Kyrie Trade Discussion Continued

[SelfishPlayer]

It depends on how you define success. He wouldn't win as many titles, but he may have solidified himself higher on the all time lists.

Kyrie has already answered the question about whether he is a championship caliber 2nd option and closer. Now he wants to combat other questions about his game...I have nothing wrong with that.




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Winners play to answer questions pertaining to championships. The question is "can Kyrie win another one with Lebron." He's avoiding that question to answer questions that I do not respect. It seems as if Durant signing with GSW and now Kyrie asking for a trade are moves made with the desired intention to hurt Lebron's legacy.

Seems like you have a very Lebron-centric view of these events.

These players careers don't revolve around Lebron.

This is legit the same logic Kobe dealt with when he feuded with Shaq. Everyone said he was dumb and that he didn't value winning etc. those 2 wins and 3 finals appearances were worth more than anything he could have done with Shaq. Sometimes you gotta make a leap.

Really wish we could pull up threads from somewhere when Shaq first left...

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Shaq and Kobe fueded to the point that Kobe mentioned Shaq's personal sexual business to the police. This is not the same to me.

[gino_giode]

Kyrie is an intellectual.....sometimes those dudes come off as odd.

Intellectual? I'm pretty certain, nobody who legitimately believes the earth is flat should be described as "intellectual", even for an nba player. I'm undecided if kyrie was trolling there though.

Like, uhhh, questioning what is positively known and verifiable is more likely to make me believe you're an idiot rather than an open free thinker or whatever.

It's always good to question things. Especially when you've made no observations yourself and all the "known" evidence comes from a second hand source.

Not saying I believe in flat earth theory. But it's very close minded to be so critical of someone because of their beliefs.

Skepticism is good for many things (ie: journalism), but when you glaze over laws of physics established by brilliant men throughout history simply because "you didn't see it yourself", then you look like a lazy asshat.

To me, that's the lazy way of getting away with not understanding something (ie: asking can someone definitively prove it to them) the same way how society collectively displays a lazy intelligence (ie: we have advanced computer chips that make manufacturing so simple---when that particular person has no clue about electrical engineering).

[JonFromVA]

Intellectual? I'm pretty certain, nobody who legitimately believes the earth is flat should be described as "intellectual", even for an nba player. I'm undecided if kyrie was trolling there though.

Like, uhhh, questioning what is positively known and verifiable is more likely to make me believe you're an idiot rather than an open free thinker or whatever.

It's always good to question things. Especially when you've made no observations yourself and all the "known" evidence comes from a second hand source.

Not saying I believe in flat earth theory. But it's very close minded to be so critical of someone because of their beliefs.

Skepticism is good for many things (ie: journalism), but when you glaze over laws of physics established by brilliant men throughout history simply because "you didn't see it yourself", then you look like a lazy asshat.

To me, that's the lazy way of getting away with not understanding something (ie: asking can someone definitively prove it to them) the same way how society collectively displays a lazy intelligence (ie: we have advanced computer chips that make manufacturing so simple---when that particular person has no clue about electrical engineering).

Heck, skepticism is the foundation of science. It's not science if you can't question it, run the experiments, and judge the results for yourself (assuming you can access the necessary equipment).

But I've always presumed due to the podcast he announced his belief on that Irving was just joking/trolling.

When the ball gets rolling, though, just about everything will be thrown back in the face of a player who's insulted some segment of the fan base.

[nbafan38]

If Kyrie had just told Cleveland this when the season ended they'd have a starting five right now of


Lebron
George
Thompson
Love
Rose

[SelfishPlayer]

If Kyrie had just told Cleveland this when the season ended they'd have a starting five right now of


Lebron
George
Thompson
Love
Rose

That's why I believe that Kyrie's goal is to sabotage Lebron's legacy just like Durant making the move to GSW. These guys hate Lebron more than they enjoy winning.

[mademan]

If Kyrie had just told Cleveland this when the season ended they'd have a starting five right now of


Lebron
George
Thompson
Love
Rose

That's why I believe that Kyrie's goal is to sabotage Lebron's legacy just like Durant making the move to GSW. These guys hate Lebron more than they enjoy winning.

Ya, kyries gonna uproot his entire life just to mess with Lebron.

