Tom Thibodeau fired pt 2

[MrDollarBills]

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Agreed.

Keep it professional. Criticism and trashing someone are two different things.

[Capn'O]

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I'd never disregard Thibs' contributions. But he got in his own way. Change was needed. The breakup wasn't messy. We should be appreciative of that. Thibs '24 was a better coach than Thibs '25. Hard to believe Bryant had such an impact on Thibs.

That can't be understated. I'm really glad it never reached that point because it does seem like the rifts that happened elsewhere were starting to bubble up. It was a clean break.

[Clyde_Style]

What's crazy is if the Pacers didn't all of a sudden turn into the 2004 Pistons/2011 Mavs...

CARLIIIIIIIIIIIISLE!!!!!!!


**** man...

Watch on YouTube

[Clyde_Style]

Thibs as the head coach of a team with championship aspirations is an untenable situation. He's a "good coach", "great" even, in certain environments. When it comes to competing for a championship specifically - as in, no other goal, simply championship or bust - he's the bottom of the barrel, just about as bad as it gets. From what he's shown me over the course of his career as a head coach, any other option besides Thibs is a better option than Thibs [u]when you are legitimately in the competitive mix for a championship[_u].

To me, the indictment of the FO in this situation isn't not having a replacement ready to go, it's that they used another year of Brunson's prime with a guy that has definitively proven he's not a championship head coach. They kept Thibs past his expiration date and cost themselves a legitimate opportunity at the Finals/chip in a season that has proven to be a wide open as webs ever seen it.

Moving forward as quickly as they did after being eliminated is a necessary correction, not a mistake. To me, the mistake was letting it get this far. Anyone who passes a basic vetting about working with this roster in the context of winning a championship in today's day and age is an upgrade because it actually gives you a chance - even if it never happens. Yes, we might be Lloyd Christmas, but there are at least better non-zero odds with someone else besides Thibs at the helm at this stage of Leon's build.

It should have happened last summer. The timing of the Towns trade vis a vis the Thibs extension was unfortunate and I see how they wanted to give him the year after that. But we knew what the answer would be then.

Giving Thibs the extension was frankly stupid. Dolan can afford to eat the contract but it should have never come to that.

[Clyde_Style]

Also, trying to insinuate that Tom is autistic isn't funny. Just my worthless two cents.

Lots of people are on the spectrum and the variety of ways that manifests in each person is vast.

Saying he's on the spectrum is not bigotry or a vague insult. He does seem to be a person with extreme tunnel vision who is incapable of making decisions in real time while simultaneously being incapable of relating to the team outside of his core rotation. This is a sign of myopia, rigidity and a brittle mindset that can be found in people who are intensely focused and resistant to outside input. He is very challenged by the contexts in which an elite coach needs to be adaptable. I think he's somewhere on the spectrum.

[JayTWill]

Thibs as the head coach of a team with championship aspirations is an untenable situation. He's a "good coach", "great" even, in certain environments. When it comes to competing for a championship specifically - as in, no other goal, simply championship or bust - he's the bottom of the barrel, just about as bad as it gets. From what he's shown me over the course of his career as a head coach, any other option besides Thibs is a better option than Thibs [u]when you are legitimately in the competitive mix for a championship[_u].

To me, the indictment of the FO in this situation isn't not having a replacement ready to go, it's that they used another year of Brunson's prime with a guy that has definitively proven he's not a championship head coach. They kept Thibs past his expiration date and cost themselves a legitimate opportunity at the Finals/chip in a season that has proven to be a wide open as webs ever seen it.

Moving forward as quickly as they did after being eliminated is a necessary correction, not a mistake. To me, the mistake was letting it get this far. Anyone who passes a basic vetting about working with this roster in the context of winning a championship in today's day and age is an upgrade because it actually gives you a chance - even if it never happens. Yes, we might be Lloyd Christmas, but there are at least better non-zero odds with someone else besides Thibs at the helm at this stage of Leon's build.

It should have happened last summer. The timing of the Towns trade vis a vis the Thibs extension was unfortunate and I see how they wanted to give him the year after that. But we knew what the answer would be then.

Losing to Indiana last year wasn't Thibs fault. We had a bunch of injuries. Mitch & Randle were out and Brunson was liimping mid way through the Indiana series and I think tere were more banged up players, but it's been a year. I stopped expectiing to win that series when Brunson got hurt and healthy, we 100% win against Indy last year. We were up 3-1.

