The 2016 Offseason Thread

[NTB]

http://www.slamonline.com/the-magazine/features/devin-booker-rookie-season-feature-interview-phoenix-suns/#5U8DJHddx9bjTfXg.97

[letsgosuns]

The Suns do not need to trade Knight and bring a point guard back in the process. Bledsoe is the point guard. Barbosa can be the backup point guard. Ulis can play point guard. Plus Payton is a bad shooter. The guy is a career 57% ft shooter. That is awful. He is a good energy player and what not but the Suns have enough point guards. They do not need another.

Here is another trade that I would rather do. Knight straight up for the Magic's 2017 first round pick unprotected. If that is too risky in case it is the number one pick (I highly doubt that), then do top-3 protected. Top-10 protected is not good enough. Markieff Morris was traded for a top-9 protected pick and Knight is worth far more than him. I personally would demand that no protection be put on the pick because the Suns would be handing the Magic a 24 year old point guard that averages 20 pts, 5 ast, and 4 rbs signed for four more years without taking a player from their roster.

I can respect that position. What about our LAL top 5 protected 2019 pick + Stephen Zimmerman?

The issue with that is three years from now, the Lakers core of Russell, Ingram, and Randle, plus whoever else they have could be very good. So that pick might not be a lottery pick or anywhere close to that. Also, since that pick is three years away and Knight can contribute to any team right now, I imagine the Suns would want an asset they do not have to wait at least three years for.

Here is the key though. The Suns traded the 2015 Lakers pick top-5 protected to acquire Knight. So why would they trade Knight for a weaker asset now, especially with him signed for the next four seasons at a bargain compared to all the new contracts. In addition, that pick, now owned by the 76ers, is top-3 protected for 2017 and becomes unprotected in 2018. It has implications on the the 2019 top-5 protected pick the Magic own. According to this site: [http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Magic.htm], if the 2015 Lakers pick that the Suns traded to the 76ers for Knight does not convey by 2017, then the 2019 Lakers top-5 pick the Magic own turns into second round picks in 2017 and 2018.

There is a legitimate chance that Lakers pick the 76ers own will not convey until 2018. Then the Suns would in essence have traded Knight for two second round picks. There is no way the Suns would take a chance like that. And as far as Zimmerman goes, the Suns already have two 7'1" centers, drafted two new power forwards, and have a third string center on the team as well. So I see no reason they would want another center who was just drafted number 41. If they were interested in that guy, they could have drafted him at number 34 where they drafted Ulis. So ultimately, the trade is going to have to involve the Magic's 2017 pick with very little or no protection. Also, assuming Knight plays well, wouldn't the Magic be competing for a playoff spot anyway? If they do not make the playoffs next year, do you really they think they would be any worse than a mid to low lottery team.

[darealjuice]

Knight will have a better year then Conley

Conley got hella overpaid but he will still pwn Knight, won't put up empty numbers but will do everything that doesn't show up on a boxscore

Baffling how a 28 year old who's best season was 17/6/3 got his contract. Super overrated as a defender too. I'd much rather have 24 year old Knight on 14 million a year than Conley on 30 million a year and it's not even close, although knowing you you'll disagree.

[letsgosuns]

Knight will have a better year then Conley

Conley got hella overpaid but he will still pwn Knight, won't put up empty numbers but will do everything that doesn't show up on a boxscore

Baffling how a 28 year old who's best season was 16/6/3 got his contract. Super overrated as a defender too. I'd much rather have 24 year old Knight on 14 million a year than Conley on 30 million a year and it's not even close, although knowing you you'll disagree.

I believe Mike Conley's contract will end up being one of the worst contracts in the history of sports. The only way the Grizzlies could justify that contract is if they win the championship sometime in the next five years with Conley on the team. To put this into perspective, Conley has been in the league for 9 seasons and never made an all-star team or an all-NBA team. Not once. The only award he won so far was being named to the 2012-13 NBA all-defensive second team. This guy is about to turn 29 in October. He is who he is. I do not think he is magically going to get better in the next few years. If anything, I think he will only get worse as he gets older. His yearly salary during the 2020-21 season when he is 33 years old is 34.5 million.

