Better peak - Leonard vs Russell

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Picking Jordan after 1991 would be much easier to explain because he was better player than Kawhi at any point. If Clippers win next 3 rings and Kawhi don't play better, he won't be considered better than Russell either.

You assume that people don't see Kawhi greatness. They do, but you clearly overrate him.

BTW, I'd still pick Russell over Jordan on my GOAT list and I'm not alone.

2017 Kawhi plugged in for 1990 Jordan would at least get to the east finals vs pistons

2019 Kawhi plugged in for 1991 Jordan can beat magic with no worthy and DIVAC. Hahhaha divac as 2nd best player that's cute.

I don't see anything 90s Jordan did that Kawhi couldn't do. Give Kawhi a pippen level player and he would never lose a series. Imagine Pippen's ball handling, playmaking, defense paired up with Kawhi? They are not losing.

If you have Russell over Jordan as well than to each its own.

All you talk is team performance, Jordan was better because he was better playmaker, scorer and offensive player than Kawhi, not because he beat 1991 Lakers. Lesser players than Jordan would win a ring in 1991, it doesn't change the fact that they are worse.

Your arguments are clueless. Kawhi is better than Russell "because he hasn't lost since 2017" which means he won 5 series in a row. Even though Russell won 21 series in a row when healthy.

Kawhi is better than Russell because he beat Sixers, even though Russell beat the best Sixers team of all-times.

The only argument for Kawhi over Bill Russell is scoring. That's strong argument, but far too weak to give him edge.

Russell was ten times more impactful defender than Kawhi and I don't care that Leonard shut down Jimmy Butler in one game. Russell had far more accomplishments than that. Kawhi didn't stop Giannis and Giannis already struggled individually in first game even though Kawhi didn't guard him then.

You just use empty narratives to push Kawhi into GOAT tier and you make people dislike Leonard here. Have you ever thought that when almost all people tell you that you are wrong (and some of them are far more knowledgeable than either one of us), then maybe (just MAYBE) you are wrong?

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact. Kawhi is a better shooter, rebounder, defender than Jordan and an equal scorer.

Russell won 21 series straight but he was overwhelming favorite for many of them. Half of Russell's rings have an asterisk to it because the era lacked enough teams for competition.

As far as people to disageee with me on kawhi, most of them are either

-spurs fans
-warriors fans
-raptors fans
-too stubborn to change there lists.

Kawhi when healthy since 2017 has clearly been the most unstoppable scorer since Shaq. When you're that great of a scorer and still good on defense? I have 1998-2003 shaq over Russell as well! Great scoring always beats great defense if the circumstances fit and Kawhi/Shaq are both good enough on defense to make up the gap.

The volume of Leonard's scoring, the efficiency, the competition of teams he is playing and his clutch scoring at the end of games, team leading rebounder, lockdown man to man defender when needed is what all makes him the generation's best peak. That peak can stack up with any other geneeation's best player based on eye test when healthy. I can tell you that because I just watched it, Russell was a long time ago and people seem to be exaggerating. We can agree to disagree on this comparison.

[70sFan]

2017 Kawhi plugged in for 1990 Jordan would at least get to the east finals vs pistons

2019 Kawhi plugged in for 1991 Jordan can beat magic with no worthy and DIVAC. Hahhaha divac as 2nd best player that's cute.

I don't see anything 90s Jordan did that Kawhi couldn't do. Give Kawhi a pippen level player and he would never lose a series. Imagine Pippen's ball handling, playmaking, defense paired up with Kawhi? They are not losing.

If you have Russell over Jordan as well than to each its own.

All you talk is team performance, Jordan was better because he was better playmaker, scorer and offensive player than Kawhi, not because he beat 1991 Lakers. Lesser players than Jordan would win a ring in 1991, it doesn't change the fact that they are worse.

Your arguments are clueless. Kawhi is better than Russell "because he hasn't lost since 2017" which means he won 5 series in a row. Even though Russell won 21 series in a row when healthy.

Kawhi is better than Russell because he beat Sixers, even though Russell beat the best Sixers team of all-times.

The only argument for Kawhi over Bill Russell is scoring. That's strong argument, but far too weak to give him edge.

Russell was ten times more impactful defender than Kawhi and I don't care that Leonard shut down Jimmy Butler in one game. Russell had far more accomplishments than that. Kawhi didn't stop Giannis and Giannis already struggled individually in first game even though Kawhi didn't guard him then.

You just use empty narratives to push Kawhi into GOAT tier and you make people dislike Leonard here. Have you ever thought that when almost all people tell you that you are wrong (and some of them are far more knowledgeable than either one of us), then maybe (just MAYBE) you are wrong?

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact. Kawhi is a better shooter, rebounder, defender than Jordan and an equal scorer.

Russell won 21 series straight but he was overwhelming favorite for many of them. Half of Russell's rings have an asterisk to it because the era lacked enough teams for competition.

As far as people to disageee with me on kawhi, most of them are either

-spurs fans
-warriors fans
-raptors fans
-too stubborn to change there lists.

Kawhi when healthy since 2017 has clearly been the most unstoppable scorer since Shaq. When you're that great of a scorer and still good on defense? I have 1998-2003 shaq over Russell as well! Great scoring always beats great defense if the circumstances fit and Kawhi/Shaq are both good enough on defense to make up the gap.

