Decision making during our "rebuild" has been shockingly terrible. Review of timeline + path forward

[Psubs]

I think it would be mostly the opposite, as Ujiri was a scout, he knows better on player talent, while Webster was likely behind these decisions, making changes based on coaches instead of his knowledge.

Maybe. But he also didn't do us too many favors in recent years with the draft, and he was distracted with all of his other projects, like Giants of Africa and everything. Or at least so goes the gossip, right?

This is the reason Ujiri traded for Ingram, and we are clearly a much better team, while Webster objects to it and have little idea on fixing the team.

That has certainly been generally a positive for us, outside of the past 15 games.

Anyone else wonder if Masai was allowed to make the draft pick, that he would've drafted Khaman Maluach over CMB?

[Mattatron]

Trading down (frp for srp) for Thad Young and 18mpg at 34 years old... Still unbelievable too me.

[Tacoma]

I think it would be mostly the opposite, as Ujiri was a scout, he knows better on player talent, while Webster was likely behind these decisions, making changes based on coaches instead of his knowledge.

Maybe. But he also didn't do us too many favors in recent years with the draft, and he was distracted with all of his other projects, like Giants of Africa and everything. Or at least so goes the gossip, right?

This is the reason Ujiri traded for Ingram, and we are clearly a much better team, while Webster objects to it and have little idea on fixing the team.

That has certainly been generally a positive for us, outside of the past 15 games.

Looking back now, Masai’s reputation at drafting was likely overrated. He hasn’t really hit on a pick since 2021 with Barnes - and even then it looks now like there were better options on the table. Basically, the law of averages took effect and his draft luck ran out.

If he was indeed distracted by other projects, like Giants of Africa, then he wasn’t giving 100% which is a dereliction of his duties as president of the Raptors, which I don’t think is true.

[PushDaRock]

I think it would be mostly the opposite, as Ujiri was a scout, he knows better on player talent, while Webster was likely behind these decisions, making changes based on coaches instead of his knowledge.

Maybe. But he also didn't do us too many favors in recent years with the draft, and he was distracted with all of his other projects, like Giants of Africa and everything. Or at least so goes the gossip, right?

This is the reason Ujiri traded for Ingram, and we are clearly a much better team, while Webster objects to it and have little idea on fixing the team.

That has certainly been generally a positive for us, outside of the past 15 games.

Looking back now, Masai’s reputation at drafting was likely overrated. He hasn’t really hit on a pick since 2021 with Barnes - and even then it looks now like there were better options on the table. Basically, the law of averages took effect and his draft luck ran out.

If he was indeed distracted by other projects, like Giants of Africa, then he wasn’t giving 100% which is a dereliction of his duties as president of the Raptors, which I don’t think is true.

If you space out that God Tier Run, he's still doing really well. But yeah, it's been a pretty long drought in terms of getting massive outperformers from their draft slots.

[wegotthabeet]

Scottie is a top 25 player in the NBA for some of you guys who don't actually watch the games.

[causal_fan]

The Raptors FO loves being a treadmill team and since ownership kept Bobby Webster I'm assuming ownership is ok with that approach.

[mdenny]

Poeltl, Ingram, IQ, RJ, these guys are not complimentary to Barnes’ game at all yet he still tries and makes it work.

These are 4 guys with completely different skillsets. So out of curiosity, what type of players do you think would be "complimentary" to Barnes' game?

That's the part that's puzzling to me. We literally put pieces around Scottie to compliment his game and not have him doing stuff he can't do well. He's not much of a screener, so we got Jak. Not much of a shooter, so we got IQ. Not a good driver, so we got RJ. Not a good ISO scorer, so we got Ingram.

People still seem to have this fantasy that he's Giannis light and just needs all shooters around him so he can go to work.

Yep. Scotty was supposed to be the playmaker that would initiate the offense. But he came up very very short in that regard. And now everyone is criticizing IQ's play-making even though that was supposed to be scott's role.

It's not Scotty's fault that he's treated like the golden child. It's crazy that we should all be thankful that he.....keeps playing? We should all be grateful that he doesn't quit? Lol

And ppl are more concerned that his individual stats look good than they are about raptor wins. Scott needs to do more on offense with RJ out. If his efficiency numbers go down because of that....so be it. I swear some ppl WANT him to hide in the corner on offense because they're scared his efficiency numbers will drop lol. Then all the hate gets directed at the players TRYING TO DO SOMETHING.