[SelfishPlayer]

If Kyrie had just told Cleveland this when the season ended they'd have a starting five right now of


Lebron
George
Thompson
Love
Rose

That's why I believe that Kyrie's goal is to sabotage Lebron's legacy just like Durant making the move to GSW. These guys hate Lebron more than they enjoy winning.

Ya, kyries gonna uproot his entire life just to mess with Lebron.

Since when is his entire life rooted in Cleveland? Are there even any NBA players that have a life rooted in their current organization? Dirk? Curry?

[Stephback 3]

I support Irving for his decision. It may not be the best move for his overall legacy, but at the same time, is losing to the Warriors next year really going to do him any better? Especially if LeBron leaves the year after that, creates a massive gaping hole on an already washed up Cleveland roster and the core of Kyrie/Love/Thompson ends up barely making or even missing the playoffs.

Seems as though he has thought out what kind the situation he wants to be in next: being the primary scoring option on a playoff team. In his mind he might think of it as a Iverson or Westbrook-type scenario where he's gunning for the scoring title/MVP in an at least somewhat competitive situation (certainly much less demanding than playing alongside LeBron however).

I personally would love to see him get traded to the Knicks (maybe a package centered around Carmelo and Frank Ntilikina?). Eventhough the duo of him and Porzingis might end up as perennial second round exits they're both young players with star-potential and could develop a nice chemistry over the years.

He's certainly in the right for not caring about LeBron's legacy, because at the end of the day LeBron won't care about his when he makes his next move.

[Edrees]

If Kyrie had just told Cleveland this when the season ended they'd have a starting five right now of


Lebron
George
Thompson
Love
Rose

Am I the only one that thinks Kyrie saw the cavs were unable to acquire anyone in the off season that would help them beat the warriors, so he figured "if I'm not gonna win a title I might as well play somewhere where I am the man" Basically he was sucking up playing 2nd fiddle for a chance at titles but he really feels the probability of beating the warriors is too low that it now becomes more appealing to be the #1 on another team. If Kobe and Shaq only won 1 title and kept losing in the finals I highly doubt they stay together for half as long.

It's also possible David Griffin had a personal relationship with Kyrie promising him what kind of team to build around him if Lebron bolts and now that he didn't have that security he wanted out. I just think there are soooooooooo many reasons that could have been a result of the horrible cavs off-season.

[Kempistry2]

If you are a star caliber player who would want to play on a team where the other star constantly belittles your play and treats you like a servant/child? Lebron wouldn't accept that, so why would he expect a guy like Kyrie to?

How dare LeBron hold Kyrie back!

Where are you getting the notion Kyrie was "constantly belittled" by LeBron, or anyone for that matter? Kyrie's been wanting to leave Cleveland for years now and those first reports began to surface long before LeBron came back. Now, it's "LeBron's fault" he wants to leave? Nonsense...

Fact of the matter is Kyrie's seen the most success in his entire career alongside LeBron. The fact that he can't humble himself a bit, learn what it takes to truly lead a team from an all-time great until it's his time while enjoying the chance to compete for championships is indicative of a problem on Kyrie's end, not LeBron. Afterall, what team is Kyrie going to where he expects to compete? If it's anywhere out West; good luck dealing with Golden State. If it's anywhere out East; good luck dealing with LeBron or the Celtics. Kyrie isn't the caliber of player to lead a team to a championship on his own merits. But if he wants to waste the best years of his career playing for a low to mid-tier team "being the man" to get bounced out the 1st and 2nd rounds year after year then he's truly a delusional, selfish idiot. If he wanted out that badly then he should've never signed the extension.

Constantly bitching that your teammates suck is stupid.

I'm just saying that a good GM/teammate wouldn't alienate the second best player on the team. He may be a selfish idiot, but he's your selfish idiot and it's your job as leader to keep him onside.

If Lebron just played like a Duncan, this wouldn't happen. You never heard Duncan blaming Ginnobli or Parker. A leader takes the blame and spreads praise. Lebron does the opposite.

[Kempistry2]

We'll see what happens, but I'm surprised LBJ isn't taking more heat for this. His constant threat to leave after any given season means that the entire team is in constant turmoil and it has finally come back to bite him in the ass.

James has never threatened to leave. There are certainly players who have willingly hitched themselves to James and have little interest in playing for the Cavs if he's not there. That's technically a benefit of having him on the team. No James, no Kevin Love for instance. No Derrick Rose, etc, etc.