This year, Indy was really good. I don't think that was entirely Thibs fault either, indy having a really good team, perfectly gelled and a really good coach, though he was out-coached but Indy had advantages this year. A deeper team. better 3 pt shooters. More athletic and able to take advantage by being so good at passing.

I'm not saying you're wrong on Thibs, because you're not, but last year wasn't his fault and adding 2 key players, keeping the same coach was a sensible decision.

I don't know where NY goes from here. They've got a bunch of talent but it's not the most balanced roster. It's in Leon's hands now.

One of the things that obviously stood out in the losses to the Pacers the last 2 years was the difference in play styles. I feel like Thibs could have had the exact same roster as the Pacers and he would have used them completely differently. I could see Thibs shortening their rotation, certain guys playing heavier minutes with less energy and Haliburton being asked to carry a bigger scoring load in an offense with less movement.

Thibs and Carlisle are both older coaches that have been around the league for a while. This is a quote from a recent article about Carlisle

"One thing you can say about Rick is he coaches his talent," Haralabos Voulgaris, the Mavs director of quantitative research and development from 2018 to 2021, told ESPN. "His system is whatever maximizes the talent that he has. He understands that the game is changing and he has to always keep on changing and learning and adapting and growing.

"It's not many older coaches that have had that mentality, especially ones that had success when they were younger."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/45493117/how-rick-carlisle-impacts-tyrese-haliburton-indiana-pacers

The quote almost perfectly describes one of the biggest differences between Carlisle and Thibs as a coach imo and it was one of the main reasons I have been ready to move on from Thibs for a while. The roster has its flaws but I feel like changing the roster without changing the coach was still going to lead to a similar product on the floor for better or worse.

[Adelheid]

Thibs as the head coach of a team with championship aspirations is an untenable situation. He's a "good coach", "great" even, in certain environments. When it comes to competing for a championship specifically - as in, no other goal, simply championship or bust - he's the bottom of the barrel, just about as bad as it gets. From what he's shown me over the course of his career as a head coach, any other option besides Thibs is a better option than Thibs [u]when you are legitimately in the competitive mix for a championship[_u].

To me, the indictment of the FO in this situation isn't not having a replacement ready to go, it's that they used another year of Brunson's prime with a guy that has definitively proven he's not a championship head coach. They kept Thibs past his expiration date and cost themselves a legitimate opportunity at the Finals/chip in a season that has proven to be a wide open as webs ever seen it.

Moving forward as quickly as they did after being eliminated is a necessary correction, not a mistake. To me, the mistake was letting it get this far. Anyone who passes a basic vetting about working with this roster in the context of winning a championship in today's day and age is an upgrade because it actually gives you a chance - even if it never happens. Yes, we might be Lloyd Christmas, but there are at least better non-zero odds with someone else besides Thibs at the helm at this stage of Leon's build.

It should have happened last summer. The timing of the Towns trade vis a vis the Thibs extension was unfortunate and I see how they wanted to give him the year after that. But we knew what the answer would be then.

Giving Thibs the extension was frankly stupid. Dolan can afford to eat the contract but it should have never come to that.

i disagree, clyde. Tom deserves that much, for leading the knicks to a conference finals after a drought spanning decades, not to mention successive postseason campaigns that alot of coaches before him, never even reached.

An optic could be presented and argued about that it wasnt a smart move by the organization timing wise; be that as it may, I would prefer that they did it this way to show that the knicks do know how to take good care of their familia rather than be cold and cunning

[thebuzzardman]

Also, trying to insinuate that Tom is autistic isn't funny. Just my worthless two cents.

I dunno....

Spoiler:

not now, buzzard. -JVG

[Clyde_Style]

It should have happened last summer. The timing of the Towns trade vis a vis the Thibs extension was unfortunate and I see how they wanted to give him the year after that. But we knew what the answer would be then.

Giving Thibs the extension was frankly stupid. Dolan can afford to eat the contract but it should have never come to that.

i disagree, clyde. Tom deserves that much, for leading the knicks to a conference finals after a drought spanning decades, not to mention successive postseason campaigns that alot of coaches before him, never even reached.

An optic could be presented and argued about that it wasnt a smart move by the organization timing wise; be that as it may, I would prefer that they did it this way to show that the knicks do know how to take good care of their familia rather than be cold and cunning

Put down your violin and stop lecturing people to show respect for the great Thibs who rebuilt the organization from the ashes.

