The Amazingly Suck Winger/Dawkins thread

[TheBlackCzar]

Bumping the only Winger-related thread I could easily find.



If Silver ends up punishing the Clippers for evading the salary cap, is there a chance that Winger also receives some sort of punishment as well?

I'll start off with saying I don't have a well-versed understanding of how the NBA disciplinary mechanisms work (Does anyone really? They likely dropped the ball with Rozier as a recent example), but from a layman's point of view, if Winger knew of the alleged circumvention, even if he wasn't completely onboard with them, I don't know how he wouldn't be included in punishments. He knew, didn't report, and it happened. Again, if true.

To me, if you are a GM of an NBA franchise, you are obligated to follow the word of the contractual framework you and every other GM in the league are bound to, which is the CBA. He was Lawrence Franks' number 2 and according to reporting said "How many f*cking side deals do we have with Leonard?", which implies that he knew something was going on. To further this, he was apparently apart of the push to get Leonard in the first place (he had already been GM of Clippers 2 years before Leonard arrived) and stayed on for approximately 4 years after their successful recruitment of Leonard. Whether he's not part of the franchise now, is immaterial, he was part of said franchise when alleged violations of the CBA occurred for many years, the tampering aspect of things allegedly started in Wingers first year with LAC for what it's worth. If some want to imply this somehow flew past Winger in his whole time there, and that he was oblivious of what was happening I have a set of steak knives to sell that can cut through titanium...

Now will the NBA see it this way? I dunno. Maybe they look to mitigate the blowback of this whole fiasco, if true, and really just throw the book at Balmer, Franks, and Leonard & Co., but unless Winger is a cooperator at this point (which is a possibility), why would he get off with no punishment? If again he had knowledge of transgressions, and did nothing about it coming from an extremely powerful position within the franchise, he's essentially at best complicit in the scheme.

Aside from whatever happens from a disciplinary point of view, it doesn't even touch on the professional and competency implications this brings to Winger's doorstep.

In the end the worst thing we probably have to be worried about is that Winger may get fined significantly...
None of the other penalties would have anything to do with us........
They should get this over with, make their findings and move on....
Dragging this out is unnecessary.....
If Winger is guilty I'm sure $5-$10million penalty would be justified and painful for his pockets...
Essentially 1yr of salary as he makes about $9mil now..........

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Bumping the only Winger-related thread I could easily find.



If Silver ends up punishing the Clippers for evading the salary cap, is there a chance that Winger also receives some sort of punishment as well?

I'll start off with saying I don't have a well-versed understanding of how the NBA disciplinary mechanisms work (Does anyone really? They likely dropped the ball with Rozier as a recent example), but from a layman's point of view, if Winger knew of the alleged circumvention, even if he wasn't completely onboard with them, I don't know how he wouldn't be included in punishments. He knew, didn't report, and it happened. Again, if true.

To me, if you are a GM of an NBA franchise, you are obligated to follow the word of the contractual framework you and every other GM in the league are bound to, which is the CBA. He was Lawrence Franks' number 2 and according to reporting said "How many f*cking side deals do we have with Leonard?", which implies that he knew something was going on. To further this, he was apparently apart of the push to get Leonard in the first place (he had already been GM of Clippers 2 years before Leonard arrived) and stayed on for approximately 4 years after their successful recruitment of Leonard. Whether he's not part of the franchise now, is immaterial, he was part of said franchise when alleged violations of the CBA occurred for many years, the tampering aspect of things allegedly started in Wingers first year with LAC for what it's worth. If some want to imply this somehow flew past Winger in his whole time there, and that he was oblivious of what was happening I have a set of steak knives to sell that can cut through titanium...

Now will the NBA see it this way? I dunno. Maybe they look to mitigate the blowback of this whole fiasco, if true, and really just throw the book at Balmer, Franks, and Leonard & Co., but unless Winger is a cooperator at this point (which is a possibility), why would he get off with no punishment? If again he had knowledge of transgressions, and did nothing about it coming from an extremely powerful position within the franchise, he's essentially at best complicit in the scheme.

Aside from whatever happens from a disciplinary point of view, it doesn't even touch on the professional and competency implications this brings to Winger's doorstep.

