5 year plus-minus of various all-time nba peaks(Feat. Shaq, Lebron, Jordan, Robinson and Curry)

[Onus]

No I agree that Jordan's teammates did better without him. I think playing in a system that generates some points allows them to do it. I also think if Lebron played in a system that wasn't so Lebron dependent that his teammates would've done better as well. I'm really not sure why this is a hard concept to understand. Systems help role players to generate points. Superstars can deviate from systems because they're so good.

And no systems don't win championship, but they help raise the baseline of your team. And yes systems can be shut down and stars will have to take over to reset, but they help the others be involved and be competent so the stars don't have to do everything all the time.

I hope the specific years net offenses and defensive ratings will be posted to see where the plus minus numbers are coming from. As mentioned before, we don’t know where Jordan‘s teammates were doing well enough so that the drop off isn’t huge (offensively or defensively). The data that we do know, for example, shows that the bulls dropped off Massively offensively with Jordan off the court in the 1997 and 1998 playoffs. I charted the 1993 NBA finals, in the office of drop off there was a huge as well. Additionally, also discussed before, only LeBron seems to get called to account for this offensive drop off.

The Cavs with Kyrie were the worst with James off court and it was due to defense, not because the offense fell apart. Look at the 2020 Lakers—they didn’t fall apart with James off court because these players would up defending better than anyone thought they would.

Bron+ others created high ceiling pairings but the teammates let him down. When teammates made some open shots and played some defense like in 2020, Lakers steamrolled. And LeBron controlled the ball as much as he ever did in Los Angeles.

Jordan +Pippen, 1997: +11.5 in 656 minutes (BKREF numbers for before 2008j
Jordan + Pippen, 1998: +8.1 in 724 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2000: +4.1 in 794 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2001: +14.9 in 620 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2002: +8.1 in 697 minutes
Shaq + Kobe, 2003: +3.1 in 449 minutes
Kobe + Odom, 2009: +16.1 in 598 minutes
Kobe + Gasol, 2009: +10.2 in 831 minutes
LBJ + Wade, 2012: +13.5 in 799 minutes
LBJ + Wade, 2013: +.5 in 678 minutes
LBJ + Allen, 2013: +11.5 in 455 minutes
KD + Westbrook, 2014: +2.9 in 696 minutes
LBJ + Love, 2015: +15.9 in 99 minutes
LBJ + Tristan T., 2016: +16.9 in 547 minutes
LBJ + Love, 2016: +14.9 in 548 minutes
LBJ + Kyrie, 2016: +12.5 in 672 minutes
KD+ Westbrook, 2016: +10.1 in 592 minutes
LBJ + Kyrie, 2017: +12.7 in 593 minutes
LBJ + Love, 2017: +14.3 in 541 minutes (+22.3 before the finals)

The whole ridiculous “bRoN bALL” argument is only applied to him.

% Possessions in ISO

2021 Clippers, 14.7%
2018 Cavs, 13.7%
2017 Cavs, 15.6%
2016 Cavs, 13.8%

Strange this entire “LeBron’s teams struggle without him because he controls everything” only applies to him. Bulls offense went in the toilet in the playoffs without Jordan but that’s ignored.

When his teammates play well and make shots, the argument goes away. One of the biggest reasons the Lakers were so dominant in the playoffs in 2020 was because they played well with LeBron off court in non-garbage time minutes and LeBron in 2020 controlled the ball more than in any other season. Why did they do well? Because they made shots, especially AD being fed by Rondo. The offense was really good without LeBron on court in a season in which LeBron controlled the ball as much as ever.

2020 playoffs, Lebron off, AD ON
ORTG 118.5
DRTG 113.0
+5.5

With other minutes, mostly garbage time minutes, the Lakers were a negative with LeBron off, but the argument that the team struggles “because he controls everything” is not factually supported.

Bulls without Jordan in 1997 playoffs:
ORTG with Jordan, 108.3
ORTG without Jordan, 96.6
Overall without Jordan, -14.8

Bulls without Jordan in 1998 playoffs:

ORTG with Jordan, 110.2
ORTG without Jordan, 95.7
Overall without Jordan, -13.1

Bulls offense was falling apart without Jordan. Was that because “Jordan controlled everything”? There are multiple other examples too numerous to write down all here but it’s only James who somehow gets blamed for this. Is Shaq ball dominant who controls everything? Why wasn’t Kobe scoring when Shaq was off court? Was it because “Shaq controlled everything”?

Lakers’ playoffs ORTG without Shaq
1997, -11.9
1998, -9.8
1999, -6.9
2000, -13.9
2001, +5.3
2002, -22.1
2003, -16.0
2004, -22.8

Wade, Kyrie, Love, and his other supposed “super teammates” didn’t do much of anything with him off court even though they were running their own sets they were used to all season long, many of them ISO in which they’re good scorers but failed in the playoffs in limited possessions.

