RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[HighFlyer23]

It was always a debate until media brainwashed fans to believe Jordan is a deified figure in basketball.

What would you know youngin'. Can you even legally drink yet? Everyone old enough to see MJ live know the real truth.

It was only a debate in the media, just as Kobe was.

It was never a real debate. You can use whatever language you want, but Jordan dominates the stats and achievements.

There's really no argument, especially when Lebron's had to form so many teams just to try and catch him with multiple
blemishes in between. He's never been on Jordan's level. Even the cross era players state as much.

If lebron and his posse didn't manufacture this debate nobody would ever even think about it

There simply isn't anything there to warrant it

[70sFan]

It was always a debate until media brainwashed fans to believe Jordan is a deified figure in basketball.

What would you know youngin'. Can you even legally drink yet? Everyone old enough to see MJ live know the real truth.

It was only a debate in the media, just as Kobe was.

It was never a real debate. You can use whatever language you want, but Jordan dominates the stats and achievements.

There's really no argument, especially when Lebron's had to form so many teams just to try and catch him with multiple
blemishes in between. He's never been on Jordan's level. Even the cross era players state as much.

It was always a real debate, until the media made MJ brand so massive that people started believing that MJ is demi-god that was far superior to any player before him or after. In reality, plenty of people argued that players like Russell, Wilt or Kareem were better, greater than him, before Jordan became such a massive media icon.

[bledredwine]

What would you know youngin'. Can you even legally drink yet? Everyone old enough to see MJ live know the real truth.

It was only a debate in the media, just as Kobe was.

It was never a real debate. You can use whatever language you want, but Jordan dominates the stats and achievements.

There's really no argument, especially when Lebron's had to form so many teams just to try and catch him with multiple
blemishes in between. He's never been on Jordan's level. Even the cross era players state as much.

It was always a real debate, until the media made MJ brand so massive that people started believing that MJ is demi-god that was far superior to any player before him or after. In reality, plenty of people argued that players like Russell, Wilt or Kareem were better, greater than him, before Jordan became such a massive media icon.

Media?

How about all of the players as well? Were they simply influenced by talking heads?

Where is KD, Dirk etc raving about Lebron the same way as legends like Magic, Bird, etc?

Larry Bird "God disguised as Michael Jordan"

Magic in the interview below "I was stunned. MJ is so incredible"

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

It was never a real debate. I remember when Kobe vs Lebron was the debate just in 2010, when Lebron was 7 years into the league, yet we're trying to compare him with Jordan, despite Jordan dominating the components aside from longevity?

They're still a hall of fame career apart despite Lebron playing for 21 seasons. It's over. Lebron's never reached that level, and he was lucky enough to play in the era of blown up triple double stats. Hell, we already have a player eclipsing Lebron statistically, as I predicted 10 years ago, by the way.

Lebron's had more flaws, more weak series where he was accountable (Jordan didn't have a single one), and has never reached the same level of dominance.

Examples of that dominance...

Jordan - single handedly has 19 of the top 100 game scores of all time. Lebron? 3.

7 of the top 10 playoff series scoring averages of all time belong to Jordan, the others? Players of prior eras when there were 30+% more possessions with the exception of Bernard King, and other than King, Jordan's are easily the most efficient so it wasn't some mere "volume" thing... it was Jordan dominating.

....and on that note, lets not pretend that scoring doesn't matter when Lebron fans go ape over him putting up big scoring numbers like his Raptors series. Meanwhile, when he has to do it in the finals (35 ppg) and is forced not to cherry pick, he averaged .397 from the field against Golden State.... another example of a lack of dominance when needed.

Then you have Jordan being higher ranked at his position than Lebron in all categories but assists, also taking better care of the ball, holding his teammates to a much higher standard in practices and in game, not taking plays off on defense like Lebron has constantly.

You put that all together and the debate looks silly as can be, just as the Kobe debate was. The Lebron debate exists.... to his fans. That's it. And since he's still around, they flood the NBA forums, just like Kobe fans did. They will eventually be less, just as Kobe fans are and ironically, I now love Kobe after those overhyping fans left and I watched more interviews of his training philosophy.

