How can Curry be a top 3 point guard all time when it’s debatable if he’s even top 5 all time point guard?

[bondom34]

Some of those names....

If people don't feed these threads, they go away FWIW.

[SpreeS]

This is from other topic:

Averages are based on RAPM rank rather than actual RAPM values.
**Please do not point to non-stars and say "see, these lists are BS". RAPM is not a player ranking and should not be interpreted as such.

96/97 - 97/98
1. Michael Jordan - 6.5
2. Tim Hardaway - 12.5
3. Arvydas Sabonis - 14
4. Jeff Hornacek - 15
5. Scottie Pippen - 15.5
6(tie). Kevin Garnett - 16.5
6(tie). Detlef Schrempf - 16.5
8(tie). Alonzo Mourning - 18.5
8(tie). Toni Kukoc - 18.5
10. Gary Payton - 19

97/98 - 98/99
1. Rasheed Wallace - 2.5
2. Tim Duncan - 3.5
3. Rik Smits - 8
4. Glenn Robinson - 8.5
5. Alonzo Mourning - 9
6. Grant Hill - 10
7. John Stockton - 12
8. Reggie Miller - 14
9. Robert Horry - 21.5
10(tie). Kevin Garnett - 24
10(tie) - Jaren Jackson - 24

98/99 - 99/00
1. Tim Duncan - 7
2. Grant Hill - 9.5
3. Rasheed Wallace - 12
4. Steve Smith - 13
5. John Stockton - 14
6. PJ Brown - 14.5
7. Robert Horry - 16
8(tie). Kevin Garnett - 19.5
8(tie). Derek Fisher - 19.5
10. Vince Carter - 20

99/00 - 00/01
1. John Stockton - 4.5
2. Tim Duncan - 5.5
3. Derek Fisher - 14.5
4(tie). Vince Carter - 15
4(tie). PJ Brown - 15
6. Dirk Nowitzki - 17
7. Rasheed Wallace - 19
8. Kurt Thomas - 22.5
9. Kobe Bryant - 25
10. Kevin Garnett - 25.5

00/01 - 01/02
1. Dirk Nowitzki - 2.5
2. John Stockton - 9.5
3. Rasheed Wallace - 10.5
4. Tim Duncan - 13.5
5. Steve Francis - 16.5
6. David Robinson - 20
7. Rashard Lewis - 20.5
8. Kevin Garnett - 22.5
9(tie) - Tracy McGrady - 25.5
9(tie) - Horace Grant - 25.5

01/02 - 02/03
1. Dirk Nowitzki - 2
2. Kevin Garnett - 7
3. Eduardo Najera - 10.5
4. Tim Duncan - 15
5. Rasheed Wallace - 18.5
6. Ryan Bowen - 19.5
7. Paul Pierce - 21.5
8. Jason Kidd - 22
9. Shaquille O'Neal - 24
10. Baron Davis - 24.5

02/03 - 03/04
1. Kevin Garnett - 1.5
2. Dirk Nowitzki - 3.5
3. Ron Artest/Metta World Peace - 6.5
4. Tim Duncan - 8.5
5. Jason Kidd - 12
6. Ray Allen - 14.5
7. Rasheed Wallace - 18.5
8. Michael Finley - 19.5
9. Baron Davis - 20.5
10. Vince Carter - 22.5

03/04 - 04/05
1. Dirk Nowitzki - 4.5
2. Tim Duncan - 5.5
3. Jason Kidd - 7.5
4. Jeff Foster - 13
5. Jamal Tinsley - 14
6. Reggie Miller - 16
7. Andrei Kirilenko - 20
8. Manu Ginobli - 21.5
9. Kevin Garnett - 24
10. Ray Allen - 28

04/05 - 05/06
1(tie). Dirk Nowitzki - 3.5
1(tie). Manu Ginobli - 3.5
3. Andrei Kirilenko - 18
4. Jason Terry - 20
5. Scott Pollard - 22.5
6(tie). Tracy McGrady - 23.5
6(tie). Robert Horry - 23.5
8. Elton Brand - 25.5
9. Eddie Jones - 26
10. Rasheed Wallace - 27

05/06 - 06/07
1. Dirk Nowitzki - 3.5
2. Manu Ginobli - 5
3. Jason Terry - 8
4. Dwyane Wade - 10.5
5. Kevin Garnett - 13
6(tie). LeBron James - 14.5
6(tie). Kobe Bryant - 14.5
8(tie). Yao Ming - 21
8(tie). Luol Deng - 21
10(tie). Tracy McGrady - 24
10(tie). Michael Redd - 24

06/07 - 07/08
1. Dirk Nowitzki - 2.5
2. Manu Ginobli - 4.5
3. Kevin Garnett - 5.5
4. Jason Terry - 6.5
5. Chuck Hayes - 7.5
6. Chauncey Billups - 11.5
7. Paul Pierce - 13
8(tie). Kobe Bryant - 17.5
8(tie). Rafer Alston - 17.5
10. LeBron James - 20

