Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[AKfanatic]

Bulls need to contact Denver to try and pair Jimmy with one of them.... I fully expect something big to happen this deadline I don't see them standing pat. To me they either add serious talent to Jimmy or blow it up but I'd be shocked with status quo.

I wouldn't be shocked to see the Bulls move a player or two for an obvious upgrade. That said, I expect to see them stand pat or make a minor move and use the summer to make their push at bringing in players. This season was always destined to be a try-out season for every guy on the roster. Even Jimmy was destined to need to show the FO exactly what he is this season.

With Jimmy proving he can carry the load and put a team on his back, the FO will look to find a couple better fitting starters (center and point guard) and build their new bench mob in the off-season.


Of course if trades that are clear upgrades or that add "flexibility" for the team this off-season present themselves, moves would be made.

Bulls only have around 30 mil this summer so they need to do more than just wait and use that money. That's 30 mil to fill PF and PG.

Yeah and that 30 mil would need to go into shoring up the bench as well. But, that could still be accomplished in the offseason by moving a player or three if deals present themselves.

I'm hopeful that one or two moves happen near the deadline, but doubtful we find anything that does much more than add to flexibility going into the offseason.

[MalagaBulls]

I wouldn't be shocked to see the Bulls move a player or two for an obvious upgrade. That said, I expect to see them stand pat or make a minor move and use the summer to make their push at bringing in players. This season was always destined to be a try-out season for every guy on the roster. Even Jimmy was destined to need to show the FO exactly what he is this season.

With Jimmy proving he can carry the load and put a team on his back, the FO will look to find a couple better fitting starters (center and point guard) and build their new bench mob in the off-season.


Of course if trades that are clear upgrades or that add "flexibility" for the team this off-season present themselves, moves would be made.

Bulls only have around 30 mil this summer so they need to do more than just wait and use that money. That's 30 mil to fill PF and PG.

Yeah and that 30 mil would need to go into shoring up the bench as well. But, that could still be accomplished in the offseason by moving a player or three if deals present themselves.

I'm hopeful that one or two moves happen near the deadline, but doubtful we find anything that does much more than add to flexibility going into the offseason.

So if this is really a transition or "evaluation" season what is the best acceptable outcome to management say from an ownership level? Is it to just squeak inot the playoffs and maybe win one round to get some sort of revenue? I mean what is the actual roadmap?

[Jeffster81]

Of course the Bulls are not shopping Butler, they absolutely love being stuck in neutral. Not good enough to be a contender, but not bad enough to be in contention to drafting elite talent. Apathy at it's finest.

Keeping Butler isn't the Bulls' problem, it's the inability to draft the right players. You can cry about being "stuck in neutral" all you want, but as long as LeBron is in the East, the Bulls are going to struggle.

Of course Butler isn't the problem, never said he was. I am not crying, I am bemoaning the fact that the Bulls do not have the stones to make the moves needed to get in Lebron's face. The Bulls do not need to make it easier for the him and that is what they have done.

[Ralphb07]

I wouldn't be shocked to see the Bulls move a player or two for an obvious upgrade. That said, I expect to see them stand pat or make a minor move and use the summer to make their push at bringing in players. This season was always destined to be a try-out season for every guy on the roster. Even Jimmy was destined to need to show the FO exactly what he is this season.

With Jimmy proving he can carry the load and put a team on his back, the FO will look to find a couple better fitting starters (center and point guard) and build their new bench mob in the off-season.


Of course if trades that are clear upgrades or that add "flexibility" for the team this off-season present themselves, moves would be made.

Bulls only have around 30 mil this summer so they need to do more than just wait and use that money. That's 30 mil to fill PF and PG.

Yeah and that 30 mil would need to go into shoring up the bench as well. But, that could still be accomplished in the offseason by moving a player or three if deals present themselves.

I'm hopeful that one or two moves happen near the deadline, but doubtful we find anything that does much more than add to flexibility going into the offseason.

Come the summer 2 of their better trade chips won't be tradeable in Niko and Taj. Also with how they need to play they don't need RoLo who they can move to preserve the cap space... I think it's asking a lot of fans to expect them to solve everything with the cap space and I think they know they need to make moves before then

[MrSparkle]

Agreed -- it'd really stupid standing pat.

