Zach Lavine: Offered 4/80 from Kings update p26 Bulls Matched

[TheSuzerain]

Somebody last season made the Gerald Green - Lavine comparison and was torn to shreds.

But it’s rather reasonable.

[Andi Obst]

I wanted Zach back, but I'm not happy with the numbers. It is what it is, though. Zach needs to improve A LOT and I'll be rooting for him to do it.

[Betta Bulleavit]

I don't care about the money one way or the other as long as we are able to clear enough cap space to sign two max free agents in a year or two. By that time, hopefully we have a decent young core centered around Lauri, Dunn, Carter and possibly Lavine/Portis/Hutch. Having a nice group of young talent plus having the ability to tell a free agent- "come here and bring whoever you want with you" could be a good enough sales pitch to lure some Tier 1 players here. And then we'd be in business.

I keep trying to explain this to people. But regardless of how much cap space we free up, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that we are going to get two superstars. What would likely happen is that we’d go for two and then overspend in second tier guys when we strike out. One might be a good possibility IF we can show good progression with our current roster.

[DrCoach]

Reminds me of early OJ Mayo


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[Betta Bulleavit]

Somebody last season made the Gerald Green - Lavine comparison and was torn to shreds.

But it’s rather reasonable.

Except that Lavine is noted as having a very strong work ethic. Better than most of his counterparts actually. But it hasn’t translated in the stats so it’s often disregarded since that’s not quantifiable data.

[TheSuzerain]

Somebody last season made the Gerald Green - Lavine comparison and was torn to shreds.

But it’s rather reasonable.

Except that Lavine is noted as having a very strong work ethic. Better than most of his counterparts actually. But it hasn’t translated in the stats so it’s often disregarded since that’s not quantifiable data.

Lavine is indeed very good at working out with his dad and posting those workouts on instagram.

[Truebiscuit]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5k4s2j/after_last_nights_40_point_game_zach_lavine_is/

[Betta Bulleavit]

Somebody last season made the Gerald Green - Lavine comparison and was torn to shreds.

But it’s rather reasonable.

Except that Lavine is noted as having a very strong work ethic. Better than most of his counterparts actually. But it hasn’t translated in the stats so it’s often disregarded since that’s not quantifiable data.

Lavine is indeed very good at working out with his dad and posting those workouts on instagram.

No, he just has a very strong work ethic period. Former teammates and coaches have all spoken to that including Thibs. So you are going to have to take your biases in a different direction on that.

[MrSparkle]

If Zach has a follow-up injury, then you severely hurt the possibility of adding great FA talent to rookie-scale Lauri and Wendell, assuming they prove to be a very good front-court. Just gonna be $20m on the cap.

Pretty high risk. For a “low-risk, play it safe” organization, I’m always taken aback by the times where they do take the risk. Felicio. This Zach deal. And no plan to tank? Meh.

[Ugly Duckling]

For those of you still salty about this, I have LaVine as the 11th best SG in the league after Harden, Thompson, Oladipo, DeRozan, Holiday, McCollum, Beal, Harris, Booker, Mitchell and Brown. He's making less than the worst of these players not on the rookie scale (aside from Thompson who signed before the landscape changed and is about to get paid)

[danzou]

For those of you still salty about this, I have LaVine as the 11th best SG in the league after Harden, Thompson, Oladipo, DeRozan, Holiday, McCollum, Beal, Harris, Booker, Mitchell and Brown. He's making less than the worst of these players not on the rookie scale (aside from Thompson who signed before the landscape changed and is about to get paid)

Eric Gordon, Jimmy Butler, Barton, Hield, Bogdnovic(Sac), THJ, Redick, Fournier, Josh Richardson, and Middleton are all better than Lavine. All those guys make less, some considerably less.

[League Circles]

Yep, I totally agree. But if this thread has done one thing it's given the FO haters a platform and a chance to fully reveal themselves.

Except that I'm notorious here as one of the biggest FO supporters/apologists. I just can't justify this move.

You have been a notorious FO supporter and I have to acknowledge that. But it’s for that reason that I’m shocked that you can’t see the logic behind the move. I totally get why it would make some people nervous given the stats and the injury etc. But whether people recognize or not, Zach is a very unique proposition given all circumstances involved. So even if you aren’t sure about the decision, we know that this is a front office that knows when it’s time to let guys go. They knew with Gordon. They knew with Noah and Rose. Deng. If they saw fit to match, we can conclude that there was a reason why. Even if it’s not necessarily apparent to all of us.

The reasoning is clear to me. I'm not confused on why they did it. I just think it's poor judgement. I would have offered him more money, possibly the max, but only for one year with team option or non guarantee on year 2. And it's possible he may have taken that instead of signing this offer sheet.

It's not stats or injury that concerns me. He looked healthy and I think stats are generally over focused on by people. It's that I start from a position of all players being average or worse, and then only elevate them based on actually impressed. He hasn't impressed me in his career. I see an above average but not great shooter with great athleticism that he doesn't use to impact winning. I don't see him pressure the opposing defense much. I see him as having very poor awareness and instincts on both sides of the ball. Those guys basically never become great IMO. That said, it's possible in time he'll improve enough in those areas to not be a terrible contract.