I can't say the same for Lebron as I believe he's had a negative impact on the competitiveness of the sport. Flops, teaming up, and so on. I can't take that guy seriously as a "GOAT" candidate at all, especially when you have Kareem and Wilt.... and even players like Luka/Jokic, doing basically what Lebron did, Jokic doing it at a higher level.

[70sFan]

It was only a debate in the media, just as Kobe was.

It was never a real debate. You can use whatever language you want, but Jordan dominates the stats and achievements.

There's really no argument, especially when Lebron's had to form so many teams just to try and catch him with multiple
blemishes in between. He's never been on Jordan's level. Even the cross era players state as much.

It was always a real debate, until the media made MJ brand so massive that people started believing that MJ is demi-god that was far superior to any player before him or after. In reality, plenty of people argued that players like Russell, Wilt or Kareem were better, greater than him, before Jordan became such a massive media icon.

Media?

How about all of the players as well? Were they simply influenced by talking heads?

Where is KD, Dirk etc raving about Lebron the same way as legends like Magic, Bird, etc?

Larry Bird "God disguised as Michael Jordan"

Magic in the interview below "I was stunned. MJ is so incredible"

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

It was never a real debate. I remember when Kobe vs Lebron was the debate just in 2010, when Lebron was 7 years into the league, yet we're trying to compare him with Jordan, despite Jordan dominating the components aside from longevity?

They're still a hall of fame career apart despite Lebron playing for 21 seasons. It's over. Lebron's never reached that level, and he was lucky enough to play in the era of blown up triple double stats. Hell, we already have a player eclipsing Lebron statistically, as I predicted 10 years ago, by the way.


Lebron's had more flaws, way more weak series where he was accountable, and has never reached the same level of dominance.

Jordan - single handedly has 19 of the top 100 game scores of all time. Lebron? 3.

7 of the top 10 playoff series scoring averages of all time... and lets not pretend that scoring doesn't matter when Lebron fans go ape over him putting up big scoring numbers like his Raptors series. Meanwhile, when he has to do it in the finals (35 ppg) and is forced not to cherry pick, he averaged .397 from the field against Golden State.... another example of a lack of dominance.

Then you have Jordan being higher ranked at his position than Lebron in all categories but assists, also taking better care of the ball, holding his teammates to a much higher standard in practices and in game, not taking plays off on defense like Lebron has constantly.

You put that all together and the debate looks silly as can be, just as the Kobe debate was. The Lebron debate exists.... to his fans. That's it. And since he's still around, they flood the NBA forums, just like Kobe fans did. They will eventually be less, just as Kobe fans are and ironically, I now love Kobe after those overhyping fans left and I watched more interviews of his training philosophy.

I can't say the same for Lebron as I believe he's had a negative impact on the competitiveness of the sport. Flops, teaming up, and so on. I can't take that guy seriously as a "GOAT" candidate at all, especially when you have Kareem and Wilt.... and even players like Luka/Jokic, doing basically what Lebron did, Jokic doing it at a higher level.

Do you have some kind of LeBron obsession? I never mentioned James in this thread.

[bledredwine]

It was always a real debate, until the media made MJ brand so massive that people started believing that MJ is demi-god that was far superior to any player before him or after. In reality, plenty of people argued that players like Russell, Wilt or Kareem were better, greater than him, before Jordan became such a massive media icon.

Media?

How about all of the players as well? Were they simply influenced by talking heads?

Where is KD, Dirk etc raving about Lebron the same way as legends like Magic, Bird, etc?

Larry Bird "God disguised as Michael Jordan"

Magic in the interview below "I was stunned. MJ is so incredible"

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

It was never a real debate. I remember when Kobe vs Lebron was the debate just in 2010, when Lebron was 7 years into the league, yet we're trying to compare him with Jordan, despite Jordan dominating the components aside from longevity?

They're still a hall of fame career apart despite Lebron playing for 21 seasons. It's over. Lebron's never reached that level, and he was lucky enough to play in the era of blown up triple double stats. Hell, we already have a player eclipsing Lebron statistically, as I predicted 10 years ago, by the way.


Lebron's had more flaws, way more weak series where he was accountable, and has never reached the same level of dominance.

Jordan - single handedly has 19 of the top 100 game scores of all time. Lebron? 3.

