stans. Fans that worship the ground he walks and will defend the guy till they die although deep down they all know he is not near even top 3.

He is essentially beloved by everybody for being a better player than he actually was--but that doesnt take away from the fact that he was still really really good.

I kind of see your point of him being a "cult hero" and his tremendous fanfare but there is a reason for that. Even when lakers three-peated with shaq kobe was the dominant player in the WC in 2001 and 2002. Shaq went against weak opposing Centers in the finals from the east which is why his numbers inflated and he got the fMVPs but kobe was no sidekick, more like 1a and 1b. The stats nerds overlook this fact because they a) either did not watch the playoffs during those times or b) are being intellectually dishonest in order to dismiss kobe's dominance during that time.

The really defining moments from his career was his seasons from 05-09. He had to literally carry a bunch of trash to the playoffs by himself in the WEST, not the weak east but the west and carry them he did. regular 40 point outings, 81 points in 06 against the raptors and 4 straight 50 point games in 07 is not something you see every now and then. We probably will never see a player score like that ever again WITH the pressure of carrying a team like he was responsible for. It's where yelling out "kobe!" when you shot a paper ball into a trash can originated from - you can count on him to make a shot when the game was on the line. and not just any regular shots, difficult shots, tier of difficult shots even MJ probably couldnt hit.

With Pau on the team lakers got to the finals 3x and won twice with kobe dominating. our second best player was Pau but outside of him were just good-great role players, no super team BS like you see today and kobe still won 2 rings.

So no, we don't prop kobe "for being a better player than he was" that is being intellectually dishonest and you know it. In fact I would say he is severely underrated here. The impact he had on the game can't be measured by a stat sheet and requires the eye test.

top 5-8 all time and anything lower than 10-11 is just pure hate and ignorance.