Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread (Part 1)

[Rip2137]

Alright, time for this Suns fan to approach a very delicate topic. Obtaining Horford and Millsap. Ive been tinkering around with some ideas and want to get your guys take on this one.

Okafor/Morris/Morris to Philly, Young/Turner/Len/2 2014 1sts (Pacers and Wizards) to Atlanta, Horford/Millsap to Phoenix.

It allows you guys to start a rebuild with younger guys that have potential but havent quite reached it yet. Young is having a career year, and Turner has been playing some great ball for the past few months. Len did have surgery on both ankles before the season started, but our medical team is the best in the league and we wouldnt have drafted him if it was something major. We have been playing some great ball as well, thus allowing to bring Len around slowly and not rushing him like many other teams tend to do.

a starting 5 of Teague/Korver/Turner/Young/Len and a couple of 2014 1sts sound good?

You get 2 allstars for 3 bench players and 2 non lottery draft picks. Do you think that sounds good?

And I am a Suns fan first and foremost, but that is pretty ridiculous dude. I think its safe to say there is no player on the Suns that could get you Horford. The best players on the team are at positions we don't particularly need(although if you WANTED to move Dragic for Teague, I would welcomely take it.)

[Jamaaliver]

Okafor/Morris/Morris to Philly, Young/Turner/Len/2 2014 1sts (Pacers and Wizards) to Atlanta, Horford/Millsap to Phoenix

You at least have our attention. We're not hanging up the phone, but there'd need to be some greater tangible value coming back to ATL.

This trade would have been an easier sell had it been for the draft pick last summer as opposed to Alex Len who we don't particularly want, like or need.

On another note, congrats on the hire of Jeff Hornacek. He was always a bright guy, glad to see him doing so well as your coach.

Also, are the Morris twins kinda like the Wonder twins? They only work well when they are together? And also one of them is completely useless? (Form of...an Ice Menorah!!!)

[Jamaaliver]

So the wheels appear to coming off up in Cleveland. They have their most successful Head Coach in team history, a bevy of young lottery-selected talent and an owner committed to winning.

But they stink. Brown is failing, Bennett is garbage, Kyrie is pondering leaving and their GM is on the hot seat. They are basically the exact place our franchise was 7 years ago. They need veteran leadership to turn that boat around before the whole thing sinks. Now is the time for one of them there BOLD moves.

What would we be willing to give up to acquire either Kyrie or Waiters?
Fans there are already clamoring for Horford and/or Millsap. We have drastically less talent on our roster today than them, but are light years ahead of them because our guys know how to play NBA basketball. Would we even be interested in Kyrie with Mack, Teague and Schroeder here? Anybody else on that roster worth inquiring about?

[azuresou1]

Kyrie seems like kind of an immature kid who should focus more on improving his defense than making Pepsi commercials, but he has tons of talent, and I think with the right organization around him he could grow. I'd definitely be interested in him.

Waiters I kind of like, but more as a sixth man. I wouldn't trade any major assets for him, like I would for Kyrie.

[theatlfan]

Can't see CLE dealing Kyrie for any package right now. He may be unhappy but he's also still on his rookie contract and CLE has another year+ before he's an RFA. I just can't see it.

Having said that, I could see any of their other top picks being put on the market - especially after the current GM is replaced. Not just Waiters, but Thompson, Bennett, Karasev, and maybe Zeller. The problem is that, under the current GM, the prices would be prohibitive. There's a lot of people pointing out Grant's drafts and the fact they've been horrid, but I get the feeling that there's some numbers that float around that could back that some of the picks aren't as bad as they seem to be, so Grant would be looking to prove that his picks aren't as terrible as they really are if he's dealing them. Still, get a new GM in without the attachments of the current regime to cut through the BS and that's when I could see some deals being struck...

[MaceCase]

Have to agree. As of right now you have to look well beyond just team and individual production because there's also the ego of ownership/front office and then marketability which in turn is related to cost effectiveness and control. If they move him they'd have to either get as big or a bigger marketable player in return or have one in tow through the draft or free agency. As now they may suck but they can still sell tickets and merchandise which is always a silver lining.