[MalagaBulls]

Bulls only have around 30 mil this summer so they need to do more than just wait and use that money. That's 30 mil to fill PF and PG.

Yeah and that 30 mil would need to go into shoring up the bench as well. But, that could still be accomplished in the offseason by moving a player or three if deals present themselves.

I'm hopeful that one or two moves happen near the deadline, but doubtful we find anything that does much more than add to flexibility going into the offseason.

Come the summer 2 of their better trade chips won't be tradeable in Niko and Taj. Also with how they need to play they don't need RoLo who they can move to preserve the cap space... I think it's asking a lot of fans to expect them to be able solve everything with the cap space and I think they know they need to do thing before then

Each deadline trade candidate you mention Ralph has appeals and warts.
1. Taj - He is really as consistent and hard working as you can get for a 4/5 but cannot play as a stretch 4 which most team seem to covet. He makes up for that by playing good hardnosed D and often rebounding well. He might fetch a lower 1st but I don't see anything more as a rental.
2. Niko - What do I say that hasn't been said already. He came in with a workd of talent but just has not lived up to the hype. He can get hot and sink 3's at a good clip and has a good stretch floor game plus he can penetrate when motivated. He is still making boneheaded mistakes but maybe a change of pace will be good for him. What do you get in return? I don't know.

In either case we have to bring in matching salary IIRC.

[bulliedog8]

Pg=Patty Mills at 4/60

MOVE TAJ FOR ROSSSSSS before the deadline.
Trade Lopez for Hibbert, Hawes and hornets 1st
Then get Nerlens in the offseason at 4/80 and hope the 76ers dont match

Patty-grant
Butler-wade
Ross-mcdermott
Mirotic (re-signed too)--portis
Noel-felicio

ECFs ceiling and a better team for butler

[Clint Eastwood]

Pg=Patty Mills at 4/60

MOVE TAJ FOR ROSSSSSS before the deadline.
Trade Lopez for Hibbert, Hawes and hornets 1st
Then get Nerlens in the offseason at 4/80 and hope the 76ers dont match

Patty-grant
Butler-wade
Ross-mcdermott
Mirotic (re-signed too)--portis
Noel-felicio

ECFs ceiling and a better team for butler

If this is the bulls plan, i will get rid of league pass. Yuck!

[Ralphb07]

Yeah and that 30 mil would need to go into shoring up the bench as well. But, that could still be accomplished in the offseason by moving a player or three if deals present themselves.

I'm hopeful that one or two moves happen near the deadline, but doubtful we find anything that does much more than add to flexibility going into the offseason.

Come the summer 2 of their better trade chips won't be tradeable in Niko and Taj. Also with how they need to play they don't need RoLo who they can move to preserve the cap space... I think it's asking a lot of fans to expect them to be able solve everything with the cap space and I think they know they need to do thing before then

Each deadline trade candidate you mention Ralph has appeals and warts.
1. Taj - He is really as consistent and hard working as you can get for a 4/5 but cannot play as a stretch 4 which most team seem to covet. He makes up for that by playing good hardnosed D and often rebounding well. He might fetch a lower 1st but I don't see anything more as a rental.
2. Niko - What do I say that hasn't been said already. He came in with a workd of talent but just has not lived up to the hype. He can get hot and sink 3's at a good clip and has a good stretch floor game plus he can penetrate when motivated. He is still making boneheaded mistakes but maybe a change of pace will be good for him. What do you get in return? I don't know.

In either case we have to bring in matching salary IIRC.

Yes you bring up matching salary but let's use Toronto for example. Patterson and their 1st for Taj I believe works... All 29 other teams have expiring players to make trades work...

[bulliedog8]

Pg=Patty Mills at 4/60

MOVE TAJ FOR ROSSSSSS before the deadline.
Trade Lopez for Hibbert, Hawes and hornets 1st
Then get Nerlens in the offseason at 4/80 and hope the 76ers dont match

Patty-grant
Butler-wade
Ross-mcdermott
Mirotic (re-signed too)--portis
Noel-felicio

ECFs ceiling and a better team for butler

If this is the bulls plan, i will get rid of league pass. Yuck!

You dont want a 3 east seed 50-54 win team that has a ecfs ceiling?