[saintEscaton]

Knight will have a better year then Conley

Conley got hella overpaid but he will still pwn Knight, won't put up empty numbers but will do everything that doesn't show up on a boxscore

Baffling how a 28 year old who's best season was 16/6/3 got his contract. Super overrated as a defender too. I'd much rather have 24 year old Knight on 14 million a year than Conley on 30 million a year and it's not even close, although knowing you you'll disagree.

I'm not saying Conley deserved that cash, just predicting he will outperform Knight once again despite regressing.Not surprising coming from someone who only cares about slashlines, he trumps him in nearly every APBRmetric be it cumualtive VORP, WS/48 or OBPM. You do realize that Conley plays one of the slowest pace teams in the league right? He has to methodically spoonfeed ZBo/MGasol in the post, his per 100 possessions adjusted numbers paints a better picture

[Walt_Uoob]

The guy on Orlando I most covet is Ibaka. I really like his game and something based on Knight (and a protected pick?) for Ibaka could make some sense, provided 1) we think we can re-up Ibaka, 2) we think Bender and Chriss are going to take a few years to develop, 3) we also trade Tucker and shift Dudley to SF, and 4) the Orlando FO thinks they can explain how they effectively traded Dipo and Sabonis for Knight, which would be a tough sell.

I can't see it actually happening, and Ibaka's presumably looking for a featured role and a max contract, both of which are kind of scary. But he'd be a great example for Chriss to model himself after, and an obvious upgrade for the next few years. Bledsoe-Booker-Dudley-Ibaka-Chandler would be a very nice mix of shooting/spacing/slashing with plus defenders at at least three positions. Warren-Len-LB-Goodwin-Jenkins-rookies off the bench, and all three rookies spending a lot of time in D-League too. I could get excited about that team.

[darealjuice]

Conley got hella overpaid but he will still pwn Knight, won't put up empty numbers but will do everything that doesn't show up on a boxscore

Baffling how a 28 year old who's best season was 16/6/3 got his contract. Super overrated as a defender too. I'd much rather have 24 year old Knight on 14 million a year than Conley on 30 million a year and it's not even close, although knowing you you'll disagree.

I'm not saying Conley deserved that cash, just predicting he will outperform Knight once again despite regressing.Not surprising coming from someone who only cares about slashlines, he trumps him in nearly every APBRmetric be it cumualtive VORP, WS/48 or OBPM. You do realize that Conley plays one of the slowest pace teams in the league right? He has to methodically spoonfeed ZBo/MGasol in the post, his per 100 possessions adjusted numbers paints a better picture

Oh shut up. I don't only care about statlines (you know, what they actual produce), I just don't circle jerk out of context advanced metrics like they're the end all be all statistics like you do lol. It's like you think that if you take him out of one of the slowest offense in the league into a fast paced one, his stats will directly translate just because the stats say so, which is pretty ridiculous.

[Zelaznyrules]

If we can get Cousins without giving up Bledsoe/Booker/Bender then I'll be fine with it. Not saying I'd give up the rest of the team / assets for him though...

I don't know how long I can last with how high you guys rate Bender. I think that's what gets me the most with Suns fans and makes me dislike him more. I would give Len, Bender, and Archie for Cousins.

Bender will be a good player off the bench but will never have star potential like Cousins.

As I've said before, I think Cousins is overrated but yeah, I'd jump on that deal. But there's no way in the world that offer would impress the Kings unless they were forced into a fire sale.

[letsgosuns]

I remember thinking five years ago Conley was going to turn into a top point in the league and become an all-star. Then he never got much better. He stayed the same. A good player that plays the right way but that is about it. Advanced stats or not, 15 pts, 6 ast, and 3 rbs is not elite. Now he is paid like he is Kevin Durant or Lebron James.