The constant bitching that his team isn't good enough, which is trashing your teammates, was uncalled for.

He didn't "bitch constantly" ... he made a factual observation that the team needed help ... one that echoed the front office's plans. He didn't trash anyone and if Kyrie couldn't see that much of the team's struggles were due to his inability to run the second unit effectively, that's on him.

James is on one year deals which is the same thing.

The message has constantly been that he "needs more help." That should not be the message. You ever hear Tim Duncan or Wayne Gretzky say that? Or Tom Brady? No and for a good reason.

[InWestWeTrust]

Intellectual? I'm pretty certain, nobody who legitimately believes the earth is flat should be described as "intellectual", even for an nba player. I'm undecided if kyrie was trolling there though.

Like, uhhh, questioning what is positively known and verifiable is more likely to make me believe you're an idiot rather than an open free thinker or whatever.

It's always good to question things. Especially when you've made no observations yourself and all the "known" evidence comes from a second hand source.

Not saying I believe in flat earth theory. But it's very close minded to be so critical of someone because of their beliefs.

Skepticism is good for many things (ie: journalism), but when you glaze over laws of physics established by brilliant men throughout history simply because "you didn't see it yourself", then you look like a lazy asshat.

To me, that's the lazy way of getting away with not understanding something (ie: asking can someone definitively prove it to them) the same way how society collectively displays a lazy intelligence (ie: we have advanced computer chips that make manufacturing so simple---when that particular person has no clue about electrical engineering).

To each their own. FWIW "laws of physics" = theories

Not everything has to be proven. That's why I'm indifferent to the whole subject. I'm not going to believe its round because the media/school tells me it is. And I'm not going to believe its flat/triangular/dome/disk/whatever either.

I just don't care and it confuses me as to why everyone always thinks they are right (which is fine) yet they feel the need to bash on other people's theories/ideas. Science is similar to religion in this way.

Now that I got super off topic

Can Kyrie get traded already? Even though that probably won't stop SAS from running his mouth about Lebron.

[bwgood77]

Is this really that different than when Joe Johnson wanted to leave the legendary Suns team to have his own team in Atlanta?
http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

The summer of 04' Joe wanted a 6 year deal for 50m and the Suns were only offering 45. Keep in mind that JJ hadn't proven much until that point and there was nothing wrong with the Suns wanting to see another season before giving him a 6 year deal. The mistake was giving Q-Rich the exact same deal they wouldn't give JJ. I think he made up his mind at that point to play out his last year and ask Phoenix not to match any offer-sheet the following summer. At that point nobody realized how good the Suns were going to be.

And of course because of the Q signing they also traded the draft pick, which could have been Iguodala. I was so mad when they signed Q and didn't give JJ the extension and got rid of the pick. Having JJ on the 6 year contract along with Iguodala would have been far better. That Q contract cost them in many ways because they had given out too many contracts...ultimately they traded it for Kurt Thomas and later had to dump him trading two firsts to do so...one of those firsts being Ibaka. Then he got traded by the Thunder (Thomas) to the Spurs to help them against the Suns in the playoffs. That Q signing was a domino starting various chains of bad things for the Suns.

[JonFromVA]

We'll see what happens, but I'm surprised LBJ isn't taking more heat for this. His constant threat to leave after any given season means that the entire team is in constant turmoil and it has finally come back to bite him in the ass.

James has never threatened to leave. There are certainly players who have willingly hitched themselves to James and have little interest in playing for the Cavs if he's not there. That's technically a benefit of having him on the team. No James, no Kevin Love for instance. No Derrick Rose, etc, etc.

The constant bitching that his team isn't good enough, which is trashing your teammates, was uncalled for.

He didn't "bitch constantly" ... he made a factual observation that the team needed help ... one that echoed the front office's plans. He didn't trash anyone and if Kyrie couldn't see that much of the team's struggles were due to his inability to run the second unit effectively, that's on him.

James is on one year deals which is the same thing.

The message has constantly been that he "needs more help." That should not be the message. You ever hear Tim Duncan or Wayne Gretzky say that? Or Tom Brady? No and for a good reason.