07/08 - 08/09
1. Kevin Garnett - 4
2. LeBron James - 13
3. Kobe Bryant - 14
4. Amir Johnson - 16.5
5. Rasheed Wallace - 19.5
6. Chauncey Billups - 21
7. Josh Howard - 22
8. Dirk Nowitzki - 23.5
9. Lamar Odom - 24.5
10. Peja Stojakovic - 25

08/09 - 09/10
1. LeBron James - 2
2. Ray Allen - 3.5
3. Dwyane Wade - 4
4. Kobe Bryant - 14
5. Chris Paul - 17.5
6. Kevin Garnett - 18.5
7. Andrew Bogut - 20
8. Danny Granger - 22.5
9. Lamar Odom - 26
10. Jason Kidd - 26.5

09/10 - 10/11
1. LeBron James - 4
2. Kevin Durant - 5
3. Dirk Nowitzki - 5.5
4. Dwyane Wade - 10.5
5(tie). Vince Carter - 11
5(tie). Manu Ginobli - 11
7. Chris Bosh - 12
8. Kevin Garnett - 17
9. Nick Collison - 18.5
10. Chris Paul - 19

10/11 - 11/12
1. Dirk Nowitzki - 2
2. Kevin Garnett - 4.5
3. Manu Ginobli - 6.5
4. Chris Paul - 7
5. LeBron James - 10
6. Vince Carter - 10.5
7. Mike Conley - 12.5
8. Paul Millsap - 14
9. Beno Udoh - 15
10(tie). Chris Bosh - 15.5
10(tie). Matt Bonner - 15.5

11/12 - 12/13
1. Vince Carter - 3.5
2. Mike Conley - 6
3(tie). Chris Paul - 9
3(tie). Tony Parker - 9
5. LeBron James - 9.5
6. Tim Duncan - 16
7. Thaddeus Young - 16.5
8(tie). Kevin Durant - 19.5
8(tie). Nick Collison - 19.5
10(tie). Kevin Garnett - 20.5
10(tie). Taj Gibson - 20.5

12/13 - 13/14
1. Kevin Durant - 4.5
2. Chris Paul - 7
3. Nick Collison - 14.5
4. Andre Iguodala - 15
5. Tiago Splitter - 23
6. LeBron James - 25.5
7. Russell Westbrook - 26.5
8. Vince Carter - 28.5
9. Patrick Beverley - 29.5
10. DeMarre Carroll - 31.5

13/14 - 14/15
1. Steph Curry - 5
2. Klay Thompson - 6
3. Chris Paul - 9
4. Andre Iguodala - 11.5
5. Draymond Green - 13.5
6. Kawhi Leonard - 14
7. Danny Green - 15
8. James Harden - 33
9. Serge Ibaka - 19
10. CJ Miles - 21

14/15 - 15/16
1. Steph Curry - 2.5
2. Draymond Green - 3
3. Kyle Korver - 3.5
4. LeBron James - 4
5. Kawhi Leonard - 7
6. Khris Middleton - 9
7. Klay Thompson - 11
8. Chris Paul - 12
9. James Harden - 18
10. Wes Matthews - 19.5

15/16 - 16/17
1. Steph Curry - 1.5
2. Draymond Green - 3.5
3(tie). LeBron James - 5.5
3(tie). Chris Paul - 5.5
5. Kyle Lowry - 6.5
6. Kawhi Leonard - 9
7. Kevin Durant - 12.5
8. Nikola Jokic - 15
9(tie). Russell Westbrook - 15.5
9(tie). Klay Thompson - 15.5

16/17 - 17/18
1. Steph Curry - 1
2. Chris Paul - 3.5
3. Jimmy Butler - 11.5
4. Nikola Jokic - 15
5. Victor Oladipo - 15.5
6. Eric Gordon - 19.5
7. Joel Embiid - 22.5
8(tie). Draymond Green - 23
8(tie). Anthony Davis - 23
10. James Harden - 23.5

17/18 - 18/19
1. Steph Curry - 2
2. Joel Embiid - 6
3. Jrue Holiday - 7
4. Damian Lillard - 10.5
5. Chris Paul - 12.5
6. Jimmy Butler - 15
7. Eric Gordon - 16
8. Danuel House - 16.5
9. Al Horford - 18
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo - 18.5

[Warriors Analyst]

The idea the Curry is a product of this era’s rules is laughable to me. His shooting is a gamebreaker in any era. Imagine him in the illegal defense era: he’d run that high pick and roll at the logo, sauté both defenders, and get an open 3 every time, since the defense wouldn’t be allowed to switch another guy onto him.

I’d guess that most opposing teams would make it to just before halftime, before their center loses it and swings at him

In any era? Let him throw 2 bricks in a row from the logo without a 3pt line and the coach will shoot him right there on the spot. Then plead temporary insanity and get out of jail.