In the end the worst thing we probably have to be worried about is that Winger may get fined significantly...
None of the other penalties would have anything to do with us........
They should get this over with, make their findings and move on....
Dragging this out is unnecessary.....
If Winger is guilty I'm sure $5-$10million penalty would be justified and painful for his pockets...
Essentially 1yr of salary as he makes about $9mil now..........

It could also be seen as a stain on the Wizards having someone leading up their bball operations that was in on the scheme. Will other front offices want to so readily work with the franchise? I think this goes beyond just a punishment for Winger. Do you want a guy leading the show that, if allegations are true, was part of a scheme to circumvent the CBA who is by training a lawyer? From a PR point of view, this makes the Wizards look even more Mickey Mouse, that during the franchises first reset in decades, we bring in a guy who honestly other than coming from a franchise with deep pockets, never really did anything in this league besides ride coattails.

Anyone can do some quick homework and tell you that Winger's NBA resume is inflated by circumstance. Became a front office member when Cleveland already had Lebron, pivoted to OKC when they had already had Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and Ibaka on the team, then went to LAC and sold the SGA and the farm for Paul George, and oh, landed Leonard. Then Teddy, Balmer wannabe, got sold Winger because this franchise holds about as much weight as Calista Flockhart.

[Despy]

LOL Nobody is going to blame winger if ballmer told him to do it. (which he probably did). Nobody is going to investigate too deep anyway, Balmer could buy 5 nbas imagine the out of lawyers he could throw at silver

[doclinkin]

LOL Nobody is going to blame winger if ballmer told him to do it. (which he probably did). Nobody is going to investigate too deep anyway, Balmer could buy 5 nbas imagine the out of lawyers he could throw at silver

Ignore CntCrazy. He’s throwing smoke screens to cover the fact that his boycrush went 0-fer in the All star game. Gotta find another reason to hate, so this is all he’s got. It’s pathological.

[Despy]

LOL Nobody is going to blame winger if ballmer told him to do it. (which he probably did). Nobody is going to investigate too deep anyway, Balmer could buy 5 nbas imagine the out of lawyers he could throw at silver

Ignore CntCrazy. He’s throwing smoke screens to cover the fact that his boycrush went 0-fer in the All star game. Gotta find another reason to hate, so this is all he’s got. It’s pathological.

Gotta give him an olympic gold for reaching. How can I make Kwahi Leonard/Steve Ballmers problem look bad for the wizards? IM SURE THIS SCANDAL IS ALL MICHEAL WINGER AND NOT THE 13th RICHEST MAN ON EARTHS FAULT. Nah he shoulda resigned and went crying to silver ROFL. Im sure other organizations love snitches.

[doclinkin]

Especially given the first offer he got he left a winning franchise with a new building and an unlimited budget to take the same position on a perpetually losing franchise. The “how many” part of the question suggests he was somehow out of the loop, undermined in his position, and the rest shows he was fed up with it. So he took a deal as far away as he could and let it be someone else’s headache. By all indications he’s been open and transparent with this franchise. According to players who’ve been traded, which says more than anyone in the building. Usually when players get shipped is when you hear them trash the organization.

[closg00]

Take a around.

Watch on YouTube

[9 and 20]

Winger and Dawkins have been great. Convinced Terd to finally do the rebuild and picked mostly good players through the rebuild. They've got guys positioning themselves to try to end up on the Wiz.

Maybe the greatest thing so far - they swung a pair of trades that we used to only see teams like the Lakers pull off. NBA chattering class asking themselves how the Wiz got these guys without trading much for them.

I'm impressed. Also impressed by the Silky Johnson level hate on these dudes, which mostly I agree comes from the Deni trade.

