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Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8

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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1001 » by Scott Carefoot » Wed May 18, 2011 6:57 pm

Here are Holly's notes from Colangelo's conference call after the lottery:
http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog/20 ... colangelo/

Bryan Colangelo wrote:"It’s interesting. We obviously knew that there was a chance that we would move from three back to six. When you looked at the draft and talked about the top two being fairly definitive, number three, number four, number five, I’m not sure there’s a lot of difference there. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder in this situation. I do know that after those top two picks, there’s another handful of players that we really like which means we’re going to get one of the players that we really like and all of them address different needs. There’s a couple of point guards to possibly choose from. Brandon Knight and Kemba Walker. There’s a couple of bigs to choose from in Kanter, Valanciunas, Biyombo. Then you look at some of the other players, there’s an interesting small forward in Kawhi Leonard. There’s a scoring wing who is capable of handling the ball a little bit in in Jan Vesley. There’s all kinds of different players that we can choose from. The biggest weakness that we have might be at that five position. I’m not sure we’re going to get any kind of quick fix there with respect to that position and particularly the need that we have at defending the rim, rebounding the ball and having the kind player coming in to having an immediate impact. I’m not sure it’s there in this draft."
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1002 » by Strategist1 » Wed May 18, 2011 6:59 pm

Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:
witnessraps wrote:So will teams have a hard time scoring on us or what with a James Johnson/Ed Davis/Biyombo frontcourt? Bayless is not to shabby defensively and hopefuly DeMar improves in that aspect.


Try scoring on those long *** arms between Davis and Biyombo. It all depends on Biyombo, and whether he pans out or not. Davis would need to develop an offensive game for that pairing to be worthy of starting.


Ed had something like 12+ double doubles in his rookie season. He generally scored in the flow without having any plays called for him.

I'm confident a prime Ed Davis can score 12-15 points per game. If Amir off the bench can score 8-15 points a game. And if Biyombo scores lets say 5-8 points on putbacks/dunks alone, that's enough scoring in the front court IMO.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1003 » by Silk Wilkes » Wed May 18, 2011 7:00 pm

T_Biggums wrote:
Youngblood wrote:
T_Biggums wrote:
dude... everything is thrown out the window when you're talking about HOF players. Why not try that with players who aren't otherworldly?


Give me an example of another team in the same scenario. There isn't one, see how that works?


Maybe because no other team in their right mind would have a backcourt that includes two starters that can't shoot. You see how that works! Only Hall of Famers make that scenario work get it! :wink:


You really don't get it. Just because they're hall of fame players doesn't mean other players can't drive as effectively. Is Monta Ellis a hall of famer? Is Rajon Rondo a hall of famer? Is Russell Westbrook a hall of famer? No, so you surround them with shooters, like I said. /Ownage.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1004 » by witnessraps » Wed May 18, 2011 7:00 pm

Youngblood wrote:
witnessraps wrote:So will teams have a hard time scoring on us or what with a James Johnson/Ed Davis/Biyombo frontcourt? Bayless is not to shabby defensively and hopefuly DeMar improves in that aspect.


That would go both ways.


Yes definitely, but the offense has tended to take care of itself for this organization. Offense is obviously 50% of the game but amazing defense is frickin priceless. Hopefully Colangelo realizes that we will never be a winner by Bargnani outchucking the opponents, but we will do it on the defensive end.

Also, Davis wasn't too shabby offensively.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1005 » by TDotRep » Wed May 18, 2011 7:01 pm

5DOM wrote:
truthrising wrote:
5DOM wrote:I've obviously watched Taj Gibson both in college and in the NBA, but proven or not Taj Gibson can't be the best case scenario for a potential top 5 player even in a weak draft like this one

Gibson (25y/o sophomore) is averaging 7/6/1 on 50TS% and 14.3PER.
I think those two dunks he had against Miami made you guys believe he's some amazing player.

Givony said Gibson would be the worst case scenario for Biyombo in which case he's clearly over-rating the guy.

But at the end of the day, I wouldn't mind if the Raps take a flier on this guy cause he's has the potential in being a Serge Ibaka type player


Not sure how he's overrating Biyombo by saying his worst case scenario is Taj Gibson. We are talking about a player who's 5-6 years younger than Gibson when he came out, has already produced in the ACB and has better measurements than Gibson. It's not like Gibson had/has much to offer offensively either.