Also in the illegal defense era they'll probably switch on him on one end and then punish him mano-a-mano on the other...we all know what a stellar defender he is

Curry is 6'3 and 190 pounds. He's bigger than Mark Price and some of the obviously inferior 90's guards he gets compared to. Steph would be fine defensively in that era. If anything, he'd be better with the ability to handcheck.

[Air Apparent]

Curry is a system player who benefitted from the league not enforcing moving screens. He's not a top 5 or top 3 in any list .

Curry is the system.

i need this on a t-shirt

[Flash Falcon X]

Lol @ people thinking Steph can't play physical. He's been getting roughed up ever since the 2013 Playoffs when Denver's strategy was to grab him all game. Ever since then he gets hacked on every possession, and gets grabbed every time he plays off-ball cause refs aren't looking. All this and he can still drop 40+ on any given night. People act like in the 90s the defense would tackle the ballhandler on every single possession.








People love to mention Finals MVP awards but lets see how many people would rather build a team with 2015 Iguodala over 2015 Steph Curry.

And how is Steph a system player when he can score from anywhere on the court? Even within the 3 point line, he's one of the best guards at finishing in the rim. You just don't see it highlighted as much because his shooting is just too spectacular. People forget in his unanimous MVP season he was killing teams in only 3 quarters; fewest minutes per game of any scoring champ, and majority of the 9 losses in that 73-9 season were against sub .500 teams when the team was coasting. It's a shame he injured his knee in the 2016 Playoffs but he's done more than enough to prove his capabilities.

People love to call him a sidekick to KD, but when it comes time to bash KD in an anti-KD thread those same people say KD had to join a legendary 73-9 team just to win a championship. Okay so now Steph is a leader of a legendary team when it's time to hate on KD, but when it's time to hate on Steph he's just a sidekick to KD? Make up your minds. People also bring up Magic but fail to mention Magic played with the all-time scoring leader in NBA history. Kareeeeem??? But yet Magic isn't a sidekick, but Steph is a sidekick type of player?

And if it's a thread to hate on Draymond or Klay, people say Draymond is an overrated donkey and Klay only makes All-Star teams because of his team's records, but now that it's time to hate on Steph, those same people calling Draymond/Klay overrated say the Warriors got lucky the Cavs got injured in 2015. But doesn't that make it just Steph vs LeBron head to head? The other guys (Draymond/Klay) aren't real All-Stars, right?

This thread--and most of the replies--is a product of recency bias. Easy to discredit Steph when he's not in the picture this season.

[therealbig3]

Again, I see a lot of feel here and not much evidence.

Here's some playoff facts about Steph:

Averages 26.5/5.4/6.3 across seven years of playoff appearances with a .61TS%. Name me a PG who has come close to this?

And before you bring up his finals "struggles" here are his numbers:
2015 Finals averages: 26.0 points, 6.3 assists, and 5.2 rebounds
2016 Finals averages: 22.6 points, 4.9 rebounds, and 3.7 assists
2017 Finals averages: 26.8 points, 9.4 assists, 8.0 rebounds
2018 Finals averages: 27.5 points, 6.8 assists, and 6.0 rebounds
2019 Finals averages: 30.5 PTS, 5.2 REB, 6.0 AST

3 rings to go with it. But sure, he has struggled. Should have scored 40 a game I guess.

And if you like +/- he has been top 5 across the league for the last 5 years (before this year) on RPM. Playoff RAPM for the past 2 decades (since 98) has him top 10 (top PG): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQdG8Zv84zqKEzETDjd8KPsClcw9bPETX9v_x_KEAxjv9NrFaWikOoiSaciy1jbMiygg2D-V8DUQn0O/pubhtml?gid=112475182&single=true

I can go on if you want. But if at any point someone wants to post a factual argument for Curry being outside top 3 I'm all ears. Enough feels, show some numbers.

Lol you totally ignored my post then. It’s a statistical fact that the Suns were a far more effective playoff offense than the Warriors have been, and Nash himself averaged 20/11 on 60% TS from 05-10 in the playoffs. And Nash was also among the league leaders in RAPM during his prime.

He just didn’t get fazed by double teams and traps the way Curry does, because he was a much better overall passer and decision-maker.

As far as Magic and Oscar are concerned, same thing, they put up impressive stat lines themselves and they didn’t get affected by playoff defense to the same degree. In the RS, Curry might be the GOAT offensive player, but in the PS, he’s far from that.

Post the statistical fact then. In fact post any statistical fact. You're strong with opinions but not backing them up.

First of all, stat lines for Magic and Oscar and Nash in the playoffs during their best playoff stretches to compare to Curry in 2015-2019.

Magic 84-91: 20/13/7 on 60% TS and 124 Orating
Oscar 62-67: 30/9/9 on 57% TS (Orating unavailable)
Nash 05-10: 20/11/4 on 60% TS and 118 Orating

Curry 15-19: 27/6/6 on 62% TS and 116 Orating

To act like Curry has such a clearly superior stat line is weird, because he doesn't.

