Trade and free agency speculation

[jredsaz]

2019 has a lot more options at our positions of need, and with guys who make sense given their ages. We also could get 1 max guy and a 2nd near max if we managed the cap right and Book extends after. I realize many don't believe we would fair well in FA, but Phx historically has and most recently didn't want to come here to play with our awful roster post-Nash. I mean, go look at that roster for everyone here who thinks McDonough has been a disaster. That roster's best players were Gortat and Dudley and neither lit the world on fire when we moved them.

With Ayton, Booker, Jackson, Bridges, we have a good core and finally a respected coach. We should up our wins on the year to finish still out of the playoffs but probably like the 8th worst team instead of dead last, which will show max level FAs that they can step in and make the playoffs year 1 or 2 with a chance to contend as those players finally hit their primes and stay in them for like a decade due to their youth.

We can also sell the 2nd near max slot to pair them with someone. It isn't a bad selling spot at all, and is a lot better than the scenarios we've had in the recent past with star FAs.

Point being, increased competition shouldn't be a reason to avoid FA. Any time you go for a better player, either through trade, through tanking for the draft, through free agency, you face increased competition. That is just how life is. We should at least try to maximize our potential, and that potential is highest with Book putting his damn extension off for 1 season so we can try to make it rain next offseason for guys who are ideal fits instead of "nice to have" guys who are incomplete, partial solutions like the Marcus freaking Smarts of the world, who frankly probably isn't even a top 30 PG in this league.

I agree, but the point is we just have to wait and see what the FO does. My guess is they give him the extension. I don't know if you have worked through numbers but if we sign anyone this summer past one year that kills any possibility of a near 2nd max guy in 19...not even sure we could get near second max anyway without somehow discarding players that are still under contract for zero salaries taken back..guys like Chriss and Bender, and I don't think that is what you want to do.

If we give him an extension AND don't sign anyone past one year, we can maybe get near one max in 19 bu that would require stretching Knight (or trading him for nothing which would open a lot more but would cost a likely first round pick) or shedding a few guys like Chriss/Bender/Warren for no salary return...all of this is difficult without many teams having cap space.

I like your ideals but we simply have to observe what the FO will do and my guess is we will end up not having much for money in 19. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but we will see.

I specifically said 1 max and a 2nd near max. It would be tougher to get a 2nd but it depends on how they qualify anyways (are they rookie extension max, super max, etc). We could get to 1 with Booker waiting. I am not sure we can get to even 1 if Book doesn't wait and the FO acts as expected this offseason. I am not somebody who would be happy giving up a max worthy guy in next year's class for some combination of an Aaron Gordon and a middling vet PG like Marcus Smart.

It's just going to be hard to get to that one max slot in 19. Booker is this franchise and if he wants that extension that is more important than a slim shot at a max level player. If he doesnt care and agrees to wait then yeah, dont sacrifice a dime of 2019 cap space. That should be something that is settled. He is getting the $156 mil.

Also, are you sure Booker can sign the same extension after the 2018-2019 season begins? The rule states "From the end of the July Moratorium to the day before the start of the regular season preceding the player's last option season." Is the final bvb year an option year? Does the qualifying offer classify as an option and is that a players last option year? Or is bookers last option year 2018-2019? In which case he has to sign his extension this summer.

On other words it may not be a question of what Booker wants to do. Its is a question of if the suns will pay him that amount of money or wait to match/sign a four year deal for less money in the summer of 2019.

[Frank Lee]

Id trade Dudley just for that grand standing tweet. Not only content in packing his mouth, he’s running it now

[AtheJ415]

I agree, but the point is we just have to wait and see what the FO does. My guess is they give him the extension. I don't know if you have worked through numbers but if we sign anyone this summer past one year that kills any possibility of a near 2nd max guy in 19...not even sure we could get near second max anyway without somehow discarding players that are still under contract for zero salaries taken back..guys like Chriss and Bender, and I don't think that is what you want to do.

If we give him an extension AND don't sign anyone past one year, we can maybe get near one max in 19 bu that would require stretching Knight (or trading him for nothing which would open a lot more but would cost a likely first round pick) or shedding a few guys like Chriss/Bender/Warren for no salary return...all of this is difficult without many teams having cap space.