[Jamaaliver]

^Perhaps you guys are right regarding it being to early to acquire Kyrie. But teams like Cleveland, Charlotte, Utah have a difficult time attracting free agents because of the cities/areas they play in. Often the only recourse they have is to draft players and hope they stay. Or trade for them while they have years left on their contract.

It may not happen today, but after being burned by Lebron the way they were, I'd imagine they would take the Denver/Utah route and trade their young superstar before it becomes a major distraction.

If we call offering AL and change for Kyrie and some other players, they'd be remiss not to at least consider the offer. KI has value, but if he's not leading the team to victories, does it really matter?

[MaceCase]

The NBA is a business so.....making money matters even if it doesn't directly correlate with wins. Look at the inverse of Atlanta that wins yet hasn't had marketable players thus loses money.

Then like you said, small markets can't attract free agents so why would they give up a drafted player that they have complete control over for the next 2+ years? It's increasingly rare that players give up long term security to accept their 1 year qualifying offers in order to get out of a destination so if we want to be realistic, the Cavs control Kyrie for the next 5 years. Lebron, Deron, Dwight, Carmelo etc. are all poor examples because they all left or were traded at the end of their 2nd contracts not their rookie deals. That's 6+ years that they spent with their teams, it's a tad premature considering moving Kyrie before he's even completed his 3rd.

[Jamaaliver]

Time will tell. But don't teams make extra revenue for sellouts, nationally televised games and deep playoff runs?

Kyrie might sell jerseys, but if the team isn't selling out and is running in last place I'd have to think Horford on a more palatable contract leading a playoff team might help their bottom line over an injury prone, under achieveing player who gets lots of highlights on ESPN.

Again, you sell a stock at its highest value. Waiting till the last minute could drastically decrease what the team might garner in trade.

Another difference: Cavs haven't sniffed the playoffs in years and the GM's and coach's jobs could be at stake.

[Jamaaliver]

And to that end, this comes out:

The turmoil of the Cleveland Cavaliers' season is beginning to get worse, as players are pointing to Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters, along with an unhappiness with Mike Brown and his coaching staff.

“He’s acting like he doesn’t care,” said one unnamed player about Irving.

“It’s pretty much a mess,” one source close to the team said.

Two sources indicated that the Cavaliers' roster will likely face upheaval if the team doesn't turn around their situation quickly. Waiters is a possible trade candidate, while Irving will likely receive a max contract offer in the offseason.Via Jason Lloyd/Beacon Journal

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/231760/Cavaliers-Expected-To-Shake-Up-Roster-Before-Deadline

and we see more and more sentiments such as this:

As a cavs fan...

Fire Mike Brown, trade Kyrie for someone's newborn, arm, & a leg, then build around Dion.

If Kyrie doesn't sign an extension this summer, I predict the team will be in a mad dash to pawn him off to the highest bidder and avoid the drama they experienced with Lebron.

We need to be whispering in their ear expressing our desire to make a deal for Kyrie. Be proactive, Danny. Make a bold move and go after a young superstar before he hits his prime.

[Bucks2585]

What would Hawks fans think about a trade like this:

John Henson for Dennis Schroder and a 2014 1st(Whichever you end up with, IDK if you can technically trade it.)

With Henson for Schroder, its more of a prospect for prospect type deal. The Bucks have a glut of bigs that interrupt the playing time for everyone, but the guard positions are absolutely atrocious. Meanwhile, Schroder is regulated to a 3rd string role behind Teague and Mack, but he does have promise as does Henson, though Henson is showing more of that promise right now as a 12-8 PF/C player. With this deal, you fully commit to Teague and Mack at the PG spots and have a young, promising frontcourt player. With Henson, you get a unique, but versatile 3 man rotation at the PF and C spots between Henson, Horford, and Milsap. Milsap and Horford can match up with teams playing a small ball lineup, as both can shoot the ball and play the pick and pop game while being effective rebounders. Henson can come off the bench as a defensive big, play the role of a hustle player with incredible length and the ability to rebound. There is also the potential with Horford next year to line up with Milsap, Henson, and Horford at the 3-4-5 in a big lineup. Finally, Henson is one a cheap 3 year while Milsap is on a 2 year deal. If the team is unable to resign Milsap this go around in FA, the team could keep Henson and have a cheap replacement option for a year, likely commanding less money than Milsap would. But Henson is showing he can put up numbers in a non-starter role, and he provides a different look than Horford and Milsap do.