God take the Biyombo Blinders off there is no way the worst case scenario is Gibson, so at worst he could be a very good rotation guy? No at worst he could be useless. Thats not to say that he will but thats a possibility.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1006 » by ty123 » Wed May 18, 2011 7:02 pm

Situational Statistics: This Year’s Power Forward Crop
June 14, 2010
Ed Davis missed quite a bit of time down the stretch, but he accomplished quite a bit early in the year and looks better from a situational perspective than some more polished players.

Davis’ 12.5 possessions per-game rank him just above Patterson in terms of usage and still right around the average for our sample of power forwards. His 1.0 overall PPP is good for 6th, and shows that despite being a raw offensive player, he still gets the job done efficiently. He certainly helped his cause last season by getting fouled on 12.3% of his shots (3rd).

Though Davis was pretty productive overall relative to his touches, he ranked right around the average in post up situations in terms of efficiency (0.84 PPP) and usage (4 Pos/G). He benefitted from the play of his teammates, finishing his possessions from basket cuts at an excellent 77.8% clip. In contrast, he shot just 28.6% in a meager sample of spot-up opportunities (0.4 Pos/G). Clearly, Davis still needs to improve his midrange game to become a more capable threat from the elbows and a more versatile scorer.

Attempting the fewest jump shots on our list at just 0.4 shots per-game, Davis got a larger percentage of his shots in finishing situations than every player on our list aside from Latavious Williams. Though Davis was able to be pretty effective on the whole, he’s a bit limited in what areas he can help a team at this time. Whatever team drafts him will do so with the hope that he’ll be able to round out the rest of his game while still taking advantage of what his teammates can create for him around the basket.
[Read Full Article]


From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ed- ... z1MjR34nWm
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Situational Statistics: This Year's Small Forward Crop
April 24, 2009

• Whichever team drafts Demar DeRozan will be picking him in the hopes that he’ll growing into their system, and not because he’s already a great fit.

Unlike every other player in our analysis, DeRozan doesn’t make a living in any one situation, though he is one of the most efficient players on our list. In our last piece we discussed the new %Score stat which indicates how frequently a player scored a point based on their logged possessions. DeRozan ranks first amongst the nineteen players on our list at 54.4%. However, he ranks only 16th in overall PPP. This disparity stems from the fact that he shoots nearly three less three-pointers per game than the average player on our list (4.3 vs. 1.3) and ranks last in terms of three-point percentage at just 16.7%. He doesn’t get to the free throw line at a great rate to compensate and only converts on a mediocre 65% of his attempts once there. He makes up for that by shooting 49% from the field on his isolation opportunities (4th), knocking down his catch and shoot jumpers at a 43% clip (6th), and hitting 41% of his pull ups as well (4th). Clearly DeRozan has a solid knack for operating in the mid-range area, which should serve him well in the more spacing-friendly NBA. He’s also a good offensive rebounder—a testament to his excellent physical tools.

Outside of those areas, DeRozan proves a very average player across the board. His defensive rebounding totals sit just below the mean as does his assists numbers, PPP working off of cuts (1.22) and as a finisher around the rim in general (1.14). He sits a bit further below the average in a number of other situations including spot up (1.02 vs. 0.93) and transition opportunities (1.19 vs 1.03). Considering that he didn’t do almost any posting up (0.3 Pos/G) or shooting coming off of screens (0.7 Pos/G), the weight teams put on how significantly they believe he can improve his range and ability to improve his efficiency in a defined system will likely determine where he lands on draft day. A freak athlete, DeRozan has some natural offensive talent, but he’s essentially a blank canvas in terms of what kind of player he can be in the long run. Whoever picks him will obviously need to be patient, although he may more upside that arguably any wing player in this draft.
[Read Full Article]


From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dem ... z1MjRtyuNv
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Bargnani, ranked as the #1 prospect in the Euroleague in our preseason introduction has been getting a lot of hype in the past few months, and so far this season has been living up to it and then some.

He's improving in many facets of his game, but if there's one word that sums it all up, it would be confidence. His contribution to Benetton's cause is increasing week by week, and he's firmly establishing himself as one of the most important parts of a strong team (currently tied for second in group A). When he's on the court, he's not afraid of taking shots or slashing to the hoop when he has to, but still doesn't force the issue and lets the game flow to him.

His stats are impressive regardless, especially in the Italian league, where even though he comes off the bench and plays just 20 minutes per game, he's the second best scorer on his team and 4th overall in the league in points-per-minute. He shoots with fantastic percentages, both from inside and out, gets a decent amount of rebounds and is the #1 shot-blocker in the league.