Respective Playoff ORTGs without James or Jordan or Shaq [using BKREF numbers for all for sake of ease]

BTW, Cavs had the drop off because the Cavs offenses had such high ceilings WITH LeBron and were better on offense than the Bulls were with Jordan even relative to league averages during the playoffs. If I broke it down by individual defenses faced, took out the Cavs/Heat/Lakers offenses from the league averages, it’s even more skewed in favor of James for the available data.

1997 Bulls offense with Jordan: 108.3 [+.9 rORtg]
1998 Bulls: 110.2 [+4.6 rORtg]
2006 Cavs: 104.0 [-4.2 rORtg]
2007 Cavs: 103.5 [-1.4 rORtg]
2008 Cavs: 106.6 [-.8 rORtg]
2009 Cavs: 115.1 [+7.4 rORtg]
2010 Cavs: 110.1 [+1.5 rORtg]
2011 Heat: 107.5 [+1.5 rORtg]
2012 Heat: 111.9 [+8.3 rORtg]
2013 Heat: 111.9 [+7.1 rORtg]
2014 Heat: 112.7 [+4.0 rORtg]
2015 Cavs: 107.3 [+2.0 rORtg]
2016 Cavs: 118.2 [+11.5 rORtg]
2017 Cavs: 124.0 [+12.7 rORtg]
2018 Cavs: 111.9 [+3.0 rORtg ]
2020 Lakers: 118.3 [+7.0 rORtg]

Now look at some of these offenses without James, Shaq, and Jordan.

2021 Lakers, -30.5 without James
2004, Lakers -22.8 without Shaq
2008 Cavs, -22.2 without James [limited off court minutes since James basically played entire games]
2002 Lakers, -22.1 without Shaq
2017 Cavs, -19.9 without James
2003 Lakers, -16.0 without Shaq
2012 Heat, -15.0 without James
1998 Bulls, -14.5 without Jordan
2010 Cavs, -14.1 without James [limited off court minutes]
2018 Cavs, -14.1 without James
2000 Lakers, -13.9 without Shaq
2016 Cavs, -12.6 without James
1997 Lakers, -11.9 without Shaq
1997 Bulls, -11.7 without Jordan
2007 Cavs, -10.3 without James [limited off court minutes]
1998 Lakers, -9.8 without Shaq
2013 Heat, -8.7 without James
2009 Cavs, -7.8 without James
1999 Lakers, -6.9 without Shaq
2011 Heat, -5.2 without James
2020 Lakers, -4.6 without James
2015 Cavs, -2.5 without James
2014 Heat, +2.0 without James [collapsed defensively]
2001 Lakers, +5.3 without Shaq [Kobe played great and role players made shots]

Hmm…looks like Jordan’s Bulls’ offense fell off of a cliff without him. Is that because Jordan controlled everything? And what about Shaq – how come we never hear about the Lakers offenses falling apart without him? Is he controlling everything, too?

People have stated that the problem with “LeBron ball” is that teams fall apart with him off court and I’ve shown you a) a team that didn’t even though he controlled the ball as much as in any season, i.e., 2020 and other LeBron seasons in which the offense didn’t fall apart but that James just created a high all time ceiling, and b) other ATG players’ offenses collapsing without them, e.g., Jordan’s and Shaq’s (I didn’t even get into Curry and Dirk and others), but this argument is never used against them. Additionally, LeBron offenses are some of the greatest ever created (see lost above) and there’s greater room to “fall”; in this case, LeBron is being punished for BEING a ceiling raiser since others cannot replicate what he did on court.

I think it cannot be stated enough.

Among jordan, lebron and curry there is one player who has played all sorts of different roles (offensively AND defensively) in different systems with differebt kind of co-stars and with different coaches and won in all of them.......And is not jordan or curry

Jordan doesnt change his approach and his 90's teams all follow the same formula with the same sidekick (pippen), coach and system (jackson and the triangle) and jordan playing the same role in them

More importantly and i cannot get tired of saying this

Lebron is literally the only player who is criticized rather than praised for lifting teams that struggle without him

No jordan, kobe, curry, jokic, giannis anyone. All of them are praised more the worse their teams are without them.(depending on how much they lift them)

the only player who is criticized for his teams struggling without him is lebron

The whole mvp race this season was defiend by jokic lifting denver to similar heights than giannis did the bucks or embiid the sixers when he was on-court but denver being the worse off the 3 without their star

NOBODY and i mean absolutely NOBODY ever praised giannis over jokic cause bucks without giannis were a lot better than denver without jokic

The whole concept of lebron lifting a worse team (OFF) to the same heights (ON) and being seen as less impressive is outright absurd if you translate it to any other player comparision

I think it's because no one actually believes that those offs should be so bad. When you have 2 other all stars on your team there is no reason for Lebron's off to be so bad. How can all stars be so bad when they play on lebron's team?

*edit see post on previous page, which makes more sense why those offs were so bad. Which kind of goes to my point that if they had a system that everyone bought into offensively they should've been better. But instead it was more spread pick and roll, isolations. There was no team concept.