[Northwest Roddy]

Wow! Speaks for itself. (apologies for the crap editing. #neweracoming

23 26
Brad Beal Bilal Coulibaly
Kyle Kuzma Bub Carrington
Deni Advija Alex Sarr
Kristaps Porzingis Kyshawn George
Daniel Gafford Trae Young
Corey Kispert Anthony Davis
Delon Wright Tre Johnson
Johnny Davis Will Riley
Taj Gibson Justin Champegnie
Will Barton Jamir Watkins
Anthony Gil Anthony Gill
Monte Morris Tristan Vukcivic
Delon Wright Sharife Cooper
Kendrick Nunn Jaden Hardy
Xavier Cooks Cam Whitmore
Isiah Todd D'Angelo Russel

[doclinkin]

Beal-> Poole -> CJ + Kispert ->Trae Young + PHX 2030 pick, 2nds, possible PHX swaps

Porzingis —> Gallo, Muscala -> Bagley(+Johnny Davis) -> Smart -> Cam Whitmore + Will Riley + Jamir Watkins

Gafford+ 2nds—> Kyshawn

Deni -> Bub Carrington, 2028 1st, and two 2nds that when traded with Jared Butler became the #30 pick ->Anthony Davis

Kuzma -> Middleton,AJJ, + #21-30 GSW pick (from Poole) -> Anthony Davis
….

Maybe the Deni trade stings less if you realize it’s basically:

Deni + Kuzma
for
Anthony Davis + Bub Carrington + 2028 first + 2029 first.

[9 and 20]

I thought about Young and Davis trades a bit more and that the Wizards did this instead of the Lakers. Can you imagine if the Lakers traded and expiring contract and Dalton Knecht for Trae Young? Or an expiring contract and (basically) 5 second round picks for Anthony Davis? Stephen A Smith would be losing his damn mind and RealGM would be melting down.

[9 and 20]

Beal-> Poole -> CJ + Kispert ->Trae Young + PHX 2030 pick, 2nds, possible PHX swaps

Porzingis —> Gallo, Muscala -> Bagley(+Johnny Davis) -> Smart -> Cam Whitmore + Will Riley + Jamir Watkins

Gafford+ 2nds—> Kyshawn

Deni -> Bub Carrington, 2028 1st, and two 2nds that when traded with Jared Butler became the #30 pick ->Anthony Davis

Kuzma -> Middleton,AJJ, + #21-30 GSW pick (from Poole) -> Anthony Davis
….

Maybe the Deni trade stings less if you realize it’s basically:

Deni + Kuzma
for
Anthony Davis + Bub Carrington + 2028 first + 2029 first.

I think the thing that will make the Deni trade sting less is winning. Watching the Blazers get stuck on the treadmill and us building a solid young core with good vets now in Young and AD has taken me most of the way towards getting over it - this basically validates what Winger and Dawkins were saying at the time of the trade. Watching us become a legitimate good team (and passing the Blazers in the process) will take me the rest of the way.

[doclinkin]

Right. Same thing. What the supporters of the trade have been saying: wait and see.

But the point is the crowd that’s freaking out about the Deni trade says we did not get enough for him. Yet when you parse out what we did with those assets in total you get a better picture.

I believe this uses up all the assets we got from the Deni+Kuzma+Jared Butler trades. With a total return of Anthony Davis. Bub. And first round picks in 28, 29.

That’s not a ham sandwich.

If on the day of the trade you told anyone you’d ship out those two for AD and three firsts you’d get mocked mercilessly and summarily dismissed. Yet that’s what this FO did.

Let’s see if AD has anything in the tank. Other than being the tank himself this year.

Which is the 2nd half of the trade. To *plausibly* lose. Because the last part of the equation is the argument that we could easily lose even with Deni becoming an all star. Despite young talent swiftly developing as well. We could play hijinks and shenanigans and somehow never lose our encumbered pick. To which Adam Silver is saying: hold my beer.

So it amounts to all that plus a top 8 pick in a deep draft. And the national narrative that DC did a rebuild the right way. Tanking honorably. By developing youth and helping injured stars rehabilitate their careers.

[doclinkin]

If AD proves healthy enough to play we will be a fun team to watch. Defensive stops initiate fast breaks to unleash a young uptempo running team for easy buckets at the opposite end.

—-the rest moved to the AD thread

[TheBlackCzar]

I'll start off with saying I don't have a well-versed understanding of how the NBA disciplinary mechanisms work (Does anyone really? They likely dropped the ball with Rozier as a recent example), but from a layman's point of view, if Winger knew of the alleged circumvention, even if he wasn't completely onboard with them, I don't know how he wouldn't be included in punishments. He knew, didn't report, and it happened. Again, if true.