In the Euroleague his stats are not as good, but they're affected by a slow start in his first games, while in the past few weeks he's starting to show what he can do even against strong competition.

Going beyond the numbers, he has many qualities that are exactly what NBA scouts crave. As you can read in his scouting report, despite being a 7-footer he's very quick and coordinated, his first step is superb for a big man, and he’s generally a very good athlete for his size with a nice vertical leap.

In addition to these intriguing physical attributes, his game is already well refined, as he can shoot from anywhere on the floor--featuring a very high and quick release--and can put the ball on the floor and beat most big men off the dribble thanks to his very nice ball-handling skills, finishing with improving strength in traffic or shooting with great touch from mid-range. Defensively, he plays hard and uses his good foot-speed to guard smaller players, and goes up for blocks with good timing.

The main issue about him is how his game translates to the NBA. He's quick, but probably not enough to be a small forward, and he still misses the strength and a solid back-to-the-basket game to play in the paint, although this might not be a huge concern since he seems to have the frame to bulk up in the future. Right now, he still suffers a bit on the glass, but bulking could help solve some of his problems here. He has not had that many problems guarding both smaller players and big men so far this season, although in the NBA it would be harder for him because of the superior athleticism that most players display. His court vision and passing skills seem not to be in line with his basketball IQ, as they are just average.

The fact is, in the past years many of the young European players that came to the US were big guys with good perimeter skills, but not strong enough to play under the basket, and that resulted in failure for them, and for the teams that drafted them. What might put Bargnani in better shape is the fact that he waited to declare and stayed in Treviso until he got significant playing time, giving himself the needed time to grow as a player and as a man, without the pressure that comes along with being a lottery pick. Benetton is a strong team in Europe, but it's pretty famous for developing young talent. His game, although not fully developed yet, is already light years ahead of Tskitishvili at the time the Georgian was drafted by the Nuggets, and as the season goes on, it can only improve. Right now it looks like Bargnani will almost surely declare and should be a lock for the high lottery pick in June.


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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1007 » by ty123 » Wed May 18, 2011 7:03 pm

I'd say draftexpress was pretty bang on.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1008 » by Silk Wilkes » Wed May 18, 2011 7:03 pm

witnessraps wrote:
Youngblood wrote:
witnessraps wrote:So will teams have a hard time scoring on us or what with a James Johnson/Ed Davis/Biyombo frontcourt? Bayless is not to shabby defensively and hopefuly DeMar improves in that aspect.


That would go both ways.


Yes definitely, but the offense has tended to take care of itself for this organization. Offense is obviously 50% of the game but amazing defense is frickin priceless. Hopefully Colangelo realizes that we will never be a winner by Bargnani outchucking the opponents, but we will do it on the defensive end.

Also, Davis wasn't too shabby offensively.


Agreed that defense is necessary but the offense won't take of itself unless you have guys who can score. Throwing Bayless/DeRozan/Johnson/Davis/Biyombo out there is going to struggle to score no matter how we look at it. Someone has to go to the bench and shooter/creators need to be implanted into the rotation for it to work.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1009 » by TDotRep » Wed May 18, 2011 7:06 pm

witnessraps wrote:
Youngblood wrote:
witnessraps wrote:So will teams have a hard time scoring on us or what with a James Johnson/Ed Davis/Biyombo frontcourt? Bayless is not to shabby defensively and hopefuly DeMar improves in that aspect.


That would go both ways.


Yes definitely, but the offense has tended to take care of itself for this organization. Offense is obviously 50% of the game but amazing defense is frickin priceless. Hopefully Colangelo realizes that we will never be a winner by Bargnani outchucking the opponents, but we will do it on the defensive end.

Also, Davis wasn't too shabby offensively.


Projected starting line-up:

Pg - Bayless
Sg - Derozan
Sf - Johnson
Pf - Davis
C - Bismack

Not bad defensively but we will struggle offensively. If Davis can develop his offensive game this off-season it won't be as horrid.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1010 » by Mr.Raptorsingh » Wed May 18, 2011 7:08 pm

We would definitely need a guy like Gallinari, or some ace shooter if we plan on rolling with that lineup.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1011 » by Strategist1 » Wed May 18, 2011 7:11 pm

Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:We would definitely need a guy like Gallinari, or some ace shooter if we plan on rolling with that lineup.


This lineup is raw enough to secure a high pick in the 2012 draft where we can hopefully find an all star talent... like Harrison Barnes.