Then to go further into the point of how his team does offensively in relation to Nash's, I've actually looked at how teams with their best player on the court do in the playoffs, relative to the defense they faced, for everyone that got to at least the conference finals (so that these teams face a variety of opponents and have a better sample size).

So there are 76 teams that we have data for so far (on/off data goes back to 2001). If we compare the 15-19 Warriors to the 05, 06, and 10 Suns offensively:

15 Warriors with Curry on the court: +3.3 (52nd)
16 Warriors with Curry on the court: +5.7 (34th)
17 Warriors with Curry on the court: +18.4 (1st)
18 Warriors with Curry on the court: +8.0 (23rd)
19 Warriors with Curry on the court: +7.6 (25th)

05 Suns with Nash on the court: +16.7 (3rd)
06 Suns with Nash on the court: +11.7 (8th)
10 Suns with Nash on the court: +15.4 (4th)

The average playoff offense for all 76 teams ended up being +5.9 (makes sense, conference finalists tend to do well offensively). With that context in mind, the 15 and 16 Warriors were actually below average offensively in the playoffs with Curry on the court. The 18 and 19 Warriors were solid but not that special offensively (but he gets a pass for 19, given all the injuries). The 17 Warriors are the best playoff offense of all time with Curry on the court, but that was the year they just got Kevin Durant and he arguably played just as big of a role in that dominant run as Curry did.

Meanwhile, Nash anchored nearly as good of a playoff offense in 05 without nearly the same level of support, and again anchored top 10 playoff offenses in 06 and 10, with even worse support at that time.

Outside of 17, Curry never managed to anchor a top 20 playoff offense, even with Kevin Durant. Nash led a top 10 offense every time he had a decent enough team that he could lead deep into the playoffs.

So those are the numbers that support Nash as an offensive player over Curry. IMO, the "why" behind it is because Curry is not as good as Nash in terms of reading and breaking down defenses and making good decisions under pressure. In that sense, Nash is a more unguardable offensive force, and therefore, is a better offensive player...and a better overall player, since Curry's defense isn't that much better. He couldn't be slowed down to the same degree as Curry has been.

[Clyde Frazier]

Regardless of whether or not either statement in the thread title is true, one doesn't automatically rely on the other to be true.

[NZB2323]

I disagree with that, as I believe Nash would have thrived in any era. He did start his career pre-hand-check era and is an amazing playmaker which is always an asset.

Played well, yes he did. But he wasn't a 2 time MVP, this happened after the rule changes.

And IT won his championships after Kareem retired, the Celtics got injured, and Scottie Pippen had a migraine. He never beat a prime Lakers, Celtics, or Bulls team in the playoffs.

If we talk about asterisks - Curry won his chips by beating Kyrie-less twice and Love+Kyrie-less Cavs once. Two of these titles while teaming up with the leagues best player, Kevin Durant AFTER, I repeat AFTER, the Cavs lit them up with the same Irving being healthy causing the Warriors to lose after taking 3-1 series lead
Then Durant got injured and he couldn't bring home the bacon against Lowry and Van Fleet


Here is the deal - Curry would be a good player in any era, but without the coaches allowing him to chuck 35 footers('member, no 3-pt line before 1980), the defenders be allowed to go at him on offence and defense, the refs calling moving screens and superteams being created - He might get 1 ring if the stars align....oh I forgot, the Warriors got lucky with the salary cap as well.

There is NO WAY he is better than Walt Frazier and Isiah Thomas.

So your argument is that Curry wouldn’t do well in a NBA without a 3 point line? That’s silly. That’s like saying Iverson wouldn’t be able to cross people over if he played in 1891 and dribbling was against the rules. And Jordan wouldn’t be a prolific scorer if he played when guards were only supposed to guard and not shoot the ball. I guess Steve Nash’s 7 seconds or left offense would be pretty silly if there was no shot clock.

[Biff]

Curry is a system player who benefitted from the league not enforcing moving screens. He's not a top 5 or top 3 in any list .

Preach on, preach on. He is the same as Nash -a player that can thrive in a specific basketball environment, rules and team.

Magic, Zeke, Walt Frazier, Big O, Kidd, Cousy, Stockton, GP are all above him. Then you have Nate Archibald, Billups, Nash, Westbrook, CP3 alongside Curry in the second cohort...maybe add Slater Martin in here to have another OG.

Oh, and I have AI3 as SG.

And people calling Zeke overrated, we are not speaking about GM skills here folks He was 1 bad call away from THREE PEAT in the era of Bird, Magic and Jordan.

The Pistons were 1 bad call from a 3-peat, not IT. And Dumars, if you'll remember, was Finals MVP in 89. IT was a very good PG but his advanced stats aren't great. I can't see how you could argue for him as top 3 outside of what the Pistons did as team. And that Pistons team was just stacked. Dumars (who Jordan called the best defender he ever faced), Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley, VJ, Mahorn, Edwards. The team, for that era, had almost no weaknesses and they were terrifying defensively. IT is a great player but he played on an even greater team. He just doesn't have the stats to back up his claim as one of the best PG's of all time.