The volume of Leonard's scoring, the efficiency, the competition of teams he is playing and his clutch scoring at the end of games, team leading rebounder, lockdown man to man defender when needed is what all makes him the generation's best peak. That peak can stack up with any other geneeation's best player based on eye test when healthy. I can tell you that because I just watched it, Russell was a long time ago and people seem to be exaggerating. We can agree to disagree on this comparison.

If Bulls still won with Kawhi but in 7 games against the Lakers for example, that's not the same impact even though results are the same. Are you insane or what?

Russell beat Sixers in 1966 and 1968 as an underdog. Same against the Lakers in 1969. These teams are better than Bucks or Sixers.

People who disagrees with you are majority of the forum. So no, they are not what you described.

Shaq was also better player than Kawhi, so I don't agree with you about that comparison. Shaq is clearly closer to Russell peak-wise than Kawhi.

Most people don't care about Russell, he played so long ago. That's why people like you underrate so much.

[Jiminy Glick]

Well Leonard is a 2x defensive player of the year and 2x finals mvp and is an amazing scorer. In terms of defense and scoring from players that are not bigs only Jordan and LeBron can be compared with him. Leonard may very well be the best defender of that group and also in terms of scoring he is the best shooter of the group when looking at 3pt% and ft%. So the guy is damn good.

Now to Russell, amazing athlete, rebounder, and defender. Also a great passer and a better passer than Leonard in my opinion. He creates better ball flow. Because of offensive rebounding, passing, and his ability to score around the basket Russell is a great offensive player. But Kawhi is the much better scorer. Russell's post defense makes him more valuable than Leonard defensively, also Russell was great in transition and perimeter defense. Russell also has better durability and athleticism.

It really depends on the type of team you want to build. These are both amazing hall of fame types of players. Russell played on teams that were stacked and also there were less teams in the league. Leonard also played on stacked teams. I wouldn't feel comfortable with Russell defending Shaq so if Shaq was on the opposing team Russell would have to play power forward. Wilt had huge scoring games against Russell and Shaq is more of a power player. But Russell also played him well as well in their careers. So again it depends on the team as to who is the most effective, if Leonard scores 35 on great efficiency with 10 rebounds and defends LeBron well that is a huge game for him. However I would rather have Russell on my team In terms of the style I would want my team to play.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

All you talk is team performance, Jordan was better because he was better playmaker, scorer and offensive player than Kawhi, not because he beat 1991 Lakers. Lesser players than Jordan would win a ring in 1991, it doesn't change the fact that they are worse.

Your arguments are clueless. Kawhi is better than Russell "because he hasn't lost since 2017" which means he won 5 series in a row. Even though Russell won 21 series in a row when healthy.

Kawhi is better than Russell because he beat Sixers, even though Russell beat the best Sixers team of all-times.

The only argument for Kawhi over Bill Russell is scoring. That's strong argument, but far too weak to give him edge.

Russell was ten times more impactful defender than Kawhi and I don't care that Leonard shut down Jimmy Butler in one game. Russell had far more accomplishments than that. Kawhi didn't stop Giannis and Giannis already struggled individually in first game even though Kawhi didn't guard him then.

You just use empty narratives to push Kawhi into GOAT tier and you make people dislike Leonard here. Have you ever thought that when almost all people tell you that you are wrong (and some of them are far more knowledgeable than either one of us), then maybe (just MAYBE) you are wrong?

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact. Kawhi is a better shooter, rebounder, defender than Jordan and an equal scorer.

Russell won 21 series straight but he was overwhelming favorite for many of them. Half of Russell's rings have an asterisk to it because the era lacked enough teams for competition.

As far as people to disageee with me on kawhi, most of them are either

-spurs fans
-warriors fans
-raptors fans
-too stubborn to change there lists.

Kawhi when healthy since 2017 has clearly been the most unstoppable scorer since Shaq. When you're that great of a scorer and still good on defense? I have 1998-2003 shaq over Russell as well! Great scoring always beats great defense if the circumstances fit and Kawhi/Shaq are both good enough on defense to make up the gap.

The volume of Leonard's scoring, the efficiency, the competition of teams he is playing and his clutch scoring at the end of games, team leading rebounder, lockdown man to man defender when needed is what all makes him the generation's best peak. That peak can stack up with any other geneeation's best player based on eye test when healthy. I can tell you that because I just watched it, Russell was a long time ago and people seem to be exaggerating. We can agree to disagree on this comparison.

If Bulls still won with Kawhi but in 7 games against the Lakers for example, that's not the same impact even though results are the same. Are you insane or what?

Russell beat Sixers in 1966 and 1968 as an underdog. Same against the Lakers in 1969. These teams are better than Bucks or Sixers.

People who disagrees with you are majority of the forum. So no, they are not what you described.

Shaq was also better player than Kawhi, so I don't agree with you about that comparison. Shaq is clearly closer to Russell peak-wise than Kawhi.

Most people don't care about Russell, he played so long ago. That's why people like you underrate so much.

Shaq in 99 had a +3 on TS by era and Kawhi had a +7. Shaq was also in the triangle offense that already won 6 rings. Kawhi had a rookie coach. Big differences there and also Kobe was better than Lowry or Siakam.