We need another high pick in 2012 for the rebuild. OR acquire another top 7 pick in this draft.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1012 » by prototype » Wed May 18, 2011 7:14 pm

ty123 wrote:I'd say draftexpress was pretty bang on.

The Bayless and J. Johnson's scouting report are pretty spot on too. Funny how pretty much all the players we have right now draftexpress says need to be in the right situation.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1013 » by Bankai » Wed May 18, 2011 7:14 pm

Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:We would definitely need a guy like Gallinari, or some ace shooter if we plan on rolling with that lineup.

We have a Gallinari, his name is Kleiza. But that would depend if people around here would actually want Kleiza to play.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1014 » by bboyskinnylegs » Wed May 18, 2011 7:15 pm

Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:
bboyskinnylegs wrote:Looking at the numbers, Kemba's assist rate in his first year (29.6%), 2nd year (30.7%), when he was more 'pass-first' and of course now in his 3rd year (19%) is less than Bayless' assist rate this whole year (36%).


I think people look way too much into statistics when they evaluate, and not enough at context, and that applies to Kemba Walker in particular. If you watched him play, and I know you did bboy, you'd see that he always started the game out at PG, looking to get others involved. It's when nobody was making shots (other than Lamb), that Calhoun moved him over to SG, and put Napier at PG. At that point, Kemba became a scorer. He was looking to get buckets for his team. That's what he was focusing on. The game that really brought out his PG skills, was against a weak opponent, in Bucknell, where his teammates picked up the slack, and he didn't have to do as much. He finished with 18 pts, 8 rebs, and 12 assists, while only taking 11 shots for the whole game. Bucknell pretty much dared Kemba to pass the ball by trapping him, and he hurt them with his playmaking because his teammates were making shots.

So, I think it's more about what was asked and required of Kemba by coach Calhoun more than anything. When you watch him, you could see that he can get into the painted area at will, and make defences collapse. You put that ability on our team, and it's only going to make things easier for DeMar, and Ed because opposing bigs are going to have to help on him - that's when those assists will come for Kemba. But, I agree - it's his ability to score the ball, that makes him lethal at the PG spot, because I'm guessing opposing PGs won't be able to stay in front of him, which is going to force defences to cross-match, and put bigger guys on him (like Kentucky did with Liggins), which should open post up opportunities for DeMar and James Johnson.

That's how I see things playing out with Kemba, particularly if he continues to refine his jumpshot. I think he'll be a force, man. It's up to him to get that jumpshot a bit better.

I like Kemba, and I prefer him over Knight, but I'm not sure he would end up being an improvement over Bayless imo (especially since Bayless appears to be a more efficient scorer). I agree he does have potential as a playmaker, and could very well end up being a star PG, I'm just saying we haven't seen him do it consistently well enough at this point. Which is fine, I would have no problems having both of them if Kemba was determined to be the BPA--I think the two of them could make a great tandem at PG, and we could then look to move Jose and build with a truly dynamic PG duo. I just think there may be other good options at C to consider as well, and that's the direction I think I'm leaning towards at this point in time.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1015 » by T_Biggums » Wed May 18, 2011 7:15 pm

Youngblood wrote:
T_Biggums wrote:
Youngblood wrote:
Give me an example of another team in the same scenario. There isn't one, see how that works?


Maybe because no other team in their right mind would have a backcourt that includes two starters that can't shoot. You see how that works! Only Hall of Famers make that scenario work get it! :wink:


You really don't get it. Just because they're hall of fame players doesn't mean other players can't drive as effectively. Is Monta Ellis a hall of famer? Is Rajon Rondo a hall of famer? Is Russell Westbrook a hall of famer? No, so you surround them with shooters, like I said. /Ownage.



lol... do you even know what you're arguing anymore? is your level of understanding that poor?

When you have two guys that are HALL OF FAMERS in the backcourt the need for a complimentary sharpshooter to off set them is minimal.

When you have two players in the backcourt who are just average the need for a sharpshooter is paramount but what position is that guy going to play? PF? C? maybe PG but he's the primary ball handler who's responsibility it is to break down the defense and get it to a shooter or a slasher.

A Burks/DeMar backcourt would be brutal because defenses would just log the lane and sag off them on the perimeter thus making it next to impossible to use their most valuable asset which is getting into the lane and finishing.

Monta has Curry. Rajon has Pierce AND Shuttlesworth, Westbrook has the best pure scorer since Bird and also Harden. Point is when you have one guy who is adept at getting in the lane but can't shoot you need someone on the perimeter to open up the lane for that player to be effective. Two guys that can't shoot make it near impossible unless they are Hall of Famers.