[Onus]

Billion different teammates yet for the most part they all end up being pretty similar. All star big man who ends up becoming a spot up jump shooter. Defenders that can shoot the 3 around them.

Yeah, I think what we've seen is that the LeBron approach is to do as much of the things himself, and then everyone else needs to find a niche to add on top of him. One man can't be in two places at once, so 3 & D is basically what you'd like from every one of his teammates.

How one could watch the 2010 Cavaliers or The 2014 Heat or The 2017 Cavaliers or The 2020 Lakers and think these teams have anything in common other than Lebron James being on them? Hell, the 2011 Heat and 2013 Heat are basically 2 entirely different teams offensively and they're separated by just 2yrs.

Seriously,
2011 ECF Gm.3
https://vk.com/video480897329_456239022?t=40m59s
2013 ECF Gm.2
https://vk.com/video480897329_456239020?t=50m17s

Just a gross misunderstanding of Lebron's game and why he is who is.

How can you look at his co-star's (Wade, Irving, Davis); see the monumental differences in their games and say that all Lebrons teams play the same? They aint all running the triangle.

I admit that on the heat Lebron played differently. But everything else is pretty much spread floor, high pick and roll for the most part. I'm very curious as what the monumental differences were between the 2nd stint cavs and the lakers were?

[Doctor MJ]

Billion different teammates yet for the most part they all end up being pretty similar. All star big man who ends up becoming a spot up jump shooter. Defenders that can shoot the 3 around them.

Yeah, I think what we've seen is that the LeBron approach is to do as much of the things himself, and then everyone else needs to find a niche to add on top of him. One man can't be in two places at once, so 3 & D is basically what you'd like from every one of his teammates.

How one could watch the 2010 Cavaliers or The 2014 Heat or The 2017 Cavaliers or The 2020 Lakers and think these teams have anything in common other than Lebron James being on them? Hell, the 2011 Heat and 2013 Heat are basically 2 entirely different teams offensively and they're separated by just 2yrs.

Seriously,
2011 ECF Gm.3
https://vk.com/video480897329_456239022?t=40m59s
2013 ECF Gm.2
https://vk.com/video480897329_456239020?t=50m17s

Just a gross misunderstanding of Lebron's game and why he is who is.

How can you look at his co-star's (Wade, Irving, Davis); see the monumental differences in their games and say that all Lebrons teams play the same? They aint all running the triangle.

The limitations on Wade & Davis' outside shooting is part of what I'm talking about.

Miami was different from the two Cavs stints in no small part because Wade lacked the ability to shoot from outside. This resulted in them pushing Bosh to the 5 so they could get better spacing.

The Lakers won their title with AD having a miraculous shooting performance, but beyond that, have really suffered when they don't have proper shooting on the team.

Hence, I'm not saying that all of LeBron's teams played the same, only that there's a clear offensive ideal for building around him which involves putting as much shooting around him as possible.

To be clear, this isn't necessarily a "bad thing". It makes it really easy to know how to build around him.

[Texas Chuck]

literally every star benefits offensively from having more shooting around him. This is not unique in any way to Lebron. Even Steph, the GOAT shooter benefits from more shooters around him. Nash benefited from shooting around him. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, you name the great offensive player--shooting really helps.

[falcolombardi]

Yeah, I think what we've seen is that the LeBron approach is to do as much of the things himself, and then everyone else needs to find a niche to add on top of him. One man can't be in two places at once, so 3 & D is basically what you'd like from every one of his teammates.

How one could watch the 2010 Cavaliers or The 2014 Heat or The 2017 Cavaliers or The 2020 Lakers and think these teams have anything in common other than Lebron James being on them? Hell, the 2011 Heat and 2013 Heat are basically 2 entirely different teams offensively and they're separated by just 2yrs.

Seriously,
2011 ECF Gm.3
https://vk.com/video480897329_456239022?t=40m59s
2013 ECF Gm.2
https://vk.com/video480897329_456239020?t=50m17s

Just a gross misunderstanding of Lebron's game and why he is who is.

How can you look at his co-star's (Wade, Irving, Davis); see the monumental differences in their games and say that all Lebrons teams play the same? They aint all running the triangle.

The limitations on Wade & Davis' outside shooting is part of what I'm talking about.

Miami was different from the two Cavs stints in no small part because Wade lacked the ability to shoot from outside. This resulted in them pushing Bosh to the 5 so they could get better spacing.

The Lakers won their title with AD having a miraculous shooting performance, but beyond that, have really suffered when they don't have proper shooting on the team.

Hence, I'm not saying that all of LeBron's teams played the same, only that there's a clear offensive ideal for building around him which involves putting as much shooting around him as possible.

To be clear, this isn't necessarily a "bad thing". It makes it really easy to know how to build around him.