[lilfishi22]

I like Conley as a player. I like how he runs the team and does all the other things that doesn't show up on the stat sheet and I do think if he played in a faster offense, he'd adjust very well. That said, it's hard to justify his deal. You'd absolutely have to be at least #1 or #2 in your position to be worth that much.

[bwgood77]

The Suns do not need to trade Knight and bring a point guard back in the process. Bledsoe is the point guard. Barbosa can be the backup point guard. Ulis can play point guard. Plus Payton is a bad shooter. The guy is a career 57% ft shooter. That is awful. He is a good energy player and what not but the Suns have enough point guards. They do not need another.

Here is another trade that I would rather do. Knight straight up for the Magic's 2017 first round pick unprotected. If that is too risky in case it is the number one pick (I highly doubt that), then do top-3 protected. Top-10 protected is not good enough. Markieff Morris was traded for a top-9 protected pick and Knight is worth far more than him. I personally would demand that no protection be put on the pick because the Suns would be handing the Magic a 24 year old point guard that averages 20 pts, 5 ast, and 4 rbs signed for four more years without taking a player from their roster.

Well they wouldn't do those trades you mention. Knight IS a better shooter then Payton and shot 34.2% from 3 to Payton's 32.6%. Not that far off. From 2 pt range Knight shot 46.1% to Payton's 45.1%. Payton is a WAY better defender and has a WAY better ast/to ratio.

What if Bledsoe goes down for half the season again? He's done that 67% of his time with us. Actually missed quite a bit more than half last year. He may have a career ending injury. Most of realgm thinks he will be lucky to last that much longer. You REALLY want to rely on Barbosa?

Payton has been in the league 2 years and makes a ton less and we could control him for a while.

I don't know. Maybe you think Bledsoe will be 100% healthy from here on out and Barbosa has a lot left in the tank or like Knight FAR more than I do.

I have high hopes for Knight this year, but saying no to Payton AND Aminu or Harkless AND a top 10 protected pick? That would be crazy to turn down. Knight may be overall better than Payton, but he's also older and makes a lot more and we already have a better pg and a better 2 guard. Is a 6th man worth $15 million a year?

[letsgosuns]

The Suns do not need to trade Knight and bring a point guard back in the process. Bledsoe is the point guard. Barbosa can be the backup point guard. Ulis can play point guard. Plus Payton is a bad shooter. The guy is a career 57% ft shooter. That is awful. He is a good energy player and what not but the Suns have enough point guards. They do not need another.

Here is another trade that I would rather do. Knight straight up for the Magic's 2017 first round pick unprotected. If that is too risky in case it is the number one pick (I highly doubt that), then do top-3 protected. Top-10 protected is not good enough. Markieff Morris was traded for a top-9 protected pick and Knight is worth far more than him. I personally would demand that no protection be put on the pick because the Suns would be handing the Magic a 24 year old point guard that averages 20 pts, 5 ast, and 4 rbs signed for four more years without taking a player from their roster.

Well they wouldn't do those trades you mention. Knight IS a better shooter then Payton and shot 34.2% from 3 to Payton's 32.6%. Not that far off. From 2 pt range Knight shot 46.1% to Payton's 45.1%. Payton is a WAY better defender and has a WAY better ast/to ratio.

What if Bledsoe goes down for half the season again? He's done that 67% of his time with us. Actually missed quite a bit more than half last year. He may have a career ending injury. Most of realgm thinks he will be lucky to last that much longer. You REALLY want to rely on Barbosa?

Payton has been in the league 2 years and makes a ton less and we could control him for a while.

I don't know. Maybe you think Bledsoe will be 100% healthy from here on out and Barbosa has a lot left in the tank or like Knight FAR more than I do.

I have high hopes for Knight this year, but saying no to Payton AND Aminu or Harkless AND a top 10 protected pick? That would be crazy to turn down. Knight may be overall better than Payton, but he's also older and makes a lot more and we already have a better pg and a better 2 guard. Is a 6th man worth $15 million a year?

Honestly, I do not want Knight, Payton, or even Bledsoe. I want to sign Westbrook. That is what I want.