I like your ideals but we simply have to observe what the FO will do and my guess is we will end up not having much for money in 19. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but we will see.

I specifically said 1 max and a 2nd near max. It would be tougher to get a 2nd but it depends on how they qualify anyways (are they rookie extension max, super max, etc). We could get to 1 with Booker waiting. I am not sure we can get to even 1 if Book doesn't wait and the FO acts as expected this offseason. I am not somebody who would be happy giving up a max worthy guy in next year's class for some combination of an Aaron Gordon and a middling vet PG like Marcus Smart.

I worked out the cap once if Booker extends and at that point we could have maybe gotten to $20 million or so if we stretch Knight and let all non guaranteed guys go and don't sign anyone past one year. But that was based on like the 4th pick and 16th pick at the time, so moving those picks to 1 and 10 it will eat into it. The only way to build it back up (I only left core players on calculation) would be to dump or not pick up team options on Chriss or Bender or trade a guy like Warren for no incoming salary. Just off the top of my head, if he extends, we will likely be at like $15 million with no new contracts that extend more than one year this offseason and getting rid of all guys that are not guaranteed. I just have a feel McD is going to give him that extension and sign a guy longer than a year leaving us with little to nothing next year.

I do agree about what we SHOULD do though.

McD is just too much under the gun so he said he will make moves..if he signs one year deals and convinces Booker to wait that would be a very astute move, but I don't expect it.

I've seen a calculation on another board where we could get to $43 million if we don't extend Booker until next year, dump Knight, and get rid of one of Chriss/Bender. Alternatively if we couldn't dump Knight we could dump Warren and the other of Chriss/Bender, which I would prefer not to do but it depends on who the max guy is. Point being though, we don't need to make any of these moves regarding Chriss or Bender until we get the FA commitment from the guy in question, at which point we could determine if it is worthwhile.

[AtheJ415]

I agree, but the point is we just have to wait and see what the FO does. My guess is they give him the extension. I don't know if you have worked through numbers but if we sign anyone this summer past one year that kills any possibility of a near 2nd max guy in 19...not even sure we could get near second max anyway without somehow discarding players that are still under contract for zero salaries taken back..guys like Chriss and Bender, and I don't think that is what you want to do.

If we give him an extension AND don't sign anyone past one year, we can maybe get near one max in 19 bu that would require stretching Knight (or trading him for nothing which would open a lot more but would cost a likely first round pick) or shedding a few guys like Chriss/Bender/Warren for no salary return...all of this is difficult without many teams having cap space.

I like your ideals but we simply have to observe what the FO will do and my guess is we will end up not having much for money in 19. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but we will see.

I specifically said 1 max and a 2nd near max. It would be tougher to get a 2nd but it depends on how they qualify anyways (are they rookie extension max, super max, etc). We could get to 1 with Booker waiting. I am not sure we can get to even 1 if Book doesn't wait and the FO acts as expected this offseason. I am not somebody who would be happy giving up a max worthy guy in next year's class for some combination of an Aaron Gordon and a middling vet PG like Marcus Smart.

It's just going to be hard to get to that one max slot in 19. Booker is this franchise and if he wants that extension that is more important than a slim shot at a max level player. If he doesnt care and agrees to wait then yeah, dont sacrifice a dime of 2019 cap space. That should be something that is settled. He is getting the $156 mil.

Also, are you sure Booker can sign the same extension after the 2018-2019 season begins? The rule states "From the end of the July Moratorium to the day before the start of the regular season preceding the player's last option season." Is the final bvb year an option year? Does the qualifying offer classify as an option and is that a players last option year? Or is bookers last option year 2018-2019? In which case he has to sign his extension this summer.

On other words it may not be a question of what Booker wants to do. Its is a question of if the suns will pay him that amount of money or wait to match/sign a four year deal for less money in the summer of 2019.

I am 100% sure Booker can get the same money but not sure the ins and outs of the CBA's writing. It could be that it wouldn't be termed an extension at that point relative to a new contract since he would be out of his 4 year deal at that point, which is why it is written that way. We would tender the QO and he would hit RFA, but we can then just immediately offer him a max contract, and he can accept. Money is the same as a max extension. Really this comes down to Booker trusting us.