Kawhi beat 76ers bucks warriors and was underdog vs all of them. 76ers had a record pace on net rating, bucks are #1 defense with the MVP and coach of the year, warriors have the 73 win big 3. Russell has never beat teams like that all in 1 year.

I never said it would take kawhi 7 games to beat 1991 Lakers, he would beat him in 5 or 4.

Why is Shaq closer Russell than Kawhi is? Kawhi's stats in 2019 playoffs are superior over Shaqs stats, he's a better passer than Shaq, by far better closer than Shaq. Leonard was more efficient, higher BPM, bigger responsibility on defense, carried a bigger scoring load because he closed games more.

[LKN]

This thread has gotten even more crazy than I expected.

[70sFan]

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact. Kawhi is a better shooter, rebounder, defender than Jordan and an equal scorer.

Russell won 21 series straight but he was overwhelming favorite for many of them. Half of Russell's rings have an asterisk to it because the era lacked enough teams for competition.

As far as people to disageee with me on kawhi, most of them are either

-spurs fans
-warriors fans
-raptors fans
-too stubborn to change there lists.

Kawhi when healthy since 2017 has clearly been the most unstoppable scorer since Shaq. When you're that great of a scorer and still good on defense? I have 1998-2003 shaq over Russell as well! Great scoring always beats great defense if the circumstances fit and Kawhi/Shaq are both good enough on defense to make up the gap.

The volume of Leonard's scoring, the efficiency, the competition of teams he is playing and his clutch scoring at the end of games, team leading rebounder, lockdown man to man defender when needed is what all makes him the generation's best peak. That peak can stack up with any other geneeation's best player based on eye test when healthy. I can tell you that because I just watched it, Russell was a long time ago and people seem to be exaggerating. We can agree to disagree on this comparison.

If Bulls still won with Kawhi but in 7 games against the Lakers for example, that's not the same impact even though results are the same. Are you insane or what?

Russell beat Sixers in 1966 and 1968 as an underdog. Same against the Lakers in 1969. These teams are better than Bucks or Sixers.

People who disagrees with you are majority of the forum. So no, they are not what you described.

Shaq was also better player than Kawhi, so I don't agree with you about that comparison. Shaq is clearly closer to Russell peak-wise than Kawhi.

Most people don't care about Russell, he played so long ago. That's why people like you underrate so much.

Shaq in 99 had a +3 on TS by era and Kawhi had a +7. Shaq was also in the triangle offense that already won 6 rings. Kawhi had a rookie coach. Big differences there and also Kobe was better than Lowry or Siakam.

Kawhi beat 76ers bucks warriors and was underdog vs all of them. 76ers had a record pace on net rating, bucks are #1 defense with the MVP and coach of the year, warriors have the 73 win big 3. Russell has never beat teams like that all in 1 year.

I never said it would take kawhi 7 games to beat 1991 Lakers, he would beat him in 5 or 4.

Why is Shaq closer Russell than Kawhi is? Kawhi's stats in 2019 playoffs are superior over Shaqs stats, he's a better passer than Shaq, by far better closer than Shaq. Leonard was more efficient, higher BPM, bigger responsibility on defense, carried a bigger scoring load because he closed games more.

I won't talk about Shaq here, create different thread if you wish.

Russell's Celtics beat defending champions and arguably the best team ever (with peak Wilt Chamberlain) in Sixers and one of the best offensive teams ever which almost swept WC in Lakers (with peak Jerry West) in one 1967-68 season.

Russell's Celtics beat the team with best record in the league in Sixers (with peak Wilt Chamberlain) and two best offensive teams in the league with peak Jerry West and prime Oscar Robertson, all in 1965-66 season.

Russell's Celtics beat the Lakers superteam with prime Jerry West and Baylor/Chamberlain without HCA and the future champions Knicks with peak Willis Reed and prime Walt Frazier.

2019 Sixers are not even better than 1964 Royals in historical perspective. Net rating didn't exist back then, I'm sure we'll have better teams in NBA history in that aspect before advanced stats era.

Russell was far more proven player in postseason. He had many postseasons just as impressive as Kawhi's 2019 run and his impact is just higher. His team shut down the best offensive teams of his era with dominant fashion. His competition is undeniable, he faced every tough opponent from that era possible.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

If Bulls still won with Kawhi but in 7 games against the Lakers for example, that's not the same impact even though results are the same. Are you insane or what?

Russell beat Sixers in 1966 and 1968 as an underdog. Same against the Lakers in 1969. These teams are better than Bucks or Sixers.

People who disagrees with you are majority of the forum. So no, they are not what you described.

Shaq was also better player than Kawhi, so I don't agree with you about that comparison. Shaq is clearly closer to Russell peak-wise than Kawhi.

Most people don't care about Russell, he played so long ago. That's why people like you underrate so much.

Shaq in 99 had a +3 on TS by era and Kawhi had a +7. Shaq was also in the triangle offense that already won 6 rings. Kawhi had a rookie coach. Big differences there and also Kobe was better than Lowry or Siakam.

Kawhi beat 76ers bucks warriors and was underdog vs all of them. 76ers had a record pace on net rating, bucks are #1 defense with the MVP and coach of the year, warriors have the 73 win big 3. Russell has never beat teams like that all in 1 year.