[bwgood77]

The Suns do not need to trade Knight and bring a point guard back in the process. Bledsoe is the point guard. Barbosa can be the backup point guard. Ulis can play point guard. Plus Payton is a bad shooter. The guy is a career 57% ft shooter. That is awful. He is a good energy player and what not but the Suns have enough point guards. They do not need another.

Here is another trade that I would rather do. Knight straight up for the Magic's 2017 first round pick unprotected. If that is too risky in case it is the number one pick (I highly doubt that), then do top-3 protected. Top-10 protected is not good enough. Markieff Morris was traded for a top-9 protected pick and Knight is worth far more than him. I personally would demand that no protection be put on the pick because the Suns would be handing the Magic a 24 year old point guard that averages 20 pts, 5 ast, and 4 rbs signed for four more years without taking a player from their roster.

But he's the worst player in the NBA

No, but he's worth a young pretty good pg, a decent wing/pf backup, and a top 10 protected pick. 20, 5, 4 on terrible shooting %s and turning it over 1 time for every 1.5 assists....I'd rather he have zero assists and zero turnovers and shoot less and get less than 20 allowing other people to shoot like Payton does because he shoots about the same %. You guys look at raw #s without it costs our team as a whole for Knight to get to 20 points and 5 assists. Taking as many shots as he does to get that many points and turning it over to get that many assists does not add value, which is why he graded as a far than below average player this year.

Hopefully he gets better, and I expect he will but last year he really sucked regardless of the raw #s you guys use to back your arguments.

[bwgood77]

If we can get Cousins without giving up Bledsoe/Booker/Bender then I'll be fine with it. Not saying I'd give up the rest of the team / assets for him though...

I don't know how long I can last with how high you guys rate Bender. I think that's what gets me the most with Suns fans and makes me dislike him more. I would give Len, Bender, and Archie for Cousins.

Bender will be a good player off the bench but will never have star potential like Cousins.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Good. I LOVE Bender. A little quick to judge him are you? You hated him from day 1. We all know he's a project. Well at least most of us do.

[bwgood77]

Hey guys! Magic fan here!

I've been curious as to how you guys value Brandon Knight. Would you consider trading him? If so, what would you expect in return?

Well I'm sure just about anyone would trade him if the deal is right. On your team I'm guessing it wouldn't be for anyone you wanted to trade. Most would probably trade for Gordon or Hezonja or Fournier or a lightly protected pick. Many for Biyombo or Serge. Maybe some for a combination of others and more heavily protected picks.

Knight has nowhere near that value, despite being locked in longterm on a "bargain' contract he is still a sub replacement level dime a dozen combo guard. Fournier is easily a Top 10 SG, Gordon/Hezonja haven't broken out yet but are promising prospects The Magic just relieved their backcourt logjam getting rid of Dipo, Knight doesn't make sense unless they envision him running the point which is a recipe for disaster. I don't think Hennigan would tradeBiyombo/Serge(who only has one year left) considering they were just acquired to anchor Vogel's defense. Gordon is probably getting the bulk of his minutes at the 3 as bad as that may sound

I know he doesn't. That's why I was saying what it would take for most and many of OUR forum so they likely wouldn't go for it. His offer seemed more than fair though.

[bwgood77]

The Suns do not need to trade Knight and bring a point guard back in the process. Bledsoe is the point guard. Barbosa can be the backup point guard. Ulis can play point guard. Plus Payton is a bad shooter. The guy is a career 57% ft shooter. That is awful. He is a good energy player and what not but the Suns have enough point guards. They do not need another.

Here is another trade that I would rather do. Knight straight up for the Magic's 2017 first round pick unprotected. If that is too risky in case it is the number one pick (I highly doubt that), then do top-3 protected. Top-10 protected is not good enough. Markieff Morris was traded for a top-9 protected pick and Knight is worth far more than him. I personally would demand that no protection be put on the pick because the Suns would be handing the Magic a 24 year old point guard that averages 20 pts, 5 ast, and 4 rbs signed for four more years without taking a player from their roster.