For the Bucks, as I said, we get a promising guard prospect along with a pick that is likely a late first since both Brooklyn and Atlanta seem to be bound for the playoffs. But as a part of the Bucks rebuild, they get a young prospect at a position that they actually need help at as well as the fact that their first round pick will likey be a Wiggins, Parker, or Embiid who all play the 3-4-5 positions, leaving PG a big hole after that first pick. Essentially, it adds potential for a quicker rebuild.

[BossHoggin]

And to that end, this comes out:

The turmoil of the Cleveland Cavaliers' season is beginning to get worse, as players are pointing to Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters, along with an unhappiness with Mike Brown and his coaching staff.

“He’s acting like he doesn’t care,” said one unnamed player about Irving.

“It’s pretty much a mess,” one source close to the team said.

Two sources indicated that the Cavaliers' roster will likely face upheaval if the team doesn't turn around their situation quickly. Waiters is a possible trade candidate, while Irving will likely receive a max contract offer in the offseason.Via Jason Lloyd/Beacon Journal

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/231760/Cavaliers-Expected-To-Shake-Up-Roster-Before-Deadline

and we see more and more sentiments such as this:

As a cavs fan...

Fire Mike Brown, trade Kyrie for someone's newborn, arm, & a leg, then build around Dion.

If Kyrie doesn't sign an extension this summer, I predict the team will be in a mad dash to pawn him off to the highest bidder and avoid the drama they experienced with Lebron.

We need to be whispering in their ear expressing our desire to make a deal for Kyrie. Be proactive, Danny. Make a bold move and go after a young superstar before he hits his prime.

problem is that you really don't have the pieces to get Irving.

[Jamaaliver]

problem is that [Hawks] really don't have the pieces to get Irving.

Fair enough....

What would Hawks fans think about a trade like this:

John Henson for Dennis Schroder and a 2014 1st(Whichever you end up with, IDK if you can technically trade it.)

Those two players straight up...probably.

But we don't think enough of Henson to essentially trade two first round picks for him. Schroeder's stock is pretty low in comparison to where it was last summer, but we're far from ready to give up on him already.

[MaceCase]

Time will tell. But don't teams make extra revenue for sellouts, nationally televised games and deep playoff runs?

Kyrie might sell jerseys, but if the team isn't selling out and is running in last place I'd have to think Horford on a more palatable contract leading a playoff team might help their bottom line over an injury prone, under achieveing player who gets lots of highlights on ESPN.

Again, you sell a stock at its highest value. Waiting till the last minute could drastically decrease what the team might garner in trade.

Another difference: Cavs haven't sniffed the playoffs in years and the GM's and coach's jobs could be at stake.

You don't get it.

The Cavs have greater attendance than the Hawks.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

According to Forbes their franchise is ranked 8 spots higher than the Hawks and valued at almost $100 million more with an actual operating profit rather than loss.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mli45ehe ... cavaliers/

They even receive more nationally televised games than the Hawks

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/8/6/459568 ... v-schedule


Yes, this is a small market team and yes, this is a team that hasn't even sniffed a playoffs yet alone a playoff race in 4 years yet from top to bottom they are regarded as greater than the Hawks franchise. You don't seem to recognize why the Hawks trudge on in pursuit of playoff mediocrity instead of rebuilding and that's highly due to the fact that they have to scrap together whatever extra income comes from a playoff run because the team can't make a profit or even offset its debts off of base revenue.