It makes me wonder if that's part of the problem? Is scotty playing with his efficency numbers in mind? Because it would explain his passivity and deferral.

[Raptaurus]

Trading down (frp for srp) for Thad Young and 18mpg at 34 years old... Still unbelievable too me.

After the trade was finalized, even Thad was bewildered. He thought he was gonna get waived soon and could not believe that anyone would trade a first round pick for him at that point.

[VanWest82]

Lol no one likes to watch your teams lose....But the potential outcome at the end of it is worth it than watching a horrible on court product, flawed players in positions they should not be in, Bad fit of team construction, and an ultimate first round exit all for it to just be leading to the inevitable where you have to tank in 2 years anyways because you are not good enough....

This is the assumed facts not in evidence bit. You don't know that it's worth it. We could just as easily turn into Charlotte or Washington or 00s-20s Knicks. Hollowing out the roster to the point of having zero talent is dangerous. It can be really hard to climb out of that hole even if you strike gold, and part of that is trying to flip to a winning culture after years of ugly losing.

Also, I disagree that our roster construction is bad fit. Main guys actually fit quite well when everyone is playing as we saw during 12 game win streak. Our issues have been health related and not having adequate depth at certain positions (e.g. center). We also don't have a superstar which is fair to criticize but also the hardest thing to find as there are only ever maybe 10-12 of those guys in the world at a time.

Its just id much rather start that process NOW...

How? Again, we're currently the 4th seed. We have too much talent. It's not realistic to trade half your team, especially in today's cap environment with 2nd apron restrictions and so many teams over or up against the tax.

or actually i would have liked to start that process few years ago when we drafted Barnes and actually traded all our valuable players for more future draft picks/assets than what we got for them waiting way too long....

Same issue. We had too much talent as evidenced by the fact we made the playoffs in 2022 despite handicapping ourselves with no big man. The actual time to have done this was Jan 2024 by trading Siakam and Fred. Instead, we traded for Poeltl. This has been discussed to death and basically everyone acknowledges it was a mistake, but it also happened and was a big reason why we ultimately had to pivot back to trying to win again this season.

If we started the process earlier or at least stuck with the process instead of doing it half assed like we are and have been doing by now we would have been in a 1000x better position...Asset wise and talent wise...

We didn't do it half assed though. For two years we sat guys with BS injuries. We traded for Ingram and told him not to show up. Our best players played like we were openly tanking when they did play (see Scottie effort level last year vs. this year). We played scrubs most fans had never even heard of and unfortunately some of them won games for us and then we got unlucky two years in a row in the lottery. Tanking is hard when one third of the league is trying to do it each year.

If in 2 years we have to start the process over again was it really worth it in the long run? Have you ever heard of "Slow and steady wins the race" Thats how i look at it rather than trying to be a speed demon trying to take shortcuts and half ass everything into the ground...If we actually stuck to a strategy in 2 years from now instead of having to eventually tank and rebuild again maybe in 2 years we have a potential dynasty by hitting in 2 draft cycles with good picks....And our outlook is much more promising?...

This is a poor way to make any kind of decision in life. You always have to take in new information and be open to change in approach. We tried to tank. It didn't work / wasn't working; meanwhile, the East was open. We already had too much talent and the number of East teams and some West teams were/are dysfunctional at a level we haven't seen in a long time.

2024 draft was the worst in over a decade. We tanked hard in 2025 because it was a better one but got unlucky. Tanking competition looks fierce next couple of seasons. Maybe it will be easier to do so in 2027. Either way, it's too hard to just aimlessly tank year after year like some teams used to, and everything from current roster construction, player contracts, trade offers, draft quality, conference quality, and many other thing need to be considered.

[Indeed]

Scottie is a top 25 player in the NBA for some of you guys who don't actually watch the games.

I watched every single Raptors games prior to this year, do you know how hard to watch them and focus on every movement?
He is not a 1st nor 2nd option, he is not best defender on the team, so how is he a top 25 player in the NBA? How is he a top 25 player when he is not even the best player on the team. I would argue Ingram is the best player, and we couldn't score without Ingram (last year) and Barrett (this year). I think Barrett is a better player with his PnR and floater improvement since last year, yet, I don't think he is a near-max player, let alone Barnes.