[Hroz]

Lol Ops list is a joke.

Anyways I have him 2nd or 3rd just ahead of Thomas & Stockton. Just behind Magic & debatable with Oscar.

[Brofessor24]

IMO definitely better than Stockton, that's for damn sure.

The highest that Stockton ever finished in the MVP race (in any given season) was 7th.

[dhsilv2]

Zeke is just so comically overrated

[WarriorGM]

First of all, stat lines for Magic and Oscar and Nash in the playoffs during their best playoff stretches to compare to Curry in 2015-2019.

Magic 84-91: 20/13/7 on 60% TS and 124 Orating
Oscar 62-67: 30/9/9 on 57% TS (Orating unavailable)
Nash 05-10: 20/11/4 on 60% TS and 118 Orating

Curry 15-19: 27/6/6 on 62% TS and 116 Orating

To act like Curry has such a clearly superior stat line is weird, because he doesn't.

The TS% gap in relation to Oscar is significant especially when one considers the higher pace of Oscar's era inflates what at first blush would appear to be superior box score numbers.

That would largely leave a comparison with Curry's better scoring numbers against Magic's and Nash's assist numbers. But Curry creates scoring opportunities for his teammates with his gravity that neither Magic nor Nash can match that Curry routinely gets no credit for in the box score or stats derived from it despite being essential to the creation of the scoring opportunities.

Then to go further into the point of how his team does offensively in relation to Nash's, I've actually looked at how teams with their best player on the court do in the playoffs, relative to the defense they faced, for everyone that got to at least the conference finals (so that these teams face a variety of opponents and have a better sample size).

So there are 76 teams that we have data for so far (on/off data goes back to 2001). If we compare the 15-19 Warriors to the 05, 06, and 10 Suns offensively:

15 Warriors with Curry on the court: +3.3 (52nd)
16 Warriors with Curry on the court: +5.7 (34th)
17 Warriors with Curry on the court: +18.4 (1st)
18 Warriors with Curry on the court: +8.0 (23rd)
19 Warriors with Curry on the court: +7.6 (25th)

05 Suns with Nash on the court: +16.7 (3rd)
06 Suns with Nash on the court: +11.7 (8th)
10 Suns with Nash on the court: +15.4 (4th)

The average playoff offense for all 76 teams ended up being +5.9 (makes sense, conference finalists tend to do well offensively). With that context in mind, the 15 and 16 Warriors were actually below average offensively in the playoffs with Curry on the court. The 18 and 19 Warriors were solid but not that special offensively (but he gets a pass for 19, given all the injuries). The 17 Warriors are the best playoff offense of all time with Curry on the court, but that was the year they just got Kevin Durant and he arguably played just as big of a role in that dominant run as Curry did.

Meanwhile, Nash anchored nearly as good of a playoff offense in 05 without nearly the same level of support, and again anchored top 10 playoff offenses in 06 and 10, with even worse support at that time.

Outside of 17, Curry never managed to anchor a top 20 playoff offense, even with Kevin Durant. Nash led a top 10 offense every time he had a decent enough team that he could lead deep into the playoffs.

So those are the numbers that support Nash as an offensive player over Curry. IMO, the "why" behind it is because Curry is not as good as Nash in terms of reading and breaking down defenses and making good decisions under pressure. In that sense, Nash is a more unguardable offensive force, and therefore, is a better offensive player...and a better overall player, since Curry's defense isn't that much better. He couldn't be slowed down to the same degree as Curry has been.

Your interpretation is a mess. Is your point about Nash's on/off numbers or the Sun's playoff offense? Either way they are of dubious value next to the numbers and interpretation that matters in this comparison: Nash zero finals appearances. Curry five finals appearances. Even without Durant Curry has two final appearances. We're also ignoring Nash did play with Dirk who is a pretty close Durant stand-in in history. That actually indicates Curry is more portable.

Curry's defense is superior. He was on a league leading defensive team once and top two in another. Curry was also called upon to defend iso against Harden and LeBron over and over and still ended up winning against them.

[therealbig3]

First of all, stat lines for Magic and Oscar and Nash in the playoffs during their best playoff stretches to compare to Curry in 2015-2019.

Magic 84-91: 20/13/7 on 60% TS and 124 Orating
Oscar 62-67: 30/9/9 on 57% TS (Orating unavailable)
Nash 05-10: 20/11/4 on 60% TS and 118 Orating

Curry 15-19: 27/6/6 on 62% TS and 116 Orating

To act like Curry has such a clearly superior stat line is weird, because he doesn't.

The TS% gap in relation to Oscar is significant especially when one considers the higher pace of Oscar's era inflates what at first blush would appear to be superior box score numbers.

That would largely leave a comparison with Curry's better scoring numbers against Magic's and Nash's assist numbers. But Curry creates scoring opportunities for his teammates with his gravity that neither Magic nor Nash can match that Curry routinely gets no credit for in the box score or stats derived from it despite being essential to the creation of the scoring opportunities.