You sell a stock at it's highest, sure, but you don't sell a stock while it's still accumulating value by the fistful. Kyrie was just voted in to start an All Star game after all and you see a Cav fan mention selling Kyrie for a newborn, an arm and a leg.......and you think that that is a small price to pay? You think Al Horford and change equates to that? You think Irving will turn down a max extension? And then what, sign with another team? .......Only to watch the Cavs match a deal that would be less than the max that they could offer him. Nothing but win-wins across the board for the Cavs, not Kyrie (well besides becoming extremely rich).

There is no "last minute" apocalypse approaching for the Cavs considering that Kyrie is still over a season away from Restricted free agency. They will move heaven and earth first before they even attempt to consider moving their cash cow for anything less than another cash cow. The wiretap you quoted even said it...despite Kyrie being the crux of the problem they are still likely to give him a max extension and trade everyone else.

Your whole argument is in line with an UNrestricted free agent not a restricted one, you need to remember why Josh never played for the Grizzlies and why Jeffrey isn't a Buck. The rules just so happen to favor teams more than players at this stage of their careers.

[MaceCase]

What would Hawks fans think about a trade like this:

John Henson for Dennis Schroder and a 2014 1st(Whichever you end up with, IDK if you can technically trade it.)

With Henson for Schroder, its more of a prospect for prospect type deal. The Bucks have a glut of bigs that interrupt the playing time for everyone, but the guard positions are absolutely atrocious. Meanwhile, Schroder is regulated to a 3rd string role behind Teague and Mack, but he does have promise as does Henson, though Henson is showing more of that promise right now as a 12-8 PF/C player. With this deal, you fully commit to Teague and Mack at the PG spots and have a young, promising frontcourt player. With Henson, you get a unique, but versatile 3 man rotation at the PF and C spots between Henson, Horford, and Milsap. Milsap and Horford can match up with teams playing a small ball lineup, as both can shoot the ball and play the pick and pop game while being effective rebounders. Henson can come off the bench as a defensive big, play the role of a hustle player with incredible length and the ability to rebound. There is also the potential with Horford next year to line up with Milsap, Henson, and Horford at the 3-4-5 in a big lineup. Finally, Henson is one a cheap 3 year while Milsap is on a 2 year deal. If the team is unable to resign Milsap this go around in FA, the team could keep Henson and have a cheap replacement option for a year, likely commanding less money than Milsap would. But Henson is showing he can put up numbers in a non-starter role, and he provides a different look than Horford and Milsap do.

For the Bucks, as I said, we get a promising guard prospect along with a pick that is likely a late first since both Brooklyn and Atlanta seem to be bound for the playoffs. But as a part of the Bucks rebuild, they get a young prospect at a position that they actually need help at as well as the fact that their first round pick will likey be a Wiggins, Parker, or Embiid who all play the 3-4-5 positions, leaving PG a big hole after that first pick. Essentially, it adds potential for a quicker rebuild.

Asking for the first is just way too much although I don't see Schroder alone being moved either. The Hawks themselves have bigman prospects (Scott, Bebe, Muscala) to go along with 2 All Stars (Millsap, Horford) then a serviceable core of vets that can likely be refreshed yearly (Brand, Antic, Ayon).

Guard depth is more iffy as the growing sense with Teague getting matched was more asset retention (a reasonable sign and trade could have possibly netted him rather than a downright signing where the Hawks would have received nothing) and Shelvin Mack has developed out of nowhere. Contract wise, only Schroder and Teague are signed past next season (Shelvin with his current play could secure a more lucrative contract than the Hawks would be willing to pay for 3 PGs) so just because Schroder is 3rd on the depth chart now doesn't mean that that's where he will remain for the rest of his career.

Ferry has targeted SG, PF, PG and Cx2 in his first two drafts so I would have to imagine that he'd be looking for a SF in the upcoming one, maybe we should be discussing Antetokounmpo instead

[Jamaaliver]

<sigh>

Again, time will tell. I predict CLE will have a fire sale if they miss out on the playoffs this year. If Kyrie doesn't agree to an extension this summer, I predict Kyrie will be moved in the next 12 months.