Edit: Patty 42% 3 shooter. Ross 39% 3 shooter. Nerlens rim protecter athletic center that can run. Mirotic stretch 4 that really isnt AS GOOD a shooter as people make him out to be but still a little bit of a 3 threat.

Butler would be harden esque with that team. Look what he is doing now with mcdermott and mirotic instead of rondo out there.

[greenl]

Pg=Patty Mills at 4/60

MOVE TAJ FOR ROSSSSSS before the deadline.
Trade Lopez for Hibbert, Hawes and hornets 1st
Then get Nerlens in the offseason at 4/80 and hope the 76ers dont match

Patty-grant
Butler-wade
Ross-mcdermott
Mirotic (re-signed too)--portis
Noel-felicio

ECFs ceiling and a better team for butler

If this is the bulls plan, i will get rid of league pass. Yuck!

You dont want a 3 east seed 50-54 win team that has a ecfs ceiling?

Edit: Patty 42% 3 shooter. Ross 39% 3 shooter. Nerlens rim protecter athletic center that can run. Mirotic stretch 4 that really isnt AS GOOD a shooter as people make him out to be but still a little bit of a 3 threat.

Butler would be harden esque with that team. Look what he is doing now with mcdermott and mirotic instead of rondo out there.

I actually like this plan- might prefer George Hill to Mills- but the concept is on point.

[kingkirk]

How many of those players were legit #1 options on a championship team?

-LeBron? Absolutely.
-Orlando got to an NBA Finals with Dwight as the best player.
-Rose could've been, but we'll never know.

And that's it.

I don't understand why this needs to be the baseline, other than the anti-tankers continually perpetuating the thought that tanking doesn't work.

Considering very few players ever win a title as the lead guy, of course the list of players drafted who lead teams to titles is going to be a small list.

So let's say the Bulls tank for 3 years and in Year 4 they end up with a John Wall type player. Would anyone consider them to be in a better position to contend? I wouldn't. Wall is probably a Jimmy Butler-level player.

If the Bulls tank for 4 years and only walk away with one all star level guy, then they failed to execute the plan.

If you're tanking for four years, you should, at minimum, have four cracks at a high pick. If only one turns out to be a good player, that's bad.

But very few teams actually try tanking for that long. After one or two seasons, they try signing mediocre free agents to get back to 45 wins as quick as possible.

So again, I don't think what you're proposing here is realistic for a team with good management.

[Rerisen]

The NBA has major problems if tanking for 4 years is good management and if the problem with most rebuilds is that they don't try to lose purposely for long enough. There is franchise value and attendance to worry about, you are going to lose many casual fans being irrelevant for 4 years. This is not a realistic or smart plan outside of running a franchise mode in a video game and controlling all 30 teams. 4 years of sucking is a massive opportunity cost, and if you do for that long, I would say its a definite fail unless you do get an MJ or Shaq, who then leads you to multiple titles down the line, to recoup your financial losses and brand value.

[Red Larrivee]

I don't understand why this needs to be the baseline, other than the anti-tankers continually perpetuating the thought that tanking doesn't work.

Considering very few players ever win a title as the lead guy, of course the list of players drafted who lead teams to titles is going to be a small list.

Because it's the only way to justify an extended period of losing on the court and losing financially. You don't trade Jimmy Butler, tank for an extended period of time and wind up with the next...Jimmy Butler or worse. There's no progress there. You took 6 steps back to take 6 steps forward.

I think Butler is a 2nd-tier star right now. So if it was done, you have to get a 1st tier star.

[Rerisen]

I don't understand why this needs to be the baseline, other than the anti-tankers continually perpetuating the thought that tanking doesn't work.

Considering very few players ever win a title as the lead guy, of course the list of players drafted who lead teams to titles is going to be a small list.

Because it's the only way to justify an extended period of losing on the court and losing financially. You don't trade Jimmy Butler, tank for an extended period of time and wind up with the next...Jimmy Butler or worse. There's no progress there. You took 6 steps back to take 6 steps forward.

I think Butler is a 2nd-tier star right now. So if it was done, you have to get a 1st tier star.