To me, if you are a GM of an NBA franchise, you are obligated to follow the word of the contractual framework you and every other GM in the league are bound to, which is the CBA. He was Lawrence Franks' number 2 and according to reporting said "How many f*cking side deals do we have with Leonard?", which implies that he knew something was going on. To further this, he was apparently apart of the push to get Leonard in the first place (he had already been GM of Clippers 2 years before Leonard arrived) and stayed on for approximately 4 years after their successful recruitment of Leonard. Whether he's not part of the franchise now, is immaterial, he was part of said franchise when alleged violations of the CBA occurred for many years, the tampering aspect of things allegedly started in Wingers first year with LAC for what it's worth. If some want to imply this somehow flew past Winger in his whole time there, and that he was oblivious of what was happening I have a set of steak knives to sell that can cut through titanium...

Now will the NBA see it this way? I dunno. Maybe they look to mitigate the blowback of this whole fiasco, if true, and really just throw the book at Balmer, Franks, and Leonard & Co., but unless Winger is a cooperator at this point (which is a possibility), why would he get off with no punishment? If again he had knowledge of transgressions, and did nothing about it coming from an extremely powerful position within the franchise, he's essentially at best complicit in the scheme.

Aside from whatever happens from a disciplinary point of view, it doesn't even touch on the professional and competency implications this brings to Winger's doorstep.

In the end the worst thing we probably have to be worried about is that Winger may get fined significantly...
None of the other penalties would have anything to do with us........
They should get this over with, make their findings and move on....
Dragging this out is unnecessary.....
If Winger is guilty I'm sure $5-$10million penalty would be justified and painful for his pockets...
Essentially 1yr of salary as he makes about $9mil now..........

It could also be seen as a stain on the Wizards having someone leading up their bball operations that was in on the scheme. Will other front offices want to so readily work with the franchise? I think this goes beyond just a punishment for Winger. Do you want a guy leading the show that, if allegations are true, was part of a scheme to circumvent the CBA who is by training a lawyer? From a PR point of view, this makes the Wizards look even more Mickey Mouse, that during the franchises first reset in decades, we bring in a guy who honestly other than coming from a franchise with deep pockets, never really did anything in this league besides ride coattails.

Anyone can do some quick homework and tell you that Winger's NBA resume is inflated by circumstance. Became a front office member when Cleveland already had Lebron, pivoted to OKC when they had already had Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and Ibaka on the team, then went to LAC and sold the SGA and the farm for Paul George, and oh, landed Leonard. Then Teddy, Balmer wannabe, got sold Winger because this franchise holds about as much weight as Calista Flockhart.

You made a long list of unfounded accusations....
1st Lawrence Frank was running the LAC....
This doesn't fit the plot you just wrote, so you ommitted it....

So all these franchises just let Winger leech off of them with no value???
So in your world multibillion dollar organizations, are all blinded by the persuasiveness of Winger not by his capabilities.....
You be reaching pretty hard....

When Winger first took over our valuation was about 2.5billion, and in 3years it is almost double up to 4.7 billion......
We've done this while tearing the entire team down to the studs.....
We just added 2 very marketable players to our roster......
Our team is trending in a positive direction while making money.......
Our talent development is the best its ever been, all about this franchise from facilities to the teams underneath this ownership are improving, and you focus on none of that....

You don't focus on how our players have a great working environment and camraderie, how our reputation is repairing immensely....
We don't got dudes pouting on the sidelines whining like a ol broad......
You want this to become a major scandal that tears this team down...
I don't think you understand that's not going to happen, but that is ultimately what you desire....

But when it doesn't happen, and Washington becomes a basketball power, it's going to be funny to watch you continue trying to be annoying....
You just want the Wizards to fail, sadly you are about 45years too late, as we're about to turn the corner....

[payitforward]

One of the really great things about this board is the untrammeled passion & enthusiasm people bring to a bunch of completely contradictory points of view.

I don't agree w/ CntOutSmrtCrazy very often, but I always look forward to reading his posts. Ditto leswizards & a few others.

As to you, TheBlackCzar, you've been involved here since 2009, but lately you've become an active poster -- & it's been terrific! Definitely one of the best developments recently -- so keep at it!