We don't want to match a deal. That is what screwed Utah with Hayward, where they just said "we'll match a max and maybe he doesn't get one and we can get less". He signed a deal with a player option then left a year early. We want to make it damn clear to Booker that we will give him the full max if he puts it off and then offer him that immediately.

[PerkinsFor3]

Would something revolving around Patbev for Alan Williams make sense? Bet the Clips would love to get some rebounding.

[Revived]

Bev makes the most sense for a team in our position, but since they just traded Rivers, I think the odds of them dealing him are much smaller. Though since Deandre is likely moved maybe they bring another guard in the trade and will move Bev.

They just drafted two guards in the lottery and will probably just build with them and start them.

Yeah I'm not sure how much appetite they have to move Bev, especially for cents on the dollar which is what we're hoping to get him for. He would be ideal though. He's a guy like PJ who'll play hard during games and in practice and will push our guards and even our wings.

I’d give up an unprotected 2020 2nd rd pick for him. Maybe they’ll want Sauce since their looking to part with DAJ.

[thamadkant]

that means a lot and is why PJ Tucker is currently making about 8x that of Michael Beasley

It does. Winning makes players play harder ... It should not have to be that way but sadly that's what happens.

But my point is Van Vleet is not my ideal PG...

I rather someone cranked up defensively like Smart... Or someone who can be versatile like Exum.... Or someone who can do a bit of shooting and defending like Beverly.



Van Vleet is someone who is 3rd string on teams with good guards... He's not even better than Mills. Advance stats or not... I don't think he's worth chasing as a rotation PG.

He is drastically better than Mills. It is beyond obvious you either didn't watch him play this year or simply don't care to look at anything but the raw stats. I can agree that he's not the ideal PG. Ideally we'd be working out a trade for Damian Lillard or Steph Curry, but he is a much better option than Smart and arguably even Bev.

And the stats do matter. They, along with viewing him play, explain how good he played last season. You just want to ignore them entirely, which is fine, but just know that Van Vleet was better last year than every player you listed, including Smart, Bev, and Mills.

You like Van Vleet good on you.


I like Mills better since I've seen enough of Mills performing well. While my last visions of Van Vleet was him missing open looks from 3pt against Cavs.



Its YOUR opinion that he's better... Those are not facts. Everyone can have good seasons and bad seasons so using someone's best season against someone else's bad season doesn't make them better.... You think he's better good on you.

But I don't really like what I've seen from Vleet...


I've seen a lot of good things from Beverly, Smart and Mills in multiple seasons....

Good on Vleet for having a good season.

[thamadkant]

Exum Or Brogdon... For my multi-year targets...
Even Smart... If he accepts 9 or 10 million a year with team option on year 3 or something.



Pat Beverly for 1 year would be okay to see if his knees are good to go for multiple years.

[AtheJ415]

From my calculations, if Phoenix renounces all cap holds except Booker next offseason, we are looking at $66.37 million:

Knight: 15.6 mil
Warren: 10.8 mil (and isn't it a bit weird Warren's deal dips in this offseason? I think the FO knew that when it offered it to him).
Jackson: 7 mil
Bender 5.8 mil
Chriss: 4.07 mil
Reed (if kept 1.6 mil)
Ulis: 1.6 mil
Shaq: 1.6 mil
Williams: 5.5 mil

Ayton: 7.9 mil
Bridges: 3.4 mil
Okobo: 1.5 mil

If we renounce some of these guys now (Williams I think is likely, so that removes 5.5), and 2 of Reed, Ulis, and Shaq, that adds another 3.2, for 8.7 million additional saved, bringing the total to 66.37-5.5, or 60.87 million.

$60.87 million with a projected cap of $108 million, meaning we are looking at $48 million roughly at that point. A rookie max will be about $28 million IIRC, so we are just shy of 2 of those and could stretch or trade Knight to make that happen. We could also trade Warren.