That seems a bit too general

Every player and system universally benefits from shooting. Just as they benefit from good passing teammates or good defensive teammates

You can argue players like curry or miller need less spacing than lebron to have their max impact

But alternatively players like curry or miller need quality passers more for their off-ball style to work

The proportion of how much a player "needs" spacing or passing to thrive may vary. But everyone benefits from those thinghs universally

And champion level teams usually have all of them around their star (defenders, shooters, high iq passers)

[falcolombardi]

literally every star benefits offensively from having more shooting around him. This is not unique in any way to Lebron. Even Steph, the GOAT shooter benefits from more shooters around him. Nash benefited from shooting around him. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, you name the great offensive player--shooting really helps.

The whole reasoning for why warriors offense struggle in 2021 was that they didnt have the passers and spacing needed to run their system and same thingh about blaming harrison barnes bad shooting for their offense struggles at the end of 16 finals

Beneffiting from shooters is not a lebron thinfh but a basketball thingh

[eminence]

literally every star benefits offensively from having more shooting around him. This is not unique in any way to Lebron. Even Steph, the GOAT shooter benefits from more shooters around him. Nash benefited from shooting around him. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, you name the great offensive player--shooting really helps.

No room for nuance Chuck?

[Texas Chuck]

literally every star benefits offensively from having more shooting around him. This is not unique in any way to Lebron. Even Steph, the GOAT shooter benefits from more shooters around him. Nash benefited from shooting around him. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, you name the great offensive player--shooting really helps.

No room for nuance Chuck?

Is that your takeaway? That I can't/don't/won't appreciate nuance because I accurately believe every player benefits from shooting?

Okay I guess.

[Doctor MJ]

literally every star benefits offensively from having more shooting around him. This is not unique in any way to Lebron. Even Steph, the GOAT shooter benefits from more shooters around him. Nash benefited from shooting around him. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, you name the great offensive player--shooting really helps.

Of course, but what I'm saying is that it becomes a priority with LeBron beyond other teammate skills in a way it isn't next to someone like Curry.

Is standing outside the arc the best use of Bosh or Love in all contexts? Absolutely not, but it was what was needed with LeBron.

What would Draymond Green do if he were on LeBron's team? Stand outside the arc and shoot 3's, and if he couldn't do it well enough, you'd bench him.

It's tricky with someone like LeBron to have a second superstar offensive talent actually play as his best self, because most such talents are what they are because they can do so much more offensively.

And yeah, obviously it's going to be similar someone like Luka, who is a very similar offensive player to LeBron, or Giannis, who isn't a shooter and thus needs space above all else created for him in order to be himself on offense.

Spacing helps Jokic too, and arguably helps him even more than LeBron, but the way he plays works better with offensive talents that do more than shoot 3 because Jokic is so quick to pass the ball.

Finally, a key point here is this:

While everyone benefits from spacing, those who are the best at creating spacing obviously need less space creation from others. Jokic, whose lack of physical quickness makes him more dependent on spacing than LeBron, has the advantage of being a better shooter, which allows him to create some of the space he needs.

Curry? Off-the-charts spacing impact allows the Warriors to play with less shooters on the floor than other teams. For perspective here consider the finals we just watched. Here are the 5 top minute guys from that series for each team:

Curry / Thompson / Wiggins / Green / Looney - 3 solid 3-point shooters out of their 5 mains
Smart / White / Brown / Tatum / Horford - 5 solid 3-point shooters out of their 5 mains

That's overselling it a bit because Poole (shooter) played a lot for the Warriors and Timelord (non-shooter) played a lot for the Celtics, but quite literally the Celtics were leaning harder on having as many guys who can shoot from range as possible than the Warriors were.

I've noted before that when we project the 2nd 3-peat Bulls into the future, it's not so much that you couldn't expect a Jordan-Pippen led team to compete for the title, but that you'd have to change how the role players played. Some would just be out of a job, but a guy like Rodman is worth noting because he might find a way to be quite valuable today...but he wouldn't be able to focus on offensive rebounding to the exclusion of shooting like he did back then. He'd need to be a threat to shoot from 3.

But when you have a guy who can shoot from range like Curry, you actually can play a 5 whose main offensive job is offensive rebounding like Looney while also having a 4 who doesn't focus on shooting either.

In a bizarre way, the radically different way Curry plays as a star allows his supporting cast to be more like a traditional supporting cast in the middle of things rather than standing on the edge of the court waiting for the ball to be thrown to them.

[falcolombardi]

literally every star benefits offensively from having more shooting around him. This is not unique in any way to Lebron. Even Steph, the GOAT shooter benefits from more shooters around him. Nash benefited from shooting around him. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, you name the great offensive player--shooting really helps.

Of course, but what I'm saying is that it becomes a priority with LeBron beyond other teammate skills in a way it isn't next to someone like Curry.

Is standing outside the arc the best use of Bosh or Love in all contexts? Absolutely not, but it was what was needed with LeBron.

What would Draymond Green do if he were on LeBron's team? Stand outside the arc and shoot 3's, and if he couldn't do it well enough, you'd bench him.

It's tricky with someone like LeBron to have a second superstar offensive talent actually play as his best self, because most such talents are what they are because they can do so much more offensively.