7 of the top 10 playoff series scoring averages of all time... and lets not pretend that scoring doesn't matter when Lebron fans go ape over him putting up big scoring numbers like his Raptors series. Meanwhile, when he has to do it in the finals (35 ppg) and is forced not to cherry pick, he averaged .397 from the field against Golden State.... another example of a lack of dominance.

Then you have Jordan being higher ranked at his position than Lebron in all categories but assists, also taking better care of the ball, holding his teammates to a much higher standard in practices and in game, not taking plays off on defense like Lebron has constantly.

You put that all together and the debate looks silly as can be, just as the Kobe debate was. The Lebron debate exists.... to his fans. That's it. And since he's still around, they flood the NBA forums, just like Kobe fans did. They will eventually be less, just as Kobe fans are and ironically, I now love Kobe after those overhyping fans left and I watched more interviews of his training philosophy.

I can't say the same for Lebron as I believe he's had a negative impact on the competitiveness of the sport. Flops, teaming up, and so on. I can't take that guy seriously as a "GOAT" candidate at all, especially when you have Kareem and Wilt.... and even players like Luka/Jokic, doing basically what Lebron did, Jokic doing it at a higher level.

Do you have some kind of LeBron obsession? I never mentioned James in this thread.

That's what literally every poster has been posting about in this thread other than you and maybe two others, as evidenced by the poll.

Regardless, I addressed your point right away. It's not just the media glorifying Jordan, it's the players, because they played against him. He was just that good, regardless if you are a MJ fan or not.

[70sFan]

Regardless, I addressed your point right away. It's not just the media glorifying Jordan, it's the players, because they played against him. He was just that good, regardless if you are a MJ fan or not.

No, plenty of players disagreed with Jordan being the GOAT "without any debate".

[DOT]

No, plenty of players disagreed with Jordan being the GOAT "without any debate".

"Just remember, when you played, they changed the rules to make it easier for you to dominate...when I played, they changed the rules to make it harder for me"

-Wilt Chamberlain to Michael Jordan

[bledredwine]

Regardless, I addressed your point right away. It's not just the media glorifying Jordan, it's the players, because they played against him. He was just that good, regardless if you are a MJ fan or not.

No, plenty of players disagreed with Jordan being the GOAT "without any debate".

But the majority of players and contemporaries stated they were “amazed” and he’s had far more praise than criticism. That’s part of the reason he has two three peats, wasn’t taken to a game six and has the highest respect of his greatest contemporaries. Any player you put him against doesn’t have as strong of a case, objectively speaking. That’s not idolizing, that’s saying hey, we haven’t seen the “next Jordan” yet.
Because we haven’t. I’m waiting eagerly.

He’s the player with the most bases covered and to a dominant degree. The next is Kareem. So you can claim media created it, but you see that’s obviously false. Jordan created it and players consistently testify to it.

It is also the adversity he faced in doing it. He wasn’t a quitter. He kept trying harder, getting teammates to try harder, was undeniably the most competitive (maybe Wilt or Russell is in that convo as well). That’s not idolization. This is all truth and player backed.

[70sFan]

But the majority of players and contemporaries stated they were “amazed” and he’s had far more praise than criticism.

Of course he has...? He's an amazing player, one of the best ever. I never denied that.

That’s part of the reason he has two three peats,

I personally prefer 8-peat.

wasn’t taken to a game six

What do you mean by that? Jordan was taken to a game six a lot of times.

Any player you put him against doesn’t have as strong of a case, objectively speaking. That’s not idolizing, that’s saying hey, we haven’t seen the “next Jordan” yet.
Because we haven’t. I’m waiting eagerly.

As I said before, Russell has much stronger case. You just don't accept that because you decided that you need to score a lot to be the GOAT.

He’s the player with the most bases covered and to a dominant degree. The next is Kareem. So you can claim media created it, but you see that’s obviously false. Jordan created it and players consistently testify to it.

Again, Russell has the best career in the NBA history. George Mikan has arguably as strong of a case as Jordan.

It is also the adversity he faced in doing it. He wasn’t a quitter.

He literally quit twice during his career, so I don't know why you try using this narrative.

was undeniably the most competitive (maybe Wilt or Russell is in that convo as well). That’s not idolization. This is all truth and player backed.

I see absolutely no reason to believe that Jordan was more competitive than Russell. I don't see any reason to put him higher than someone like Duncan, Bird or Magic in that regard. Again, using words like "undeniably" just proves my point here.