[BCbudraptorfan]

This bobby clown ant winning you nothing if you can't build a half decent roster too many holes and the drafting has been pretty mid

[Indeed]

Maybe. But he also didn't do us too many favors in recent years with the draft, and he was distracted with all of his other projects, like Giants of Africa and everything. Or at least so goes the gossip, right?



That has certainly been generally a positive for us, outside of the past 15 games.

Looking back now, Masai’s reputation at drafting was likely overrated. He hasn’t really hit on a pick since 2021 with Barnes - and even then it looks now like there were better options on the table. Basically, the law of averages took effect and his draft luck ran out.

If he was indeed distracted by other projects, like Giants of Africa, then he wasn’t giving 100% which is a dereliction of his duties as president of the Raptors, which I don’t think is true.

If you space out that God Tier Run, he's still doing really well. But yeah, it's been a pretty long drought in terms of getting massive outperformers from their draft slots.

There are other factors contributing to this, such as lack of development coaches during the previous era.

Meanwhile, I wouldn't so sure about those games prior to the last 15 games. We only won 3 teams above 500, and they were missing starters.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2489160&start=60#p120595874

Only >.500 teams the Raptors have beaten:
- Cavs (x3)
- Heat (x2)
- Sixers (x1)

None of those games were played with the opposing team at full strength. Fairly obvious fraudulent result so far.

I don't know if I would put the Heat after they traded away Bulter and just trying to rebuild (and without Herro on those games).

[Nature]

Trading down (frp for srp) for Thad Young and 18mpg at 34 years old... Still unbelievable too me.

After the trade was finalized, even Thad was bewildered. He thought he was gonna get waived soon and could not believe that anyone would trade a first round pick for him at that point.

I'm still convinced the Poeltl and Thad trades were further under the table continuations of the Kawhi trade.

It's the only way to explain them. We'll be reeling from those trades for the next 10 years.

[VanWest82]

Scottie is a top 25 player in the NBA for some of you guys who don't actually watch the games.

I watched every single Raptors games prior to this year, do you know how hard to watch them and focus on every movement?
He is not a 1st nor 2nd option, he is not best defender on the team, so how is he a top 25 player in the NBA? How is he a top 25 player when he is not even the best player on the team. I would argue Ingram is the best player, and we couldn't score without Ingram (last year) and Barrett (this year). I think Barrett is a better player with his PnR and floater improvement since last year, yet, I don't think he is a near-max player, let alone Barnes.

Scottie is easily the best defender on our team and a candidate for all defense this year. I believe he's still the league leader in stocks.

[Clutch0z24]

Lol no one likes to watch your teams lose....But the potential outcome at the end of it is worth it than watching a horrible on court product, flawed players in positions they should not be in, Bad fit of team construction, and an ultimate first round exit all for it to just be leading to the inevitable where you have to tank in 2 years anyways because you are not good enough....

This is the assumed facts not in evidence bit. You don't know that it's worth it. We could just as easily turn into Charlotte or Washington or 00s-20s Knicks. Hollowing out the roster to the point of having zero talent is dangerous. It can be really hard to climb out of that hole even if you strike gold, and part of that is trying to flip to a winning culture after years of ugly losing.

Also, I disagree that our roster construction is bad fit. Main guys actually fit quite well when everyone is playing as we saw during 12 game win streak. Our issues have been health related and not having adequate depth at certain positions (e.g. center). We also don't have a superstar which is fair to criticize but also the hardest thing to find as there are only ever maybe 10-12 of those guys in the world at a time.

Its just id much rather start that process NOW...

How? Again, we're currently the 4th seed. We have too much talent. It's not realistic to trade half your team, especially in today's cap environment with 2nd apron restrictions and so many teams over or up against the tax.

or actually i would have liked to start that process few years ago when we drafted Barnes and actually traded all our valuable players for more future draft picks/assets than what we got for them waiting way too long....

Same issue. We had too much talent as evidenced by the fact we made the playoffs in 2022 despite handicapping ourselves with no big man. The actual time to have done this was Jan 2024 by trading Siakam and Fred. Instead, we traded for Poeltl. This has been discussed to death and basically everyone acknowledges it was a mistake, but it also happened and was a big reason why we ultimately had to pivot back to trying to win again this season.

If we started the process earlier or at least stuck with the process instead of doing it half assed like we are and have been doing by now we would have been in a 1000x better position...Asset wise and talent wise...