And yeah, obviously it's going to be similar someone like Luka, who is a very similar offensive player to LeBron, or Giannis, who isn't a shooter and thus needs space above all else created for him in order to be himself on offense.

Spacing helps Jokic too, and arguably helps him even more than LeBron, but the way he plays works better with offensive talents that do more than shoot 3 because Jokic is so quick to pass the ball.

Finally, a key point here is this:

While everyone benefits from spacing, those who are the best at creating spacing obviously need less space creation from others. Jokic, whose lack of physical quickness makes him more dependent on spacing than LeBron, has the advantage of being a better shooter, which allows him to create some of the space he needs.

Curry? Off-the-charts spacing impact allows the Warriors to play with less shooters on the floor than other teams. For perspective here consider the finals we just watched. Here are the 5 top minute guys from that series for each team:

Curry / Thompson / Wiggins / Green / Looney - 3 solid 3-point shooters out of their 5 mains
Smart / White / Brown / Tatum / Horford - 5 solid 3-point shooters out of their 5 mains

That's overselling it a bit because Poole (shooter) played a lot for the Warriors and Timelord (non-shooter) played a lot for the Celtics, but quite literally the Celtics were leaning harder on having as many guys who can shoot from range as possible than the Warriors were.

I've noted before that when we project the 2nd 3-peat Bulls into the future, it's not so much that you couldn't expect a Jordan-Pippen led team to compete for the title, but that you'd have to change how the role players played. Some would just be out of a job, but a guy like Rodman is worth noting because he might find a way to be quite valuable today...but he wouldn't be able to focus on offensive rebounding to the exclusion of shooting like he did back then. He'd need to be a threat to shoot from 3.

But when you have a guy who can shoot from range like Curry, you actually can play a 5 whose main offensive job is offensive rebounding like Looney while also having a 4 who doesn't focus on shooting either.

In a bizarre way, the radically different way Curry plays as a star allows his supporting cast to be more like a traditional supporting cast in the middle of things rather than standing on the edge of the court waiting for the ball to be thrown to them.

Lebron won a ring in a team that played howard/mcgee heavy minutes and had below average volume and efficiency 3 point shooting

another one with tristan thompson as a starter who couldnt shoot the ball. And won with outright goat level offense

and another with haslem as a starter in 2012 back when bosh still didnt really take 3's (and also had ultra elite offense)

He doesnt need a 4-out offense and green is so good defensively he would never get benched for not shooting, come on doc

you and me both now that is a common troll argument against lebron ("if lebron played with hakeem they would make him just a corner shooter!" Kind of stuff)

You have even said before that if green was not asked to be a lead decision maker he could become a quality shooter (a reasoning i disagree with but that is whay you have argued) so what would be the issue ?

Re: offensive teammates

Wade was as not ideal of star teammate for lebron as it gets and they still had a elite offense when wade was healthy that matched/beat warriors best offenses outside of 2017

Kyrie is not exactly an all time great offensive player but he had his best impact metrics alongside lebron and got to be the second star in a goat level offense

Davis got to be the main scorer of a championship team with lebron

[Texas Chuck]

Also feels important to realize the goal is never to maximize any one individual player so if Bosh/Love take reduced roles that help the team succeed, that is not a bad thing, but a good one. I'm not interested in getting Wolves era Love production out of Love, I'm interested in winning games, series, and championships and would thus employ Love with that in mind.

I see this argument a lot, and mostly used against Lebron. But I don't care about something that isn't my goal. Fantasy players might be mad I guess if they over-drafted a guy based on his production as the man on a mediocre team. But we saw what happened when you tried to build a team around Bosh or Love as your primary guy--it wasn't good enough.

And yes, for those who believe I'm incapable of nuance....I understand that different stars have different idealized rosters around them. For Dirk I'd want a PNR guard, a rim protecting, rim running center, and 3&D wings. For KG, I'd want the same thing except instead of a PNR guard I'd want a guard who could both create his own offense but also be effective as a spot up shooter.

But I'd still want those 3&D wings. I'd still want that rim protecting center. Same with Lebron, same with Curry, same with Nash, same with Luka.....

[jalengreen]

You can argue players like curry or miller need less spacing than lebron to have their max impact

But alternatively players like curry or miller need quality passers more for their off-ball style to work

key point imo.

it's a trade-off, i think it's reasonable to argue that curry doesn't need as much spacing as much as lebron, but he also requires greater passing from his supporting cast than lebron would. which i think we saw in 2021 when the quality of passing from the supporting cast was not up to par

[falcolombardi]

Also feels important to realize the goal is never to maximize any one individual player so if Bosh/Love take reduced roles that help the team succeed, that is not a bad thing, but a good one. I'm not interested in getting Wolves era Love production out of Love, I'm interested in winning games, series, and championships and would thus employ Love with that in mind.

I see this argument a lot, and mostly used against Lebron. But I don't care about something that isn't my goal. Fantasy players might be mad I guess if they over-drafted a guy based on his production as the man on a mediocre team. But we saw what happened when you tried to build a team around Bosh or Love as your primary guy--it wasn't good enough.