Right or wrong, I stand by the prediction. No quantifiers. No apples to oranges.

TIME...will tell.

Cheese...and friggin' rice. Geez.

[Rip2137]

He didn't say anything like that. Stop being so oversensitive.

[MaceCase]

He didn't say anything like that. Stop being so oversensitive.

Now now, Rip. He's more than entitled to his opinion even if they aren't wholly substantiated. If he wants to believe that a team that can't attract stars would be entirely shortsighted enough to trade away their only young profitable star that they control for the very minimum of 2* seasons beyond this one simply because they missed the playoffs then fine. He stands to make a lot of money by taking the odds on that but I'll stay firmly on the side of "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".







*Ben Gordon is the only restricted free agent in memory that has ever willingly accepted a qualifying offer in order to become an unrestricted free agent. Under every other condition the Cavs will have the only opportunity to offer Kyrie a 5 year contract worth 25% of the cap and the right of first refusal should Kyrie turn down the offer and sign with another team.

[theatlfan]

Interesting article on Kyrie Irving by Brian Windhorst (link)

Some money quotes:

Irving is reaching a crucial point and he and his support system realize it. This summer the Cavs can offer him a contract extension. Between now and then Irving is going to have the most leverage he has had in his career to this point. It seems like he intends to use it.
...
"The key thing, whoever you are and wherever you are, you cannot wait," Gilbert said before last season. "The big lesson was if a player is not willing to extend, no matter who they are, no matter where they are playing, no matter what kind of season you had, you cannot risk going into a summer and having them leave."
...
If Irving doesn't sign [a max extension], well, Gilbert said it all. No matter who they are ... you cannot wait.

Now, much of the article acknowledges the rift is technically with the GM's inability to acquire players who are both good and complement Irving on he court and the coach's inability to get cohesion within the team. At this point, I think it'll be a foregone conclusion that both will be replaced before the draft, so CLE will have the off season to convince him that things are heading in the right direction. The new regime wouldn't put Kyrie on the market until he declines his extension and they know they can take it all the way until he signs a contract in RFA to find the right return for his services.

Before trading Kyrie, I'd guess that the new GM will be doing everything in his power to keep him in place. This means that anyone and everyone on the current roster is fair game if the return better complements him. I'd imagine that Waiters will be on the market by the draft. I'm curious who else CLE will be willing to deal... And what they'd be looking for. It won't be until after this rush to save Kyrie will (and assuming that fails) would CLE start taking offers for Kyrie.

[Jamaaliver]

Wholly unsubstantiated????

<sigh>

The Cavs have Irving signed through the 2014-15 season and because he would then be a restricted free agent, the team controls his rights through at least the '15-16 season. But that is misleading, as Irving's future will likely be determined this summer because of something team owner Dan Gilbert vowed back in 2012. Gilbert said he learned a major lesson from 2010 when he lost LeBron James, and that is to never let his franchise player get to free agency again. He said so himself.

Not just because they missed the playofs once. Moreso because they let this type of drama play out with the player in control once before. It did not end well.
Dan Gilbert is a prideful guy and a hot head. His GM is desperate to keep his job. Their fans have already begun an outcry to simply trade the kid for a king's ransom rather than let this movie play out again.

Even with restricted free agency in which the Cavs would have matching rights, Irving not signing that extension would apply extreme pressure to the team to act because it would be a no-confidence vote.

Forcing a young franchise player to stick around who clearly does not want to be there is a lose-lose proposition for everyone involved.

On top of that, because Irving was a top overall selection, his potential 2015-16 qualifying offer is a relatively (to rookies) hefty $9.19 million. Or he can make waves about not wanting to accept an extension this summer, which would encourage the team’s front office to pursue a trade over the summer.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/why-kyrie-irving-rumors-january-may-david-stern-183743221--nba.html