I never said it would take kawhi 7 games to beat 1991 Lakers, he would beat him in 5 or 4.

Why is Shaq closer Russell than Kawhi is? Kawhi's stats in 2019 playoffs are superior over Shaqs stats, he's a better passer than Shaq, by far better closer than Shaq. Leonard was more efficient, higher BPM, bigger responsibility on defense, carried a bigger scoring load because he closed games more.

I won't talk about Shaq here, create different thread if you wish.

Russell's Celtics beat defending champions and arguably the best team ever (with peak Wilt Chamberlain) in Sixers and one of the best offensive teams ever which almost swept WC in Lakers (with peak Jerry West) in one 1967-68 season.

Russell's Celtics beat the team with best record in the league in Sixers (with peak Wilt Chamberlain) and two best offensive teams in the league with peak Jerry West and prime Oscar Robertson, all in 1965-66 season.

Russell's Celtics beat the Lakers superteam with prime Jerry West and Baylor/Chamberlain without HCA and the future champions Knicks with peak Willis Reed and prime Walt Frazier.

2019 Sixers are not even better than 1964 Royals in historical perspective. Net rating didn't exist back then, I'm sure we'll have better teams in NBA history in that aspect before advanced stats era.

Russell was far more proven player in postseason. He had many postseasons just as impressive as Kawhi's 2019 run and his impact is just higher. His team shut down the best offensive teams of his era with dominant fashion. His competition is undeniable, he faced every tough opponent from that era possible.

What if you cut off Russell's career at 27 years old? You're handcuffing Kawhi here. I think Kawhi will end up with about 5 finals MVPS at the end of his career which is a modern day Russell. Having as much titles as Russell had just doesn't happen anymore.

[70sFan]

Shaq in 99 had a +3 on TS by era and Kawhi had a +7. Shaq was also in the triangle offense that already won 6 rings. Kawhi had a rookie coach. Big differences there and also Kobe was better than Lowry or Siakam.

Kawhi beat 76ers bucks warriors and was underdog vs all of them. 76ers had a record pace on net rating, bucks are #1 defense with the MVP and coach of the year, warriors have the 73 win big 3. Russell has never beat teams like that all in 1 year.

I never said it would take kawhi 7 games to beat 1991 Lakers, he would beat him in 5 or 4.

Why is Shaq closer Russell than Kawhi is? Kawhi's stats in 2019 playoffs are superior over Shaqs stats, he's a better passer than Shaq, by far better closer than Shaq. Leonard was more efficient, higher BPM, bigger responsibility on defense, carried a bigger scoring load because he closed games more.

I won't talk about Shaq here, create different thread if you wish.

Russell's Celtics beat defending champions and arguably the best team ever (with peak Wilt Chamberlain) in Sixers and one of the best offensive teams ever which almost swept WC in Lakers (with peak Jerry West) in one 1967-68 season.

Russell's Celtics beat the team with best record in the league in Sixers (with peak Wilt Chamberlain) and two best offensive teams in the league with peak Jerry West and prime Oscar Robertson, all in 1965-66 season.

Russell's Celtics beat the Lakers superteam with prime Jerry West and Baylor/Chamberlain without HCA and the future champions Knicks with peak Willis Reed and prime Walt Frazier.

2019 Sixers are not even better than 1964 Royals in historical perspective. Net rating didn't exist back then, I'm sure we'll have better teams in NBA history in that aspect before advanced stats era.

Russell was far more proven player in postseason. He had many postseasons just as impressive as Kawhi's 2019 run and his impact is just higher. His team shut down the best offensive teams of his era with dominant fashion. His competition is undeniable, he faced every tough opponent from that era possible.

What if you cut off Russell's career at 27 years old? You're handcuffing Kawhi here. I think Kawhi will end up with about 5 finals MVPS at the end of his career which is a modern day Russell. Having as much titles as Russell had just doesn't happen anymore.

Then he would come off his fifth ring after 30-40 performance in game 7 of the finals. He'd already have better season than Kawhi has had so far.

Kawhi now has two rings. It's not fair that I don't mention his age, but it's completely fair to assume without any evidences that he'll win next 3 titles? Who is delusional at this point?

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I won't talk about Shaq here, create different thread if you wish.

Russell's Celtics beat defending champions and arguably the best team ever (with peak Wilt Chamberlain) in Sixers and one of the best offensive teams ever which almost swept WC in Lakers (with peak Jerry West) in one 1967-68 season.

Russell's Celtics beat the team with best record in the league in Sixers (with peak Wilt Chamberlain) and two best offensive teams in the league with peak Jerry West and prime Oscar Robertson, all in 1965-66 season.

Russell's Celtics beat the Lakers superteam with prime Jerry West and Baylor/Chamberlain without HCA and the future champions Knicks with peak Willis Reed and prime Walt Frazier.

2019 Sixers are not even better than 1964 Royals in historical perspective. Net rating didn't exist back then, I'm sure we'll have better teams in NBA history in that aspect before advanced stats era.

Russell was far more proven player in postseason. He had many postseasons just as impressive as Kawhi's 2019 run and his impact is just higher. His team shut down the best offensive teams of his era with dominant fashion. His competition is undeniable, he faced every tough opponent from that era possible.