We didn't do it half assed though. For two years we sat guys with BS injuries. We traded for Ingram and told him not to show up. Our best players played like we were openly tanking when they did play (see Scottie effort level last year vs. this year). We played scrubs most fans had never even heard of and unfortunately some of them won games for us and then we got unlucky two years in a row in the lottery. Tanking is hard when one third of the league is trying to do it each year.

If in 2 years we have to start the process over again was it really worth it in the long run? Have you ever heard of "Slow and steady wins the race" Thats how i look at it rather than trying to be a speed demon trying to take shortcuts and half ass everything into the ground...If we actually stuck to a strategy in 2 years from now instead of having to eventually tank and rebuild again maybe in 2 years we have a potential dynasty by hitting in 2 draft cycles with good picks....And our outlook is much more promising?...

This is a poor way to make any kind of decision in life. You always have to take in new information and be open to change in approach. We tried to tank. It didn't work / wasn't working; meanwhile, the East was open. We already had too much talent and the number of East teams and some West teams were/are dysfunctional at a level we haven't seen in a long time.

2024 draft was the worst in over a decade. We tanked hard in 2025 because it was a better one but got unlucky. Tanking competition looks fierce next couple of seasons. Maybe it will be easier to do so in 2027. Either way, it's too hard to just aimlessly tank year after year like some teams used to, and everything from current roster construction, player contracts, trade offers, draft quality, conference quality, and many other thing need to be considered.

You seem a little bit on the Homer side of things and delusional of how bad the product really is on the court and you also seem to have a defending complex against any bad moves the front office has made over the last 4 or so years here....You tend to ignore the potential outcome of what we could of had vs what we have now (Which is a poo poo plater of bad contracts, Zero young prospects that look like future stars, Zero first option, Often injured players) I mean you can have your head in the sand about it all you want but that doesn't change the facts this team currently constructed is a flawed bad team even if we have a winning record in the all time weak eastern conference....

Let me break it down how things could have been in an alternate timeline....

-Don't trade for Thad Young and keep our draft position that year we walk away with Walker Kessler instead of Koloko whos basically retired....
-Don't trade for Yak at the deadline....We were a losing team that year because we were a bad team (Lost to a pretty bad Bulls team in the playins LOL)

Let me break down an alternate timeline for you and why it set us back so many years...

1.If we do not trade for Yak that year and start the process sooner (We literally traded everyone a year later where we lost our pick in this exact trade) We could have...
-Walked away with assets for FVV instead of losing him for absolutly zero in the offseason, Got a way better package for Siakam had we made him available and had a bidding war on him, Prolly also got a bit better for OG considering both were NOT expiring contracts....Thats future first rounders we missed out on, Better players in return as well And also FVV gets us at least another pick or two.....So That yak trade and going the direction of LOSING in the play ins costed us alot of assets in the process.

2.We miss out on just the CHANCE to play the lottery for a generational talent....Wemby is not just a generational talent as well he is a potential GOAT talent....Even just giving yourself a chance in the lottery for that kind of a player no one would be mad at that....But lets say we do not win the Lottery and we do not get Wemby....

-Thompson twins are there
-Brandon Miller is there
-Cason Wallace is there
-Derrick Livley III Is there
-Bilal Coulibaly is there

^^^All these players on this list i would much rather have today on my team on a rookie scale contract than a cooked back Yak (Who never even helped us make the playoffs in his entire stint here)

3.We miss out on the 2024 Draft....LOL at you saying it was a bad draft...That maybe true for potential franchise altering players but it still had some very good talent in it we missed out on....I would take BOTH Edey/Ware over Yak anyday of the week right now especially on a Rookie scale contract.....They are both outperforming him and are not totally cooked with a back injury, And they are both not in their 30s...

4.With Yak not here in the 2025 tank year we would have been much more primed to tank better for a higher draft selection...But even if it is the case we slip in the 2025 draft lotto i would have took Queen > CMB which would be a much higher ceiling type of pick or traded the pick to NOH and got their 2026 FRP....Another blunder by Bobby not accepting that trade offer.....But again without Yak we prolly tank better and end up with a better pick to grab a much more higher potential player....

5.With Yak off the team and a team full of young good prospects and all the other assets we would have gotten via the FVV/Siakam/OG trades you are looking at a team with actual GOOD young talent instead of the bad young talent .....And your looking at a team with much more hope for the future because we have more draft picks, more assets that people actually would want in trades and just an overall better team....