I just see this as giving a guy I see as our 4th most talented player way too big of a commitment way too early in our rebuild.

I also disagree on them knowing when to get rid of guys. Noah should have been traded years before he expired IMO. Rose traded too early IMO, Jimmy and Tyson Chandler too, etc.

[waffle]

. I think the Bulls knew they were going to sign him
. I think they were surprised Sac made the offer
. Without the offer one wonders how the negotiations would have gone? Badly I bet

I suspect this is just about how the FO thought things were going to go. Now lets see if their evaluation of Z is right.

[Red Larrivee]

If Zach has a follow-up injury, then you severely hurt the possibility of adding great FA talent to rookie-scale Lauri and Wendell, assuming they prove to be a very good front-court. Just gonna be $20m on the cap.

Pretty high risk. For a “low-risk, play it safe” organization, I’m always taken aback by the times where they do take the risk. Felicio. This Zach deal. And no plan to tank? Meh.

Apparently there's an out or some significant protection in the contract for this scenario.

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[Betta Bulleavit]

For those of you still salty about this, I have LaVine as the 11th best SG in the league after Harden, Thompson, Oladipo, DeRozan, Holiday, McCollum, Beal, Harris, Booker, Mitchell and Brown. He's making less than the worst of these players not on the rookie scale (aside from Thompson who signed before the landscape changed and is about to get paid)

Eric Gordon, Jimmy Butler, Barton, Hield, Bogdnovic(Sac), THJ, Redick, Fournier, Josh Richardson, and Middleton are all better than Lavine. All those guys make less, some considerably less.

Eh, you’d have to stay tuned on some of those guys and he specifically called out SGs rather than wings. That said, Butler is going to get a huge deal next season. THJ is pretty much on par with Lavine both skill and salary wise. Hield and Bogdanovic are both still on rookie deals and thus, can’t really be compared. And there are a couple of guys that I just outright question whether or not they are “better” than Lavine stats be damned (Fournier, Richardson).

[TheStig]

I'm curious, what is the injury clause? Anyone know?

[BigUps]

Woj said it was a flat $19.5 across the contract, but I've also read it's front loaded. Anyone know for sure? If it's front loaded I'll be very happy.

[Ugly Duckling]

For those of you still salty about this, I have LaVine as the 11th best SG in the league after Harden, Thompson, Oladipo, DeRozan, Holiday, McCollum, Beal, Harris, Booker, Mitchell and Brown. He's making less than the worst of these players not on the rookie scale (aside from Thompson who signed before the landscape changed and is about to get paid)

Eric Gordon, Jimmy Butler, Barton, Hield, Bogdnovic(Sac), THJ, Redick, Fournier, Josh Richardson, and Middleton are all better than Lavine. All those guys make less, some considerably less.

I was looking at this depth chart to make this case http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/depth-charts/nba.aspx

Butler, Middleton, Fournier and Richardson are all listed as SF. Butler and Middleton are definitely better, but I don't think Fournier or Richardson are

Gordon, Barton and Hield aren't listed as starters, but I don't have any of them nor Bogdanovic or Redick above LaVine anyway. Don't know who THJ is.. Terrance Howard Jr.?

Not a perfect argument, but what is?

[Betta Bulleavit]

Except that I'm notorious here as one of the biggest FO supporters/apologists. I just can't justify this move.

You have been a notorious FO supporter and I have to acknowledge that. But it’s for that reason that I’m shocked that you can’t see the logic behind the move. I totally get why it would make some people nervous given the stats and the injury etc. But whether people recognize or not, Zach is a very unique proposition given all circumstances involved. So even if you aren’t sure about the decision, we know that this is a front office that knows when it’s time to let guys go. They knew with Gordon. They knew with Noah and Rose. Deng. If they saw fit to match, we can conclude that there was a reason why. Even if it’s not necessarily apparent to all of us.

The reasoning is clear to me. I'm not confused on why they did it. I just think it's poor judgement. I would have offered him more money, possibly the max, but only for one year with team option or non guarantee on year 2. And it's possible he may have taken that instead of signing this offer sheet.

It's not stats or injury that concerns me. He looked healthy and I think stats are generally over focused on by people. It's that I start from a position of all players being average or worse, and then only elevate them based on actually impressed. He hasn't impressed me in his career. I see an above average but not great shooter with great athleticism that he doesn't use to impact winning. I don't see him pressure the opposing defense much. I see him as having very poor awareness and instincts on both sides of the ball. Those guys basically never become great IMO. That said, it's possible in time he'll improve enough in those areas to not be a terrible contract.

I just see this as giving a guy I see as our 4th most talented player way too big of a commitment way too early in our rebuild.

I also disagree on them knowing when to get rid of guys. Noah should have been traded years before he expired IMO. Rose traded too early IMO, Jimmy and Tyson Chandler too, etc.

Noah was the glue to this team prior to the last year of his contract. Rose was traded with one year left in his deal. You could argue the Jimmy and Tyson trades either way in terms of timing. My point though is that this FO has demonstrated enough times that they can and will walk away from guys that they don’t feel can be positive contributors to their plans.

[NecessaryEvil]

Woj said it was a flat $19.5 across the contract, but I've also read it's front loaded. Anyone know for sure? If it's front loaded I'll be very happy.

Woj knows for sure