And yes, for those who believe I'm incapable of nuance....I understand that different stars have different idealized rosters around them. For Dirk I'd want a PNR guard, a rim protecting, rim running center, and 3&D wings. For KG, I'd want the same thing except instead of a PNR guard I'd want a guard who could both create his own offense but also be effective as a spot up shooter.

But I'd still want those 3&D wings. I'd still want that rim protecting center. Same with Lebron, same with Curry, same with Nash, same with Luka.....

People are alsp very selective of who they criticize for "limiting their teammates"

Pippen was good enough as he proved in 94 to be the lead offensive player in a 55 win team low end contender. Then he scaled back his prominence when mike came back

Should we criticize jordan for making pippen have a smaller boxscore and offensive prominence that he would have in a second round team rather than a smaller role second option in a dinasty team?

Klay thompson has enough ability he could score 27-28 weak efficiency points a game in a 42 win team build around him as first option. but he is instead having a smaller offensive profile as a sidekick to steph in a championship roster so are we gonna blame curry there too?

And i can go on here. James worthy could have put up monster box score totals in some middling first round team with him as the star but was instead a sidekick to magic

Khris middleton could be the first option in like current knicks and take them to the playoffs scoring 28 a game. Is giannis limiting him?

At the end of the day jordan goal is not to optimize pippen or his own stats. Lebron goal is not to optimize kyrie or love or his own stats. Magic goal is not to optimize worthy ppg or his own stats. Curry goal is not to optimize iguodala boxscore or klay ppg.etc

[PistolPeteJR]

There is so much focus on how LeBron needs good shooters MORE than other players do (eg. Curry, Nash, etc.) but absolutely no mention of how guys like Curry and Nash need good defenders, playmakers, rebounders, to name a few basketball necessities that lead to winning, MORE than LeBron, for example. That is not to say that those two (for example, not picking on them specifically) don't depend on good shooting around them as well to help them be more successful when it comes to WINNING, but perhaps the importance of your supporting cast's shooting specifically helps LeBron more than, say, Curry. What about the rest of the basketball necessities? Do we simply ignore those?

[capfan33]

Both Luka Doncic and James Harden have actually played under this exaggerated caricature that people have made "LeBron ball" for, yet their teams fare significantly better when they're off the court than the Cavs did and often field positive net ratings with their stars on the bench.

LeBron's average times of possession in that 16-21 stretch (minus 2019): 5.3, 6.4, 6.7, 7.4, 6.4
Corresponding net ratings for his teams while he's sat: -4.3, -8.8, -0.5, -0.9, -2.0

Luka (20-22): 8.9, 8.9, 9.3
Off NetRtg: +4.2, +0.3, +3.4

Harden (17-22): 9.3, 8.8, 9.3, 8.6, 8.6, 9.2
Off NetRtg: +3.7, +5.2, +1.1, -3.4, +2.4, +1.2

How is it that LeBron spending ~6 seconds with the ball in his hands causes so much over reliance on him, when Harden and Luka hold the ball 50% more than he does and play under a similar team setup, yet their supporting casts put up winning margins with them off the court?

I also find it pretty funny how LeBron gets criticized for his teams falling apart without him when the very same people using that as a point against him simultaneously consider Luka and Harden's lower on/off, influenced by stronger bench units, to be evidence against their impact.

I've said this a few times already, Luka, Trae, Harden are the logical extreme of heliocentrism that everyone thinks Lebron is. Lebron's actual time of posession really isn't that high considering the caliber of player he is, in fact I believe he's outside the top-10 a lot of years. And yet as you've pointed out, Luka and Harden's teams don't fall apart without them, so something doesn't add up here.

[Doctor MJ]

Lebron won a ring in a team that played howard/mcgee heavy minutes and had below average volume and efficiency 3 point shooting

another one with tristan thompson as a starter who couldnt shoot the ball. And won with outright goat level offense

and another with haslem as a starter in 2012 back when bosh still didnt really take 3's (and also had ultra elite offense)

He doesnt need a 4-out offense and green is so good defensively he would never get benched for not shooting, come on doc

you and me both now that is a common troll argument against lebron ("if lebron played with hakeem they would make him just a corner shooter!" Kind of stuff)

You have even said before that if green was not asked to be a lead decision maker he could become a quality shooter (a reasoning i disagree with but that is whay you have argued) so what would be the issue ?

Re: offensive teammates

Wade was as not ideal of star teammate for lebron as it gets and they still had a elite offense when wade was healthy that matched/beat warriors best offenses outside of 2017

Kyrie is not exactly an all time great offensive player but he had his best impact metrics alongside lebron and got to be the second star in a goat level offense

Davis got to be the main scorer of a championship team with lebron

So first, the 2020 title is really worth analyzing. I'll be the first in line to say "That championship counts!" as I had the Bubble asterisk folks, but we should consider how they did what they did.