What have we accomplished since going "All in" with the Yak trade and trying to compete with this flawed team? We have gotten NOTHING....We lost a play ins matchup and made our draft position worse....We might just scrape into the playoffs this year if we get lucky because the way its been looking even thats not a lock yet....So we threw away years of asset accumulating for what exactly?

[Raps in 4]

I think Bobby needs a short leash. He needs to prove he operates differently from Masai.

[VanWest82]

You seem a little bit on the Homer side of things and delusional of how bad the product really is on the court and you also seem to have a defending complex against any bad moves the front office has made over the last 4 or so years here....

I'm not defending the bad moves. I'm pushing back against the extreme "chicken little bad product" narratives being pushed around here. It's way over the top given both where the team sits in the standings as well as our optionality moving forward. Like, look at the Clippers situation. Look at Bucks. Those teams are F'd. We're in a slump because guys got gassed during our 7 games in 11 days, key players have been out, and young guys are underperforming. That could and likely will change.

You tend to ignore the potential outcome of what we could of had vs what we have now (Which is a poo poo plater of bad contracts, Zero young prospects that look like future stars, Zero first option, Often injured players) I mean you can have your head in the sand about it all you want but that doesn't change the facts this team currently constructed is a flawed bad team even if we have a winning record in the all time weak eastern conference....

Look, I'm not saying current roster situation is ideal. Far from it. I agree our contracts are awful and we don't have guys that look like future all stars outside of Scottie; rather, I'm saying we still have roster flexibility given we have all our picks and an obvious out in 12-18 months. In the meantime, we get to watch a team that's at least trying to win for a bit after two straight seasons of trying to tank with little to show for it.

And yes, Poeltl trade aside, I don't think the outcome would've been much better had we done certain things differently unless you use an insane amount of hindsight. The fact of the matter is the team did exactly what you're arguing for for two straight years.

Let me break it down how things could have been in an alternate timeline....

-Don't trade for Thad Young and keep our draft position that year we walk away with Walker Kessler instead of Koloko whos basically retired....
-Don't trade for Yak at the deadline....We were a losing team that year because we were a bad team (Lost to a pretty bad Bulls team in the playins LOL)

Walker Kessler over Koloko isn't changing our destiny. If that's your level of nitpick then you don't really have an argument. Again, we agree about the Poeltl trade which I said to you in my earlier reply.

Let me break down an alternate timeline for you and why it set us back so many years...

1.If we do not trade for Yak that year and start the process sooner (We literally traded everyone a year later where we lost our pick in this exact trade) We could have...
-Walked away with assets for FVV instead of losing him for absolutly zero in the offseason, Got a way better package for Siakam had we made him available and had a bidding war on him, Prolly also got a bit better for OG considering both were NOT expiring contracts....Thats future first rounders we missed out on, Better players in return as well And also FVV gets us at least another pick or two.....So That yak trade and going the direction of LOSING in the play ins costed us alot of assets in the process.

Again, I've already made this argument; in fact, feel free to search how it was that I was one of the very few posters in Jan 2024 actually arguing on these boards that we should trade Siakam at that deadline (Fred too though my argument at the time was he had limited value due to contract status and injury).

2.We miss out on just the CHANCE to play the lottery for a generational talent....Wemby is not just a generational talent as well he is a potential GOAT talent....Even just giving yourself a chance in the lottery for that kind of a player no one would be mad at that....But lets say we do not win the Lottery and we do not get Wemby....

-Thompson twins are there
-Brandon Miller is there
-Cason Wallace is there
-Derrick Livley III Is there
-Bilal Coulibaly is there

^^^All these players on this list i would much rather have today on my team on a rookie scale contract than a cooked back Yak (Who never even helped us make the playoffs in his entire stint here)

More words just so you can flush out a point we agree on...

3.We miss out on the 2024 Draft....LOL at you saying it was a bad draft...That maybe true for potential franchise altering players but it still had some very good talent in it we missed out on....I would take BOTH Edey/Ware over Yak anyday of the week right now especially on a Rookie scale contract.....They are both outperforming him and are not totally cooked with a back injury, And they are both not in their 30s...