I DON'T CARE

He's a completely washed up, out of touch coach who was so out of his depth during the playoffs that only our very talented starters were able to consistently mask his vast deficiencies as a coach with multiple insane comeback rallies that got them as far as they got in the playoffs.

Nah, Thibs sucks.

My opinion. You've got yours.

As far as my statement about him being on the spectrum, I gave my reason. He has extreme tunnel vision and not in a good way at all, but in a completely dysfunctional way that doesn't serve him well as a coach. He's a deer in the headlights during games because his brain simply does not process the game and make meaningful adjustments on the fly which is exactly what a competent NBA coach is supposed to do. Thibs is barely competent most of the time and he's completely awful when it matters most.

So there. He's an organization builder, blah blah blah. OK thank you Thibs, have a good life. Thanks for the hard work, because I know you probably did work very hard even if not effectively most of the time.

I swear to god, now people want to be politically correct about criticizing what a bad job he did. I'm not the one who needs to give it a rest

[3toheadmelo]

Also, trying to insinuate that Tom is autistic isn't funny. Just my worthless two cents.

That sht lame as hell and real insensitive. I know people who are on the spectrum and the stuff they go through on a daily basis is really awful and I wish people were more aware about autism. To label someone autistic from by sitting behind their computer because you hate them is weird as **** . It really disgusts me when people be diagnosing others with disorders from a computer when they don’t like them. Like are you forreal.

[TheGreenArrow]

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Bt firing back sand spitting facts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[3toheadmelo]

I won’t slander Josh hart again

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[Luv those Knicks]

One of the things that obviously stood out in the losses to the Pacers the last 2 years was the difference in play styles. I feel like Thibs could have had the exact same roster as the Pacers and he would have used them completely differently. I could see Thibs shortening their rotation, certain guys playing heavier minutes with less energy and Haliburton being asked to carry a bigger scoring load in an offense with less movement.

Thibs and Carlisle are both older coaches that have been around the league for a while. This is a quote from a recent article about Carlisle

"One thing you can say about Rick is he coaches his talent," Haralabos Voulgaris, the Mavs director of quantitative research and development from 2018 to 2021, told ESPN. "His system is whatever maximizes the talent that he has. He understands that the game is changing and he has to always keep on changing and learning and adapting and growing.

"It's not many older coaches that have had that mentality, especially ones that had success when they were younger."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/45493117/how-rick-carlisle-impacts-tyrese-haliburton-indiana-pacers

The quote almost perfectly describes one of the biggest differences between Carlisle and Thibs as a coach imo and it was one of the main reasons I have been ready to move on from Thibs for a while. The roster has its flaws but I feel like changing the roster without changing the coach was still going to lead to a similar product on the floor for better or worse.

You make some solid points and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Giving Thibs the extension was frankly stupid. Dolan can afford to eat the contract but it should have never come to that.

i disagree, clyde. Tom deserves that much, for leading the knicks to a conference finals after a drought spanning decades, not to mention successive postseason campaigns that alot of coaches before him, never even reached.

An optic could be presented and argued about that it wasnt a smart move by the organization timing wise; be that as it may, I would prefer that they did it this way to show that the knicks do know how to take good care of their familia rather than be cold and cunning

Put down your violin and stop lecturing people to show respect for the great Thibs who rebuilt the organization from the ashes.

I DON'T CARE

He's a completely washed up, out of touch coach who was so out of his depth during the playoffs that only our very talented starters were able to consistently mask his vast deficiencies as a coach with multiple insane comeback rallies that got them as far as they got in the playoffs.

Nah, Thibs sucks.

My opinion. You've got yours.

As far as my statement about him being on the spectrum, I gave my reason. He has extreme tunnel vision and not in a good way at all, but in a completely dysfunctional way that doesn't serve him well as a coach. He's a deer in the headlights during games because his brain simply does not process the game and make meaningful adjustments on the fly which is exactly what a competent NBA coach is supposed to do. Thibs is barely competent most of the time and he's completely awful when it matters most.

So there. He's an organization builder, blah blah blah. OK thank you Thibs, have a good life. Thanks for the hard work, because I know you probably did work very hard even if not effectively most of the time.