Or we could trade Warren who holds value in the league so shouldn't require a dump off, and then attach picks to move Knight early (not ideal, but it is if it gets us to an additional max), but move both. That would lead to $26.4 additional million, bringing our cap space to $74.4 million, enough for 1 full supermax and 1 additional really close to full supermax or rookie max.

It's not as hard as it seems. Knight is the only trouble spot and if he plays better next year we might be able to trade him as a then expiring or we could stretch him. Really just not keeping the nonessential guards aside from 1 and then, once FA hits have a deal lined up for Warren and Knight so you know what it would cost to move them. Don't move either until you have the agreement with the FA target. I think a team would want Warren and would deal a pick for him. Knight will probably cost multiple picks but that could be worth it frankly.

[jredsaz]

I specifically said 1 max and a 2nd near max. It would be tougher to get a 2nd but it depends on how they qualify anyways (are they rookie extension max, super max, etc). We could get to 1 with Booker waiting. I am not sure we can get to even 1 if Book doesn't wait and the FO acts as expected this offseason. I am not somebody who would be happy giving up a max worthy guy in next year's class for some combination of an Aaron Gordon and a middling vet PG like Marcus Smart.

It's just going to be hard to get to that one max slot in 19. Booker is this franchise and if he wants that extension that is more important than a slim shot at a max level player. If he doesnt care and agrees to wait then yeah, dont sacrifice a dime of 2019 cap space. That should be something that is settled. He is getting the $156 mil.

Also, are you sure Booker can sign the same extension after the 2018-2019 season begins? The rule states "From the end of the July Moratorium to the day before the start of the regular season preceding the player's last option season." Is the final bvb year an option year? Does the qualifying offer classify as an option and is that a players last option year? Or is bookers last option year 2018-2019? In which case he has to sign his extension this summer.

On other words it may not be a question of what Booker wants to do. Its is a question of if the suns will pay him that amount of money or wait to match/sign a four year deal for less money in the summer of 2019.

I am 100% sure Booker can get the same money but not sure the ins and outs of the CBA's writing. It could be that it wouldn't be termed an extension at that point relative to a new contract since he would be out of his 4 year deal at that point, which is why it is written that way. We would tender the QO and he would hit RFA, but we can then just immediately offer him a max contract, and he can accept. Money is the same as a max extension. Really this comes down to Booker trusting us.

We don't want to match a deal. That is what screwed Utah with Hayward, where they just said "we'll match a max and maybe he doesn't get one and we can get less". He signed a deal with a player option then left a year early. We want to make it damn clear to Booker that we will give him the full max if he puts it off and then offer him that immediately.

You're right. His bird rights can pay him the same thing. What about my point regarding his extension. Dont you think the FO knows where he stands on the issue and will act accordingly? Or you think it's still up in the air?

[jredsaz]

From my calculations, if Phoenix renounces all cap holds except Booker next offseason, we are looking at $66.37 million:

Knight: 15.6 mil
Warren: 10.8 mil (and isn't it a bit weird Warren's deal dips in this offseason? I think the FO knew that when it offered it to him).
Jackson: 7 mil
Bender 5.8 mil
Chriss: 4.07 mil
Reed (if kept 1.6 mil)
Ulis: 1.6 mil
Shaq: 1.6 mil
Williams: 5.5 mil

Ayton: 7.9 mil
Bridges: 3.4 mil
Okobo: 1.5 mil

If we renounce some of these guys now (Williams I think is likely, so that removes 5.5), and 2 of Reed, Ulis, and Shaq, that adds another 3.2, for 8.7 million additional saved, bringing the total to 66.37-5.5, or 60.87 million.

$60.87 million with a projected cap of $108 million, meaning we are looking at $48 million roughly at that point. A rookie max will be about $28 million IIRC, so we are just shy of 2 of those and could stretch or trade Knight to make that happen. We could also trade Warren.

Or we could trade Warren who holds value in the league so shouldn't require a dump off, and then attach picks to move Knight early (not ideal, but it is if it gets us to an additional max), but move both. That would lead to $26.4 additional million, bringing our cap space to $74.4 million, enough for 1 full supermax and 1 additional really close to full supermax or rookie max.