Then to go further into the point of how his team does offensively in relation to Nash's, I've actually looked at how teams with their best player on the court do in the playoffs, relative to the defense they faced, for everyone that got to at least the conference finals (so that these teams face a variety of opponents and have a better sample size).

So there are 76 teams that we have data for so far (on/off data goes back to 2001). If we compare the 15-19 Warriors to the 05, 06, and 10 Suns offensively:

15 Warriors with Curry on the court: +3.3 (52nd)
16 Warriors with Curry on the court: +5.7 (34th)
17 Warriors with Curry on the court: +18.4 (1st)
18 Warriors with Curry on the court: +8.0 (23rd)
19 Warriors with Curry on the court: +7.6 (25th)

05 Suns with Nash on the court: +16.7 (3rd)
06 Suns with Nash on the court: +11.7 (8th)
10 Suns with Nash on the court: +15.4 (4th)

The average playoff offense for all 76 teams ended up being +5.9 (makes sense, conference finalists tend to do well offensively). With that context in mind, the 15 and 16 Warriors were actually below average offensively in the playoffs with Curry on the court. The 18 and 19 Warriors were solid but not that special offensively (but he gets a pass for 19, given all the injuries). The 17 Warriors are the best playoff offense of all time with Curry on the court, but that was the year they just got Kevin Durant and he arguably played just as big of a role in that dominant run as Curry did.

Meanwhile, Nash anchored nearly as good of a playoff offense in 05 without nearly the same level of support, and again anchored top 10 playoff offenses in 06 and 10, with even worse support at that time.

Outside of 17, Curry never managed to anchor a top 20 playoff offense, even with Kevin Durant. Nash led a top 10 offense every time he had a decent enough team that he could lead deep into the playoffs.

So those are the numbers that support Nash as an offensive player over Curry. IMO, the "why" behind it is because Curry is not as good as Nash in terms of reading and breaking down defenses and making good decisions under pressure. In that sense, Nash is a more unguardable offensive force, and therefore, is a better offensive player...and a better overall player, since Curry's defense isn't that much better. He couldn't be slowed down to the same degree as Curry has been.

Your interpretation is a mess. Is your point about Nash's on/off numbers or the Sun's playoff offense? Either way they are of dubious value next to the numbers and interpretation that matters in this comparison: Nash zero finals appearances. Curry five finals appearances. Even without Durant Curry has two final appearances. We're also ignoring Nash did play with Dirk who is a pretty close Durant stand-in in history. That actually indicates Curry is more portable.

Curry's defense is superior. He was on a league leading defensive team once and top two in another. Curry was also called upon to defend iso against Harden and LeBron over and over and still ended up winning against them.

Meh, dude asked for stats, I gave the stats. Then added my interpretation of the stats to support my conclusion that Nash>Curry.

If you disagree, fine, people think differently, and I'm not going to get into a back and forth over why I think your counter points are more of a mess than anything I posted.

[ILOVEIT]

Curry is a system player who benefitted from the league not enforcing moving screens. He's not a top 5 or top 3 in any list .

Curry is the system.

i need this on a t-shirt

THIS. Oh btw...changed the way the ENTIRE NBA IS PLAYED.

[ILOVEIT]

Lol you totally ignored my post then. It’s a statistical fact that the Suns were a far more effective playoff offense than the Warriors have been, and Nash himself averaged 20/11 on 60% TS from 05-10 in the playoffs. And Nash was also among the league leaders in RAPM during his prime.

He just didn’t get fazed by double teams and traps the way Curry does, because he was a much better overall passer and decision-maker.

As far as Magic and Oscar are concerned, same thing, they put up impressive stat lines themselves and they didn’t get affected by playoff defense to the same degree. In the RS, Curry might be the GOAT offensive player, but in the PS, he’s far from that.

Post the statistical fact then. In fact post any statistical fact. You're strong with opinions but not backing them up.

First of all, stat lines for Magic and Oscar and Nash in the playoffs during their best playoff stretches to compare to Curry in 2015-2019.

Magic 84-91: 20/13/7 on 60% TS and 124 Orating
Oscar 62-67: 30/9/9 on 57% TS (Orating unavailable)
Nash 05-10: 20/11/4 on 60% TS and 118 Orating

Curry 15-19: 27/6/6 on 62% TS and 116 Orating

To act like Curry has such a clearly superior stat line is weird, because he doesn't.

Then to go further into the point of how his team does offensively in relation to Nash's, I've actually looked at how teams with their best player on the court do in the playoffs, relative to the defense they faced, for everyone that got to at least the conference finals (so that these teams face a variety of opponents and have a better sample size).