I can respect that position. What about our LAL top 5 protected 2019 pick + Stephen Zimmerman?

The issue with that is three years from now, the Lakers core of Russell, Ingram, and Randle, plus whoever else they have could be very good. So that pick might not be a lottery pick or anywhere close to that. Also, since that pick is three years away and Knight can contribute to any team right now, I imagine the Suns would want an asset they do not have to wait at least three years for.

Here is the key though. The Suns traded the 2015 Lakers pick top-5 protected to acquire Knight. So why would they trade Knight for a weaker asset now, especially with him signed for the next four seasons at a bargain compared to all the new contracts. In addition, that pick, now owned by the 76ers, is top-3 protected for 2017 and becomes unprotected in 2018. It has implications on the the 2019 top-5 protected pick the Magic own. According to this site: [http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/Magic.htm], if the 2015 Lakers pick that the Suns traded to the 76ers for Knight does not convey by 2017, then the 2019 Lakers top-5 pick the Magic own turns into second round picks in 2017 and 2018.

There is a legitimate chance that Lakers pick the 76ers own will not convey until 2018. Then the Suns would in essence have traded Knight for two second round picks. There is no way the Suns would take a chance like that. And as far as Zimmerman goes, the Suns already have two 7'1" centers, drafted two new power forwards, and have a third string center on the team as well. So I see no reason they would want another center who was just drafted number 41. If they were interested in that guy, they could have drafted him at number 34 where they drafted Ulis. So ultimately, the trade is going to have to involve the Magic's 2017 pick with very little or no protection. Also, assuming Knight plays well, wouldn't the Magic be competing for a playoff spot anyway? If they do not make the playoffs next year, do you really they think they would be any worse than a mid to low lottery team.

Are you sure he wasn't just adding that pick in instead of the top 10 protected one he originally included with Payton and Harkless or Aminu? So in that case it wouldn't be just that one worse asset.

[bwgood77]

Honestly, I do not want Knight, Payton, or even Bledsoe. I want to sign Westbrook. That is what I want.

Sure, I'm sure we all would take Westbrook over any of those guys. That's a no brainer. I'm just surprised if you don't want Knight, and could keep Bledsoe but add a backup in Payton for insurance if he goes down, a 1st round pick only top 10 protected from a team that likely finishes in the lottery but not too far out of the playoffs in a very deep draft, and another solid defensive 4, that you wouldn't do it.

Even with Payton, halfway through a rookie contract, he would be very tradeable if you wanted to trade him or if we drafted Fultz or a stud in the next draft.

[letsgosuns]

Honestly, I do not want Knight, Payton, or even Bledsoe. I want to sign Westbrook. That is what I want.

Sure, I'm sure we all would take Westbrook over any of those guys. That's a no brainer. I'm just surprised if you don't want Knight, and could keep Bledsoe but add a backup in Payton for insurance if he goes down, a 1st round pick only top 10 protected from a team that likely finishes in the lottery but not too far out of the playoffs in a very deep draft, and another solid defensive 4, that you wouldn't do it.

Even with Payton, halfway through a rookie contract, he would be very tradeable if you wanted to trade him or if we drafted Fultz or a stud in the next draft.

The Suns do not need Knight and they do not need Payton. They have too many guards and need to trade people. Booker, Bledsoe, Barbosa, Knight, Goodwin, Ulis, and Jenkins. What is the point of all those guards. Bringing in Payton is just bringing in another guy that wants to play 30 minutes a game and the Suns do not have that available. I have watched him and I do not think he is nearly as good as Bledsoe. He is good but whatever. The Suns have a lot of random guards with potential already. I would rather have an unprotected pick then bring in another point guard. And I am 100% not a fan of Booker at the sf spot alongside two point guards. No way. I want the Suns to play a big, versatile lineup.

[bwgood77]

Honestly, I do not want Knight, Payton, or even Bledsoe. I want to sign Westbrook. That is what I want.