It's not as hard as it seems. Knight is the only trouble spot and if he plays better next year we might be able to trade him as a then expiring or we could stretch him. Really just not keeping the nonessential guards aside from 1 and then, once FA hits have a deal lined up for Warren and Knight so you know what it would cost to move them. Don't move either until you have the agreement with the FA target. I think a team would want Warren and would deal a pick for him. Knight will probably cost multiple picks but that could be worth it frankly.

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=6985687425b332d303089c111486009

Here is a shams with your moves applied. Leaves just under $30 mil in space. Where did I go wrong?

[AtheJ415]

It does. Winning makes players play harder ... It should not have to be that way but sadly that's what happens.

But my point is Van Vleet is not my ideal PG...

I rather someone cranked up defensively like Smart... Or someone who can be versatile like Exum.... Or someone who can do a bit of shooting and defending like Beverly.



Van Vleet is someone who is 3rd string on teams with good guards... He's not even better than Mills. Advance stats or not... I don't think he's worth chasing as a rotation PG.

He is drastically better than Mills. It is beyond obvious you either didn't watch him play this year or simply don't care to look at anything but the raw stats. I can agree that he's not the ideal PG. Ideally we'd be working out a trade for Damian Lillard or Steph Curry, but he is a much better option than Smart and arguably even Bev.

And the stats do matter. They, along with viewing him play, explain how good he played last season. You just want to ignore them entirely, which is fine, but just know that Van Vleet was better last year than every player you listed, including Smart, Bev, and Mills.

You like Van Vleet good on you.


I like Mills better since I've seen enough of Mills performing well. While my last visions of Van Vleet was him missing open looks from 3pt against Cavs.



Its YOUR opinion that he's better... Those are not facts. Everyone can have good seasons and bad seasons so using someone's best season against someone else's bad season doesn't make them better.... You think he's better good on you.

But I don't really like what I've seen from Vleet...


I've seen a lot of good things from Beverly, Smart and Mills in multiple seasons....

Good on Vleet for having a good season.

Okay, so to clarify Van Vleet has only been in the league for 1.5 seasons, so what else should I judge him on?

Congrats on making a point about my "opinion" by citing no facts aside from your own opinions and feelings. There is not a number you can look at with respect to Mills and Van Vleet that would suggest he was better this year.

I've seen Smart be the worst shooting PG in about 30 years while defending only marginally better than Van Vleet, a CAREER 40% 3 point shooter.

What you are seeing is wrong if you honestly think Van Vleet wasn't really good this year. He nearly won 6th man of the year. Was Mills up for that award?

And it's funny you mention playoffs because I saw Marcus Smart clutch defeat from the jaws of victory by shooting 32% from the field in the last 5 cavs games, including 64.3% from the FT line, and going 1-10 from the field and 0-4 from 3 with 50% ft shooting in a decisive game 7 with 4 points. This despite having the best coach in the league and a much better supporting cast around him than the Cavs.

Smart is a CAREER 9, 3.9, and 3.7 guy and people talk about him as if he's god's gift to basketball. His PER is 10.83 and he is one of the, I kid you not, one of the worst statistical shooters of the entire modern era of NBA basketball. He is a great defender, but BARELY better than Van Vleet on that end, while being wildly worse than every other PG in basketball on the offensive end.

[TOO]

Smart can guard 3 positions, VanVleet can guard 1, Smart is significantly more useful defensively than VanVleet. I don't want either of them though.

[carey]

Is VanVleet really a good defender? Is he a good on-ball defender, team defender or both? Or was he merely elevated by the play of his teammates?

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

He is drastically better than Mills. It is beyond obvious you either didn't watch him play this year or simply don't care to look at anything but the raw stats. I can agree that he's not the ideal PG. Ideally we'd be working out a trade for Damian Lillard or Steph Curry, but he is a much better option than Smart and arguably even Bev.

And the stats do matter. They, along with viewing him play, explain how good he played last season. You just want to ignore them entirely, which is fine, but just know that Van Vleet was better last year than every player you listed, including Smart, Bev, and Mills.

You like Van Vleet good on you.


