NBA players are better than ever, despite what the legends say

[prophet_of_rage]

Sure. Everyone looks good when they are allowed to travel and carry.

Yes...call that (and get rid of the step back three...because the two steps allowed were originally meant for forward momentum) and you have a better game IMO.

The step back two was always allowed. Why should the step back three be gone? Double stepback sure but the stepback has long been a part of the rules.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[lambchop]

The NBA game wasn’t as violent as they claim it was. There were lots of ticky-tack fouls called, and hand-checking was never a serious defensive tactic.

Watch full NBA games from that era. The game tape doesn’t lie.

Hand-checking was absolutely a thing. It killed offenses. The game was a lot more physical in the past, especially in the playoffs. Either you weren't around or you are misremembering? I'm not trying to validate hyperbolic statements. It's just a fact. Some of those 90s playoff series were brutal to watch.

Try handchecking a wing player today and you’re only asking to get blown by. We’re talking about modern athletes here. Not guys at the YMCA

Did handchecking help in certain possessions? Sure. But it’s not the dealbreaker these older heads claim it was. And there were rule changes (like the abolishing of Illegal Defence in 2001) that were far more consequential in aiding the defences

Sorry but the handchecking thing is simply not true. Putting your hand or forearm on someone will absolutely limit his athletic output, unless you're assuming that the defender is very weak compared to the ball handler.

On these plays Beverley is already playing super tight defense. Why are you assuming if he were allowed to use his hands to push the ball handler around, he would now suddenly be at a disadvantage and have players blow by him?

Watch on YouTube

Same on this Kobe play. If Kobe handchecks Wade, how would that make it easier for Wade to blow by him?

Watch on YouTube

It absolutely makes it easier to defend. Just try yourself next you play against whoever the highest level player is you can play against. If the YMCA doesnt count, just do it against some NCAA player or european or nba player whatever player you come across and you'll see how much it helps.

[Dan Z]

Sure. Everyone looks good when they are allowed to travel and carry.

Yes...call that (and get rid of the step back three...because the two steps allowed were originally meant for forward momentum) and you have a better game IMO.

The step back two was always allowed. Why should the step back three be gone? Double stepback sure but the stepback has long been a part of the rules.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

I might be mislabeling it and it's the double stepback that I'm talking about.

I don't think players should be able to move their feet backwards without dribbling and I think the original intent of two steps being allowed is for forward momentum (because nobody can do a layup while dribbling 100% of the time).

[Phreak50]

What a crock of crap OP.

This is just something young fans tell themselves to convince each other they are watching a quality era.

And the only way Adam Silver can assist in convincing you is by making the era nothing more than a scrimmage league for any decent player to put up insane looking stats.

The game is currently a joke.

There are less than 5 current players that would be great in the late 80s and early 90s.

[cam24thomas]

This NBA season has the deepest level of talent we’ve ever seen. We have players from Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Steph, Ja, Kyrie, and many other talents. Even the role players are incredibly versatile and skilled.

Yet every single day, I see constant comments from older heads like Charles Oakley saying that Giannis wouldn’t make an NBA roster in the 1990s. Or that Steph would get bullied by the likes of Isiah Thomas

I’m all for respecting the NBA older-heads, but no other sport does this. NFL and soccer fans aren’t constantly listening to legends denigrating the current game. They barely even do analysis anymore.

I see guys like SHAQ who didn’t even know who Rui Hachimura was, despite his literal job being paid to talk about basketball. Yet this same guy will denigrate the current talent and say they’re “soft.”

It’s honestly killing the product. Fans believe what these legends say, and their nostalgia leads them to believe that NBA superstars today would struggle in the 1990s. That’s false. The opposite is true. Yet I’m seeing 21 year olds who falsely believe that they missed out on the golden era of basketball.

Again, no other sport does this. Basketball is beset by this cancer of nostalgia bias and Jordan worship, and it needs to stop if this sport is to thrive.

But Shaq would annihilate everybody today, and would force every team to get REAL centers, not Embiid whom falls over all the time...
And MJ would have it easy because of the "defensive 3 second violation" (which began in 2001-02) leaving the paint open instead of the 80s or 90s when MJ had to dunk on 7-footers.

[C3H6N6O6]

Sure. Everyone looks good when they are allowed to travel and carry.

Sure, everyone looks good when you’re forced to defend your man 1-on-1.

The Illegal Defence rules in the 1990s favoured star players, allowing them to score more. You had to guard your man, and it was difficult for help defence to rotate. Today, you can trap and do hybrid zones on your star player, forcing the ball out of their hands.

Sooo you actually haven't watched any games. That's what this tells me despite your claims to the contrary. In the Finals no less the Suns doubled Jordan quite a lot in 1993, on the touch at times. It didn't matter.