&, you know what, I bet CntOutSmrtCrazy & leswizards agree with me!

This is a great joint!

[doclinkin]

You made a long list of unfounded accusations....

CrazyCnt is just trolling. He’s got no answer for the fact we basically just traded Kuzma for AD. So he’s hoping this story has traction.

He’s a Deni-only fan whose only stake in the Wizards at this point is to hope they fail, to justify his hate for the trade. There’s no other topic he posts about. In any thread. It’s tedious.

And actually given that we shipoed to Philly the 2nds we got in the Deni trade (with Jared Butler) for the #30 pick we sent for AD. It means of the guys we had on the team when Dawkins was hired we swapped:

Deni + Kuzma
for
Anthony Davis, Bub, 2028 1st, 2029 1st.
And draft position, to keep our pick both years.

Which looks like pretty solid asset management to me. Or at least, remains to be seen depending on what we get from/for AD.

The Deni crowd is just left arguing that it would have been better to keep a fringe all-star who scored zero points in one AS game, instead of all of the above.

Though it’s becoming harder to square the argument that Deni would actually become an all-star, while we were sitting him to prevent wins. Two years in a row. With Adam Silver breathing down our neck. Especially given we keep winning with G leaguers.

Seems clear the strategy was savvy and forward looking.

[nate33]

And actually given that we shipoed to Philly the 2nds we got in the Deni trade (with Jared Butler) for the #30 pick we sent for AD. It means of the guys we had on the team when Dawkins was hired we swapped:

Deni + Kuzma
for
Anthony Davis, Bub, 2028 1st, 2029 1st.
And draft position, to keep our pick both years.

Doc, you aren't fooling anyone with this narrative. The Deni trade was not a meaningful component of the AD acquisition. SRP's are fungible. We could have acquired Davis with other SRP's already in our arsenal.

Deni was traded for Bub, the 2029 FRP and two SRP's. That's it.

There is an argument that it was worth it for the tanking. Stick with that. Arguing that the trade was actually worth it based on value received in return is embarrassing - unless the 2029 pick proves to be a home run.

[gesa2]

And actually given that we shipoed to Philly the 2nds we got in the Deni trade (with Jared Butler) for the #30 pick we sent for AD. It means of the guys we had on the team when Dawkins was hired we swapped:

Deni + Kuzma
for
Anthony Davis, Bub, 2028 1st, 2029 1st.
And draft position, to keep our pick both years.

Doc, you aren't fooling anyone with this narrative. The Deni trade was not a meaningful component of the AD acquisition. SRP's are fungible. We could have acquired Davis with other SRP's already in our arsenal.

Deni was traded for Bub, the 2029 FRP and two SRP's. That's it.

There is an argument that it was worth it for the tanking. Stick with that. Arguing that the trade was actually worth it based on value received in return is embarrassing - unless the 2029 pick proves to be a home run.

+1. The Deni trade was the biggest misstep that Winger/Dawkins have made. I don’t need to defend the trade to defend Winger/Dawkins overall.

[payitforward]

...Deni was traded for Bub, the 2029 FRP and two SRP's. That's it.

There is an argument that it was worth it for the tanking. Stick with that. Arguing that the trade was actually worth it based on value received in return is embarrassing - unless the 2029 pick proves to be a home run.

Deni has established himself as an outstanding NBA player. It would be great to have him on this (or any) team.

Yet, we could not acquire Deni today for the value we got for him 2 years ago. That fact suffices to cast a shadow on the trade.

All the same, Deni's place in the trade represented a sensible calculation of potential value. The fact that things don't always work out as you envisioned them, according to plan, doesn't (or shouldn't) determine one's view of any action. E.g. Brogdon, whom you don't mention -- it's true that we got nothing for him, but it made sense at the time to weigh him in the scale of that trade.

It's obvious that if we get a Jimmy Butler w/ that '29 R1 pick the trade will look better than if we get a Jajuan Johnson or Norris Cole. But all future intentions & plans are subject to both disappointments & positive surprises of that kind.

We got nothing for Porzingis. Does that make Tommy's trade for him any the less brilliant? I don't think so.