I like Mills better since I've seen enough of Mills performing well. While my last visions of Van Vleet was him missing open looks from 3pt against Cavs.



Its YOUR opinion that he's better... Those are not facts. Everyone can have good seasons and bad seasons so using someone's best season against someone else's bad season doesn't make them better.... You think he's better good on you.

But I don't really like what I've seen from Vleet...


I've seen a lot of good things from Beverly, Smart and Mills in multiple seasons....

Good on Vleet for having a good season.

Okay, so to clarify Van Vleet has only been in the league for 1.5 seasons, so what else should I judge him on?

Congrats on making a point about my "opinion" by citing no facts aside from your own opinions and feelings. There is not a number you can look at with respect to Mills and Van Vleet that would suggest he was better this year.

I've seen Smart be the worst shooting PG in about 30 years while defending only marginally better than Van Vleet, a CAREER 40% 3 point shooter.

What you are seeing is wrong if you honestly think Van Vleet wasn't really good this year. He nearly won 6th man of the year. Was Mills up for that award?

And it's funny you mention playoffs because I saw Marcus Smart clutch defeat from the jaws of victory by shooting 32% from the field in the last 5 cavs games, including 64.3% from the FT line, and going 1-10 from the field and 0-4 from 3 with 50% ft shooting in a decisive game 7 with 4 points. This despite having the best coach in the league and a much better supporting cast around him than the Cavs.

Smart is a CAREER 9, 3.9, and 3.7 guy and people talk about him as if he's god's gift to basketball. His PER is 10.83 and he is one of the, I kid you not, one of the worst statistical shooters of the entire modern era of NBA basketball. He is a great defender, but BARELY better than Van Vleet on that end, while being wildly worse than every other PG in basketball on the offensive end.

He was also critical to Boston's playoff success, fwiw... which is probably closer to $14 million than $12 million, I would think.

I'm not interested in Pat Bev or Exum. If there's one thing we absolutely need from a PG, it's reliability. Screw upside. Give me a guy who will play basketball games, please.

[lilfishi22]

How about we just give Tyreke Evans some money and have him be our 6-6 220lb PG?

[timetoshinebaby]

I can't believe the number of average players mentioned here. A way to a championship is not through recruiting average players who clog your cap and take time off young players.

I like some of the ideas but we really shouldn't be recruiting players just because. I think we are going to trade. I just don't see the quality in the FA crop that we can realistically get. There isn't a lot of FA that suit the Suns.

Even Chandler, Dudley etc why would we keep them? Dudley is a great role model at getting out of shape and I don't think Tyson wants to be here. Trade or buy out. Get enthusiastic guys that will work hard and are team guys i.e. Alan Williams.

I can see the Suns throwing contracts at someone such as Gordon at a lowish price as if it comes off, it's great. If not go the trade route.

[AtheJ415]

From my calculations, if Phoenix renounces all cap holds except Booker next offseason, we are looking at $66.37 million:

Knight: 15.6 mil
Warren: 10.8 mil (and isn't it a bit weird Warren's deal dips in this offseason? I think the FO knew that when it offered it to him).
Jackson: 7 mil
Bender 5.8 mil
Chriss: 4.07 mil
Reed (if kept 1.6 mil)
Ulis: 1.6 mil
Shaq: 1.6 mil
Williams: 5.5 mil

Ayton: 7.9 mil
Bridges: 3.4 mil
Okobo: 1.5 mil

If we renounce some of these guys now (Williams I think is likely, so that removes 5.5), and 2 of Reed, Ulis, and Shaq, that adds another 3.2, for 8.7 million additional saved, bringing the total to 66.37-5.5, or 60.87 million.

$60.87 million with a projected cap of $108 million, meaning we are looking at $48 million roughly at that point. A rookie max will be about $28 million IIRC, so we are just shy of 2 of those and could stretch or trade Knight to make that happen. We could also trade Warren.

Or we could trade Warren who holds value in the league so shouldn't require a dump off, and then attach picks to move Knight early (not ideal, but it is if it gets us to an additional max), but move both. That would lead to $26.4 additional million, bringing our cap space to $74.4 million, enough for 1 full supermax and 1 additional really close to full supermax or rookie max.