Here you're still not acknowledging that we TRIED TO TANK that year and just got unlucky with scrubs playing well down the stretch and in the lottery. All you're doing here is proving my point that it's really difficult to tank with new odds system and when one third of the league is doing it every year.

4.With Yak not here in the 2025 tank year we would have been much more primed to tank better for a higher draft selection...But even if it is the case we slip in the 2025 draft lotto i would have took Queen > CMB which would be a much higher ceiling type of pick or traded the pick to NOH and got their 2026 FRP....Another blunder by Bobby not accepting that trade offer.....But again without Yak we prolly tank better and end up with a better pick to grab a much more higher potential player....

Here you're passing judgement on one super flawed player over another after 30 games. You have no idea how these guys will turn out. Stop pretending like you do.

As for the Portland trade offer, I would've taken that deal too though at some point we need to acknowledge the reality that these guys are running a business and very few, if any, teams would've done that deal after tanking two years in a row and nothing to show for it.

5.With Yak off the team and a team full of young good prospects and all the other assets we would have gotten via the FVV/Siakam/OG trades you are looking at a team with actual GOOD young talent instead of the bad young talent we have.....And your looking at a team with much more hope for the future because we have more draft picks, more assets that people actually would want in trades and just an overall better team....

More words to describe something we agree on. Basically your entire thesis is we messed up with the Poeltl trade. Everyone agrees. The part we don't agree on is decision making before and after that trade is more of a mixed bag both situationally and directionally. For example, Ingram trade was solid given the price but his contract is rough. Decision to tank was correct both years but we were more unlucky than doing it poorly. I hate the Poeltl and IQ contracts like everyone else. Love the Mamu and Shead pick ups. Dick and Walter look bad but hard to criticize too much given who was taken after them and overall draft record of this FO. CMB tbd. Scottie was a solid pick and currently a valuable trade asset if we do decide to blow it up. RJ also now looks like a trade asset despite being distressed two years ago - give Raptors some credit for that one. All this to say, it isn't nearly as bad as you describe.

[Clutch0z24]

You seem a little bit on the Homer side of things and delusional of how bad the product really is on the court and you also seem to have a defending complex against any bad moves the front office has made over the last 4 or so years here....

I'm not defending the bad moves. I'm pushing back against the extreme "chicken little bad product" narratives being pushed around here. It's way over the top given both where the team sits in the standings as well as our optionality moving forward. Like, look at the Clippers situation. Look at Bucks. Those teams are F'd. We're in a slump because guys got gassed during our 7 games in 11 days, key players have been out, and young guys are underperforming. That could and likely will change.

You tend to ignore the potential outcome of what we could of had vs what we have now (Which is a poo poo plater of bad contracts, Zero young prospects that look like future stars, Zero first option, Often injured players) I mean you can have your head in the sand about it all you want but that doesn't change the facts this team currently constructed is a flawed bad team even if we have a winning record in the all time weak eastern conference....

Look, I'm not saying current roster situation is ideal. Far from it. I agree our contracts are awful and we don't have guys that look like future all stars outside of Scottie; rather, I'm saying we still have roster flexibility given we have all our picks and an obvious out in 12-18 months. In the meantime, we get to watch a team that's at least trying to win for a bit after two straight seasons of trying to tank with little to show for it.

And yes, Poeltl trade aside, I don't think the outcome would've been much better had we done certain things differently unless you use an insane amount of hindsight. The fact of the matter is the team did exactly what you're arguing for for two straight years.

Let me break it down how things could have been in an alternate timeline....

-Don't trade for Thad Young and keep our draft position that year we walk away with Walker Kessler instead of Koloko whos basically retired....
-Don't trade for Yak at the deadline....We were a losing team that year because we were a bad team (Lost to a pretty bad Bulls team in the playins LOL)

Walker Kessler over Koloko isn't changing our destiny. If that's your level of nitpick then you don't really have an argument. Again, we agree about the Poeltl trade which I said to you in my earlier reply.

Let me break down an alternate timeline for you and why it set us back so many years...

1.If we do not trade for Yak that year and start the process sooner (We literally traded everyone a year later where we lost our pick in this exact trade) We could have...
-Walked away with assets for FVV instead of losing him for absolutly zero in the offseason, Got a way better package for Siakam had we made him available and had a bidding war on him, Prolly also got a bit better for OG considering both were NOT expiring contracts....Thats future first rounders we missed out on, Better players in return as well And also FVV gets us at least another pick or two.....So That yak trade and going the direction of LOSING in the play ins costed us alot of assets in the process.