What if you cut off Russell's career at 27 years old? You're handcuffing Kawhi here. I think Kawhi will end up with about 5 finals MVPS at the end of his career which is a modern day Russell. Having as much titles as Russell had just doesn't happen anymore.

Then he would come off his fifth ring after 30-40 performance in game 7 of the finals. He'd already have better season than Kawhi has had so far.

Kawhi now has two rings. It's not fair that I don't mention his age, but it's completely fair to assume without any evidences that he'll win next 3 titles? Who is delusional at this point?

2 titles these days is pretty much equal to 5 titles in that era.

LeBron is 35, Durant just had a major injury, harden declines in the playoffs. I don't know who you think is going to magically pop up and beat Kawhi/George. Is bill Russell going to come back into the league? Kawhi/George have 2 titles for sure coming there way and than 3rd year player option. I would say that's 3 titles and and than after that? Kawhi/George might stay together for the rest of there careers and win 5 titles together, they are young enough.

[HeartBreakKid]

We got Nostradamus over here. This is like when GSW fans kept talking like Curry had 4 or 5 rings already when he had 2 or 3 at the time.

Kawhi Leonard only has 2 rings, and one of them he wasn't even a superstar - so stop saying he has 4 or 5 rings already. It isn't a guarantee nor is it even likely he would win multiple rings.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

We got Nostradamus over here. This is like when GSW fans kept talking like Curry had 4 or 5 rings already when he had 2 or 3 at the time.

Kawhi Leonard only has 2 rings, and one of them he wasn't even a superstar - so stop saying he has 4 or 5 rings already. It isn't a guarantee nor is it even likely he would win multiple rings.

Its pretty damn likely. The best player in the league paired up with a top 3 MVP finalist and two 6th men of the year finalist and a championship coach. Who the hell is going to beat them? Lebron is old and in the twilight of his career and will turn davis into a pick and pop guy. Durant had a career changing injury. This is like LeBron Wade but George has a lot left in the tank than Wade.

[HeartBreakKid]

We got Nostradamus over here. This is like when GSW fans kept talking like Curry had 4 or 5 rings already when he had 2 or 3 at the time.

Kawhi Leonard only has 2 rings, and one of them he wasn't even a superstar - so stop saying he has 4 or 5 rings already. It isn't a guarantee nor is it even likely he would win multiple rings.

Its pretty damn likely. The best player in the league paired up with a top 3 MVP finalist and two 6th men of the year finalist and a championship coach. Who the hell is going to beat them? Lebron is old and in the twilight of his career and will turn davis into a pick and pop guy. Durant had a career changing injury. This is like LeBron Wade but George has a lot left in the tank than Wade.

I was gonna say that it is incredible someone could watch basketball for this long and think this, but I see your join date and it's very likely you have no idea what the word "likely" means in this context. It is not likely the Clippers will win multiple titles, and having a top 3 MVP finalist is not the same thing as a top 3 player - Joakim Noah was a top 4 MVP finalist, Isaiah Thomas was a top 5 - Paul George may have ranked 3rd but he wasn't seriously considered for MVP at all.

George isn't comparable to Wade, nor is Leonard all that comparable to James and the Heat is a perfect example of why what you said sounds really silly - they were expected to win a lot but only won twice with the best player in the world.

If you're still not piecing it together, tell me - what makes them the favorites in 2021? How are they going to beat the Bucks that pairs Giannis with top 5 MVP placed ______ or the reformed _______ - you literally won't even know what the teams are two years from now and you think it is a guarantee Leonard gets MULTIPLE rings?

The Clippers are not the Durant Warriors. Not even close.

Well then, snap shot you betting on Clippers vs the Field then. Let's see how money you put on it. If it is likely, then you wouldn't just waste a chance to get free money wouldn't you?

[HBK_Kliq_33]

We got Nostradamus over here. This is like when GSW fans kept talking like Curry had 4 or 5 rings already when he had 2 or 3 at the time.

Kawhi Leonard only has 2 rings, and one of them he wasn't even a superstar - so stop saying he has 4 or 5 rings already. It isn't a guarantee nor is it even likely he would win multiple rings.

Its pretty damn likely. The best player in the league paired up with a top 3 MVP finalist and two 6th men of the year finalist and a championship coach. Who the hell is going to beat them? Lebron is old and in the twilight of his career and will turn davis into a pick and pop guy. Durant had a career changing injury. This is like LeBron Wade but George has a lot left in the tank than Wade.

I was gonna say that it is incredible someone could watch basketball for this long and think this, but I see your join date and it's very likely you have no idea what the word "likely" means in this context. It is not likely the Clippers will win multiple titles, and having a top 3 MVP finalist is not the same thing as a top 3 player - Joakim Noah was a top 4 MVP finalist, Isaiah Thomas was a top 5 - Paul George may have ranked 3rd but he wasn't seriously considered for MVP at all.

George isn't comparable to Wade, nor is Leonard all that comparable to James and the Heat is a perfect example of why what you said sounds really silly - they were expected to win a lot but only won twice with the best player in the world.