You talk about Howard & McGee playing major minutes, but that really depended on the series.

Against Portland, they played a combined 31 MPG...but that was also a series where LeBron & AD each only played about 32. Remember that AD likes to play as little time at center as possible, so in a series where things are not pushed to the limit, they're going to try to get away with as much time with other 5's as possible.

Against Houston, they played a combined 9 MPG. So, out of the rotation.

Against Denver, they played a combined 27 MPG. Here part of the deal was that they were trying to beat up Jokic. They averaged 7.8 fouls per 36 minutes.

Against Miami, Howard played 12 MPG and McGee didn't play.

I would suggest that the best you could say about these guys is that they were useful in the right match up, not that you could get away with playing them big minutes as a part of your core.

Further, when you talk about "not needing 4-out", let's keep in mind that AD was hitting 3's like no other point in his career, so he functioned as a guy who could be a part of that X-out approach.

If you look at the main 5 guys in their series lineups, you'll see that all of them were shooting 3's and - at least at times - hitting them. I'll acknowledge that guys like Rondo & Caruso aren't great shooters, but I'd note that in the one series were both were part of the 5-man core, they shot a combined 13-37, which is pretty damn solid for your #4 & 5 options - to say nothing of the fact that guys 6-8 in their 8 man rotation also shot 3's (Green, Kuzma, Morris).

All this to say, while those Lakers were not a great 3-point shooting team by modern standards, they were still able to regularly surround LeBron with shooters who could space the floor and if they hadn't been able to do that, I don't think they win the title.

I'd note that the next year in the payoffs with what was largely the same core, when LeBron's teammates dropped from a 35.1 3P% to a 27.5%, and they lost in the first round. I don't want to make out like 3-point shooting was all that mattered, but if the LeBron's teammates shoot 27.5% in the 2020 playoffs, I don't think they win the title.

Next you go back to the Cavs and Tristan Thompson. Here I'll just acknowledge: The Cavs were able to get away with having 4 3-point shooters instead of 5. To the extent that I've implied that absolutely everyone of LeBron's core teammates needs to shoot 3's, that's hyperbole, but I'd say that whenever you find any player in the modern league who isn't shooting 3's, you should probably see them as worthy of study in how they're staying on the court, and consider whether their time with such stature is likely to be short-lived.

After Kyrie left Cleveland, Thompson never played starter minutes again on a serious team. His career as a serious player thus ended at age 25, after being seeing as a major prospect out of both high school and college. By all means we can credit LeBron (& Kyrie) for getting by with him, but we're not talking about a rando scrub here. We're talking about a guy seen as having a great deal of talent by traditional basketball scouting standards who needed just the right situation to really get anywhere in the modern NBA.

I'd also note that Thompson was getting by on offense with his offensive rebounding, similar to what Kevon Looney does in GS, and I think the fact that GS can get away with a guy like that along with another guy like that, is telling.

Re: Miami. First let's acknowledge that the brunt of the 3-point shooting revolution really happened after the Heatles era, and that there's no reason to assume that they could win a title today playing as they did in 2012.

Next, let's note who the Heat actually used as their core 5 in the 2012 playoffs:

LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Battier, Chalmers

They were getting by with Wade & Bosh not shooting 3's at that time yes - no chance of that today - but they were playing 3 3-point threats on the court, and more specifically: Since the stars lacked shooting, shooting was prioritized among the role players...which they doubled down on the next year with the acquisition of Ray Allen, who led the team in +/- in the playoffs iirc.

So even back then, Haslem was getting played off the court when it mattered, and things would be far more stark today.

Re: Green so good defensively he'd never get benched. I mean, he got benched for a short stint in a playoff game just this year and said Kerr was right to bench him because he was playing bad. While I wouldn't take as a serious knock on the credit Green deserves for his play out there, I think it's important to understand how much of his value comes from playing on the absolute edge with the green light to improvise, and with a tendency to command and yell at his teammates. I think the reality is at the very least that had Green been drafted on to another team, he might not have been given that kind of rope.

Would I be happy to build a team around prime LeBron & Draymond? No doubt.
Do I think LeBron was ever particularly looking for a teammate who is roughly his own size, also plays point forward, but can't shoot? I don't think so.

Re: "you said if Green wasn't asked to be a playmaker, he could become a quality 3-point shooter". I think I said he may well be able to become a 3-point shooter in such a scenario, and meanwhile in my post I said "if he couldn't do it well enough". Obviously if Green becomes great at shooting 3's, then that concern is moot.

Re: Heat offense matched/beat Warriors. I don't want to get into this debate again. I'll just ask:

Do you think the Heat as they were constructed back then could teleport into today's game and have an elite offense without shooting 3's like today's teams do?

Re: Kyrie. Definitely worth studying his playing relationship to LeBron. I'd note though that he's an excellent shooter and I think that was essential to why it worked as it did.

Re: Davis. I think it's pretty clear that Davis at his best is the perfect teammate for LeBron. He had the D, at his best he had the 3, and he was also an incredible lob finisher - which is a thing I didn't mention before but is also something that LeBron really benefits from his teammates doing.