Again, I've already made this argument; in fact, feel free to search how it was that I was one of the very few posters in Jan 2024 actually arguing on these boards that we should trade Siakam at that deadline (Fred too though my argument at the time was he had limited value due to contract status and injury).

2.We miss out on just the CHANCE to play the lottery for a generational talent....Wemby is not just a generational talent as well he is a potential GOAT talent....Even just giving yourself a chance in the lottery for that kind of a player no one would be mad at that....But lets say we do not win the Lottery and we do not get Wemby....

-Thompson twins are there
-Brandon Miller is there
-Cason Wallace is there
-Derrick Livley III Is there
-Bilal Coulibaly is there

^^^All these players on this list i would much rather have today on my team on a rookie scale contract than a cooked back Yak (Who never even helped us make the playoffs in his entire stint here)

More words just so you can flush out a point we agree on...

3.We miss out on the 2024 Draft....LOL at you saying it was a bad draft...That maybe true for potential franchise altering players but it still had some very good talent in it we missed out on....I would take BOTH Edey/Ware over Yak anyday of the week right now especially on a Rookie scale contract.....They are both outperforming him and are not totally cooked with a back injury, And they are both not in their 30s...

Here you're still not acknowledging that we TRIED TO TANK that year and just got unlucky with scrubs playing well down the stretch and in the lottery. All you're doing here is proving my point that it's really difficult to tank with new odds system and when one third of the league is doing it every year.

4.With Yak not here in the 2025 tank year we would have been much more primed to tank better for a higher draft selection...But even if it is the case we slip in the 2025 draft lotto i would have took Queen > CMB which would be a much higher ceiling type of pick or traded the pick to NOH and got their 2026 FRP....Another blunder by Bobby not accepting that trade offer.....But again without Yak we prolly tank better and end up with a better pick to grab a much more higher potential player....

Here you're passing judgement on one super flawed player over another after 30 games. You have no idea how these guys will turn out. Stop pretending like you do.

As for the Portland trade offer, I would've taken that deal too though at some point we need to acknowledge the reality that these guys are running a business and very few, if any, teams would've done that deal after tanking two years in a row and nothing to show for it.

5.With Yak off the team and a team full of young good prospects and all the other assets we would have gotten via the FVV/Siakam/OG trades you are looking at a team with actual GOOD young talent instead of the bad young talent we have.....And your looking at a team with much more hope for the future because we have more draft picks, more assets that people actually would want in trades and just an overall better team....

More words to describe something we agree on. Basically your entire thesis is we messed up with the Poeltl trade. Everyone agrees. The part we don't agree on is decision making before and after that trade is more of a mixed bag both situationally and directionally. For example, Ingram trade was solid given the price but his contract is rough. Decision to tank was correct both years but we were more unlucky than doing it poorly. I hate the Poeltl and IQ contracts like everyone else. Love the Mamu and Shead pick ups. Dick and Walter look bad but hard to criticize too much given who was taken after them and overall draft record of this FO. CMB tbd. Scottie was a solid pick and currently a valuable trade asset if we do decide to blow it up. RJ also now looks like a trade asset despite being distressed two years ago - give Raptors some credit for that one. All this to say, it isn't nearly as bad as you describe.

Lol you don't even know what you are talking about...

1. We didn't have a pick in 2024 draft because we traded it for Yak in the trade....So even if we tanked that year we were 25-57 but the Spurs had our pick...

2.It wasn't Portland it was NOH that traded their pick....We could of had a top 5 2026 FRP > CMB....Anyone would take that gamble ....NOH were always going to be a bad team this year that is not a hard thing to predict...Especially they are in the West...

The asset managment has been piss poor until you see that we will agree to disagree...And we are a pretty bad team still even if you try and say otherwise....We are not worst in the league bad but We stand zero chance against actual good teams in the NBA in any playoff series....What does that accomplish exactly? Really nothing but a waste of time at the end of the day...Unless you believe we are making a finals run or something

[VanWest82]

Lol you don't even know what you are talking about...

1. We didn't have a pick in 2024 draft because we traded it for Yak in the trade....So even if we tanked that year we were 25-57 but the Spurs had our pick...

Pick was top 7 protected. We slipped to 8th in lottery.