But ya you owned me... :crazy:
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1016 » by Silk Wilkes » Wed May 18, 2011 7:25 pm

T_Biggums wrote:
Youngblood wrote:
T_Biggums wrote:
Maybe because no other team in their right mind would have a backcourt that includes two starters that can't shoot. You see how that works! Only Hall of Famers make that scenario work get it! :wink:


You really don't get it. Just because they're hall of fame players doesn't mean other players can't drive as effectively. Is Monta Ellis a hall of famer? Is Rajon Rondo a hall of famer? Is Russell Westbrook a hall of famer? No, so you surround them with shooters, like I said. /Ownage.



lol... do you even know what you're arguing anymore? is your level of understanding that poor?

When you have two guys that are HALL OF FAMERS in the backcourt the need for a complimentary sharpshooter to off set them is minimal.

When you have two players in the backcourt who are just average the need for a sharpshooter is paramount but what position is that guy going to play? PF? C? maybe PG but he's the primary ball handler who's responsibility it is to break down the defense and get it to a shooter or a slasher.

A Burks/DeMar backcourt would be brutal because defenses would just log the lane and sag off them on the perimeter thus making it next to impossible to use their most valuable asset which is getting into the lane and finishing.

Monta has Curry. Rajon has Pierce AND Shuttlesworth, Westbrook has the best pure scorer since Bird and also Harden. Point is when you have one guy who is adept at getting in the lane but can't shoot you need someone on the perimeter to open up the lane for that player to be effective. Two guys that can't shoot make it near impossible unless they are Hall of Famers.

But ya you owned me... :crazy:


You just proved my original point smartass. Remember when you decided to argue against me saying:

I know we're talking about another level of players here, but look at Miami. Their two best shooters can't throw a pebble in an ocean, but when surrounded by shooters (who actually hit shots) it's pretty effective. The way I see it, we won't be paying 3 guys max dollars trying to fill out our roster with washed up scrubs so we're we'd be ahead of the curb! :D
?

Thanks for trying though :thumbsup:
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1017 » by RINSE » Wed May 18, 2011 7:27 pm

Bankai wrote:
Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:We would definitely need a guy like Gallinari, or some ace shooter if we plan on rolling with that lineup.

We have a Gallinari, his name is Kleiza. But that would depend if people around here would actually want Kleiza to play.


Kleiza wishes he could be half the shooter that Gallo is.

It's not even close, really.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1018 » by Silk Wilkes » Wed May 18, 2011 7:29 pm

RINSE wrote:
Bankai wrote:
Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:We would definitely need a guy like Gallinari, or some ace shooter if we plan on rolling with that lineup.

We have a Gallinari, his name is Kleiza. But that would depend if people around here would actually want Kleiza to play.


Kleiza wishes he could be half the shooter that Gallo is.

It's not even close, really.


Yea, Kleiza's not Gallinari by any stretch. We wouldn't need guys like Kapono either though, they have to be able to create a bit. Someone like Jamal Crawford or JR Smith, but then you get into the whole chucker debate.
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1019 » by bboyskinnylegs » Wed May 18, 2011 7:30 pm

Bankai wrote:
Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:We would definitely need a guy like Gallinari, or some ace shooter if we plan on rolling with that lineup.

We have a Gallinari, his name is Kleiza. But that would depend if people around here would actually want Kleiza to play.

There is a HUGE difference between Gallinari and Kleiza. Gallinari had a 60.0%/58.7% TS% in NY/DEN. He gets fouled like a big-- #5 in the entire league in FTA/FGA at 0.77. He's just a great pure scorer that can get to the line, hit 3's, and overall just be a very effective, efficient scorer at the 3. And looking at his 18.5 and 20.6% usage, he doesn't need to dominate the ball to be effective either.

Kleiza on the other hand has a pitiful 50.2% TS%. Danilo has a better assist rate and turnover rate than Kleiza as well, and a better 15.7 PER vs. Kleiza's 10.1.

Him and DeMar would be an ideal fit imo, if there was some way we could trade Bargs for Gallinari (maybe Gallo+(Harrington/Birdman/Mozgov for Bargs (+J.Johnson, if needed)?) I'd be all over that.

Biyombo
Davis
Gallinari
DeMar
Bayless
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Re: Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread, Part 8 

Post#1020 » by ty123 » Wed May 18, 2011 7:31 pm

Just grab Kemba Walker or trade the pick for something next year. If Kemba busts, we can go after Kabono next year.

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