[tone wone]

The limitations on Wade & Davis' outside shooting is part of what I'm talking about.

Miami was different from the two Cavs stints in no small part because Wade lacked the ability to shoot from outside. This resulted in them pushing Bosh to the 5 so they could get better spacing.

So Wade's lack of shooting forced Bosh to the 5 but also...

Is standing outside the arc the best use of Bosh or Love in all contexts? Absolutely not, but it was what was needed with LeBron.

We're right back to Lebron forces his bigs to be spot up shooters. Which leads us to...

What would Draymond Green do if he were on LeBron's team? Stand outside the arc and shoot 3's, and if he couldn't do it well enough, you'd bench him.

Yep. For example it was benching Tristan Thompson in the Finals that got Cleveland over the hump. Oh wait, that was Golden State benching their non-shooting center Bogut in 2015. Do I need to pull up those Anderson Varejão on-off numbers from back in the day? This is just another attempt by Team Gravity to bend reality. Yeah, Green would be bench playing next to Lebron because no defensive 1st-non shooting big man has ever played a large role on any of his teams

[falcolombardi]

The limitations on Wade & Davis' outside shooting is part of what I'm talking about.

Miami was different from the two Cavs stints in no small part because Wade lacked the ability to shoot from outside. This resulted in them pushing Bosh to the 5 so they could get better spacing.

So Wade's lack of shooting forced Bosh to the 5 but also...

Is standing outside the arc the best use of Bosh or Love in all contexts? Absolutely not, but it was what was needed with LeBron.

We're right back to Lebron forces his bigs to be spot up shooters. Which leads us to...

What would Draymond Green do if he were on LeBron's team? Stand outside the arc and shoot 3's, and if he couldn't do it well enough, you'd bench him.

Yep. For example it was benching Tristan Thompson in the Finals that got Cleveland over the hump. Oh wait, that was Golden State benching their non-shooting center Bogut in 2015. Do I need to pull up those Anderson Varejão on-off numbers from back in the day? This is just another attempt by Team Gravity to bend reality. Yeah, Green would be bench playing next to Lebron because no defensive 1st-non shooting big man has ever played a large role on any of his teams

Dont forget warriors loss in 2016 is still blamed to this day by a lot of people on, you guessed, harrison bad jumpshooting leading to warriors not having enough spacing

And their struggles in 2021 were blamed on, you guessed it, their roster not having enough passers to make the system work around curry. Which for some reason is totally different to lebron "needing" shooters to make "lebron ball" work

At the end of the day every player benefits more from good rosters that provide help with scoring, passing, spacing, etc.

The ideal fit for each player varies but nobody is perfectly portable to have 100% of their possible impact in every situation with any kind of talent

[Onus]

literally every star benefits offensively from having more shooting around him. This is not unique in any way to Lebron. Even Steph, the GOAT shooter benefits from more shooters around him. Nash benefited from shooting around him. Jokic, Giannis, Luka, you name the great offensive player--shooting really helps.

Everyone benefits from more shooters.

You look at the top offenses in history and they'll usually employ 4 to 5 above avg shooters on the floor for the majority of the time. Except the warriors and steph who start and play multiple non shooters. But yea he would benefit from having more shooters as well.

But that's not the point. The point is that the moden dynastic teams employed a base offense that involved everyone. Bulls, Lakers used the triangle. Spurs and Warriors used some sort of motion offense. When things got bogged down then they went to isolations and pick and rolls. They didn't just run straight isolations and pick and rolls the whole game.

[Doctor MJ]

The limitations on Wade & Davis' outside shooting is part of what I'm talking about.

Miami was different from the two Cavs stints in no small part because Wade lacked the ability to shoot from outside. This resulted in them pushing Bosh to the 5 so they could get better spacing.

So Wade's lack of shooting forced Bosh to the 5 but also...

Is standing outside the arc the best use of Bosh or Love in all contexts? Absolutely not, but it was what was needed with LeBron.

We're right back to Lebron forces his bigs to be spot up shooters. Which leads us to...

What would Draymond Green do if he were on LeBron's team? Stand outside the arc and shoot 3's, and if he couldn't do it well enough, you'd bench him.

Yep. For example it was benching Tristan Thompson in the Finals that got Cleveland over the hump. Oh wait, that was Golden State benching their non-shooting center Bogut in 2015. Do I need to pull up those Anderson Varejão on-off numbers from back in the day? This is just another attempt by Team Gravity to bend reality. Yeah, Green would be bench playing next to Lebron because no defensive 1st-non shooting big man has ever played a large role on any of his teams

So, I'm already going back and forth with people on similar points and I don't want repeat myself, but I would ask you this:

As we realize that shooting more 3's is better, do you think this has no effect of the value of players who cannot shoot 3's?

If your answer is "No", I think you're being stubborn.

If your answer is "Yes but your overstating it", cool, how would you try to put into words the proper effect its having on players?