2.It wasn't Portland it was NOH that traded their pick....

Yes NOH not Portland. My bad for typing the wrong team name. Great job by you for pointing that part out!

We could of had a top 5 2026 FRP > CMB....Anyone would take that gamble ....NOH were always going to be a bad team this year that is not a hard thing to predict...Especially they are in the West...

Like I said, I would've taken that deal. The part you're not acknowledging is no team is giving away their one reward after two straight years of tanking. I'd imagine Rogers would've fired the entire front office on the spot if they did that assuming they would've been allowed to do that.

The asset managment has been piss poor until you see that we will agree to disagree...And we are a pretty bad team still even if you try and say otherwise....We are not worst in the league bad but We stand zero chance against actual good teams in the NBA in any playoff series....What does that accomplish exactly? Really nothing but a waste of time at the end of the day...

Yes, agree to disagree. We are objectively not a "pretty bad team". You have no point here and have made zero attempt to even make one on this issue despite multiple exchanges.

Most teams in the league stand zero chance in a playoff series against actual good teams. The good news for us is most of the good teams are in the West, so we might get to play a mid team in round one. But either way, we're too good to tank again and would've been too good to tank even if we hadn't traded for Ingram just like last two years where half the team was injured and we sat guys and played scrubs and still had little to no hope of cracking top 5 in the draft. Our options were to compete for a couple of years or do more rounds of draft 7-10 range while not developing the talent we did have on the roster and ruining their trade value in the process. You've constructed a scenario in your head that doesn't even exist to justifty your disdain for the FO so you can complain incessently on an internet forum.

[Clutch0z24]

Lol you don't even know what you are talking about...

1. We didn't have a pick in 2024 draft because we traded it for Yak in the trade....So even if we tanked that year we were 25-57 but the Spurs had our pick...

Pick was top 7 protected. We slipped to 8th in lottery.

2.It wasn't Portland it was NOH that traded their pick....

Yes NOH not Portland. My bad for typing the wrong team name. Great job by you for pointing that part out!

We could of had a top 5 2026 FRP > CMB....Anyone would take that gamble ....NOH were always going to be a bad team this year that is not a hard thing to predict...Especially they are in the West...

Like I said, I would've taken that deal. The part you're not acknowledging is no team is giving away their one reward after two straight years of tanking. I'd imagine Rogers would've fired the entire front office on the spot if they did that assuming they would've been allowed to do that.

The asset managment has been piss poor until you see that we will agree to disagree...And we are a pretty bad team still even if you try and say otherwise....We are not worst in the league bad but We stand zero chance against actual good teams in the NBA in any playoff series....What does that accomplish exactly? Really nothing but a waste of time at the end of the day...

Yes, agree to disagree. We are objectively not a "pretty bad team". You have no point here and have made zero attempt to even make one on this issue despite multiple exchanges.

Most teams in the league stand zero chance in a playoff series against actual good teams. The good news for us is most of the good teams are in the West, so we might get to play a mid team in round one. But either way, we're too good to tank again and would've been too good to tank even if we hadn't traded for Ingram just like last two years where half the team was injured and we sat guys and played scrubs and still had little to no hope of cracking top 5 in the draft. Our options were to compete for a couple of years or do more rounds of draft 7-10 range while not developing the talent we did have on the roster and ruining their trade value in the process. You've constructed a scenario in your head that doesn't even exist to justifty your disdain for the FO so you can complain incessently on an internet forum.

If yu get that pick in 2024 you lose your 2025 pick....Pick your poison with that one lmao...

Again why in the F would we not be allowed to make a beneficial trade to set you up in a better position than what you are currently in now? Why the hell would anyone care if we gave up CMB....A mid level prospect for a legit good 2026 Unprotected FRP?....You just sound as moronic as Bobby was when he didn't accept the deal when it was offered.....Thats a deal you take because you can compete still and be a "Mid team" like we are now while also having another team tank for you....Its a win/win situation....No one and i repeat no one would be losing sleep missing out on CMB for a top 5 2026 draft pick...

And no im just pointing out the obvious flaws with the team and the horrible bad moves made for the past years that got us to this point of being a mid team with bad contracts and no good young prospects....Sounds like you are just delusional on the upside of the team which is fine....But i am sure i will be the right one in the direction where this ultimatly ends up going....Bobby fired, Blow up in a year or two...