[WarriorGM]

Regardless, I addressed your point right away. It's not just the media glorifying Jordan, it's the players, because they played against him. He was just that good, regardless if you are a MJ fan or not.

No, plenty of players disagreed with Jordan being the GOAT "without any debate".

But the majority of players and contemporaries stated they were “amazed” and he’s had far more praise than criticism. That’s part of the reason he has two three peats, wasn’t taken to a game six and has the highest respect of his greatest contemporaries. Any player you put him against doesn’t have as strong of a case, objectively speaking. That’s not idolizing, that’s saying hey, we haven’t seen the “next Jordan” yet.
Because we haven’t. I’m waiting eagerly.

He’s the player with the most bases covered and to a dominant degree. The next is Kareem. So you can claim media created it, but you see that’s obviously false. Jordan created it and players consistently testify to it.

It is also the adversity he faced in doing it. He wasn’t a quitter. He kept trying harder, getting teammates to try harder, was undeniably the most competitive (maybe Wilt or Russell is in that convo as well). That’s not idolization. This is all truth and player backed.

You place a lot of emphasis on what other players say so I will note that when that is brought up the most distinguished players that are brought up as proof of that are Magic and Bird. Kareem though doesn't say that. Wilt doesn't say that. I don't recall Russell saying it. Jordan benefits greatly from the commercialization of the game and focus on individualism that has wrought. That ethos runs counter to the team based view that held stronger sway previously.

You're saying you're still waiting for the next Jordan. The next Jordan was Kobe. But if you're awaiting for the next player who is going to have the influence of Jordan that player isn't likely to look like Jordan at all.

[bledredwine]

But the majority of players and contemporaries stated they were “amazed” and he’s had far more praise than criticism.

Of course he has...? He's an amazing player, one of the best ever. I never denied that.

That’s part of the reason he has two three peats,

I personally prefer 8-peat.

wasn’t taken to a game six

What do you mean by that? Jordan was taken to a game six a lot of times.

Any player you put him against doesn’t have as strong of a case, objectively speaking. That’s not idolizing, that’s saying hey, we haven’t seen the “next Jordan” yet.
Because we haven’t. I’m waiting eagerly.

As I said before, Russell has much stronger case. You just don't accept that because you decided that you need to score a lot to be the GOAT.

He’s the player with the most bases covered and to a dominant degree. The next is Kareem. So you can claim media created it, but you see that’s obviously false. Jordan created it and players consistently testify to it.

Again, Russell has the best career in the NBA history. George Mikan has arguably as strong of a case as Jordan.

It is also the adversity he faced in doing it. He wasn’t a quitter.

He literally quit twice during his career, so I don't know why you try using this narrative.

was undeniably the most competitive (maybe Wilt or Russell is in that convo as well). That’s not idolization. This is all truth and player backed.

I see absolutely no reason to believe that Jordan was more competitive than Russell. I don't see any reason to put him higher than someone like Duncan, Bird or Magic in that regard. Again, using words like "undeniably" just proves my point here.

You know that I meant *beyond* a game six. Obvious.

As for 8 peat? Sure. But I'd be more impressed with two three peats, one all star teammate in the first three peat in dominant fashion than an 8 peat where the teammates are carrying the offense.

Elaborate on George Milan having the same case as Jordan. I'd love to see how statistically dominant he was in every serious, carrying his squad each time.

[bledredwine]

But the majority of players and contemporaries stated they were “amazed” and he’s had far more praise than criticism.

Of course he has...? He's an amazing player, one of the best ever. I never denied that.

That’s part of the reason he has two three peats,

I personally prefer 8-peat.

wasn’t taken to a game six

What do you mean by that? Jordan was taken to a game six a lot of times.

Any player you put him against doesn’t have as strong of a case, objectively speaking. That’s not idolizing, that’s saying hey, we haven’t seen the “next Jordan” yet.
Because we haven’t. I’m waiting eagerly.

As I said before, Russell has much stronger case. You just don't accept that because you decided that you need to score a lot to be the GOAT.

He’s the player with the most bases covered and to a dominant degree. The next is Kareem. So you can claim media created it, but you see that’s obviously false. Jordan created it and players consistently testify to it.

Again, Russell has the best career in the NBA history. George Mikan has arguably as strong of a case as Jordan.