If you're still not piecing it together, tell me - what makes them the favorites in 2021? How are they going to beat the Bucks that pairs Giannis with top 5 MVP placed ______ or the reformed _______ - you literally won't even know what the teams are two years from now and you think it is a guarantee Leonard gets MULTIPLE rings?

The Clippers are not the Durant Warriors. Not even close.

Well then, snap shot you betting on Clippers vs the Field then. Let's see how money you put on it. If it is likely, then you wouldn't just waste a chance to get free money wouldn't you?

Kawhi is the best player in the league in the playoffs and George played like a top 5 player in reg season. Pairing of them beats anybody in these next 2 years for sure. I would bet money on it.

George is a better player than Wade in 2012 and much better than 2013 Wade. Who can Giannis pair with? I don't see a realistic 1st option scorer that's going to go to his team. Giannis as the leading scorer isn't beating Kawhi and George clippers I know that much, he couldn't even beat Kawhi's raptors.

Kawhi and George are the 2020 version of Jordan and Pippen as far as impact goes. They are both Cali boys and will push each other to the limit on both ends. They are scary together, you'll see.

[Amares]

2017 Kawhi plugged in for 1990 Jordan would at least get to the east finals vs pistons

2019 Kawhi plugged in for 1991 Jordan can beat magic with no worthy and DIVAC. Hahhaha divac as 2nd best player that's cute.

I don't see anything 90s Jordan did that Kawhi couldn't do. Give Kawhi a pippen level player and he would never lose a series. Imagine Pippen's ball handling, playmaking, defense paired up with Kawhi? They are not losing.

If you have Russell over Jordan as well than to each its own.

All you talk is team performance, Jordan was better because he was better playmaker, scorer and offensive player than Kawhi, not because he beat 1991 Lakers. Lesser players than Jordan would win a ring in 1991, it doesn't change the fact that they are worse.

Your arguments are clueless. Kawhi is better than Russell "because he hasn't lost since 2017" which means he won 5 series in a row. Even though Russell won 21 series in a row when healthy.

Kawhi is better than Russell because he beat Sixers, even though Russell beat the best Sixers team of all-times.

The only argument for Kawhi over Bill Russell is scoring. That's strong argument, but far too weak to give him edge.

Russell was ten times more impactful defender than Kawhi and I don't care that Leonard shut down Jimmy Butler in one game. Russell had far more accomplishments than that. Kawhi didn't stop Giannis and Giannis already struggled individually in first game even though Kawhi didn't guard him then.

You just use empty narratives to push Kawhi into GOAT tier and you make people dislike Leonard here. Have you ever thought that when almost all people tell you that you are wrong (and some of them are far more knowledgeable than either one of us), then maybe (just MAYBE) you are wrong?

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact.

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team wouldn't win 20 games, that means overall Kawhi matches Bill Cartwright impact.
Love these narratives without any single argument to support it.

The volume of Leonard's scoring, the efficiency, the competition of teams he is playing and his clutch scoring at the end of games, team leading rebounder, lockdown man to man defender when needed is what all makes him the generation's best peak. That peak can stack up with any other geneeation's best player based on eye test when healthy. I can tell you that because I just watched it, Russell was a long time ago and people seem to be exaggerating. We can agree to disagree on this comparison.

Finally you confirmed that you relie on eye-test only. My eye test says me Kawhi is not top 30 player in the league today. What now?
So this is how this Kawhi pushing looks like. 0 concretes, just "He's better than peak Russell, because I want him to be better". You can continue debate on this level until the worlds over. Fair enough HBK already confirmed he has no argument to defend any of his points.
And predictions about Clippers and Kawhi multiple titles in next years exactly prove that you started watching this league in 2018. It's waste of time for any to continue this topic.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

All you talk is team performance, Jordan was better because he was better playmaker, scorer and offensive player than Kawhi, not because he beat 1991 Lakers. Lesser players than Jordan would win a ring in 1991, it doesn't change the fact that they are worse.

Your arguments are clueless. Kawhi is better than Russell "because he hasn't lost since 2017" which means he won 5 series in a row. Even though Russell won 21 series in a row when healthy.

Kawhi is better than Russell because he beat Sixers, even though Russell beat the best Sixers team of all-times.

The only argument for Kawhi over Bill Russell is scoring. That's strong argument, but far too weak to give him edge.

Russell was ten times more impactful defender than Kawhi and I don't care that Leonard shut down Jimmy Butler in one game. Russell had far more accomplishments than that. Kawhi didn't stop Giannis and Giannis already struggled individually in first game even though Kawhi didn't guard him then.

You just use empty narratives to push Kawhi into GOAT tier and you make people dislike Leonard here. Have you ever thought that when almost all people tell you that you are wrong (and some of them are far more knowledgeable than either one of us), then maybe (just MAYBE) you are wrong?

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact.

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team wouldn't win 20 games, that means overall Kawhi matches Bill Cartwright impact.
Love these narratives without any single argument to support it.

The volume of Leonard's scoring, the efficiency, the competition of teams he is playing and his clutch scoring at the end of games, team leading rebounder, lockdown man to man defender when needed is what all makes him the generation's best peak. That peak can stack up with any other geneeation's best player based on eye test when healthy. I can tell you that because I just watched it, Russell was a long time ago and people seem to be exaggerating. We can agree to disagree on this comparison.