So there are 76 teams that we have data for so far (on/off data goes back to 2001). If we compare the 15-19 Warriors to the 05, 06, and 10 Suns offensively:

15 Warriors with Curry on the court: +3.3 (52nd)
16 Warriors with Curry on the court: +5.7 (34th)
17 Warriors with Curry on the court: +18.4 (1st)
18 Warriors with Curry on the court: +8.0 (23rd)
19 Warriors with Curry on the court: +7.6 (25th)

05 Suns with Nash on the court: +16.7 (3rd)
06 Suns with Nash on the court: +11.7 (8th)
10 Suns with Nash on the court: +15.4 (4th)

The average playoff offense for all 76 teams ended up being +5.9 (makes sense, conference finalists tend to do well offensively). With that context in mind, the 15 and 16 Warriors were actually below average offensively in the playoffs with Curry on the court. The 18 and 19 Warriors were solid but not that special offensively (but he gets a pass for 19, given all the injuries). The 17 Warriors are the best playoff offense of all time with Curry on the court, but that was the year they just got Kevin Durant and he arguably played just as big of a role in that dominant run as Curry did.

Meanwhile, Nash anchored nearly as good of a playoff offense in 05 without nearly the same level of support, and again anchored top 10 playoff offenses in 06 and 10, with even worse support at that time.

Outside of 17, Curry never managed to anchor a top 20 playoff offense, even with Kevin Durant. Nash led a top 10 offense every time he had a decent enough team that he could lead deep into the playoffs.

So those are the numbers that support Nash as an offensive player over Curry. IMO, the "why" behind it is because Curry is not as good as Nash in terms of reading and breaking down defenses and making good decisions under pressure. In that sense, Nash is a more unguardable offensive force, and therefore, is a better offensive player...and a better overall player, since Curry's defense isn't that much better. He couldn't be slowed down to the same degree as Curry has been.

Nash is underrated IMO. Ironically for possibly similar reasons....smaller player so he doesn't LOOK like a dominant player. And....the possible inclusion of racial bias against lighter skinner ballers.

[Joerezz7]

Curry is a system player who benefitted from the league not enforcing moving screens. He's not a top 5 or top 3 in any list .

Preach on, preach on. He is the same as Nash -a player that can thrive in a specific basketball environment, rules and team.

Magic, Zeke, Walt Frazier, Big O, Kidd, Cousy, Stockton, GP are all above him. Then you have Nate Archibald, Billups, Nash, Westbrook, CP3 alongside Curry in the second cohort...maybe add Slater Martin in here to have another OG.

Oh, and I have AI3 as SG.

And people calling Zeke overrated, we are not speaking about GM skills here folks He was 1 bad call away from THREE PEAT in the era of Bird, Magic and Jordan.

BILLUPS AND CURRY IN THE SAME BREATH?!

He does have a FINALS MVP though so there’s that

[michaelm]

First of all, stat lines for Magic and Oscar and Nash in the playoffs during their best playoff stretches to compare to Curry in 2015-2019.

Magic 84-91: 20/13/7 on 60% TS and 124 Orating
Oscar 62-67: 30/9/9 on 57% TS (Orating unavailable)
Nash 05-10: 20/11/4 on 60% TS and 118 Orating

Curry 15-19: 27/6/6 on 62% TS and 116 Orating

To act like Curry has such a clearly superior stat line is weird, because he doesn't.

The TS% gap in relation to Oscar is significant especially when one considers the higher pace of Oscar's era inflates what at first blush would appear to be superior box score numbers.

That would largely leave a comparison with Curry's better scoring numbers against Magic's and Nash's assist numbers. But Curry creates scoring opportunities for his teammates with his gravity that neither Magic nor Nash can match that Curry routinely gets no credit for in the box score or stats derived from it despite being essential to the creation of the scoring opportunities.

Then to go further into the point of how his team does offensively in relation to Nash's, I've actually looked at how teams with their best player on the court do in the playoffs, relative to the defense they faced, for everyone that got to at least the conference finals (so that these teams face a variety of opponents and have a better sample size).

So there are 76 teams that we have data for so far (on/off data goes back to 2001). If we compare the 15-19 Warriors to the 05, 06, and 10 Suns offensively:

15 Warriors with Curry on the court: +3.3 (52nd)
16 Warriors with Curry on the court: +5.7 (34th)
17 Warriors with Curry on the court: +18.4 (1st)
18 Warriors with Curry on the court: +8.0 (23rd)
19 Warriors with Curry on the court: +7.6 (25th)

05 Suns with Nash on the court: +16.7 (3rd)
06 Suns with Nash on the court: +11.7 (8th)
10 Suns with Nash on the court: +15.4 (4th)

The average playoff offense for all 76 teams ended up being +5.9 (makes sense, conference finalists tend to do well offensively). With that context in mind, the 15 and 16 Warriors were actually below average offensively in the playoffs with Curry on the court. The 18 and 19 Warriors were solid but not that special offensively (but he gets a pass for 19, given all the injuries). The 17 Warriors are the best playoff offense of all time with Curry on the court, but that was the year they just got Kevin Durant and he arguably played just as big of a role in that dominant run as Curry did.

Meanwhile, Nash anchored nearly as good of a playoff offense in 05 without nearly the same level of support, and again anchored top 10 playoff offenses in 06 and 10, with even worse support at that time.