I swear to god, now people want to be politically correct about criticizing what a bad job he did. I'm not the one who needs to give it a rest

Adelheid is one of the most ardent of your fellow thibs critics. but you want to go ham on them because... they disagreed with you? no one lectured you on anything. no one tried to govern your behavior.

but while we're on the subject, we absolutely need to govern your behavior.

not only did you needlessly confront Adelheid here when you could have just matched their respectful tone. you then found a way to have an unrelated, unprompted side conversation about your own autism cracks.

one might actually believe your defense that you weren't using autism spectrum as an insult to be sincere if it didn't immediately follow you dehumanizing thibs the way you have for years now. then after saying there's nothing wrong with diagnosing strangers autistic, you exclusively use said diagnosis to allude to things you consider to be negative traits and behaviors -- reasons for losing one's job. as has been mentioned, your keyboard diagnosis to these ends is gravely offensive and harmful. it's also insulting, ableist, and unwelcome on this forum.

your diagnosis protocol (myopic, rigid, "brittle mindset") sounds a lot like some posters i have to read on a daily basis. and it would be wrong to insinuate that those posters are on the autism spectrum. and even if they are, that's something they should have the agency to speak on for themselves should they choose.

you should have kept all that to yourself. then you shouldn't have doubled and tripled down. you are indeed the one who needs to give it a rest.

[Jeff Van Gully]

to be clear, keyboard diagnosis of autism is insulting and inherently ableist. this goes against forum guidelines and will not be permitted.

[Clyde_Style]

i disagree, clyde. Tom deserves that much, for leading the knicks to a conference finals after a drought spanning decades, not to mention successive postseason campaigns that alot of coaches before him, never even reached.

An optic could be presented and argued about that it wasnt a smart move by the organization timing wise; be that as it may, I would prefer that they did it this way to show that the knicks do know how to take good care of their familia rather than be cold and cunning

Put down your violin and stop lecturing people to show respect for the great Thibs who rebuilt the organization from the ashes.

I DON'T CARE

He's a completely washed up, out of touch coach who was so out of his depth during the playoffs that only our very talented starters were able to consistently mask his vast deficiencies as a coach with multiple insane comeback rallies that got them as far as they got in the playoffs.

Nah, Thibs sucks.

My opinion. You've got yours.

As far as my statement about him being on the spectrum, I gave my reason. He has extreme tunnel vision and not in a good way at all, but in a completely dysfunctional way that doesn't serve him well as a coach. He's a deer in the headlights during games because his brain simply does not process the game and make meaningful adjustments on the fly which is exactly what a competent NBA coach is supposed to do. Thibs is barely competent most of the time and he's completely awful when it matters most.

So there. He's an organization builder, blah blah blah. OK thank you Thibs, have a good life. Thanks for the hard work, because I know you probably did work very hard even if not effectively most of the time.

I swear to god, now people want to be politically correct about criticizing what a bad job he did. I'm not the one who needs to give it a rest

Adelheid is one of the most ardent of your fellow thibs critics. but you want to go ham on them because... they disagreed with you? no one lectured you on anything. no one tried to govern your behavior.

but while we're on the subject, we absolutely need to govern your behavior.

not only did you needlessly confront Adelheid here when you could have just matched their respectful tone. you then found a way to have an unrelated, unprompted side conversation about your own autism cracks.

one might actually believe your defense that you weren't using autism spectrum as an insult to be sincere if it didn't immediately follow you dehumanizing thibs the way you have for years now. then after saying there's nothing wrong with diagnosing strangers autistic, you exclusively use said diagnosis to allude to things you consider to be negative traits and behaviors -- reasons for losing one's job. as has been mentioned, your keyboard diagnosis to these ends is gravely offensive and harmful. it's also insulting, ableist, and unwelcome on this forum.

your diagnosis protocol (myopic, rigid, "brittle mindset") sounds a lot like some posters i have to read on a daily basis. and it would be wrong to insinuate that those posters are on the autism spectrum. and even if they are, that's something they should have the agency to speak on for themselves should they choose.

you should have kept all that to yourself. then you shouldn't have doubled and tripled down. you are indeed the one who needs to give it a rest.

I work with people on the spectrum and they can do various things, but some things they cannot do because of how they are wired. I don't have any problems with them and they are not coaching a professional basketball team either.