Sure, I'm sure we all would take Westbrook over any of those guys. That's a no brainer. I'm just surprised if you don't want Knight, and could keep Bledsoe but add a backup in Payton for insurance if he goes down, a 1st round pick only top 10 protected from a team that likely finishes in the lottery but not too far out of the playoffs in a very deep draft, and another solid defensive 4, that you wouldn't do it.

Even with Payton, halfway through a rookie contract, he would be very tradeable if you wanted to trade him or if we drafted Fultz or a stud in the next draft.

The Suns do not need Knight and they do not need Payton. They have too many guards and need to trade people. Booker, Bledsoe, Barbosa, Knight, Goodwin, Ulis, and Jenkins. What is the point of all those guards. Bringing in Payton is just bringing in another guy that wants to play 30 minutes a game and the Suns do not have that available. I have watched him and I do not think he is nearly as good as Bledsoe. He is good but whatever. The Suns have a lot of random guards with potential already. I would rather have an unprotected pick then bring in another point guard. And I am 100% not a fan of Booker at the sf spot alongside two point guards. No way. I want the Suns to play a big, versatile lineup.

Bledsoe is much better. Bledsoe is our best player without a doubt. Payton would back him up and will only get better being 21. Knight is much more redundant. Ulis isn't ready to play many minutes. If Bledsoe goes down we are screwed.

ANYONE WOULD RATHER HAVE AN UNPROTECTED PICK BUT SOME DON'T THROW UNREASONABLE TRADE REQUESTS FOR KNIGHT OUT THERE LIKE THEY ARE WITHIN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY.

[letsgosuns]

Sure, I'm sure we all would take Westbrook over any of those guys. That's a no brainer. I'm just surprised if you don't want Knight, and could keep Bledsoe but add a backup in Payton for insurance if he goes down, a 1st round pick only top 10 protected from a team that likely finishes in the lottery but not too far out of the playoffs in a very deep draft, and another solid defensive 4, that you wouldn't do it.

Even with Payton, halfway through a rookie contract, he would be very tradeable if you wanted to trade him or if we drafted Fultz or a stud in the next draft.

The Suns do not need Knight and they do not need Payton. They have too many guards and need to trade people. Booker, Bledsoe, Barbosa, Knight, Goodwin, Ulis, and Jenkins. What is the point of all those guards. Bringing in Payton is just bringing in another guy that wants to play 30 minutes a game and the Suns do not have that available. I have watched him and I do not think he is nearly as good as Bledsoe. He is good but whatever. The Suns have a lot of random guards with potential already. I would rather have an unprotected pick then bring in another point guard. And I am 100% not a fan of Booker at the sf spot alongside two point guards. No way. I want the Suns to play a big, versatile lineup.

Bledsoe is much better. Bledsoe is our best player without a doubt. Payton would back him up and will only get better being 21. Knight is much more redundant. Ulis isn't ready to play many minutes. If Bledsoe goes down we are screwed.

ANYONE WOULD RATHER HAVE AN UNPROTECTED PICK BUT SOME DON'T THROW UNREASONABLE TRADE REQUESTS FOR KNIGHT OUT THERE LIKE THEY ARE WITHIN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY.

How is my trade idea unreasonable? Do I like Knight? No. But that does not mean he does not have good value. The Suns do not need to trade him. He is not demanding a trade. If anything, I think it is highly unlikely they trade him with the way he is talking now saying all he cares about is winning. I also said originally if an unprotected pick is too much than you could do top-3 protection on the pick. What is wrong with that.

Also, Payton so far has averaged 30 mpg in his career with the Magic. That guy is not going to be happy being relegated to a bench role. Also, off the bench you want instant scoring and good shooting which he does not provide. If you are interested in getting him as insurance for Bledsoe, then it is better to trade Bledsoe and give up on him immediately if you are that worried about his health. The team either believes in Bledsoe and wants to go ahead with him or they do not. You cannot build a young team and plan to have a guy as a main player if you are wondering if he will be healthy before the season starts.