Roaming defense wasn't allowed in 1993. It was either 1-on-1 or double team.
Guys like Lebron and Luka would absolutely kill the opposition if roaming defense is abolished right now.

[C3H6N6O6]

I don't know about anything else but way more people are trying to play Basketball seriously now across the world.
For that reason alone NBA has much better talent now compared to previous eras.

I am sure great players from past would be able to adapt their game well if they played now but the bench guys would have a serious problems and a good percentage of them wouldn't be able to make the league now.

[BernteB]

so i am wondering, how a player at age 38 and clearly on the other side of his athletic peak, puts up numbers that outshine his stats from when he was in his physical prime 10 years ago, when the nba today is so good and full of excpetional players.

[C3H6N6O6]

so i am wondering, how a player at age 38 and clearly on the other side of his athletic peak, puts up numbers that outshine his stats from when he was in his physical prime 10 years ago, when the nba today is so good and full of excpetional players.

Because he isn't in the running for DPoY now?
38 yr old LeBron would score 28ppg in 2013 instead of 30 like he is doing right now but that is because of pace.
38 yr old LeBron would score 30 ppg in the 80s because pace was the same. He would also have more impact in the 80s because roaming defense was illegal. He also would look much better on defense because he wouldn't have to move so much.

[Bergmaniac]

It's obviously true and it takes a really heavy dose of nostalgia to deny this fact.

I really recommend to everyone who is saying how tough the defences were in the 80s to go back and actually watch some full games from that era and not to rely to memories from 305 years ago. Even in Finals game the defence was miles away from current standards. Everyone but a few particularly noted sharpshooters was allowed open looks from 20 fett out. Transition defense was absolutely awful by modern standards (probably the main reason why scoring efficiency was almost as high as today despite teams shooting many times fewer threes and usually at a bad percentage). And no, players didn't get clobbered on every other drive to the basket, hard fouls were quite rare back then.

The mid and late 90s and early 2000s was a heavily defensive era but very much an outlier historically. And the slow pace and focus on size allowed a lot of players with very limited skills by NBA standards to have decent careers.

[dhsilv2]

Perhaps if these guys played more instead of load managed themselves into oblivion and treated the regular season like preseason nobody would take the older guys seriously.

Players have to cover more ground in half-court sets, especially when it comes to closing out on shooters. Back in the 1990s, you’d have the star player going iso while 8 guys would stand there and watch. Now you have constant movement, leading to more fatigue.

But that’s besides the point. The older-heads are wrong. Giannis would not be a bench player in the 1990s. Scottie Pippen could not shut down Kevin Durant. They’re lying to us. These new ballers are better than ever

I mean, use whatever excuses you want, but that's the point the older guys have and it works for them. Back in the day, if you watched a game between two potential MVP candidates, there's a 99% chance they'd actually play against each other. Now it's a coin flip chance at best.

Do I think Giannis would be a bench player in the 90s? No. but if the root of this is the old guys are saying the younger generation is soft, well, the older guys played a lot and didn't rest that much. The younger guys don't play as much. If these guys are really the super athletes that I've heard they are, fatigue shouldn't be much of an issue. Their superior athleticism should make up for it.

That's not how the human body works. The more explosive and dynamic you are and the more you have to use that ability, the more stress you are going to put on joints and ligaments.

[dhsilv2]

I can easily show you a compilation of hard fouls over the last 5 years. That’s not what we use to judge eras

I know you like to watch tape of the same 5 hard fouls committed by Bill Laimbeer and Dennis Rodman, but that’s not what we use to judge eras.

And I’ve watched FULL playoff series. As well as regular season games. The physicality you speak of is completely overrated.

I remember back in 2000, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar would claim that the current NBA players were too rough and brutish, while his era had more “finesse and skill.” He said this as an underhanded shot against Shaq, who was MVP at the time.

So they change their argument whenever it suits them.

Wow!! Whole playoff series? Tell me more ye wise sage and graduate of YouTube University. You're basically mansplaining - I've watched NBA basketball from the 80's through to today.

Not to diminish your contributions but your post and subsequent posts in this thread are basically code for "how to say you're young and haven't seen much ball from the era you're ripping without saying it".

Yes, entire playoff series. I’ve watched every NBA Finals game Jordan played in, as well as multiple Conference Finals series, first round series, regular season games. I watched every Bird-Magic Finals matchup, as well as playoff series involving Hakeem, Drexler, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, etc.

And stop with this “young kid” nonsense. I’m a grown man in my 30’s with a wife and kid. I’m not some 12 year old who just started watching

Your memories of what you’ve seen 30 years ago doesn’t compare to someone actually watching it today.

It's shocking how many people trust their 30 year old memories of a game they were likely watching with a beer in hand. Fully knowing they couldn't tell you their last 15 meals. But we should trust their insanely old memories.