If we call Thibs narrow-minded, pigheaded, stubborn, aloof, disconnected, myopic, rigid, inflexible it's OK, but as soon as we associate it with some aspect of the human condition it becomes hate speech? It is not Jeff. It may not seem like a logical connection to make to you, but he strikes me as I said.

If someone hated the way he coached and they are glad he's gone they should not be made to conform to some notion of civility that requires us to honor Thibs for his years of service. Hating to watch basketball coached by Thibs and wondering if his flaws as a coach may be attributable to his wiring is not hating on him for his wiring, but wanting him gone for being inadequate at the job. Making that connection is not hate speech.

Not sure how to relate to people here talking about women on here as bitches and hoes, but now saying someone may be on the spectrum is a worse offense. I asked Ad to put down their violin and not lecture me on how to view Thibs. That was hardly a full blown attack and I am sorry if I offended them as I have no beef with them. Anyway, they are your rules now even if I find this line in the sand arbitrary. It is what it is; Inshallah.

[Clyde_Style]

It should have happened last summer. The timing of the Towns trade vis a vis the Thibs extension was unfortunate and I see how they wanted to give him the year after that. But we knew what the answer would be then.

Giving Thibs the extension was frankly stupid. Dolan can afford to eat the contract but it should have never come to that.

i disagree, clyde. Tom deserves that much, for leading the knicks to a conference finals after a drought spanning decades, not to mention successive postseason campaigns that alot of coaches before him, never even reached.

An optic could be presented and argued about that it wasnt a smart move by the organization timing wise; be that as it may, I would prefer that they did it this way to show that the knicks do know how to take good care of their familia rather than be cold and cunning

Sorry if I offended you Adelheid. I have no ill will towards you. Be well

[Adelheid]

dont worry dude, Its ok...these are tumultuous times, everyone is anxious for different reasons - whether its waiting for a coaching verdict or the thibs firing.

We are all in this! *peace*

[Wildcat]

Thibs as the head coach of a team with championship aspirations is an untenable situation. He's a "good coach", "great" even, in certain environments. When it comes to competing for a championship specifically - as in, no other goal, simply championship or bust - he's the bottom of the barrel, just about as bad as it gets. From what he's shown me over the course of his career as a head coach, any other option besides Thibs is a better option than Thibs [u]when you are legitimately in the competitive mix for a championship[_u].

To me, the indictment of the FO in this situation isn't not having a replacement ready to go, it's that they used another year of Brunson's prime with a guy that has definitively proven he's not a championship head coach. They kept Thibs past his expiration date and cost themselves a legitimate opportunity at the Finals/chip in a season that has proven to be a wide open as webs ever seen it.

Moving forward as quickly as they did after being eliminated is a necessary correction, not a mistake. To me, the mistake was letting it get this far. Anyone who passes a basic vetting about working with this roster in the context of winning a championship in today's day and age is an upgrade because it actually gives you a chance - even if it never happens. Yes, we might be Lloyd Christmas, but there are at least better non-zero odds with someone else besides Thibs at the helm at this stage of Leon's build.

It should have happened last summer. The timing of the Towns trade vis a vis the Thibs extension was unfortunate and I see how they wanted to give him the year after that. But we knew what the answer would be then.

Giving Thibs the extension was frankly stupid. Dolan can afford to eat the contract but it should have never come to that.

Extension made sense. Johnnie left, Thibs stock was very high after last year's playoffs. I keep saying, '24 Thibs was better than '25.

[MrDollarBills]

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Bt firing back sand spitting facts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I gotta push back on BT here. The front office and ownership asked the players for their honest opinion in assessing Tom's performance.

Are they supposed to lie to save Tom's job or tell the truth to give leadership information to make a decision about the direction the team needs to go in?

We didn't practice or scrimmage. The team looked unprepared damn near against every team that we couldn't out talent our way to a close win. The bench was neglected all year. BT and all these other sports radio rage baiters were complaining after -every- game we got our asses beat by a playoff caliber team. Every single one. There were issues all season. Everyone saw this.

And now they're pretending like none of that happened because we made the ECF. Which is fine and all, but the way we went down to Indiana was pretty much a microcosm of how the Knicks played all season: We are a super talented team, but everything was very sloppy from Game 1 of 82, and the check finally came due against a team with a championship winning coach and good depth that allowed them to play at a pace that we couldn't keep up with.

Tom should be praised for what he did here. No one can take anything away from him. But what we saw this season was not sustainable.