It is also the adversity he faced in doing it. He wasn’t a quitter.

He literally quit twice during his career, so I don't know why you try using this narrative.

was undeniably the most competitive (maybe Wilt or Russell is in that convo as well). That’s not idolization. This is all truth and player backed.

I see absolutely no reason to believe that Jordan was more competitive than Russell. I don't see any reason to put him higher than someone like Duncan, Bird or Magic in that regard. Again, using words like "undeniably" just proves my point here.

You know that I meant *beyond* a game six. Obvious.

As for 8 peat? Sure. But I'd be more impressed with two three peats, one all star teammate in the first three peat in dominant fashion than an 8 peat where the teammates are carrying the offense, you have fewer games to play to win each series and fewer series to win it all.

Elaborate on George Milan having the same case as Jordan. I'd love to see how statistically dominant he was in every series, carrying his squad each time. I'm not talking about a certain or few series... I'm talking every series he played in with no blemishes. That's the level of consistency you're comparing him to.

And no, Russell doesn't have a "significantly stronger" case..... he played in an era with less than half as many teams and a squad stacked with hall of famers that carried the scoring, and the team who scores more wins the game, so yes it's important.

And when looking at the stats, it was clear Jordan went berserk when needed and unless you can show stats that Russell's opposition had a significant dip in field goal percentage (not cherry picked, every finals series), there's no argument that his defense supersedes Jordan's ability to dominate offensively and particularly in the clutch. "Significantly stronger" has no facts to back it up.

I'll take Hakeem over Russell, since he had both sides of the game and if he wasn't Russell defensively, he certainly has the better offensive game by a large margin. Russell had 1/3 of his finals series in the .300-.400 field goal percentage on significantly less volume than Hakeem's usual and in more minutes. That's not even debatable.

For the record, I do consider Russell and Mikan (and West especially) highly underrated in these debates.

[lessthanjake]

Jordan has been the consensus GOAT since the last couple years he was in Chicago. There’s always people out there that make alternative arguments against the consensus, but Jordan being the GOAT became pretty widely accepted sometime during the second three-peat. I think one could definitely argue that perception of Jordan was aided by marketing and media attention, but if that’s the case then it’s really about media/marketing in the 1980s/1990s, because he became the consensus GOAT during his career.

[bledredwine]

Jordan has been the consensus GOAT since the last couple years he was in Chicago. There’s always people out there that make alternative arguments against the consensus, but Jordan being the GOAT became pretty widely accepted sometime during the second three-peat. I think one could definitely argue that perception of Jordan was aided by marketing and media attention, but if that’s the case then it’s really about media/marketing in the 1980s/1990s, because he became the consensus GOAT during his career.

True, though well before that.

They were calling him GOAT during the first three-peat. They were all saying it in 1993 as the finals began- this was Zeke, and Magic and Bird, not just the media.

Watch on YouTube

Announcers were beginning to say it in 92' after he won the first chip. You heard it in the 92 playoffs like against the Heat "The greatest player to ever play the game". I remember some players discussing how they kind of knew well before the fact and were just waiting on him getting his first chip (I want to say it was Moncrief and someone, but I forgot tbh). Players and coaches were sensing it early on. Here's Bobby Knight way way early in Jordan's career.

Watch on YouTube

He was just a freak, an outlier. That's what GOATs are. They are the Pele's/Maradona's, Ruth, Ali's, and so on.
Wilt very well could have been that as well. I'll never know.

[lessthanjake]

Jordan has been the consensus GOAT since the last couple years he was in Chicago. There’s always people out there that make alternative arguments against the consensus, but Jordan being the GOAT became pretty widely accepted sometime during the second three-peat. I think one could definitely argue that perception of Jordan was aided by marketing and media attention, but if that’s the case then it’s really about media/marketing in the 1980s/1990s, because he became the consensus GOAT during his career.

True, though well before that.

They were calling him GOAT during the first three-peat. They were all saying it in 1993 as the finals began- this was Zeke, and Magic and Bird, not just the media.

Watch on YouTube

Announcers were beginning to say it in 92' after he won the first chip. You heard it in the 92 playoffs like against the Heat "The greatest player to ever play the game". I remember some players discussing how they kind of knew well before the fact and were just waiting on him getting his first chip (I want to say it was Moncrief and someone, but I forgot tbh). Players and coaches were sensing it early on. Here's Bobby Knight way way early in Jordan's career.