It's not the same thing - which is why I pointed out it's not the same thing. Does he retain control over his own career and leverage over the team by doing so? Absolutely. He's a free man, he's allowed to accept less guaranteed money in exchange for more control.

Fact is everyone knew that when the Cavs were unable to retain Mozgov and Delly that they were going to need help. If Kyrie thought that was about him? Well, yes, it was in a sense. The Cavs need a rim protector because Kyrie can't stay in front of anyone, and they need a secondary playmaker because LeBron can't play 48+ mpg. Yeah, I guess reality can be mean.

[JonFromVA]

I just don't care and it confuses me as to why everyone always thinks they are right (which is fine) yet they feel the need to bash on other people's theories/ideas. Science is similar to religion in this way.

Now that I got super off topic

You're right to point out that scientific laws are actually just theories, but equating science with belief is a very slippery slope that's very risky for society. As you say, way off topic, though.

[baldur]

If Kyrie had just told Cleveland this when the season ended they'd have a starting five right now of


Lebron
George
Thompson
Love
Rose

Am I the only one that thinks Kyrie saw the cavs were unable to acquire anyone in the off season that would help them beat the warriors, so he figured "if I'm not gonna win a title I might as well play somewhere where I am the man" Basically he was sucking up playing 2nd fiddle for a chance at titles but he really feels the probability of beating the warriors is too low that it now becomes more appealing to be the #1 on another team. If Kobe and Shaq only won 1 title and kept losing in the finals I highly doubt they stay together for half as long.

It's also possible David Griffin had a personal relationship with Kyrie promising him what kind of team to build around him if Lebron bolts and now that he didn't have that security he wanted out. I just think there are soooooooooo many reasons that could have been a result of the horrible cavs off-season.

I agree with you. He wants to be the number one.

[jswede]

If Kyrie had just told Cleveland this when the season ended they'd have a starting five right now of


Lebron
George
Thompson
Love
Rose

Wasn't Kyrie included in George trade offers? Isn't that part of why he's pissed?

[XxIronChainzxX]

It's always good to question things. Especially when you've made no observations yourself and all the "known" evidence comes from a second hand source.

Not saying I believe in flat earth theory. But it's very close minded to be so critical of someone because of their beliefs.

Skepticism is good for many things (ie: journalism), but when you glaze over laws of physics established by brilliant men throughout history simply because "you didn't see it yourself", then you look like a lazy asshat.

To me, that's the lazy way of getting away with not understanding something (ie: asking can someone definitively prove it to them) the same way how society collectively displays a lazy intelligence (ie: we have advanced computer chips that make manufacturing so simple---when that particular person has no clue about electrical engineering).

To each their own. FWIW "laws of physics" = theories

Not everything has to be proven. That's why I'm indifferent to the whole subject. I'm not going to believe its round because the media/school tells me it is. And I'm not going to believe its flat/triangular/dome/disk/whatever either.

I just don't care and it confuses me as to why everyone always thinks they are right (which is fine) yet they feel the need to bash on other people's theories/ideas. Science is similar to religion in this way.

Now that I got super off topic

Can Kyrie get traded already? Even though that probably won't stop SAS from running his mouth about Lebron.

Preach. I'm not going to believe computers need this "electricity" BS just because science and school tell me. It's perfectly plausible invisible elves are drawing on the screen. It confuses me why people act like my elf theory is somehow crazy.

[3Diamantidis]

We're all tired of hearing about that Kyrie. Funny thing though is that when he gets traded and Lebron doesn't win the championship again Kyrie is going to get the blame for leaving him

You do realize you have: Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson and Draymond Green on your team right? Guy is out here talking about when .... loses .... it will be because of .... When his own team is damn near fielding a gold winning olympics team.

The thing is that the warriors DRAFTED curry, thompson, green.
At the same time the cavs(with top picks almost every season) managed to draft and keep only kyrie.
Benett is without team....and wiggins plays at minny.
Not the best of management and developing.
Other than that i doubt that the warriors would have given 13m for JR Smith and 11m for Shumpert.
They prefer to give it to guys like iguodala.

KD was just the reward. The luxury. Well played, well deserved GS.

[Profound23]

If Kyrie had just told Cleveland this when the season ended they'd have a starting five right now of


Lebron
George
Thompson
Love
Rose

Wasn't Kyrie included in George trade offers? Isn't that part of why he's pissed?

Yep