Outside of 17, Curry never managed to anchor a top 20 playoff offense, even with Kevin Durant. Nash led a top 10 offense every time he had a decent enough team that he could lead deep into the playoffs.

So those are the numbers that support Nash as an offensive player over Curry. IMO, the "why" behind it is because Curry is not as good as Nash in terms of reading and breaking down defenses and making good decisions under pressure. In that sense, Nash is a more unguardable offensive force, and therefore, is a better offensive player...and a better overall player, since Curry's defense isn't that much better. He couldn't be slowed down to the same degree as Curry has been.

Your interpretation is a mess. Is your point about Nash's on/off numbers or the Sun's playoff offense? Either way they are of dubious value next to the numbers and interpretation that matters in this comparison: Nash zero finals appearances. Curry five finals appearances. Even without Durant Curry has two final appearances. We're also ignoring Nash did play with Dirk who is a pretty close Durant stand-in in history. That actually indicates Curry is more portable.

Curry's defense is superior. He was on a league leading defensive team once and top two in another. Curry was also called upon to defend iso against Harden and LeBron over and over and still ended up winning against them.

That's the thing, and I love Nash as a player. The opposition in the play-offs mostly gets harder the further you go (the WCF vs the NBA finals in 2018 being one exception) and Curry's team made the finals every year for 5 years.

[michaelm]

Lol you totally ignored my post then. It’s a statistical fact that the Suns were a far more effective playoff offense than the Warriors have been, and Nash himself averaged 20/11 on 60% TS from 05-10 in the playoffs. And Nash was also among the league leaders in RAPM during his prime.

He just didn’t get fazed by double teams and traps the way Curry does, because he was a much better overall passer and decision-maker.

As far as Magic and Oscar are concerned, same thing, they put up impressive stat lines themselves and they didn’t get affected by playoff defense to the same degree. In the RS, Curry might be the GOAT offensive player, but in the PS, he’s far from that.

Post the statistical fact then. In fact post any statistical fact. You're strong with opinions but not backing them up.

First of all, stat lines for Magic and Oscar and Nash in the playoffs during their best playoff stretches to compare to Curry in 2015-2019.

Magic 84-91: 20/13/7 on 60% TS and 124 Orating
Oscar 62-67: 30/9/9 on 57% TS (Orating unavailable)
Nash 05-10: 20/11/4 on 60% TS and 118 Orating

Curry 15-19: 27/6/6 on 62% TS and 116 Orating

To act like Curry has such a clearly superior stat line is weird, because he doesn't.

Then to go further into the point of how his team does offensively in relation to Nash's, I've actually looked at how teams with their best player on the court do in the playoffs, relative to the defense they faced, for everyone that got to at least the conference finals (so that these teams face a variety of opponents and have a better sample size).

So there are 76 teams that we have data for so far (on/off data goes back to 2001). If we compare the 15-19 Warriors to the 05, 06, and 10 Suns offensively:

15 Warriors with Curry on the court: +3.3 (52nd)
16 Warriors with Curry on the court: +5.7 (34th)
17 Warriors with Curry on the court: +18.4 (1st)
18 Warriors with Curry on the court: +8.0 (23rd)
19 Warriors with Curry on the court: +7.6 (25th)

05 Suns with Nash on the court: +16.7 (3rd)
06 Suns with Nash on the court: +11.7 (8th)
10 Suns with Nash on the court: +15.4 (4th)

The average playoff offense for all 76 teams ended up being +5.9 (makes sense, conference finalists tend to do well offensively). With that context in mind, the 15 and 16 Warriors were actually below average offensively in the playoffs with Curry on the court. The 18 and 19 Warriors were solid but not that special offensively (but he gets a pass for 19, given all the injuries). The 17 Warriors are the best playoff offense of all time with Curry on the court, but that was the year they just got Kevin Durant and he arguably played just as big of a role in that dominant run as Curry did.

Meanwhile, Nash anchored nearly as good of a playoff offense in 05 without nearly the same level of support, and again anchored top 10 playoff offenses in 06 and 10, with even worse support at that time.

Outside of 17, Curry never managed to anchor a top 20 playoff offense, even with Kevin Durant. Nash led a top 10 offense every time he had a decent enough team that he could lead deep into the playoffs.

So those are the numbers that support Nash as an offensive player over Curry. IMO, the "why" behind it is because Curry is not as good as Nash in terms of reading and breaking down defenses and making good decisions under pressure. In that sense, Nash is a more unguardable offensive force, and therefore, is a better offensive player...and a better overall player, since Curry's defense isn't that much better. He couldn't be slowed down to the same degree as Curry has been.

Except for the small matter of Nash 's teams not going as deep into the play-offs and hence pretty much by definition playing against weaker teams, and the other small matter of them not winning. You also posted yourself his numbers on a team which is in contention for the best team of all time, and without any doubt a team which has the best or equal best play-offs record of all time.

[oaktownwarriors87]

This guy's trying to argue that IT is better than Curry and Stockton?