Finally you confirmed that you relie on eye-test only. My eye test says me Kawhi is not top 30 player in the league today. What now?
So this is how this Kawhi pushing looks like. 0 concretes, just "He's better than peak Russell, because I want him to be better". You can continue debate on this level until the worlds over. Fair enough HBK already confirmed he has no argument to defend any of his points.
And predictions about Clippers and Kawhi multiple titles in next years exactly prove that you started watching this league in 2018. It's waste of time for any to continue this topic.

if you compare kawhi to a 1960s guy, I am not going to be able to talk about stats.

Most people would say shaq 2000 is better than peak Russell. 2019 playoffs Kawhi has better stats than 2000 Shaq but I guess shaq has this "impact" that keeps him ahead. If you want stats go look at giannis fg% when kawhi guarded him, go look at single season total playoff points which shows how consistent Kawhi was because the amount of points he scored.

Putting Kawhi and George on the same team is the rich man's version of if peak Kobe and Mcgrady were on the same team to give you a recent example. That's multiple titles waiting to happen.

[Amares]

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact.

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team wouldn't win 20 games, that means overall Kawhi matches Bill Cartwright impact.
Love these narratives without any single argument to support it.

The volume of Leonard's scoring, the efficiency, the competition of teams he is playing and his clutch scoring at the end of games, team leading rebounder, lockdown man to man defender when needed is what all makes him the generation's best peak. That peak can stack up with any other geneeation's best player based on eye test when healthy. I can tell you that because I just watched it, Russell was a long time ago and people seem to be exaggerating. We can agree to disagree on this comparison.

Finally you confirmed that you relie on eye-test only. My eye test says me Kawhi is not top 30 player in the league today. What now?
So this is how this Kawhi pushing looks like. 0 concretes, just "He's better than peak Russell, because I want him to be better". You can continue debate on this level until the worlds over. Fair enough HBK already confirmed he has no argument to defend any of his points.
And predictions about Clippers and Kawhi multiple titles in next years exactly prove that you started watching this league in 2018. It's waste of time for any to continue this topic.

if you compare kawhi to a 1960s guy, I am not going to be able to talk about stats.

Most people would say shaq 2000 is better than peak Russell. 2019 playoffs Kawhi has better stats than 2000 Shaq but I guess shaq has this "impact" that keeps him ahead. If you want stats go look at giannis fg% when kawhi guarded him, go look at single season total playoff points which shows how consistent Kawhi was because the amount of points he scored.

That's nobodys fault you're unable to talk about it.
Which stats 2019 Kawhi has better than Shaq?
"If you want stats go look at giannis fg% when kawhi guarded him"
And you go watch the games, so you will see how kawhi "guarded" him when Giannis fg% went down. You certainly didn't do that.

Putting Kawhi and George on the same team is the rich man's version of if peak Kobe and Mcgrady were on the same team to give you a recent example. That's multiple titles waiting to happen.

How do you know it's multiple titles waiting to happen? And how do you know it's like peak Kobe and McGrady, and that Kobe with McGrady would win any title?

[mysticOscar]

I like Kawhi, but man some posters (one in particular) has hyped him up so much that its borderline trolling at this point.

Russell is literally the only other player i can consider as GOAT along with MJ....and the reason i dont have him as my GOAT, because i didnt watch him play...but have seen enough footage and seen his results to say his impact was up there with MJ.

I really want to have Kawhi be the undisputed best player in his era before i even compare him to the likes of Russell

[HBK_Kliq_33]

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team wouldn't win 20 games, that means overall Kawhi matches Bill Cartwright impact.
Love these narratives without any single argument to support it.



Finally you confirmed that you relie on eye-test only. My eye test says me Kawhi is not top 30 player in the league today. What now?
So this is how this Kawhi pushing looks like. 0 concretes, just "He's better than peak Russell, because I want him to be better". You can continue debate on this level until the worlds over. Fair enough HBK already confirmed he has no argument to defend any of his points.
And predictions about Clippers and Kawhi multiple titles in next years exactly prove that you started watching this league in 2018. It's waste of time for any to continue this topic.

if you compare kawhi to a 1960s guy, I am not going to be able to talk about stats.

Most people would say shaq 2000 is better than peak Russell. 2019 playoffs Kawhi has better stats than 2000 Shaq but I guess shaq has this "impact" that keeps him ahead. If you want stats go look at giannis fg% when kawhi guarded him, go look at single season total playoff points which shows how consistent Kawhi was because the amount of points he scored.

That's nobodys fault you're unable to talk about it.
Which stats 2019 Kawhi has better than Shaq?
"If you want stats go look at giannis fg% when kawhi guarded him"
And you go watch the games, so you will see how kawhi "guarded" him when Giannis fg% went down. You certainly didn't do that.

Putting Kawhi and George on the same team is the rich man's version of if peak Kobe and Mcgrady were on the same team to give you a recent example. That's multiple titles waiting to happen.

How do you know it's multiple titles waiting to happen? And how do you know it's like peak Kobe and McGrady, and that Kobe with McGrady would win any title?

Kawhi was a more efficient scorer than Shaq, +7 TS for kawhi and +3 TS for Shaq.