Whether he is 2nd or 1st, any given year I don't think there are on average more than 5 guys better than what Butler is doing right now. And considering its mostly the same guys each year, and that those same guys tend to have 12-15 year careers, can kind of project that a player definitively better than Butler probably comes into the league once every 3 years. Then probably every year you get a guy, or two guys, roughly as good. But as you say, just getting another Jimmy, losing 3-4 years to get him, then waiting 3 more for him to get as good as Butler, is actually a massive fail. Odds look bleak.

[Mech Engineer]

The NBA has major problems if tanking for 4 years is good management and if the problem with most rebuilds is that they don't try to lose purposely for long enough. There is franchise value and attendance to worry about, you are going to lose many casual fans being irrelevant for 4 years. This is not a realistic or smart plan outside of running a franchise mode in a video game and controlling all 30 teams. 4 years of sucking is a massive opportunity cost, and if you do for that long, I would say its a definite fail unless you do get an MJ or Shaq, who then leads you to multiple titles down the line, to recoup your financial losses and brand value.

MJ was in a different era where great players didn't change teams so much nor was there a super-team concept nor the constant analysis of every small weakness off-court/on-court. I am not so sure if MJ would have stayed in Chicago if he was drafted in 2005 and was losing to Detroit even after 5-6 years. Even Shaq ran away because injuries happened to his co-stars like Penny.

It is just too long of a process to tank for 4-5 years developing a losing culture and expecting those some of those picks to develop into winning culture superstars in a couple of years while hoping no injuries happen. Golden State never really tanked and they were trying to win.

It all depends on how much GarPax understand Butler's game on what kind of support he needs/their vision with Butler as the top guy/the creativity they use to get the right pieces.

[Rerisen]

I think having a successful season with a deep playoff run has become kind of underrated. Were the 90s Jazz failures? Well they didn't win a title but their fans had a lot more fun nights than downer nights over the careers of Stockton and Malone.

Look how fondly we look back on 2011 for the most part, even though the last series ended painfully.

Winning the title is the ultimate goal, but at the same point, its a short lived celebration. They talk about you for a week, then attention turns to the draft, to Free Agency and soon people start discussing if you can repeat or who the contenders are the next season.

I just don't think you can look at a franchise as a binary title or bust choice. There are numerous ladder steps between that are very meaningfully different.

[kingkirk]

Because it's the only way to justify an extended period of losing on the court and losing financially. You don't trade Jimmy Butler, tank for an extended period of time and wind up with the next...Jimmy Butler or worse. There's no progress there. You took 6 steps back to take 6 steps forward.

I think Butler is a 2nd-tier star right now. So if it was done, you have to get a 1st tier star.

So to be clear, we can't justify the Thunder's run with Durant or Westbrook because they never lead their team to a title, despite years of winning games and deep post season runs?

Even if you don't use the Thunder example, but another team that can collect 2 all star level guys via the draft, to the extent that they become the Raptors, again, is that a bad thing?

It's not. Using absolutes like a top 2-3 pick needs to win a title to justify a tank is pointless. It's as insignificant as me saying trading or using free agency is pointless and stupid unless you can land Lebron James, Tim Duncan or someone similar.

And again, these hypotheticals you pose are 3-4 years of tanking turmoil only to walk away with one good player. You're painting a bad scenario, not necessarily the only scenario. That's my problem here.

I don't have a problem if the Bulls don't trade Butler and tank, so long as they build around him properly instead of pairing him with Wade, Rondo and Lopez. But to act like tanking as a general premise is terrible while ignoring the fact that the reason it makes sense is to land multiple guys, something the Bulls don't have, is weird to me.

[kingkirk]

I just don't think you can look at a franchise as a binary title or bust choice. There are numerous ladder steps between that are very meaningfully different.

I agree. But why is the anti-tank crowd looking at a tanking regime as binary to title or bust?

Bias, is why.

[transplant]

Whether he is 2nd or 1st (tier) any given year I don't think there are on average more than 5 guys better than what Butler is doing right now. And considering its mostly the same guys each year, and that those same guys tend to have 12-15 year careers, can kind of project that a player definitively better than Butler probably comes into the league once every 3 years.

This is a very smart post and ought to (though it won't) be sobering for the "Tank now!" clan. The Bulls have a top-10 player in Butler. The above post puts it as clearly as possible why you don't trade a Butler as part of a tank strategy.