[dhsilv2]

Certainly, but that doesn't also mean that the rules as well as the playstyle aren't more favorable to offenses than in the past. Even little clean ups like clear path fouls, those kinds of things are going to increase offense more than people think.

Fair enough. But that also goes in the other direction. The elimination of the Illegal Defence rules has made it easier for defences to run more sophisticated defensive schemes.

I see older-heads claim that Jordan could average 45 points today. That’s patently false. If he couldn’t do 45 in his era, there’s no way he could do it in a more talented league

Luka has multiple 40 and 50 point games this season only, i dont think Jordan averages 45 a game but close to 40, yea. By the way did you grow up watching the nba in the 90s? Or you going off youtube videos? Im curious

Shouldn't the question be.

Did you grow up watching basketball in the 90's AND have you watched youtube and you're of course basing it on youtube. Or did you grow up watching in the 90's but didn't watch youtube so your opinion is worthless.

[indiegrind]

I agree with the OP, the talent level is unreal today. The athleticism, the shooting, the versatility, the creativity. This league is full of current and future all time greats.

[Greatness]

According to RealGM basketball somehow devolves over time. It's laughable really

[og15]

This NBA season has the deepest level of talent we’ve ever seen. We have players from Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Steph, Ja, Kyrie, and many other talents. Even the role players are incredibly versatile and skilled.

Yet every single day, I see constant comments from older heads like Charles Oakley saying that Giannis wouldn’t make an NBA roster in the 1990s. Or that Steph would get bullied by the likes of Isiah Thomas

I’m all for respecting the NBA older-heads, but no other sport does this. NFL and soccer fans aren’t constantly listening to legends denigrating the current game. They barely even do analysis anymore.

I see guys like SHAQ who didn’t even know who Rui Hachimura was, despite his literal job being paid to talk about basketball. Yet this same guy will denigrate the current talent and say they’re “soft.”

It’s honestly killing the product. Fans believe what these legends say, and their nostalgia leads them to believe that NBA superstars today would struggle in the 1990s. That’s false. The opposite is true. Yet I’m seeing 21 year olds who falsely believe that they missed out on the golden era of basketball.

Again, no other sport does this. Basketball is beset by this cancer of nostalgia bias and Jordan worship, and it needs to stop if this sport is to thrive.

But Shaq would annihilate everybody today, and would force every team to get REAL centers, not Embiid whom falls over all the time...
And MJ would have it easy because of the "defensive 3 second violation" (which began in 2001-02) leaving the paint open instead of the 80s or 90s when MJ had to dunk on 7-footers.

If the refs are calling offensive fouls, then this would be effective defense regardless of the esthetic of it

3 second violation while allowing zone defense vs illegal defense have their different advantages and disadvantages. Illegal defense abuse definitely led to much uglier basketball.

[dhsilv2]

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. 1980s NBA players were weaker and less talented than the current NBA players.

Players lighting up the scoreboard does not correlate to the defences today being worse than in the 1980s. It could simply be that players are far more offensively skilled, leading to them going off for 40 points. Back then, you’d struggle to find even 1 player who shot more than 90% from the free throw line. Today we have over a dozen players who consistently shoot over 90% on their free throws. And this is a free throw, where defence is completely irrelevant. These new guys are really really talented

The eye test doesn’t lie.

The 2017 Warriors would have run the 1996 Bulls out of the gym. Multiple three-point threats on the floor at the same time, and they’d make mincemeat of those Bulls. The Bulls didn’t have the offensive firepower to keep up with three 30 ppg scorers on the court at the same time, as well as an elite defence and a decent amount of role players.

1980s player were weaker and less talented than current players and i know this cause i watched youtube videos of games - lol ok man. I like how you know this but you only know this from watching tapes/videos of games. What is your point anyway? Luka is leading the nba in scoring and dude is not even in shape lol

When reading basketball reference about 90s Bulls did you read that they were the #1 defense in the nba? Harper, Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman were as good as any defensive foursome the nba has ever seen. Bulls push them to at least 7 if they dont win the series.

….well, yeah. Obviously. I use game tape. And sometimes I rewind and watch it again. I’m not in the arena watching the game in real time. What argument are you even trying to make here?

And listen to that video of David West talking. Anthony Mason weighed 245, and he was a powerful and strong guy. Today’s players on average are larger, faster and are far more athletic. Jordan didn’t even start serious weight-training until he was in his mid 20’s. Power forwards regularly weighed like 210 pounds back then.

And yes, the Bulls were the #1 defence in the NBA back then. That’s because they were the best among their peers. Stop using their performance against their peers as an argument for how they’d fare against the Warriors

I'd be careful taking too much of what West said seriously. He's directionally right, but Rodman might have been 210 as a rookie. When he was guarding shaq in the post he was easily 240+. West took some serious liberties with his weights.