As far as how I know, I also predicted raptors were going all the way to the title before the season started. I know from scouting tape and reading stats. I am telling you what will happen if healthy, if you disagree than I guess we will have to wait and see. You pair up two top 5 players with a great supporting cast and you win titles, how hard is that for you to understand.

[Amares]

if you compare kawhi to a 1960s guy, I am not going to be able to talk about stats.

Most people would say shaq 2000 is better than peak Russell. 2019 playoffs Kawhi has better stats than 2000 Shaq but I guess shaq has this "impact" that keeps him ahead. If you want stats go look at giannis fg% when kawhi guarded him, go look at single season total playoff points which shows how consistent Kawhi was because the amount of points he scored.

That's nobodys fault you're unable to talk about it.
Which stats 2019 Kawhi has better than Shaq?
"If you want stats go look at giannis fg% when kawhi guarded him"
And you go watch the games, so you will see how kawhi "guarded" him when Giannis fg% went down. You certainly didn't do that.

Putting Kawhi and George on the same team is the rich man's version of if peak Kobe and Mcgrady were on the same team to give you a recent example. That's multiple titles waiting to happen.

How do you know it's multiple titles waiting to happen? And how do you know it's like peak Kobe and McGrady, and that Kobe with McGrady would win any title?

Kawhi was a more efficient scorer than Shaq, +7 TS for kawhi and +3 TS for Shaq.

As far as how I know, I also predicted raptors were going all the way to the title before the season started. I know from scouting tape and reading stats. I am telling you what will happen if healthy, if you disagree than I guess we will have to wait and see. You pair up two top 5 players with a great supporting cast and you win titles, how hard is that for you to understand.

so one stat about scoring efficient is "Kawhi has better stats than 2000 Shaq"

From how long scoting tape and reading stats before the season says anything about winning title? What scouting tape and stats you read year, 5 years ago and 10 years ago to predict correctly champions?
It's not hard to understand for anyone who's longer than 1 season with this league that it's impossible to predict correctly what will happen in next season, let alone few seasons. All the predictions are just guessing that one factor can change dramatically.

[Franco]

Spurs won 67 games and 61 games in Leonard's 2 prime years with him only playing 72 games. If Leonard played all 82 games? We are looking at 70 win and 65 win teams.

Nobody has been able to stop Kawhi... except himself, by being injured.

Russell guarded MVPs head to head more often than Kawhi, and a better player than Kawhi did (Wilt Vs Giannis), and he did a better job than Kawhi too.

Russell is a much better defensive player than Kawhi, it’s not close. He’s a much better rebounder, and again, it’s not even close. He’s also a much better passer than Kawhi.

Kawhi is a much better scorer, and... that’s it. He has no argument here.

Duncan played 61 and manu 58, yet they still won 67 games? That shows it was Kawhi's team right there.

The Spurs went 7-3 without Kawhi, with an average margin of victory of 8ppg.

Again, Kawhi being the best player on the team doesn’t make him the overwhelming best.

Besides, you are seriously bringing up Duncan in 2016? You realize he was a bench warmer in the OKC series right?

In what world? Yes, Duncan was pretty bad (it was an ugly series for him), but he started all 6 games.

Duncan and Manu were not star players anymore who had a huge effect on the teams record, they were simply role players. Kawhi is the star and the one that makes an impact on records.

This is ridiculous. Yes, Manu and Duncan were not in their primes anymore, but saying that role players don’t make impact on records when they won 40+ games without Kawhi every years is insane.

If kawhi plays 80 games, they win about 65 in 2017 and 70 in 2016. Without kawhi in 2018, they win less than 45. Thats still 25 win difference.

You’re making baseless assumptions as if they were facts. The Spurs went 60-12 with Kawhi in 2016, but apparently they go on a 8-0 run because you said so if he plays 8 more games, and that also magically makes them win 2 extra games without him.

In 2017 it’s literally impossible for the Spurs to win 65 games regardless of Kawhi playing more or not. They lost 20 games with Kawhi (54-20) that season.

Kawhi in 2015 didn't get the offense handed to him yet, his usage was still too low. Duncan was looking to repeat for the first time ever. Playoffs the offense still went through Duncan in the post quite often.

Kawhi was still the first option in 2015, there is no dancing around that. He took almost 3 more shots per game than Duncan in the 1st round series Vs Clippers. You’re doing some incredible mental gymnastics here.

It wasn't until 2017 where Kawhi was fully handed the offense. Even 2016, he was 1a to lamarcus 1b.

It wasn’t fully handed to him because he wasn’t good enough to take it. Period. Kawhi wasn’t being cucked by Pop just because he felt like it, there’s a reason he became a more proficient scorer later.

Leonard in 2016/2017 played over 70 games which is enough to win MVP, that's not injury prone. Than in 2019 he played just about the same amount of games as 2002 shaq or 05 Duncan.

KD shot better all-around and had a 5% higher TS%, on higher volume and playing great defense during those playoffs. Kawhi got outplayed that series, he arguably wasn’t even the best performer on his own team (LMA, who you keep calling soft).

Kawhi becoming an unstoppable force in 2017 has no bearing on previous seasons, it’s totally unrelated. 2017 Brook Lopez isn’t a better shooter retroactively just because 2019 Lopez was a great stretch big. Stop bringing up useless points.

Kawhi isn’t better than Russell by any means.