Watch on YouTube

He was just a freak, an outlier. That's what GOATs are. They are the Pele's/Maradona's, Ruth, Ali's, and so on.
Wilt very well could have been that as well. I'll never know.

Yeah, people were definitely saying it during the first three-peat. But I think it really became basically accepted consensus during the second three-peat.

[Iwasawitness]

wasn’t taken to a game six and has the highest respect of his greatest contemporaries.

Another hilarious blunder by yours truly.

[SlimShady83]

wasn’t taken to a game six and has the highest respect of his greatest contemporaries.

Another hilarious blunder by yours truly.

Where has Scrutanbulls been? not sure exact name? hope he ok above anything else, haven't see much of him.

[SlimShady83]

What Is everyones goat players list by position top 5 each position?

Point Guards:
Magic, Curry, Stockton, West?, Oscar

Shooting Guards:
Jordan, Kobe, Iverson?, Wade, Harden??

Small Forwards:
Bird, Bron (I'm a haterLOL), Pippen, Kawhi, KD?

Power Fowards:
Duncan, Rodman, Malone, Davis, Garnett

Centers:
Russell, Shaq(3peat), Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem

??? are more for the unsure of exact position as some class them in others.

[SlimShady83]

This was never a debate. It's still Michael.

It was always a debate until media brainwashed fans to believe Jordan is a deified figure in basketball.

What would you know youngin'. Can you even legally drink yet? Everyone old enough to see MJ live know the real truth.

Bah why do people post IN green? that's like the worst colour you can do, heck I'm not even coloured blind and I struggle to see It

[70sFan]

You know that I meant *beyond* a game six. Obvious.

Jordan was taken to 7 games 3 times in his career and he even lost once. Of course you cherrypick finals series, but Russell never lost any game 7 in his career.

As for 8 peat? Sure. But I'd be more impressed with two three peats, one all star teammate in the first three peat in dominant fashion than an 8 peat where the teammates are carrying the offense, you have fewer games to play to win each series and fewer series to win it all.

Russell still had to win more series in that 8 years span than Jordan in his 3 peat.
By the way, you know that Celtics offense sucked right? So much about teammates carrying Russell offensively.

Elaborate on George Milan having the same case as Jordan. I'd love to see how statistically dominant he was in every series, carrying his squad each time. I'm not talking about a certain or few series... I'm talking every series he played in with no blemishes. That's the level of consistency you're comparing him to.

Mikan won 5 titles and since you like scoring, Mikan led all the series in ppg outside of one 2-games series against Indiana. He's also the leading rebounder, unlike Jordan.

And no, Russell doesn't have a "significantly stronger" case..... he played in an era with less than half as many teams and a squad stacked with hall of famers that carried the scoring, and the team who scores more wins the game, so yes it's important.

You still didn't explain me what made Russell teams stacked and which Russell teammates were so good at scoring, so I am waiting.

And when looking at the stats, it was clear Jordan went berserk when needed and unless you can show stats that Russell's opposition had a significant dip in field goal percentage (not cherry picked, every finals series), there's no argument that his defense supersedes Jordan's ability to dominate offensively and particularly in the clutch. "Significantly stronger" has no facts to back it up.

That's a very rudimentary way to judge defense. It's roughly as stupid as judging Jordan based on FG%, which you know wouldn't look pretty when you look at the 2nd three-peat.

What I can show you is that Russell's teams were consistently the best defensive team both in the RS and PS and they failed miserably to do anything on defense without him.

I'll take Hakeem over Russell, since he had both sides of the game and if he wasn't Russell defensively, he certainly has the better offensive game by a large margin. Russell had 1/3 of his finals series in the .300-.400 field goal percentage on significantly less volume than Hakeem's usual and in more minutes. That's not even debatable.

Yeah, but Russell was either a rookie or in his last season during these finals series. I don't judge Jordan on his rookie or Wizards years.

1960-66 Russell in the finals:

18.9/25.8/4.6 on 50.2 FG% and 54.8 TS%

So much about Russell being bad offensive player.

Of course you'll say that I cherrypick, but the problem is that Russell won more titles than Jordan in his entire career in that period.