[dhsilv2]

1980s player were weaker and less talented than current players and i know this cause i watched youtube videos of games - lol ok man. I like how you know this but you only know this from watching tapes/videos of games. What is your point anyway? Luka is leading the nba in scoring and dude is not even in shape lol

When reading basketball reference about 90s Bulls did you read that they were the #1 defense in the nba? Harper, Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman were as good as any defensive foursome the nba has ever seen. Bulls push them to at least 7 if they dont win the series.

….well, yeah. Obviously. I use game tape. And sometimes I rewind and watch it again. I’m not in the arena watching the game in real time. What argument are you even trying to make here?

And listen to that video of David West talking. Anthony Mason weighed 245, and he was a powerful and strong guy. Today’s players on average are larger, faster and are far more athletic. Jordan didn’t even start serious weight-training until he was in his mid 20’s. Power forwards regularly weighed like 210 pounds back then.

And yes, the Bulls were the #1 defence in the NBA back then. That’s because they were the best among their peers. Stop using their performance against their peers as an argument for how they’d fare against the Warriors

How athletic is the nba’s leading scorer Luka? He admits he is slow. The Mavs starting center is Wood who weighs 215. How much does GS starting center Looney weigh?
220? How strong is Porzingis? There is no point in arguing with you about this anymore. Todays players are awesome and 80s players were slow and unathletic blah blah blah

Go watch some more videos

Kills me how player weights seem to get locked in on sites from their combine numbers. Looney is 6'8 barefoot with a 9'2 standing reach and a 7'3.5 wingspan. And he's weighting in somewhere around 240-250 right now.

[Fencer reregistered]

I think more players today are better shooters than they were in the 80s and 90s. After that Im not sure I see a big skill difference. Guys flat out palming the ball now, traveling and so on. Im not sure handling is all that much more advanced now. And yes I know palming the ball has always been a thing, but it has gotten to pretty dumb levels over the last 3-5 years. I dont think foot work in the mid range or post has gotten better. I dont think individual defense has gotten better either.

I dont know, I feel like the way the game is called and the style of play teams go with now. I think the "modern era" is over, we are now in a new era of the sport. I think the modern era was early 80s to probably around 2014-2015. The game is just different now.

I was actually just rewatching some of the Lakers vs Celtics finals from 2010 last week. I mean we are talking a game from 2010, not 1970 and the game was a completely different game. The way it was called and the way it was played. Its pointless to try and compare anything from today to just 12 years ago. In a 7 game series, LA and BOS both broke the 100 point mark just 1 time.

And to be clear, this isnt me saying the players from before were better. Im just saying we are just in a different era of basketball now. Its pointless to compare because we're talking 2 different sports.

Vs. the old days (and the definition of "old days" may vary from point to point below):
-- Outside shooters are better, period. The stepbacks and sidesteps and so on show a level of skill that wasn't previously developed. Reggie Miller was Duncan Robinson with more athleticism and very much without the yips.
-- Shooting off dribbles of all kinds (layups, floaters, pull-ups, etc.) is better. Isiah Thomas' scoop shots were a lot more impressive then than they are now.
-- Post scoring is much diminished.
-- Interior passing is less challenging than it used to be, because the paint is less crowded. It's fair to say that it has diminished.
-- Alley-oops have more or less replaced post entry passes. Wash.
-- Kickout and skip passing are better.
-- The mental part of defense is much more demanding than it used to be. Partial exception: Mano-a-mano mind games, in the post or in 90s isos.
-- Strength is less significant. With the radical changes in weight training, however, guys are probably as strong or stronger even so. Other kinds of athleticism are, on average, much increased.

[dhsilv2]

Uh, the league allowed a lot of Bs that uglied and muddied the game up in the 90's and it should have never been able to get to that point. Being more defenisvely skilled or sound might not be the reason the 90's defenses were harder to score against, but convincing yourself it's harder to score against defenses now while everyone goes for 40 a night is the most brain dead take ever. It's way easier to score right now, even if you're a mediocre or worse athlete. But it's much closer to how the game should be played than the 90's. I don't want the games back where dudes had a job just to grab, hold, and make it dirty and physical.

It's certainly easier to score today, but as others have noted. A lot of this is the direct result of better and more talented offensive players. In the 90's most rosters had guys who simply had zero offensive skill or even any real use on that side of the court. This shrinks the court and makes defense simply far easier to play, and makes scoring as a star player harder.

Certainly rules have helped with the exception of legalizing zone, nearly all the rule changes were to open the game up. But I'm not sure they've helped more than having 4-5 shooters on the floor vs having sometimes none in the 90's.