It's not as hard as it seems. Knight is the only trouble spot and if he plays better next year we might be able to trade him as a then expiring or we could stretch him. Really just not keeping the nonessential guards aside from 1 and then, once FA hits have a deal lined up for Warren and Knight so you know what it would cost to move them. Don't move either until you have the agreement with the FA target. I think a team would want Warren and would deal a pick for him. Knight will probably cost multiple picks but that could be worth it frankly.

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=6985687425b332d303089c111486009

Here is a shams with your moves applied. Leaves just under $30 mil in space. Where did I go wrong?

I think it is the giant cap hold for our first rounder in 2019-2020. I am at $70 mil right now (so $38 mill of cap room with Book's hold and without the non-guaranteeds and with renouncing Chandler, Dudley, and everyone other than our core plus Davon Reed basically). They have Ayton and Bridges a bit higher than mine, which is probably right since I was just using the numbers from a quick google search for their draft slots.

[PhxLax]

---> Is this realistic? Would Clippers do it? Solves the need for PG and PF while unloading a lot of the clog on the depth you guys talk about. http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yb43xja4

[AtheJ415]

You like Van Vleet good on you.


I like Mills better since I've seen enough of Mills performing well. While my last visions of Van Vleet was him missing open looks from 3pt against Cavs.



Its YOUR opinion that he's better... Those are not facts. Everyone can have good seasons and bad seasons so using someone's best season against someone else's bad season doesn't make them better.... You think he's better good on you.

But I don't really like what I've seen from Vleet...


I've seen a lot of good things from Beverly, Smart and Mills in multiple seasons....

Good on Vleet for having a good season.

Okay, so to clarify Van Vleet has only been in the league for 1.5 seasons, so what else should I judge him on?

Congrats on making a point about my "opinion" by citing no facts aside from your own opinions and feelings. There is not a number you can look at with respect to Mills and Van Vleet that would suggest he was better this year.

I've seen Smart be the worst shooting PG in about 30 years while defending only marginally better than Van Vleet, a CAREER 40% 3 point shooter.

What you are seeing is wrong if you honestly think Van Vleet wasn't really good this year. He nearly won 6th man of the year. Was Mills up for that award?

And it's funny you mention playoffs because I saw Marcus Smart clutch defeat from the jaws of victory by shooting 32% from the field in the last 5 cavs games, including 64.3% from the FT line, and going 1-10 from the field and 0-4 from 3 with 50% ft shooting in a decisive game 7 with 4 points. This despite having the best coach in the league and a much better supporting cast around him than the Cavs.

Smart is a CAREER 9, 3.9, and 3.7 guy and people talk about him as if he's god's gift to basketball. His PER is 10.83 and he is one of the, I kid you not, one of the worst statistical shooters of the entire modern era of NBA basketball. He is a great defender, but BARELY better than Van Vleet on that end, while being wildly worse than every other PG in basketball on the offensive end.

He was also critical to Boston's playoff success, fwiw... which is probably closer to $14 million than $12 million, I would think.

I'm not interested in Pat Bev or Exum. If there's one thing we absolutely need from a PG, it's reliability. Screw upside. Give me a guy who will play basketball games, please.

How was Smart critical to their playoff success? Because he plays intense defense? If that's the case I can argue for tons of other guys who do that. I get that he's a good, and even great defender. But he is such a bad offensive player that he is a net neutral overall according to the stats and that is despite playing for a coach that no other role player has left and been better off. IT looked like an MVP candidate there and left and now might not be a starting PG next year. Jay freaking Crowder looked like an all-star there and is now the 7th or 8th best player on his team. Kelly Olynyk was decent in Boston and is still probably somewhat decent in Miami but still not worth his contract. Avery Bradley looked like an all nba defender and good shooter there and is now likely to get a small deal because he has been so awful leaving.

Their coach hides their weaknesses better than any in modern NBA history and Marcus Smart's is still ridiculously glaring. That ought to scare the living daylights out of everybody here. I'd rather trade for PJ Tucker and just run him at point even though he can't dribble because he at least is a passable shooter now and is as good defensively.